Hi Everybody,
I'm working on a human rogue for an original campaign set in Ustalav. This rogue is an aged recruitment officer from Lastwall and I imagine him as a type of advisor to the other players/characters. I may be the only experienced player so I don't want to hog all the spotlight. The rogue is intended to be a way for me to help other players, as needed, while in character.
He is a STR-based, AoO build with a longspear. I plan on using my turn to Aid Another most rounds and attacking with AoOs as they appear.
I've got Combat Reflexes (for the reach) and am looking for a second, defensive feat. The game is Core Rule Book only (absolutely no exceptions). I plan on taking Weapon Training (longspear) and Power Attack at levels 2 and 3, respectively.
While I don't want to go full optimization, I still want the character to survive. Therefore, which would be the "best" defensive option at level 1 for an undead-heavy campaign: Toughness, Dodge, Greater Fortitude, Iron Will?
Thanks!
I assume you don’t want a lot of people telling you to change your class (e.g. keep the background, but be a bard who uses oratory to inspire courage and uses a whip to aid another at 15’, etc.) You’ll probably get that anyway. :)
The undead that tend to be real threats to low-level parties are incorporeals like shadows and poltergeists. They’re not easy to defend against. Getting touch AC up would help--if you aren’t going to be a dex-based combatant, that will be hard, but you might consider less popular feats like Dodge and Combat Expertise.
Other than that, Toughness is probably your best defense against the skeletons and zombies that tend to be the bulk of low-level encounters. Get Greater Fortitude before you start running into ghouls, and Iron Will before you start running into vampires.
Ya. I'm not looking to change classes. The group needs a skill monkey and we already have two clerics in the group. A bard would have a lot of spell overlap. Unfortunately, I rolled low-ish for stats and don't have the INT for Combat Expertise.
With a Chain Shirt and a 14 Dex, my AC is currently at 16.
I read somewhere that most undead fort/will saves are based off of a successful hit. If that's the case, wouldn't Dodge be the most beneficial?
I was also considering Medium Armor Proficiency - it would be better in the long run than Dodge for AC maybe, but, I am concerned about the armor check penalty.
Get Spear Dancer to stack Dazzled on enemies.
Perhaps go with high Charisma to wear a Banner of the Ancient Kings and the Flagbearer feat.
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Ya. I'm not looking to change classes. The group needs a skill monkey and we already have two clerics in the group. A bard would have a lot of spell overlap.
Eh. Clerics lack Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Haste, and Good Hope. Plus illusion and charm spells in general. There's really very little overlap, and Bard would do this quite a bit better (while also being a better skill monkey).
Unfortunately, I rolled low-ish for stats and don't have the INT for Combat Expertise.
With a Chain Shirt and a 14 Dex, my AC is currently at 16.
I read somewhere that most undead fort/will saves are based off of a successful hit. If that's the case, wouldn't Dodge be the most beneficial?
Eh...depends on the undead. Vampires dominating you is just a straight Will Save.
I was also considering Medium Armor Proficiency - it would be better in the long run than Dodge for AC maybe, but, I am concerned about the armor check penalty.
What skills are you focused on? Most skills actually don't care about armor check.
Snake Style, alas, is from Ultimate Combat.
Our party is finalized. No class changes allowed. We have...
1. Cleric (desna)- healing
2. Cleric (nythus)- necromancy (oh, he'll have fun with the peasants in Ustalav...)
3. Barbarian
4. Ranger - switch hitter
5. Barbarian - going DD through sorcerer
6. Rogue (me)
Overall, not a bad mix. We are light on the Arcane but if I take UMD that should even that out.
I have an 11 INT and 9 skills. They are: acrobatics, climb, diplomacy, DD, Know dungeoneering, know local, perception, sense motive, and stealth.
Consensus seems to be that Dodge is best. I am in agreement.
Any other CRB-only advice?
Ustalav but not Carrion Crown. The GM does his own stunts...I mean, writes his own adventures.
Pick up lunge eventually to maximize your reach advantage. It's really useful for forcing enemies to move through your threatened area to maximize your AoOs, and can let you aid another from farther away.
Great suggestion. Never consider the application to Aid Another. Thanks!
If you plan to aid another as a rogue, it may pay off to be a Halfling Opportunist for the Helpful Trait and the aid another advantage plus dealing sneak attack on aoo.
How is Stand Still as a feat?
I heard it was terrible because it requires a CMB check for some reason...
If you plan to aid another as a rogue, it may pay off to be a Halfling Opportunist for the Helpful Trait and the aid another advantage plus dealing sneak attack on aoo.
This rogue has to be Core Rule Book only. Thanks for the help, but, please stop suggesting things from other sources.
It's great for a fighter, terrible for a rogue, because it requires a maneuver.
Ya. That's what I thought.
Ohh...a shadow dancer that worships Iomedae? That could be fun...
*grins wickedly*
Ohh...a shadow dancer that worships Iomedae? That could be fun...
*grins wickedly*
And incredibly thematic for Ustalav. If a Shadowdancer could fit in anywhere, Ustalav would be the place.
"Who knows the evil that lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow(dancer) knows!" Cue wicked laughter.Don't have TOO much fun.
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Rogue in Ustalav: this is going to suck for you if you can't take Twist Away feat (not corebook, but from advanced class guide)
Rogue is the weakest class in the game, but if you limit yourself to corebook, it's absolutely dismal.
At least Twist Away lets you roll Ref saves instead of Fort saves (because with your low Fort save, your lifespan in Ustalav will be severely decreased... you know it's full of undead right? :) )
If I go Shadowdancer, I will probably take a level or two of fighter for the extra feats. Going full rogue into SD is a little ridiculous as far as stealth is concerned. Plus, there aren't that many good Rogue Talents from the CRB that are worth a full 5 rogue levels.
The fighter will also get me lunge quicker and help boost my Fort saves. Probably Rogue 3/Fighter 2 then full Shadowdancer.
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If I go Shadowdancer, I will probably take a level or two of fighter for the extra feats. Going full rogue into SD is a little ridiculous as far as stealth is concerned. Plus, there aren't that many good Rogue Talents from the CRB that are worth a full 5 rogue levels.
Probably not a bad idea, and it will help your BAB and Fort save as well.
Its a shame you can't use Advanced Players Guide, because without Shadow Strike, it kind of hedges you into having to play a race with Darkvision. Otherwise, you're going to have a lot of situations where you won't be able to sneak attack your target due to concealment from lighting.
That said, as far as Core rulebook:
As someone who has DM'd Carrion Crown as well as running a fair amount of supplemental material, I assure you that the Will save is fairly key. Even if not running the CC AP, Ustalav itself is known for its haunts, undead, curses, and what-not, and many of these employ 'save-or-suck' effects. Fortitude is secondary in this degree due to the number of diseases, Lycanthropy, level drain, and the like. In this regard, Iron Will (and even Improved Iron Will for when it matters) and Great Fortitude are solid choices.
Terrain in Ustalav can be varied, but a lot of wilderness involves difficult terrain, so I like Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps for setting up that Sneak Attack or breaking away. If you're utilizing Acrobatics to move around, that half speed penalty can bog you down if you have to worry about marsh or brush terrain.
There are a lot of grabby monsters in Ustalav (or certain parts), so if you think there's gonna be a lot of those, Defensive Combat Training and Agile Maneuvers can be helpful in resisting that.
Besides that, your best bet is to focus either on ranged (sniper) or melee and devote your other feats towards that. Hope that helps!
If I go Shadowdancer, I will probably take a level or two of fighter for the extra feats. Going full rogue into SD is a little ridiculous as far as stealth is concerned. Plus, there aren't that many good Rogue Talents from the CRB that are worth a full 5 rogue levels.Probably not a bad idea, and it will help your BAB and Fort save as well.
Don't forget Bravery...
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Yeah, that works. Definitely go Fighter for your 2nd level. It fits thematically, and will make you more survivable by quite a bit. I'd still grab Iron will as your second Feat, though. Low Will Saves suck.
EDIT: Hey, wait a minute, what are your Alignment and Charisma? If LG and Cha 12+, you could go Paladin instead of fighter for those two levels...that'd give you one Smite a day (to ignore DR) and really help your Saves.
Alignment is LN and Charisma an 8.
My stats are:
STR 17, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 8
Human +2 bonus into STR. Rogue Eidolon's guide for the brute rogue suggested to dump CHA so I went with that. These stats can be reassigned.
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if your schtick is to become a bodyguard to your fellow adventurers, I would recommend the Ulfen Guard PrC combined with the bodyguard feat (non Core); Team Up feat would also be good here...
if your schtick is to aid another, I would recommend delving into Pathfinder Chronicler PrC (Core) which has this: (also with the bodyguard feat, of course)
Improved Aid (Ex): Pathfinder chroniclers frequently serve as the companions of great heroes, standing by their sides and recording their deeds, but often lending a crucial helping hand. Starting at 3rd level, a Pathfinder chronicler using the aid another action grants a +4 bonus, rather than the normal +2.
Unfortunately, Body Guard is a no-go.
Pathfinder Chronicler is interesting. Never seen one in play...
Is Pathfinder Chronicler worth a 3 level investment though?
EDIT: From what I can tell, the Pathfinder Chronicler really needs feats from other materials to excel (e.g. Flagbearer feat). I think I will pass on this one.
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If your GM allows traits, the Helpful trait gives a +4 bonus to aid instead of +2.
For what you are doing, I suggest Combat reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack. Get one from Rogue talent Combat trick and take Weapon trick (or trap spotter if your gm likes traps). Then take 2-4 levels shadow dancer. Spring out of the shadows, stab and hide again. Wait for them to approach for AoO's. Repeat. Consider buying a wand of darkness when you get darkvision from shadow dancer.
