Or you could have it eat a swift if you try and sheathe and draw in the same turn, free if you only do one.
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I think that this goes right along with one of the many problems of the 3.X systems. A FEAT OR RULE IS NEEDED TO DO EVERYTHING. And I mean everything. Standing up, yup there are rules and feats and all sorts of stuff for that. Sleeping, we got feats and rules for that. Sick? What level of sick are we talking about because there are all sorts of different rules for being "sick". Are you sickened, nauseated, or do you have your ass planted on the crapper, while simultaneously projectile vomiting, along with a stream of Hersey's syrup firing our the back end. AND IF SO IF I AIM MY VOMIT AT A SQUARE CAN I MAKE OTHER CREATURES SICKENED ALONG WITH ME. AND BY THE WAY GM, WHAT SHOULD THE SAVE DC BE FOR THEM TO RESIST CATCHING WHATEVER PLAGUE I HAVE?
Seriously I'm surprised there hasn't been a rules set made up for using the bathroom.
The sad/funny thing about D&D is it didn't always use to be this way. There was a point in time where DMs where actually encouraged to use a bit of (DARE I SAY IT?) COMMON SENSE.
Ultimately, while I do agree that if we're going to allow Dragons and Fireballs then we should allow for free weapon drawing and sheathing without a feat, I don't think that's the real issue here. I don't think the issue is about what breaks the realism in the game.
No I think what people are really b!@~@ing about is two things:
-CASTERS and the Expectation of "Class Balance". Somewhere in the last 15 years of gaming people have started to assume that their Fighter should be able to do crazy things on part with the Wizard. Sorry, but that is just stupid. No matter the level of realism, expecting your Fighter to be able to keep up with the Wizard in terms of coolness factor is just silly. Even in the world of Tolkien the Fighters didn't keep up with Gandalf. I just didn't happen.
-Being Feat Taxed to Death: This is the other side of the coin here. Because while I don't think Casters need to be nerfed, I do think the rest of the classes get screwed spending what limited resources they do have just to be 1/10th as cool as a caster. You wind up spending you limited number of feats on stuff just to do your basic job well (never mind being cool at it) or to make up for class weaknesses. Meanwhile the Wizard is just sitting back and breaking reality with his spells.
Unfortunately this is the 3.X world we play in. Use some common sense and stop looking for the publishers to make every single option under the sun. Because unless you're playing in some "Official Gaming Society" then the rules should be fluid, and you should be able to decide for yourself what level of "Realism" you want at your table.
[END RANT]
Though, if you want realism with free actions, limit what can be said in a combat round to what a player can spit out in six seconds, and restrict other players from hearing it until halfway into their turn.
Another thing about " a round is 6 seconds."
First level fighters and daggers.
How any times can you stab something soft and squishy in six seconds?
A trained fighter can do it once.
>_>
Anthony...
I'm just not going to respond to that. I might get banned for what I would say.
Suffice it to say, I disagree with a lot of things in your post.
I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.what if, I want to sheathe a weapon so I can draw it again?So it would be a swift action to sheath it, and then a free action to draw it?
I don't understand the question.
oh weird I misread the feat, I skimmed it and thought this was another feat I saw before that allowed you to swap weapons as a straight swift action.
How any times can you stab something soft and squishy in six seconds?A trained fighter can do it once.
>_>
It is a bit odd but it's also an abstraction of you finding the best opportunity in that 6 seconds to strike. Because realistically your opponent wouldn't just be standing there waiting to be stabbed. Some of that abstraction is necessary to make a quickly flowing game.
Though, if you want realism with free actions, limit what can be said in a combat round to what a player can spit out in six seconds, and restrict other players from hearing it until halfway into their turn.
Another thing about " a round is 6 seconds."
First level fighters and daggers.
How any times can you stab something soft and squishy in six seconds?
A trained fighter can do it once.
>_>
it's more like, how many times do you get to roll for damage, which is an abstraction of multiple hit's and may not even be you actually stabbing someone. remember humans can only take a few stabs of the sword before they start bleeding everywhere. when you level up you do not in fact gain an additional layer of fat.
think of HP less as health and cumulative points putting the battle in your favor. Actions that put the battle in your favor could be stabbing him, or you just hit his parry hard enough to the point it's fatiguing for the other party. only the final hit must be a "run through".
with a poisoned weapon, you're not going for fatal wounds like with a sword and thus are aiming to simply get a cut in, which is why i am fine verisimilitude wise on why you always poison people on hits, among other types of attacks.
also, if the enemy is helpless enough to "allow" multiple shankings, it's a coup de grace, which is an auto-crit, fort save to not die.
Well, if it isn't actual damage, why does it take so long to heal?
Not to mention that with enough hp, you don't have any abstraction- with 61 hp, you are Garenteed to survive 6 seconds submersed in /lava/.
Well, if it isn't actual damage, why does it take so long to heal?
you're tired, you cannot in fact fight in the next battle as if you're not tired unless your paladin rubs you the right way. anything "damaging" enough to turn the tide in battle so to speak, is going to be hurting for days. this is why you heal based on HD, and not at a constant rate.
Not to mention that with enough hp, you don't have any abstraction- with 61 hp, you are Garenteed to survive 6 seconds submersed in /lava/.
because the character did something to make him survive longer. he's not actually submerged, maybe he's riding his shield. his magical armor is protecting him, etc.
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Not to mention that with enough hp, you don't have any abstraction- with 61 hp, you are Garenteed to survive 6 seconds submersed in /lava/.because the character did something to make him survive longer. he's not actually submerged, maybe he's riding his shield. his magical armor is protecting him, etc.
No, he's actually butt-naked and dropped into lava with no rock handholds or anything nearby. In an Anti-Magic Field. Also, all the gods are dead. Six seconds later, he is pulled out by a giant eagle. They have a good laugh and he chugs some potions once they get clear of the AMF.
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Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of fire damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round.
Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round). Immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity or resistance to fire, lava or magma. A creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning).
Ooops, looks like this time he gets crispified.
Ah. It's 20d6. My mistake.
Though, partial exposure to lava? Deals 5d6, max.
Average 17.5
That's not enough to kill a 12 con commoner. They'd survive at negative, if they stablize.
Level two fighter? Can poke it, and get away before he falls unconious.
Level three? Good chance he wouldn't even get knocked out.
Now, go stick your arm in lava, see if you'd survive.
(You'd die just getting anywhere close, by the way.)
No, he's actually butt-naked and dropped into lava with no rock handholds or anything nearby. In an Anti-Magic Field. Also, all the gods are dead. Six seconds later, he is pulled out by a giant eagle. They have a good laugh and he chugs some potions once they get clear of the AMF.Not to mention that with enough hp, you don't have any abstraction- with 61 hp, you are Garenteed to survive 6 seconds submersed in /lava/.because the character did something to make him survive longer. he's not actually submerged, maybe he's riding his shield. his magical armor is protecting him, etc.
the GM should just tell him he's dead if he already set up the rest of those conditions. :P
Ah. It's 20 d6. My mistake.
Though, partial exposure to lava? Deals 5d6, max.
Average 17.5
That's not enough to kill a 12 con commoner. They'd survive at negative.
Now, go stick your arm in lava, see if you'd survive.
(You'd die just getting anywhere close, by the way.)
so the lava damage is probably lower than needed, i already said earlier that you should technically be taking damage when near it, not even from touching it.
The point is that if you take "damage" by touching lava, and it heals at the same rate as damage from a sword, the sword is Probably hitting you.
The point is that if you take "damage" by touching lava, and it heals at the same rate as damage from a sword, the sword is Probably hitting you.
my point is lava should probably do way more damage. so by comparison, sword strikes heal WAY faster and are far less likely to insta gib you.
** spoiler omitted **
Apparently my dice are killer.
The commoner is at -11. Not dead. Probably dead, but not dead.
Of course, the fighter is at -6.
The second level, con 12 commoner is at about -4, assuming average hp rolls.
The second level con 12 fighter is at about -2.
Con 14 second level fighter is at 0, still conscious.
** spoiler omitted **
Apparently my dice are killer.
The commoner is at -11. Not dead. Probably dead, but not dead.
Of course, the fighter is at -6.
The second level, con 12 commoner is at about -4, assuming average hp rolls.
The second level con 12 fighter is at about -2.
Con 14 second level fighter is at 0, still conscious.
to be perfectly honest, someone probably could live for a few seconds in these conditions as their body lies there unconscious. their blood would react explosively to the heat creating a barrier as the blood vaporizes turning to gas. organics burn slow in lava.
The point is that if you take "damage" by touching lava, and it heals at the same rate as damage from a sword, the sword is Probably hitting you.my point is lava should probably do way more damage. so by comparison, sword strikes heal WAY faster and are far less likely to insta gib you.
This started with me asking how many times you could stab someone in 6 seconds.
If damage heals at the same slow rate for hits as it does burns or bleed, each hit should be assumed to be a, well, hit.
Else, why does the damage stick around so long?
You never said anything about fighters. You were talking about 12 Con commoners.
You didn't catch my edit, then. Sorry.
Considering a 12 con commoner isn't insta-dead, through...
My fighter is skilled and precise enough with his motion to trim the hairs of a fly with his sword as it buzzes around him.
Put it away fast, though? Hah! Probably stab himself and die of tetanus.
[Fly AC +4 Dex +8 size = 22; +10 for a called shot to the nose hairs = AC 32. +31 to hit ;) ]
to be perfectly honest, someone probably could live for a few seconds in these conditions as their body lies there unconscious. their blood would react explosively to the heat creating a barrier as the blood vaporizes turning to gas. organics burn slow in lava.** spoiler omitted **
Apparently my dice are killer.
The commoner is at -11. Not dead. Probably dead, but not dead.
Of course, the fighter is at -6.
The second level, con 12 commoner is at about -4, assuming average hp rolls.
The second level con 12 fighter is at about -2.
Con 14 second level fighter is at 0, still conscious.
Two more con, and the second level fighter won't even need medical attention, it'll heal in a few weeks.
Considering a 12 con commoner isn't insta-dead, through...Well, it would have to make the stabilization check on the first round, or lose that one hit point. And then it would destabilize as the second round of burning hit and have to do it again. With a negative total on both checks.
I already counted him failing the first.
And, of course, yes.He'd die quick after.
I'm not debating that.
This is a only slightly-more con then normal commoner, after all.
The point is that if you take "damage" by touching lava, and it heals at the same rate as damage from a sword, the sword is Probably hitting you.my point is lava should probably do way more damage. so by comparison, sword strikes heal WAY faster and are far less likely to insta gib you.This started with me asking how many times you could stab someone in 6 seconds.
If damage heals at the same slow rate for hits as it does burns or bleed, each hit should be assumed to be a, well, hit.
Else, why does the damage stick around so long?
except it doesn't.
that commoner, regardless of damage, will at worst be out for (he has what 4 hp?) 15 days, 8 if he receives medical care. people must REALLY get over stab wounds quick. if he never went unconscious at worst 3 days.
you're over analyzing this anyway, I simply said that in game your character is not in fact stabbing once per 6 seconds. you made several attacks or counters or parries, but only 1d4+str damage can be done with your skill level per turn. (give or take a crit)
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Considering a 12 con commoner isn't insta-dead, through...Well, it would have to make the stabilization check on the first round, or lose that one hit point. And then it would destabilize as the second round of burning hit and have to do it again. With a negative total on both checks.I already counted him failing the first.
So 10 points from the initial, dropping to -3, stabiize or go to -4, take 6 to -9, stabilize or go to -10, take 2 to -11, stabilize or go to -12.
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So a 20 level barbarian can actualy swim in lava, thats funny
man that raging swimmer ability never seemed so fun.
So a 20 level barbarian can actualy swim in lava, thats funny
Technically, due to poorly written rules, it used to be- so can anyone with one fire resist.
I hope they fixed that.
I think a swift action is a good compromise, and it can be added to the quickdraw feat. I really don't think it(quick sheathing) is worth its own feat except for specialized builds.
Thumbs up to Squirrel_Dude.
Scale it so that you can draw as free, and then, one you hit a certain BAB you can also sheathe as swift.
So 10 points from the initial, dropping to -3, stabiize or go to -4, take 6 to -9, stabilize or go to -10, take 2 to -11, stabilize or go to -12.Considering a 12 con commoner isn't insta-dead, through...Well, it would have to make the stabilization check on the first round, or lose that one hit point. And then it would destabilize as the second round of burning hit and have to do it again. With a negative total on both checks.I already counted him failing the first.
Ok. Fine.
*shrug*
So the level one commoner can't survive that.
I wouldn't say most people are level one commoners in this world, but that's me.
I don't think most people suck enough to be level one commoners, myself.
You know, I think is hostile leave. I'm creating unnecessary issues... And having an argument on the internet.
Every time I have an argument on the internet, I feel dirty and stupid afterwords.
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I think it would be quite weak as a feat to get swift action quick sheathing. Im seeing it more like quick draw shot get a swift action sheathin and quick sheathing shout make it a free action.
Since quick draw is improving something you already have and giving you something gimped then quick sheathin is improving something you already have but the combination of both makes them much more powerful. Such a sinergistic aproach makes it worthwhile as a feat chain
Messing up a Quick Draw: "Oops I missed the handle in all the jostling -- guess it will take me 2 seconds to draw it instead of 1."
Messing up a Quick Sheathe: "OWWW $#%^%&##%!! I stuck it down my pants instead of the scabbard!!"
Actually, as a reasonable house rule I would suggest that allowing Quick Sheathe without too much additional effort beyond Quick Draw makes sense for Bludgeoning weapons and other things that do not Pierce or Slash (for instance, Rods, Wands, etc.), but not for Piercing or Slashing Weapons -- doing that safely without needing to be slow will require extra finesse.
Also note that in the video referenced above, both types of swords had only 1 cutting edge -- if they were double-edged like a lot of swords common in the west, you wouldn't be able to use that technique.
What!? The lava rules aren't perfect? Then clearly you should be able to sheathe a weapon as a free action.
What!? The lava rules aren't perfect? Then clearly you should be able to sheathe a weapon as a free action.
That depends on if you view 20th level characters as normal people with more powers than someone of a lower level or do you start to look at them like we view superheroes.
A normal person even at level 20 is not going to swim in lava. A superhero might.
Personally I think the original writers of the game had the first view in mind, but with all of the things that are possible the mechanics actually support the 2nd view.
However both views are valid.
Surviving lava will do nothing help you sheathe a weapon. There is no correlation between the two. The closest nonmagical thing I can think of is the ability to shoot a projectile off of a wall to hit your target since it involves hand to eye coordination that many people would not have.
I guess if that is allowed then quick sheathing is not so bad however.
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What!? The lava rules aren't perfect? Then clearly you should be able to sheathe a weapon as a free action.That depends on if you view 20th level characters as normal people with more powers than someone of a lower level or do you start to look at them like we view superheroes.
A normal person even at level 20 is not going to swim in lava. A superhero might.
Personally I think the original writers of the game had the first view in mind, but with all of the things that are possible the mechanics actually support the 2nd view.
However both views are valid.
Surviving lava will do nothing help you sheathe a weapon. There is no correlation between the two. The closest nonmagical thing I can think of is the ability to shoot a projectile off of a wall to hit your target since it involves hand to eye coordination that many people would not have.
I guess if that is allowed then quick sheathing is not so bad however.
Every people has its standards and every GM has its style. Some people prefer low magic some people prefer high fantsy. The thing is pathfinder is a fantasy game and its a simulation, it certaintly needs some grade of suspention of disbelief but it also needs some degree of fantasy. How much fantasy is too much will depend on the personal view of each person but because this is a game many people play you cant just simply impose how realistic the game must be. Some people wanted to suicide when pathfinder announced they would stat laser guns in golarion, some welcomed the diversity, I for instance welcome diversity, it brings new things to the table and new anecdotes for the games for me it makes the game a better game. I know some people just want to play some vague idea of a LoTr like setting because they think its more realistic than Aliens vs Cowboys and thats fine thats their game. But Golarion also shows there is place for all kinds of game, if you wanna play with samurais, robots, pirates or sorcerors the game is there to support it and the game is there to give you the necessary mechanics to make them work. If the existance of a mechanic bring interesting options then thats good design
Messing up a Quick Draw: "Oops I missed the handle in all the jostling -- guess it will take me 2 seconds to draw it instead of 1."
Messing up a Quick Sheathe: "OWWW $#%^%&##%!! I stuck it down my pants instead of the scabbard!!"
Actually, as a reasonable house rule I would suggest that allowing Quick Sheathe without too much additional effort beyond Quick Draw makes sense for Bludgeoning weapons and other things that do not Pierce or Slash (for instance, Rods, Wands, etc.), but not for Piercing or Slashing Weapons -- doing that safely without needing to be slow will require extra finesse.
Also note that in the video referenced above, both types of swords had only 1 cutting edge -- if they were double-edged like a lot of swords common in the west, you wouldn't be able to use that technique.
I'm pretty sure double bladed weapons have a notch (from the weapon no less) on the underside of the scabbard entrance, allowing you to pull it up along the notch and then slide it in.
Every people has its standards and every GM has its style. Some people prefer low magic some people prefer high fantsy. The thing is pathfinder is a fantasy game and its a simulation, it certaintly needs some grade of suspention of disbelief but it also needs some degree of fantasy. How much fantasy is too much will depend on the personal view of each person but because this is a game many people play you cant just simply impose how realistic the game must be. Some people wanted to suicide when pathfinder announced they would stat laser guns in golarion, some welcomed the diversity, I for instance welcome diversity, it brings new things to the table and new anecdotes for the games for me it makes the game a better game. I know some people just want to play some vague idea of a LoTr like setting because they think its more realistic than Aliens vs Cowboys and thats fine thats their game. But Golarion also shows there is place for all kinds of game, if you wanna play with samurais, robots, pirates or...What!? The lava rules aren't perfect? Then clearly you should be able to sheathe a weapon as a free action.That depends on if you view 20th level characters as normal people with more powers than someone of a lower level or do you start to look at them like we view superheroes.
A normal person even at level 20 is not going to swim in lava. A superhero might.
Personally I think the original writers of the game had the first view in mind, but with all of the things that are possible the mechanics actually support the 2nd view.
However both views are valid.
Surviving lava will do nothing help you sheathe a weapon. There is no correlation between the two. The closest nonmagical thing I can think of is the ability to shoot a projectile off of a wall to hit your target since it involves hand to eye coordination that many people would not have.
I guess if that is allowed then quick sheathing is not so bad however.
That is basically what my first sentence is saying.
There is a feat called "Quick Draw" from Flaming Crab Games and the PDF is called "Forgotten Core feats" and it is well worth everyone taking a look at. Though to use it you do need "Quick Draw" as a prereq.
So a 20 level barbarian can actualy swim in lava, thats funny
I think by level 20 you are wondering if there's a couple more of your high level friends if you could not go and kill a demi god, so you know..epic stuff.
It could also be a Trait, since it is not enough for a feat. However the compromises of Swift actions etc all make good sense.
While Anthony up there has a certain way of making a point about the needing a feat for everything, I very much agree and it is linked to what I mentioned before about feat bloating. Sometimes, I would like to tell my players "this happens" without someone asking "well what are the rules for that, because here is says that..". Just breaks narrative, and I dont feel like making someone take a DC-because-i-said-so-40 or hand wave rules away because they are seriously getting in the way of common sense, storytelling or because I did not think of reading up on mice juggling rules and the necessary animal juggling feats.
As for real life sheathing, I have not found anything either WraithStrike, certainly not something that people practice often nowadays it seems. My experience is not with a weapon, but a tool, a sailing knife in classic ships and rough weather conditions. It was an example to compare a mundane task with what someone amazing (high dex, adventurers, etc) could potentially do.
± fingers.
I'm not a fan of eliminating tactical consequences, especially when dropping a weapon is a viable and flavorful option (assuming your GM isn't a jerk).
I do think the following changes would be a good compromise.
1) You can sheathe weapons as a free action as part of a regular movement.
2) If you have Quick Draw, you can sheathe as a swift action.
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I do think the following changes would be a good compromise.
1) You can sheathe weapons as a free action as part of a regular movement.
2) If you have Quick Draw, you can sheathe as a swift action.
Those are good enough foe me.
I meant "Quick Sheath" From Flaming Crab Games.