I'm working on building a 6th level character. He's an empiricist investigator, but I'm currently completely unsure how to build him for combat. I could do a strength/melee build, a feat intensive dex/melee build, or a shortbow build. I'm having trouble deciding, so I was wondering if those of you with more experience could help me along.
How much money does your investigator have to spend?
13,500, I believe.
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Well, the Str build has lower AC, but not necessarily by a whole lot, and is by far the least Feat intensive, leaving plenty of Feats for Extra Investigator Talent and similar things. It also does the most damage.
The Dex-build has a very nice thematic and stylistic element, and has a better AC, at least potentially, but does cost more Feats, and isn't nearly as strong offensively.
The bow build basically requires being human, is absurdly Feat intensive, and really, the only advantage is that it's a ranged build.
The latter two can be helped out a bit with a dip of some sort, but personally, I despise dips on Investigator builds.
I'd go Strength build, personally, though knowing Race and point-buy would help quite a bit in determining whether that's actually the right decision.
I'm playing a Half-Elf. We rolled (somewhat poorly) My array is 16, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10. That's without the racial. I've been leaning Str build but I'm super indecisive. Not sure if I'd do 18 Int and 14 Str or do 16 and 16. I'm really trying to play a skill monkey who can help in combat, not some monster of destruction.
I suggest you go 18 dex and take finesse and fencing grace and a rapier. Most likely taking a swashbuckler (inspired blade) dip at level 1. Int 14 is not amazing for a investigator but 16 is better and only a cheap headband away. Pump dex with level increases. Alternatly i like the idea of a investigator(versatile human) with 18 str and 16 int 14 in con. 13 in dex pehaps. If his level 1 is figther(tactian) he Can take skill focus( linguistic) and orator on level 1, pack a great sword or a bardiche, a breastplate and be in the heavy hitters band even if he wont be lead singer.
On the Way to level 6 he Will get power attack, infusion and extra talent swift study.
And with out magic he Will be somthing like +8 2d6+12, AC 17 and extracts to boot.
Go Finesse, I generally advocate against it, but going WF - Weapon Focus - Fencing Grace is so good for Investigators, who generally suffer at lower levels. Get that Rapier.
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The Mutagen Alchemist Discovery talent can boost Strength, Dexterity or Constitution by +4, so that is liable to get good usage out of any build you create. If you're starting at level 6, I'd definitely go with a dip into fighter for heavy armor proficiency, full martial weapon proficiency, and get a bonus combat feat right out of the gate. You can put the 13 into dexterity, and with full plate, you won't be missing anything (unless you eventually grab mithral armor, which might not be worth it.) After that you can put a 14 into CON, and the two 10s into WIS and CHA respectively.
Lastly, that gives us a 16, a 14, and the half-elf's floating +2 stat bonus.
How you arrange it, in my opinion, depends on whether you intend to go with having a weapon+shield or a 2-handed weapon. If you go with the shield, I'd go with 16 STR/16 INT, and if you're going with a 2-handed weapon, 18 STR/14 INT
Then of course, are the usual magic items to consider: Ring of Deflection, Cloak of Resistance and at this point either a Belt of Giant Strength +2 or a Headband of Vast Intellect +2. Add in +1 to your weapons and armor, add in some important consumables and survival gear like holy water, weapon oils, adamantine/silver/cold iron blanches, potions, etc, and that should be your WBL.
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I'd go 16/16 on a Str build. Int higher than 16 is really not necessary for an Investigator per se.
With those stats I'd go with the following stats:
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 (+1 from Level) Int 16 (+2 from Race) Wis 10 Cha 10
For Traits, I'd go Student of Philosophy and maybe a save-booster or Reactionary.
Feat-wise, I'd go with the following:
1: Whatever you'd like. Maybe Medium Armor Proficiency for extra AC. Or Combat Reflexes if using a Longspear.
3: Power Attack
5: Extra Investigator Talent
Then you get 3 Investigator Talents, one of which should be Quick Study. The other two can be anything you like, with the 'skill monkey' top four being Infusion, Expanded Inspiration, Underworld Inspiration, and Empathy (this last is hyper-specialized...but very powerful in its' sphere), at least, IMO. Mutagen is also excellent...but pretty exclusively combat oriented.
Make sure to put all your FC bonuses into the Half Elf FCB...a bonus on all Inspiration rolls is very nice indeed. Especially combined with Expanded and Underworld Inspiration. You could also swap out your Skill Focus for Dual Minded if you want, though it's by no means a requirement. Skill Focus is pretty cool, though.
For weapon, probably go Longspear. It's a solid choice.
For equipment, +1 Armor, a +1 Weapon, a Headband of Int, a Belt of Str, and a Cloak of Resistance +1 seem the essentials. You'll eventually want an Inspired Weapon, but that's too pricey for this level.
This'll make you a very solid skill monkey and a good combatant to boot.
I'm personally in favor of TWF builds with weapon finnesse or natural attack builds using tieflings.
The idea is to maximize the number of attacks you can get which can easily get into ludicrous numbers between buffs and studied combat.
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TWF is too feat-intensive, and they don't have the stats for it.
Natural attacks could work, but besides being a tiefling, an investigator doesn't have many options to gain others besides using rather valuable magic item slots.
Honestly, if they do go with Weapon Finesse routes, definitely go with 18 dex, and 13 strength. You can still take power attack.
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TWF is too feat-intensive, and they don't have the stats for it.
Natural attacks could work, but besides being a tiefling, an investigator doesn't have many options to gain others besides using rather valuable magic item slots.
Honestly, if they do go with Weapon Finesse routes, definitely go with 18 dex, and 13 strength. You can still take power attack.
TWF is feat intensive but it's exceedingly effective with studied combat. And yes they have the stats for it.
Race wise I'd go with Elf with the Envoy racial trait.
Str: 13+1 4th level
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
You can alter the feats to your liking below. You may want power attack earlier but I'd advise against it. Arcane strike provides just as much damage without an attack penalty.
1 Weapon Finnesse
3 Two Weapon Fighting
5 ArcaneStrike
After that....
7 Inspired Alchemy
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 Power Attack
13 Extra Inspiration
15 Inspired Strike
17 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
19 Extra Investigator Talent (Greater Combat Inspiration (Short Sword, Cestus, or Dagger)
Talents:
3 Alchemist Discovery (Extend Potion)
5 Quick Study
After that...
7 Sickening Offensive
9 Combat Inspiration
11 Alchemist Discovery (Enhance Potion)
13 Amazing Inspiration
15 Alchemists Discovery (Combine Extracts)
17 Alchemist Discovery (Eternal Potion)
19 Confusing Strike
Your main combat extract will be Alter self into This things Alter self will give you more attack and an extra attack at a large penalty but the potential for more damage on a full attack is their all the same. If you prefer more damage than attack and AC you can select a medium shape for similar results
The other extract you want to keep up at all times is Heroism.
So without magic weapons your normal nonbuffed full attack is +5/+5.
With Heroism this becomes +7/+7
Wiht Studied Combat this becomes +10/+10
With Alter self this becomes +12/+12/+7 (Bite)
Studied Combat will add 3 damage to each hit. Arcane Strike will add +2. Your strength (which isn't lowered by Alter Self btw) adds another +2. So a nice +7 to damage on each hit before any extracts are taken into account.
You also have a fantastic selection of skills to choose from, a large pool of inspiration to use (9 points with FCB factored in) and nice long lasting studied combats.
A natural attack build does work with Tieflings. But it can also work with Tengu or virtually any race that grants you claws. Monstrous Physique is where most of your attacks come from.
Remember what I'm suggesting is not a Dex or Str based build but an INT based fighter that can do much, much more than do combat.
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Hah! I would go completely different.
10 Str, 16 Dex (+2),14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 13 Cha
Level 1) Inspired Blade for the Weapon Finesse (only for purposes of feats) and weapon focus (Rapier)
Level 2+ Investigator
Feats:
Bonus (Race:) Skill Focus Knowledge (Choose one)
Bonus (Inspired Blade) Weapon Focus
?Bonus (Inspired Blade): Weapon Finesse (NOTE: This only qualifies you for Feats, no Dex to hit with light weapons)
1) Fencing Grace
3) Eldritch Heritage (Arcane)
5) Extra Investigator Talent
7) Improved Familiar (Pick one capable of using wands)
9) Combat Reflexes (for use with Long Arm)
You will bet getting your Investigator Talents at level 4, 6, 8 etc. not 3, 5, 7 due to Inspired Blade at level 1.
Level 4 Investigator Talent: Alchemical Discovery: Mutagen
Level 5 (From FEAT) Talent: Alchemical Discovery: Infusion
Level 6 Investigator Talent: Quick Study
Level 8 Investigator Talent: Sickening Offensive
Formulae:
Long Arm, Ant Haul and Alchemical Allocation . . . once you have alchemical allocation start buying top tier buff potions, and all of your level 2 should be alchemical allocation.
Ant Haul lasts 2 hours/level, so by time you start at level 6, your carrying capacity will be tripled for 12 hours, 4 hours longer than the typical adventuring day.
Extracts should be whatever you can't reasonably afford to turn into potions for alchemical allocation.
Traits: Reactionary and Fate's Favored come to mind. Since you will start at level 6, consider the Fate's Favored trait for use with Alchemical Allocation and a high level Potion of Divine Favor for buffing and Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier for defense.
Items:
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (+2 AC with Fate's Favored, and nullify 1 crit per day) 5000 gold, 8500 coins remain.
Potion of Divine Favor (Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 9 x 50 =450 gold), 8050 gold remain. (+4 to hit and damage, reusable with alchemical allocation.)
Keen Adamantine Rapier 5020 gold, 3030 gold remaining (more cries = more inspiration)
Wand of Cure Light Wounds 750 gold, 2280 gold remaining
Buy some armor, a backpack, etc. and hold onto the rest so at level 7 you can buy Poisoner's Gloves (5000 gold) for your improved familiar. Then your familiar can rock out some amazing things for you, like handling buffs while you focus on combat.
I vote finesse with +1 inspired rapier.
Human with adopted parentage (tengu) and get weapon focus (rapier) at level 1.
1) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus*
3) Fencing Grace + Mutagen discovery
5) Extra investigator talent
I'm trying to avoid dips like the plague. I definitely see the draw to really ramp up combat, but I'm trying to stick to the skill monkey role as much as possible and do it well. I'm also quite set on half-elf. I like the favored class bonus too much. I'm mainly leaning melee at this point, but I'm still unsure which route to go.
I'm trying to avoid dips like the plague. I definitely see the draw to really ramp up combat, but I'm trying to stick to the skill monkey role as much as possible and do it well. I'm also quite set on half-elf. I like the favored class bonus too much. I'm mainly leaning melee at this point, but I'm still unsure which route to go.
The build I posted above works fine for half elf (just go half drow). You will just have to adjust ability scores accordingly.
Frankly, if you don't take that route just go strength based. I honestly don't get the obsession people have with trying to shove fencing grace/slashing grace onto investigators.
I'm trying to avoid dips like the plague. I definitely see the draw to really ramp up combat, but I'm trying to stick to the skill monkey role as much as possible and do it well. I'm also quite set on half-elf. I like the favored class bonus too much. I'm mainly leaning melee at this point, but I'm still unsure which route to go.The build I posted above works fine for half elf (just go half drow). You will just have to adjust ability scores accordingly.
Frankly, if you don't take that route just go strength based. I honestly don't get the obsession people have with trying to shove fencing grace/slashing grace onto investigators.
That's a big part that I don't understand, at least as far as optimization. It's easier to boost strength through extracts/mutagen, it doesn't eat up and feats, and a two-handed longspear will do more damage than a rapier. I see the defensive benefits from the higher AC and the reflex save, but not a lot else.
I'm trying to avoid dips like the plague. I definitely see the draw to really ramp up combat, but I'm trying to stick to the skill monkey role as much as possible and do it well. I'm also quite set on half-elf. I like the favored class bonus too much. I'm mainly leaning melee at this point, but I'm still unsure which route to go.
A level of inspired blade only helps you be a skill monkey AND it boosts combat. You get Int + Cha panache + derring-do. Now you get do do something like inspiration with Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim. 6 more skills to skill monkey. Then you get dex to hit. one feat is dex to damage.
Really, it's win/win.
Frankly, if you don't take that route just go strength based. I honestly don't get the obsession people have with trying to shove fencing grace/slashing grace onto investigators.
One less stat to worry about means higher attacks, damage and AC. there really isn't a downside to it as long as you have enough STR to carry your stuff.
That's a big part that I don't understand, at least as far as optimization. It's easier to boost strength through extracts/mutagen, it doesn't eat up and feats, and a two-handed longspear will do more damage than a rapier. I see the defensive benefits from the higher AC and the reflex save, but not a lot else.
mutagen: a Dex mutagen subtract from wis, Str does it from int. You lose time from studied combat with a lower int along with lower DC's.
two-handed longspear: This can't get Inspired, and that's really nice. Plus a Darkwood Shield is cheep and at base adds 2 AC.
I dont Think using arcane strike is ideal. Becaus You Will be using the swift action on studied combat in the first round.
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I'm trying to avoid dips like the plague. I definitely see the draw to really ramp up combat, but I'm trying to stick to the skill monkey role as much as possible and do it well. I'm also quite set on half-elf. I like the favored class bonus too much. I'm mainly leaning melee at this point, but I'm still unsure which route to go.A level of inspired blade only helps you be a skill monkey AND it boosts combat. You get Int + Cha panache + derring-do. Now you get do do something like inspiration with Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim. 6 more skills to skill monkey. Then you get dex to hit. one feat is dex to damage.
Really, it's win/win.
One less stat to worry about means higher attacks, damage and AC. there really isn't a downside to it as long as you have enough STR to carry your stuff.
Frankly, if you don't take that route just go strength based. I honestly don't get the obsession people have with trying to shove fencing grace/slashing grace onto investigators.
What she said, and the above is a half doc build....
I dont Think using arcane strike is ideal. Becaus You Will be using the swift action on studied combat in the first round.
You can also use a move action. Alternatively, just don't worry too much about it as you may not be attacking in the first round anyway with needing to move into melee range as is.
It's a bit early in the morning but I'll talk about why going fencing grace/slashing grace/dervish dance is fairly pointless on an investigator later.
I Think you should put dex or str highest because that is the stat you Will pump with levels to stay relevant in combat. Investigator is already a great skill class if you focus on getting a bit more out of the skill part you risk that skills Will be your only meningfull contribution. High dex, and if possible dex to damage, Will allow you to have good defense and fair offense. With sickening strike at level 7 you Will be fine.
I m a fan of a level dip om investigators becuse i like to Pick stuff at every level. And by taking a dip you end up getting talents at even levels.
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Seriously folks, you don't need to go Dex based to make a solid Investigator. Strength builds do fine, and have the advantage of being way less Feat intensive, as well as doing more damage.
Dex builds are certainly solid, but with the far greater investment and lowered offense in exchange for increased defense, they're really a more dedicated combat build in a lot of ways. A skill build needs to invest way too much in the way of resources into making a Dex-build work for it to be really feasible unless you're also focusing really heavily on the Dex-based skills specifically.
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My de based has the following advantage over some of the others--
1) starting at level 7, huge action economy and many skills boosts
..... A) your familiar has the same ranks as you. It can aid other. Now you have +2 to most skills.
..... B) your familiar has a swift, move, and standard action of its own it can spend buffing, healing, or delivering. This saves you from having to spend your own actions to, for example, cast enlarge person from a wand.
2) the high dex increases damage, reflex, admittedly the most useless of all saves, and several skills. Str builds will increase damage, swim, climb, and no saves.
3) the number of skills an inquisitor has is already pretty insane. If you like, you could easily swap the +2 to int if you felt you needed more.
At the end of the day, it is your build. Personally I think you'd be better off getting the most bang for your buck. More actions, more versatility and more options is generally more bang.
Myself, I wouldn't bump Cha to 13 just for a familiar (and spend 2 feats). There are enough ways to turn Cha skills to Int skills that it wouldn't impact skills rolls and there is little other use for the stat. those stat points are just worth so much more in any other stat. (str for carry, wis for saves, con for hp, dex and int main stats)
extra actions are nice but you could have 2 more talents for that.
My de based has the following advantage over some of the others--
1) starting at level 7, huge action economy and many skills boosts
..... A) your familiar has the same ranks as you. It can aid other. Now you have +2 to most skills.
..... B) your familiar has a swift, move, and standard action of its own it can spend buffing, healing, or delivering. This saves you from having to spend your own actions to, for example, cast enlarge person from a wand.
2) the high dex increases damage, reflex, admittedly the most useless of all saves, and several skills. Str builds will increase damage, swim, climb, and no saves.
3) the number of skills an inquisitor has is already pretty insane. If you like, you could easily swap the +2 to int if you felt you needed more.At the end of the day, it is your build. Personally I think you'd be better off getting the most bang for your buck. More actions, more versatility and more options is generally more bang.
This all sounds great if he was playing a MAgus who doesn't need to spend feats for a familiar and actually has loads of incentive to go after fencing/slashing/dervishing grace. But he's not. He can go strength based and get all of that or even Int based honestly.
It would also be great if he relied on Dex for a lot of skills. But seeing as he's an empiricist the only skill that may make a differecen to him is Acrobatics.
Also alot of the builds suggesting these things say to take Weapon Focus at level 1 which is technically impossible since you need a BAB of +1. Don't feel bad I make that mistake constantly myself.
Rather than go off into a tangent I'm going to make a separate thread addressing the issue.
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My de based has the following advantage over some of the others--
1) starting at level 7, huge action economy and many skills boosts
..... A) your familiar has the same ranks as you. It can aid other. Now you have +2 to most skills.
..... B) your familiar has a swift, move, and standard action of its own it can spend buffing, healing, or delivering. This saves you from having to spend your own actions to, for example, cast enlarge person from a wand.
Eh. A Familiar's ability to Aid Another isn't as great as all that (though cool). I really don't think it's worth it to invest in Charisma for this effect. Particularly if using Point-Buy, so it's slightly better here than many places.
2) the high dex increases damage, reflex, admittedly the most useless of all saves, and several skills. Str builds will increase damage, swim, climb, and no saves.
For an Empiricist (and almost all Investigators should be Empiricists) it increases Acrobatics, Stealth, and I guess Fly. The Save bonus is nice enough...but the Str build can do a lot more damage with Power Attack on a two-handed weapon.
Their AC winds up quite a bit better, admittedly, but you either invest a level (and thus a delay in all Investigator Class Features, including spellcasting...which people should almost never do, and which sucks) or several Feats. It's doable and effective, but a rather more focused combat build than the Str Investigator needs to be.
3) the number of skills an inquisitor has is already pretty insane. If you like, you could easily swap the +2 to int if you felt you needed more.
No such thing as too many skills. Especially if skill monkey is the role you're aiming for.
At the end of the day, it is your build. Personally I think you'd be better off getting the most bang for your buck. More actions, more versatility and more options is generally more bang.
It's less versatility and options, really. You're sacrificing several Feats you could use for more Investigator Talents or other tricks for the Familiar, and delaying all the tricks Investigator gets in exchange for combat prowess.
It's a solid build (though I feel you're overvaluing a Familiar), but it's much more a combat build than a skill build with a side in combat.