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Likely an old question, as the subject line asks. The text says you can cast to escape. Does that include Remove Fear?
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Quit trying to weasel out of the effect.
A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Casting remove fear does not allow you to flee faster. Casting teleport, dimension door, fly, or even expeditious retreat does. There is no mechanic for making ability checks to overcome the condition. That's what the Will save is for.
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By casting remove fear you are moving at half speed at the maximum (can't take double move or run). This is not fleeing faster. Trying to justify it as a 'long term escape plan' is twisting the words.
Besides, I can twist it straight back at you. By casting remove fear, a rational character knows they will likely stop running, because they will no longer fear the creature. This is DEFINITELY not helping him/her escape faster!
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You are actually conveniently forgetting an important part of being panicked. When you are escaping, you take a random path, there is no clear thinking like that. Even if you go into a maze, you will take whatever path as long as you are far as away as possible from the source of the fear. Getting lost in the maze is not part of your concerns when you are panicked.
Now if you DM allows it, good for him, but the random path mentioned in the panicked condition is clearly there to avoid these kind of situations.
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Escape means 'get away from the source of the fear', not 'stop being afraid'. Definitely unambiguous; you cannot cast Remove Fear while panicked.
One more vote for no casting remove fear. Next suggestion May be some one saying i want to stand and figth when i am paniked, because it Will be safer to get away when the fear causer is death.
So No.
Also speaking as someone that have been irrational with fear. You dont exactly Think of the fear as the problem.
+1 to not casting remove fear. Panicked is the very definition of not being able to think clearly enough to cast remove fear. Literally all you can think about is getting away.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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E. It'll suppress other fear-based effects aside from panicked--e.g. a mummy's paralyzing despair aura. I've put remove fear too good use in Mummy's Mask keeping my allies from getting coup de grace'd on a few occasions.
Plus, since it still works pretty well at CL1, it makes for great scroll-bait.
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You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
No casting remove fear:
If your unable to think clearly to run through a maze, how are you thinking clearly enough to think to cast remove fear?
Literally all you can think about is getting away.EtcIf you can't think clearly enough to want to Remove Fear how do you know you are making the fastest possible escape?
Remember the second post on this thread:
As they clearly state in the panicked conditions, you cast spells or use special abilities if they allow you to escape faster.By your argument the PCs must not know what actually allows them to escape faster. They may as well run in circles (or stick their heads in the sand or wear a bag over their heads...
Panicked PC thinking
1) I need to get away NOW
2) The only way out I know of is through the maze we came in through
3) That maze was confusing when I could take my time to navigate
4) I need to quell this panic if I'm going to make it out of here
5) Casts Remove Fear on self, or drinks potion to do same...I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
I might allow it if it was the situation you described with some labyrinthine maze gating the only way in or out, and you had no teleportation magic available. But more likely if you tried to argue that? I'd take your character sheet from you and control your character until the panic stopped, and it likely wouldn't involve your character using Remove Fear.
You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
And this reply applies to Bronnwynn too:
So your PC has enough wits-and-concentration to cast Haste but not enough to want to be able to get away by accurately navigating a maze facilitated by swigging a potion to 'calm his nerves'?
I might make some allowences for the "level" of Fear effect but again, I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
I wouldn't let you cast Haste unless you were being actively pursued and needed the speed advantage.
I'm not mixing up fear and confusion. I'm not even mixing up panic and confusion.
I wouldn't typically allow a casting of Remove Fear for two reasons - the first is game balance and RAI.
The second is more simulationist - you ever been completely panicked? Running for your life, if you had to s&+$ you wouldn't now level of panic? It's several things. First, it's utterly unfun - I recommend you never feel that way. Second, the only thing on your mind is things that directly get you further away or safer from the object of your fear. You *don't* think "I need to clear my mind and think rationally" - that's passing a will save, not a normal thought as part of being panicked.
Run away? Of course. That's the simplest way to get distance between you and it.
Jump over a thing to make it have to do the same, hopefully slower? Also allowable. It gets you further away and maybe slows it down.
Throw things back in it's way as you run away? Sure, if you have the feats to do it without slowing you down too much. I'd even allow you to drop caltrops or activate those boots that lay caltrops. That's directly contributing to slowing it down.
Cast a spell to teleport away? Definitely. For the low, low price of a single action, you get hundreds of feet to hundreds of miles away. I'd even be nice and say you won't continue chaining teleports away in subsequent rounds, if you teleport hundreds of miles and you know it can't follow you.
Cast a spell to speed yourself up? If you've got some distance, sure. You spend a round only moving your base speed to double your base speed, that's not a bad deal as long as the thing's not right there.
Cast a spell to clear your mind? Hah. Hah. A clear mind is the last thing on your mind.
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Someone has never been truly panicked before.
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2) The only way out I know of is through the maze we came in through
Per the panicked condition, you cannot choose to go back into the maze on this basis. Although it may be the only way that your character knows leads out, per the rules, your character flees along a random path - for example, it may well take him further into the dungeon along an unexplored path.
4) I need to quell this panic if I'm going to make it out of here
You just described the thought process of a person who passed their Will save.
Someone has never been truly panicked before.Men who have deservedly won the Congressional Medal of Honor have soiled themselves in the conduct of their "above and beyond" duty. That qualifies as Scared ******** and yet they did it.
Being afraid does not mean being confused or otherwise irrational.
If the Fear spell induces unabated spastic running away, then I refer you back to the in-game definition of "panicked" and this part of my previous post that responds to said definition:
Those portions I bolded are in DIRECT CONFLICT with each other.
Which is to say, as written, the "panicked" condition doesn't make sense. Not a lick.
Per the panicked condition, you cannot choose to go back into the maze on this basis. Although it may be the only way that your character knows leads out...My PC can cast a Haste spell without penalty that takes Verbal, Somatic, and Material components, yet he otherwise runs around in circles?
Really? I mean,
Can't we just say the RAW are a little broke here? Mainly just the description of the "panicked" condition.
You just described the thought process of a person who passed their Will save.No. Said PC is still under the effects of the Fear. Meaning she cannot choose to attack the BBEG but must instead put distance between herself and BBEG at all costs - Or - decide to burn a potion of Remove Fear to be more effective at getting away.
Which, once the potion is effective, would then allow said PC to confront the BBEG if so chosen but also allow her to effectively get out. The latter being the reason for drinking the potion, the former being a potentially useful side effect.
Again, casting a spell is a heck of a lot more involved than popping the cork and quaffing a potion. My PC can do the first [which requires exacting recall and coordinated execution of...
Why stop there? According to your logic, the PC could attack the BBEG because the fastest way to not be afraid is to remove the source of your fear!
Also, those who are "scared s+!%less" are not "panicked." Panicked people are the guys who trip when running away from zombies.
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You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
And this reply applies to Bronnwynn too:
So your PC has enough wits-and-concentration to cast Haste but not enough to want to be able to get away by accurately navigating a maze facilitated by swigging a potion to 'calm his nerves'?
I might make some allowences for the "level" of Fear effect but again, I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
No, you're confusing basic terms of the English language with what you wish worked.
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You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
And this reply applies to Bronnwynn too:
So your PC has enough wits-and-concentration to cast Haste but not enough to want to be able to get away by accurately navigating a maze facilitated by swigging a potion to 'calm his nerves'?
I might make some allowences for the "level" of Fear effect but again, I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
The book specifically says you can do X. That is why. If you want to argue the "level of coherency" then you can argue that he can cast fireball and other offensive spells to just kill whatever caused the fear condition. The reason they allow you to use "escape spells" is because your only goal is getting away. Your goal is not to remove the fear affect. It is not about being confused, but not being able to think clearly. An example is someone so afraid they can't move. They are not confused, but their mind is still not working properly.
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No, you're confusing basic terms of the English language with what you wish worked.You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
And this reply applies to Bronnwynn too:
So your PC has enough wits-and-concentration to cast Haste but not enough to want to be able to get away by accurately navigating a maze facilitated by swigging a potion to 'calm his nerves'?
I might make some allowences for the "level" of Fear effect but again, I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
So explain this then (nobody's touched it so far, especially those who seem to be in disagreement with me):
"A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."
Those portions I bolded are in direct conflict with each other.
Actually you need to bold the entire relevant section which is A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee
Now that we have bolded "to flee" we know the intent is that you can not take any other actions besides fleeing except to cast a spell that allows it to escape.Removing the fear is not going to allow you to escape.
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At most of the tables I play at feared PCs behave as if in a blind panic. Usually the players adjudicate this pretty well, with extra RP points for playing it up. For example, "I run in terror up to the intersection, screaming like a little girl. I'll roll D6. On a 1-3 I turn right, towards the exit. On a 4-6 I turn left, towards where we left the horde of ghouls."
Occasionally the GM must step in and say things like, "No, Joe, you're in a blind panic, you're not thinking clearly. You don't think to draw and drink your Potion of Remove Fear. That sort of thought and action is for someone who made their save."
I agree that the spell description is somewhat contradictory.
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No, you're confusing basic terms of the English language with what you wish worked.You do not need to cast "remove fear" to get away. If you have enough coherence to cast that spell then you would know that doing so would take you back into the fight since you would no longer be afraid. However you are afraid at the moment, and you do NOT want to go that way, so even if you have any coherent thought it should be "do not cast this spell".
You are reaching. That spell is not going to possible by the rules. Remove fear is not an "escape ability". Haste, expeditious retreat, teleport, dimension door, are all "escape abilities".
And this reply applies to Bronnwynn too:
So your PC has enough wits-and-concentration to cast Haste but not enough to want to be able to get away by accurately navigating a maze facilitated by swigging a potion to 'calm his nerves'?
I might make some allowences for the "level" of Fear effect but again, I think people on this thread are confounding Fear with Confusion.
So explain this then (nobody's touched it so far, especially those who seem to be in disagreement with me):
"A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."
Those portions I bolded are in direct conflict with each other.
Only if we use the interpretation that justifies running back to heal your downed wizard ally "so they can teleport you out".
The RAI and RAW both strongly indicate that the spell must directly G you TFO of there. They do not indicate that you must cast Fox's Cunning to get out of a maze, Dominate Monster to take control of an enemy roc so it can fly you to safety, or Teleport to send the creature chasing you miles away. That's your own intentionally insane reading.
I get what you're trying to do, but just give it up and accept that the rules don't say that any more than water breathing once said you lost the ability to breathe air.
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Silly attempt to reply :-) I give a particular example when spell casting to escape might be allowed by the text you have just quoted.
Say the victim of fear happens to be a panicked high level spellcaster with two badly broken legs, trapped in a dead end corridor.
1. Either spell requires no components, else eschew materials. E.g. Dimension Door is Verbal only.
2. Movement rate is 0. Fastest way to flee right then is to cast Dimension door. Remember, pathfinder (and all D&D) uses Vancian magic.
3. Lacking the means to escape, cornered and under attack, one is indubitably in combat. Say an escape spell was unavailable. In any combat situation, when it's your turn, you must have some action, even if it's 'I cower and scream.' Flight is not an option. The authors give the victim the benefit of the doubt in this case, allowing total defense. Total defense is basically trying to not get hit, even when you must face attacks. Forensic investigators routinely find 'defensive' injuries on assault victims, such as from interposing arms between a knife and your throat. Another option would be 'helpless', which obviously has unpleasant ramifications. Humans are wired quite strongly for 'fight or flight'.
4. If that broken-legged caster can crawl away fast enough to possibly escape, that will be done. If crawling escape is otherwise impossible, then Dimension Door becomes an option. At this juncture a kind GM might (ignore the RAW about dropping everything) even consider possibly allowing the above discussed Potion of Remove Fear, as escape is impossible. It's in our nature that, when panicked and uncertain what to do, we usually do something rather than nothing. Often it's the wrong thing, but sometimes it's the right thing. The evolutionary advantages of this characteristic should be obvious.
I guess I both agree and disagree with the argument that a panicked person could use a Potion of Remove Fear. Usually this should be completely off the table. In some rare, GM-adjudicated circumstances, it might be the obvious thing a blindly panicked person would do.
One last try here (quoting from the rules and using actual quotation marks):
"A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."
1) "A panicked creature must drop anything it holds"
So how does said creature use Material Components to cast spells? Huh?
If if creature cannot hold anything, then how can it manage the delicate work of spell Somatic Components?
2) "and flee at top speed from the source of its fear...along a random path. It can’t take any other actions..."
Except that it can and must take other actions.
For instance the taxing and delicate work of casting spells that aid escape.3) And can, when cornered, and here I quote again the official statement, use "the total defense action in combat".
Total defense action? What is that? "You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC" Oh, a coordinated (not random!) action?
Huh? I though said creature was "panicked"? And could only run away, randomly.
And if creature has dropped its weapon as it must, and so presents no tactical threat, does "total defense" even make sense?
4) "A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape"
If the creature is running in circles, sorry, along a "random path", then how does the creature know said path is a "way to escape"? huh?
If creature doesn't know the way of escape then how could it matter to said creature if a...
This is simple English so let me help you out.
1. A panicked creature can must drop anything it is holding when the spell is cast much like the stunned condition makes you drop items. It later goes on to say that the creature can cast spells with no limitation on spells with a material component so obviously those spells are allowed to be cast. This is not rocket science.
2. The intent here is for you to get as far away from the source as possible, but you run off in a random direction instead of the way that makes the most sense. It sounds like blind fear to me. Then it goes on to give you another rules exception.
3. Notice that this is when it is corned, so another exception.
4. First of all that section says ""A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape""
The word "path" is not even listed. The "path" mentioned in the first sentenced is not connected in any way to "way to escape".
Is this really that hard to understand?
Let me help you out since you seem to be lost.
The creature is to take off from its current location dropping anything that it is holding, and going in a random direction. That is all it can do barring other certain other situations.
Situation: If the creature has a way to flee(leave the area), which remove fear can not do that, then it must use that ability if it is the only way to escape. Teleport as an example.
Situation: If the creature is cornered then it can use the total defensive action.
Remove fear is not going to help you flee, nor is it going into total defense.
By your logic any ability can be use since they can help you "escape".
Dispelling magic might even work under your idea, but that is not the intent. Casting disintegrate at the attacker, using an anti-magic field, locking yourself inside of forcecage to keep anything dangerous away, using a maximized empowered fireball to kill the attacker, and so on are not means of escape. If your buddy is dying and he has an ability to teleport you to safety you can not heal him so he can help you escape. If your dying buddy has an item in his backpack that can help you teleport away you do not get to rummage through his backpack to get the item. I am sure there are more examples, but you get the point.
The rules are not perfectly written for this game, but the general idea is not hard to figure out most of the time.
I do have a gem for you however.
Panicked is listed twice in the glossary and the first listing says this:
Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want.
Once you are away from danger you may then cast remove fear.
Per the panicked condition, you cannot choose to go back into the maze on this basis. Although it may be the only way that your character knows leads out...My PC can cast a Haste spell without penalty that takes Verbal, Somatic, and Material components, yet he otherwise runs around in circles?
Really? I mean,
Can't we just say the RAW are a little broke here? Mainly just the description of the "panicked" condition.
Your sample situation still doesn't need to be considered, because you get derailed before you can arrive at the point where you argue for casting Remove Fear.
As a point of minor interest, however, it is true that when the fear rules were written, they did also penalize your checks to concentrate on spellcasting, since Concentration at that point was a skill check and not a caster level check.
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And if it were "simple English" then this thread would already be much shorter than it is.
By which you mean, you don't think it's simple, everyone else in this thread seems to understand it perfectly...
The thread is 'long' because you want to argue a point that everyone else is telling you, "No, this is pretty simple in how it works."
Length of this, or any, thread, is not proof of lack of clarity on any given rule. I've seen plenty of lengthy threads with individuals stubbornly insisting the rules mean something than what they really do mean (both RAI and RAW).
Total Defense is a full round action. That does not leave room for much in casting. Or movement.
Is not.
It's a standard action, which means you still have your move and swift actions!
Total Defense is a full round action. That does not leave room for much in casting.Bing!
Bing what? If a creature is cornered that means:
It has no further paths it can take that take it away from the source of fear. And it has no spells it can cast that would aid it in escaping the corner (teleport, dimension door, etc).So now its only option is full defense (which leaves it no standard actions to cast fireball, remove fear, or heroes' feast).
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Remember that while under the effect of "Panicked" you must flee from the source of fear.
Logically this means once you have actually fled from the source of your fear and are effectively out of sight, some distance away and no longer able to determine where the source of fear is, you could stop and cast remove fear on yourself.
So while "fleeing" you cannot do anything else other then flee or use any means to flee including magical/item bases options, but once you have "fled", you can stop and cast spells to remove the condition on yourself.