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Let try to explain better.
Note the Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a Two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff.
This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
So, if said Monk, used a Longspear, could the Reach property be utilized?
Would it just function as a two-handed double weapon, without reach(as a quarterstaff)?
Would said Monk, using an improvised weapon, that could conceivably be used as a reach weapon, like a 10ft pole, function as though they had reach?
Hah. I never actually noticed that. RAW, they can never, ever be proficient with a weapon, even if they multiclass. Wow. That was poorly written.
He does not appear to be able to, sorry. Not sure why I left that out.
Unless you can convince your GM to allow improvised weapons to have weapon qualities, that is. I could see it for reach... sort of.
It is not about proficiency, for which I ask, but accessing weapon qualities.
True, to the Monk of the Empty Hand they mean nothing. In fact, the shuriken proficiency is meaningless because as soon as they touch it, it turns into a light hammer. This means they can't treat them like ammo to draw them as they are hammers now. :P
As to the questions...
"So, if said Monk, used a Longspear, could the Reach property be utilized?": Not by default. A DM could add any special features they wish though. A coat rack would be better at tripping/disarming than a broom after all.
"Would it just function as a two-handed double weapon, without reach(as a quarterstaff)?": Again, not by default. Double weapon is a special feature and you only treat two handed weapons as staves for damage.
"Would said Monk, using an improvised weapon, that could conceivably be used as a reach weapon, like a 10ft pole, function as though they had reach?": Not by default, but nothing stops the DM from allowing the improvised weapon from having it.
I remember there being language in 3.0/5 that allowed for some improvised weapons to have sensible properties (disarm on a chair was specifically pointed out, as was reach on a ladder I believe). Oddly, I'm only now noticing that Empty Hand doesn't grant anything like free Catch Off-guard at 1st...
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It is not about proficiency, for which I ask, but accessing weapon qualities.
True, to the Monk of the Empty Hand they mean nothing. In fact, the shuriken proficiency is meaningless because as soon as they touch it, it turns into a light hammer. This means they can't treat them like ammo to draw them as they are hammers now. :P
Actually, that's not true. Monk of the Empty hand is proficient in shuriken only. Shuriken is the only exception to the improvised weapon rules Monks of the Empty hand use.
Actually, that's not true. Monk of the Empty hand is proficient in shuriken only. Shuriken is the only exception to the improvised weapon rules Monks of the Empty hand use.It is not about proficiency, for which I ask, but accessing weapon qualities.
True, to the Monk of the Empty Hand they mean nothing. In fact, the shuriken proficiency is meaningless because as soon as they touch it, it turns into a light hammer. This means they can't treat them like ammo to draw them as they are hammers now. :P
Where does it say that a Shuriken isn't a normal weapon? " A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons" It gives no exception to shurikens. If I've missed something like a FAQ, please point it out. As printed, the proficiency is meaningless...
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Where does it say that a Shuriken isn't a normal weapon? " A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons" It gives no exception to shurikens. If I've missed something like a FAQ, please point it out. As printed, the proficiency is meaningless...Actually, that's not true. Monk of the Empty hand is proficient in shuriken only. Shuriken is the only exception to the improvised weapon rules Monks of the Empty hand use.It is not about proficiency, for which I ask, but accessing weapon qualities.
True, to the Monk of the Empty Hand they mean nothing. In fact, the shuriken proficiency is meaningless because as soon as they touch it, it turns into a light hammer. This means they can't treat them like ammo to draw them as they are hammers now. :P
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Monk of the Empty Hand only applies on light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons. A shuriken does not appear on any of those three weapon lists. Combined with being proficient in shurikens, this indicates they are used normally.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
As written, shuriken turn into light hammers for monks of the empty hand. As intended, I think shuriken are supposed to function as shuriken, and all other weapons fall into the improvised categories.
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Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.As written, shuriken turn into light hammers for monks of the empty hand. As intended, I think shuriken are supposed to function as shuriken, and all other weapons fall into the improvised categories.
That only applies when you are using two-weapon fighting with them for the purposes of off-hand weapon penalties. That rules text does not mean that shuriken are light weapons.
Hmm, how would they treat ranged weapons like bows and crossbows if they obtained proficiency?
"a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff"
They would treat them as a quarterstaff.
That only applies when you are using two-weapon fighting with them for the purposes of off-hand weapon penalties. That rules text does not mean that shuriken are light weapons.Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.As written, shuriken turn into light hammers for monks of the empty hand. As intended, I think shuriken are supposed to function as shuriken, and all other weapons fall into the improvised categories.
So if a MotEH tries to TWF throw shurikens suddenly they turn into light hammers?
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So if a MotEH tries to TWF throw shurikens suddenly they turn into light hammers?That only applies when you are using two-weapon fighting with them for the purposes of off-hand weapon penalties. That rules text does not mean that shuriken are light weapons.Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.As written, shuriken turn into light hammers for monks of the empty hand. As intended, I think shuriken are supposed to function as shuriken, and all other weapons fall into the improvised categories.
No, they are only treating them as light for the purpose of TWF penalties. They are not light, and do not fall under the light hammer improvised weapon damage no matter what method they choose to use them in.
I remember there being language in 3.0/5 that allowed for some improvised weapons to have sensible properties (disarm on a chair was specifically pointed out, as was reach on a ladder I believe). Oddly, I'm only now noticing that Empty Hand doesn't grant anything like free Catch Off-guard at 1st...
When my pbp GM raised this issue and wanted my monk to take a -4 penalty for using improvised weapons, James Jacobs came to my rescue
No, they are only treating them as light for the purpose of TWF penalties. They are not light, and do not fall under the light hammer improvised weapon damage no matter what method they choose to use them in.
I agree with you but couldn't find rules text to support it. I think I have now.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light, one handed and two handed are only classifications for melee weapons. Shuriken are not melee weapons, so they are not light, one handed or two handed.
For TWF they are treated as if they were a light weapon, but that does not make them a light weapon.
Those categories aren't limited to melee. Firearms are listed as one or two handed for example. A coat pistol does acts as a club.
As to "RAW, shurikens aren't light weapons." Flurry works as if you are using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. That feat says to "Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner". SO when you flurry, you treat that as light (it doesn't say JUST for minuses). SO at best you still treat them as hammers in a flurry.
EDIT: Ah, I see. They can't flurry with shurikens, so you can't they can't be changed into improvised weapons by using it.
Hmm, you're right. They can use ranged weapons exactly as is, a ranged weapon. They would take the -4 non proficient penalty unless they gained proficiency, in which case they could use a ranged weapon as normal, because ranged weapons as you said are not light, one handed or two handed.
It would be weird that, even with proficiency, the Monk of the Empty Hand, could never fire a bow, or firearm.
How does this interact with the Equipment Tricks(Rope), that allow you to use a Rope as a Spiked Chain, or Whip?
Well they could never fire a gun but they could throw a one handed one as a club...
Let's assume that monk of the empty hand forever stops you from gaining proficiency in a weapon.
It doesn't stop you from gaining proficiency in a weapon.
It just stops you from ever wielding a weapon as anything other than an improvised hammer, improvised club, improvised quarterstaff, or perhaps weapons that are only ranged weapons and improvised somethings instead of improvised hammers, clubs, or quarterstaffs.
Maybe this falls under the Hexcrafter rule of RAW. If RAW is too completely ridiculous, it's written wrong. ;)
Clearly a better sentence would have been:
A monk of the empty hand only gains proficiency with shurikens.
That's my understanding of the proficiency bit. But it's quite explicit about the wielding of manufactured weapons as improvised weapons. It's not a good ruling, but it's definitely intentional.
Let's assume that monk of the empty hand forever stops you from gaining proficiency in a weapon. So what happens when a Gunslinger multiclasses into Monk of the Empty Hand? Do they then become unable to use a firearm or any other weapon?
Firearms are 'Ranged Weapons' the empty hand weapon swapping only effects 'Light', 'One Handed' and 'Two Handed' weapons. So it looks like the gunslinger of the empty hand is functional.
Are all improvised weapons incapable of being used as if they had reach?
Take, for example, the 10ft pole, which is, longer than a Longspear, yet, can only be used against adjacent opponents.
That, seems odd.
Yes it is. It is also RAW, or rather it is RAW that no described inpro-weapons have reach. There is room for a GM to state the 10' pole grants reach but nothing says they have to or that they cannot.
Let's assume that monk of the empty hand forever stops you from gaining proficiency in a weapon. So what happens when a Gunslinger multiclasses into Monk of the Empty Hand? Do they then become unable to use a firearm or any other weapon?Firearms are 'Ranged Weapons' the empty hand weapon swapping only effects 'Light', 'One Handed' and 'Two Handed' weapons. So it looks like the gunslinger of the empty hand is functional.
Wander over to the firearms section once. You'll see that ALL firearms are either one or two handed, triggering the empty hand weapon swapping. A gunslinger/Monk of the Empty Hand gets the awesome ability to throw pistols as clubs and the inability to ever fire them...
You are by strict raw correct Pathfinder establishes melee and ranged categories and the monk ignores them.
Booth the Ginfighter of the Empty Hand and the Magus of the empty hand are crippled combinations.
Pity the poor sword owned by a MotEH 1/Blackblade Magus 19. All that power, none of it accessible.
Is normal weapon ever defined. I could easily say magical weapons are not normal.
Isn't unarmed strike a light weapon. So this class wouldn't be proficient in that either.
Is normal weapon ever defined. I could easily say magical weapons are not normal.In context, it would seem that 'normal' weapons are weapons that are not 'improvised weapons'.
Which would further indicate that 'improvised weapons' are indeed weapons, just not 'normal' weapons, which is relevant for another thread on the board.
Of course, you're drawing a ruling from a class that quite literally cannot make any use of any weapon that isn't a hammer, club, quarterstaff, and maybe unarmed strike. Maybe.
More specifically, drawing a ruling that was written by a guy that wrote a class that cannot make use of any weapon.
Is normal weapon ever defined. I could easily say magical weapons are not normal.In context, it would seem that 'normal' weapons are weapons that are not 'improvised weapons'.
Which would further indicate that 'improvised weapons' are indeed weapons, just not 'normal' weapons, which is relevant for another thread on the board.
Of course, you're drawing a ruling from a class that quite literally cannot make any use of any weapon that isn't a hammer, club, quarterstaff, and maybe unarmed strike. Maybe.
More specifically, drawing a ruling that was written by a guy that wrote a class that cannot make use of any weapon.
I'm not 'drawing' anything, I'm suggesting a possible interpretation for the word 'normal'.
If you have an alternative explanation, feel free to present it.
No, I agree with your interpretation of "normal" in the context. I just am leery of applying that interpretation elsewhere, as it's founded out of some very dubiously-thought-out RAW.
Wander over to the firearms section once. You'll see that ALL firearms are either one or two handed, triggering the empty hand weapon swapping. A gunslinger/Monk of the Empty Hand gets the awesome ability to throw pistols as clubs and the inability to ever fire them...Let's assume that monk of the empty hand forever stops you from gaining proficiency in a weapon. So what happens when a Gunslinger multiclasses into Monk of the Empty Hand? Do they then become unable to use a firearm or any other weapon?Firearms are 'Ranged Weapons' the empty hand weapon swapping only effects 'Light', 'One Handed' and 'Two Handed' weapons. So it looks like the gunslinger of the empty hand is functional.Their categories are 'one handed firearms' and 'two handed firearms'. These may be considered different categories than 'one handed' weapons and 'two handed' weapons specified as the following:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Clearly 'this designation' does not apply to firearms, one- or two-handed. So then it just remains to be determined whether the empty handed monk is talking about the light, one-handed, and two-handed categories, or whether they are talking about any light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons in general.
The fact that they list 'light' along with one and two-handed indicates to me that they are talking about the melee weapon designation, and firearms wouldn't be covered.
The fact is the feature lacks the melee or ranged categories. As such, it's not in the RAW. Note the reply from Owen K. C. Stephens. It was "RAW, shurikens aren't light weapons" NOT ranged weapons don't apply to the feature.
As to, 'one handed firearms' and 'two handed firearms' may be considered different categories than 'one handed' weapons and 'two handed' weapons: They may be INTENDED to be different but nothing indicates this. Really, it's a consequence of the loose language that permeates the rules set. If there isn't a note saying two identically named things are different, the default SHOULD be that they mean the same thing. 'One Handed' should mean the same thing no matter what you attach it to.
EDIT: Look at Savage Technologist's ability, Sword and Gun. You two weapon fight with a firearm and a melee weapon. How do you figure out the minuses used if you don't follow the 'melee' category for it? (ei, treating one handed the SAME)
You are by strict raw correct Pathfinder establishes melee and ranged categories and the monk ignores them.
Booth the Ginfighter of the Empty Hand and the Magus of the empty hand are crippled combinations.
Pity the poor sword owned by a MotEH 1/Blackblade Magus 19. All that power, none of it accessible.
I think I've found the perfect way to corrupt wishes players make to Glabrezu Demons.
I think I've found the perfect way to corrupt wishes players make to Glabrezu Demons.You are by strict raw correct Pathfinder establishes melee and ranged categories and the monk ignores them.
Booth the Ginfighter of the Empty Hand and the Magus of the empty hand are crippled combinations.
Pity the poor sword owned by a MotEH 1/Blackblade Magus 19. All that power, none of it accessible.
Level 1 BB Kensai Magus wishes for ultimate power.
"Okay. You gain 19 levels."
::Player's face lights up in shock and joy::
"One level in MOTEH, 18 in Magus. Have fun."