my gm asked me to show him a link to the "new FAQ entry states that spell-like abilities count as the ability to cast spells for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes"
if you be so kind as to link it . my magicly tailed kitsune cleric will be oh so greatfull
my gm asked me to show him a link to the "new FAQ entry states that spell-like abilities count as the ability to cast spells for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes"
if you be so kind as to link it . my magicly tailed kitsune cleric will be oh so greatfull
Certainly. I'm honestly surprised that I forgot to link it within the guide itself. Here you go. I'll add that link to the FAQ section of the guide itself as well. I may not actually push any updates today, but it's been added to the offline copy. Actually, after re-reading that section, I've made some edits to the whole section for clarity.
Wow . . . that is a huge amount of work. But I vote for keeping the font size the same as most of the document (not the equipment section) has -- no sense of shortchanging yourself in showing how monumental the work is, or of shortchanging readers who have broken eye lenses (glasses/contacts do not fix). Besides, unless Google Docs does something really weird, the document shouldn't take up any more storage space for having medium font instead of small font.
I think a Prestige Class like this NEEDS a document that big.
Any thoughts on tweaks you'd like to see made to the Prestige Class itself (like say, for instance, in Pathfinder Unchained or one of its companions)?
I'm not sure what I would change, as this is still my favorite class by leaps and bounds, and I enjoy the complexity of it to a degree. I do want the class to be more accessible to the average gamer, though. The amount of knowledge and system mastery required to begin playing a mystic theurge is greater than virtually any other class, which makes it terrifying for new players and old alike, and drives many away from the concept. What's more, due to the somewhat shaky ground that it used to rest on before the SLA FAQ, it was quite difficult to play one and succeed in pathfinder while being anything but a toolbox character. In fact, when I first started out to write this guide and started asking about advice on optimizing the Mystic Theurge, the most consistent advice that I got was "Don't play one". Which was, obviously, unsatisfactory to me.
On that note, I am genuinely surprised that I have not seen more people disagreeing with me so far. I sent a rough draft of approximately half this length to a few people on the forums in July for proof reading and advice, and have been holding off for a more complete state until then, largely out of fear of what I saw as an inevitable backlash against an unpopular class.
I'm not sure why it was unpopular either. It has been my favorite class since the first time I saw it. I have played so many incarnations on mystic theurges, that it I can't tell if it is or isn't funny anymore, and the sample builds section merely hints at a few of the builds I intend to outline.
You may find this thread worth looking at. It expands on some of the combinations for a mystic theurge not covered in your guide.
Specifically, it addresses "I’m having an incredibly difficult time finding a circumstance in which I want to recommend Magus over literally any other option." This could be a magus 6+/cleric (negative energy/spontaneous inflict)/mystic theurge with the Broad Study arcana to expand the number of spells/spell slots available for Spell Combat/Spellstrike; it's a narrow focus, but can be effective in helping to address a common complaint against the magi's staying power (especially if the character gains heroism through Spell Blending or a domain to help mitigate the drop in BAB).
Additionally, even though mystic theurge is geared toward 9-level spellcasting classes, a paladin or ranger (or, with the ACG, a bloodrager) can provide some niche "builds."
{. . .}{. . .}
I think a Prestige Class like this NEEDS a document that big.Any thoughts on tweaks you'd like to see made to the Prestige Class itself (like say, for instance, in Pathfinder Unchained or one of its companions)?
I'm not sure what I would change, as this is still my favorite class by leaps and bounds, and I enjoy the complexity of it to a degree. I do want the class to be more accessible to the average gamer, though. The amount of knowledge and system mastery required to begin playing a mystic theurge is greater than virtually any other class, which makes it terrifying for new players and old alike, and drives many away from the concept. What's more, due to the somewhat shaky ground that it used to rest on before the SLA FAQ, it was quite difficult to play one and succeed in pathfinder while being anything but a toolbox character.
Now that I'm posting at a reasonable time instead of WAY after midnight, I can post (and in the first place have) some more thoughts on this.
While I actually overall DON'T like the Spell-Like Ability FAQ, some Prestige Classes need it to be viable, and Mystic Theurge is one of them. My house rule inclination would be to rule that Spell-Like Abilities DON'T substitute for spellcasting unless a Feat or Prestige Class specifically say that they do, but change Mystic Theurge to specifically allow 2nd (or higher) Level Spell-Like Abilities to substitute for 2nd level spellcasting. However, I also don't like that you HAVE to do this to make it viable, so I would also change Mystic Theurge to allow you in if both your Arcane and Divine spellcasting progressions are just 1 Level short of giving you normal 2nd Level spellcasting. This would enable builds where you actually use standard leveling for both spellcasting classes, thus being behind (depending upon the classes) only 2 & 2, 2 & 3, 3 & 2, or 3 & 3 in spellcasting progression even if you had NO Spell-Like Abilities.
In fact, when I first started out to write this guide and started asking about advice on optimizing the Mystic Theurge, the most consistent advice that I got was "Don't play one". Which was, obviously, unsatisfactory to me.
Honestly, that is probably still going to be the most common valid advice. But it is important to have this option for certain niches. For instance, your party might otherwise be lacking a full or 6/9 Arcane caster or a full or 6/9 Divine caster. (I still don't think the Mystic Theurge combinations using 6/9 spellcasting classes are going to work well with rules as currently written, and it the 4/9 spellcasting classes truly merit Red ratings even more -- more on that below -- but at least the options are there and described. Oh, and by the way, you also need to mark Bloodrager as Red.) Another niche would be where your 15 Minute Adventuring Day routinely turns into a 15 Hour Adventuring Day, but with the Spell Level and Caster Level requirements attentuated (otherwise you're just plain dead), and you need every last nickel and dime spell slot, so that even single-classed full casters and especially Witches, Unlettered Arcanists, or Bards just run out of gas (the latter three being the most straightforward ways of getting effectively a hybrid of Arcane and Divine, although Bard is limited and inefficient for this purpose and will run out of gas really fast if required to double as a healbot). To make the Mystic Theurge niche fit here, the situation must also require that Hexes aren't enough to pull through by themselves -- in that case, you probably want BOTH a Mystic Theurge and a single-classed Witch (or Shaman) in the party.
On that note, I am genuinely surprised that I have not seen more people disagreeing with me so far. I sent a rough draft of approximately half this length to a few people on the forums in July for proof reading and advice, and have been holding off for a more complete state until then, largely out of fear of what I saw as an inevitable backlash against an unpopular class.
I think a lot of people WANT Mystic Theurge to be able to work, but just didn't believe it is possible. You have shown ways that it can work, at least in the appropriate niches.
I'm not sure why it was unpopular either. It has been my favorite class since the first time I saw it. I have played so many incarnations on mystic theurges, that it I can't tell if it is or isn't funny anymore, and the sample builds section merely hints at a few of the builds I intend to outline.
I think Mystic Theurge was unpopular because people COULDN'T make it work. Keep in mind that even though this is one of the oldest Prestige Classes, dating back before Pathfinder itself, a lot of the stuff you have found to make it work didn't exist back then -- notably the ability to use Spell-Like Abilities for spellcasting requirements qualification, and various archetypes, as well as certain whole Base Classes (especially Oracle). While those things came out, they also included ways to do some of the stuff that Mystic Theurge would have done, although less so. The prime examples I'm thinking of are the Witch (officially Arcane, but Spell List is actually a good blend of Arcane and Divine), Magambyan Arcanist Prestige Class (Arcane with a bit of Divine), and Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle Archetype (Divine with a bit of Arcane); Arcanist has an Archetype that also does this. The ill-named "White Mage" Archetype of Arcanist does this a little bit (Arcane with a bit of Divine, although more specialized than those listed before); so does the Spirit Summoner (Arcane with a bit of Divine, but need to explore this more to be able to figure out just how much this gives you), and Spell Sage Archetype of Wizard (Arcane with an inefficient and highly limited bit of Divine).
Since 6/9 and especially 4/9 spellcasters depend upon other Class Features in addition to (or even more than) spells, they tend to get hurt when going into Prestige Classes in general (not just Mystic Theurge that advance spellcasting but not their other Class Features. I would like to change Prestige Classes in general to avoid penalizing them, but currently I am not sure what is the best way to do this without requiring a significant rewrite to everything.
{. . .} Keep in mind that even though this is one of the oldest Prestige Classes, dating back before Pathfinder itself, a lot of the stuff you have found to make it work didn't exist back then {. . .}
Another highly important thing (maybe even more important than the other stuff) is that Magical Knack did not exist until 2013, when Ultimate Campaign came out.
Speaking of which, why didn't Practiced Spellcaster make it into PF?
Dragonchess player, UnArcaneElection, I intend to respond to you both more fully. That will come shortly.
The next update is live. I have completed the improved familiar ratings for the core rulebook, as well as all of the wondrous items from the Advanced Player's guide. I have gone back and covered much of the items and feats from the advanced Race guide, and am approximately halfway completed with that book, with the intention of finishing it today.
Speaking of which, why didn't Practiced Spellcaster make it into PF?
It did... As a trait. Look up Magical Knack.
@Why people don't play MT build often:
MT builds tend to require A LOT of book keeping. You need to be aware of twice as many spell lists that possibly grow with each book published. Having to dig through for each spell, or make copies of each spell you have access to just in case you might need it... Can get annoying. Sometimes convenience and laziness account for class choices.
Also probably less of an issue, having to pay for spells to get them into your spell book (or equivalent) can get costly. PrC classes don't automatically provide spells as you level for wizards and the like. Especially as a "toolbox" type of caster who want a wide range of spells, this could push expenditures up quite a bit.
You may find this thread worth looking at. It expands on some of the combinations for a mystic theurge not covered in your guide.
**snip**
Additionally, even though mystic theurge is geared toward 9-level spellcasting classes, a paladin or ranger (or, with the ACG, a bloodrager) can provide some niche "builds."
That is fascinating and unique. I suppose I put my foot in my mouth a little bit earlier about judging potential combinations of classes earlier. My apologies for not replying sooner, but I wanted to follow through on what was in there, enjoy the holiday, and continue to write while motivation had hold of me. Would you mind terribly if I linked that thread from inside the guide? I think that it's something that people may find value in occasionally, and the idea of trying to incorporate this concept into the idea wearies me. I will likely link it from the paladin, ranger, and bloodrager sections of the class description section if you permit it.
In fact, when I first started out to write this guide and started asking about advice on optimizing the Mystic Theurge, the most consistent advice that I got was "Don't play one". Which was, obviously, unsatisfactory to me.Honestly, that is probably still going to be the most common valid advice. But it is important to have this option for certain niches.
I disagree with you here. I believe that the trade off that is occurring, being 1 or two levels of progression, over the life of the character, in exchange for an entire class worth of casting, is an exceedingly valuable deal. It makes some of the earliest levels a little rough, certainly, but when using early entry it can be no more painful to make than the decision to play a sorcerer over a wizard, and the benefit is much, much larger.
I think a lot of people WANT Mystic Theurge to be able to work, but just didn't believe it is possible. You have shown ways that it can work, at least in the appropriate niches.
I will readily admit to being one of those people who want this to work. I roughly 180 pages want this to work.
I think Mystic Theurge was unpopular because people COULDN'T make it work. Keep in mind that even though this is one of the oldest Prestige Classes, dating back before Pathfinder itself, a lot of the stuff you have found to make it work didn't exist back then -- notably the ability to use Spell-Like Abilities for spellcasting requirements qualification, and various archetypes, as well as certain whole Base Classes (especially Oracle).
This has been a problem for most of pathfinder's release. The classes and options that existed in 3.5 that could be used to quickly slip into mystic theurge in the earlier versions of D&D were notably absent here. Frankly, despite the power drop, that was likely a good thing for us all. Many of them required specific alignments or were prestige classes that progressed to 9th level spells over the course of only 10 levels. The mystic theurge was ripe for abuse back then. Pathfinder returned the mystic theurge to it's original position as a bit of a toolbox, but no powerhouse, which is only recently beginning to turn back around.
True enough, there are a plethora of archetypes that fill this role without sacrificing other class features. The Ancient Lorekeeper was quite powerful until the Paragon Surge faq. Personally, and admittedly this may be born entirely of preference, none of them ever went far enough. I don't want to be an oracle with a few wizard spells. I don't want to be a wizard that knows restoration. I want to explore the gap and the world between both realms of magic and become the mystic theurge. Besides, as you suggested yourself, none of them can handle the increased spells per day load of having to try and fill both roles consistently.
Another highly important thing (maybe even more important than the other stuff) is that Magical Knack did not exist until 2013, when Ultimate Campaign came out.
I'm afraid that's incorrect. Magical Knack is found in the new rules section of the Advanced Player's Guide, which was released in 2010. Admittedly, this is still not core, but it is as early as traits come for pathfinder.
Speaking of which, why didn't Practiced Spellcaster make it into PF?
While we did get Magical Knack, I would love for a feat version like Practiced Spellcaster, and usually allow it's use when I GM home games.
I suspect it has something to do with pathfinder attempting to encourage single class characters. What with the wide array of archetypes to help cover multiclass roles, and many of the classes offering fewer front-loaded bonuses.
@Why people don't play MT build often:
MT builds tend to require A LOT of book keeping. You need to be aware of twice as many spell lists that possibly grow with each book published. Having to dig through for each spell, or make copies of each spell you have access to just in case you might need it... Can get annoying. Sometimes convenience and laziness account for class choices.
That certainly makes sense enough. I suppose I would expect at least a few of the player's I see showing up with spreadsheets on their tablets to be willing to try it, though.
Do people think there would be value in an abbreviated guide? Currently the guide covers everything that either appears good and is good, appears bad and is good, or appears good and is bad, as well as a lot of tactical and moderate stuff that is not exclusive to theurges. I'm considering a revised and shortened version of the guide for after the guide is largely complete, which will strip out everything that is not recommended for usage from being listed at all. I'm not entirely sure how that would play out in terms of appearance and layout, but it may be more accessible to some readers.
That is fascinating and unique. I suppose I put my foot in my mouth a little bit earlier about judging potential combinations of classes earlier. My apologies for not replying sooner, but I wanted to follow through on what was in there, enjoy the holiday, and continue to write while motivation had hold of me. Would you mind terribly if I linked that thread from inside the guide? I think that it's something that people may find value in occasionally, and the idea of trying to incorporate this concept into the idea wearies me. I will likely link it from the paladin, ranger, and bloodrager sections of the class description section if you permit it.You may find this thread worth looking at. It expands on some of the combinations for a mystic theurge not covered in your guide.
**snip**
Additionally, even though mystic theurge is geared toward 9-level spellcasting classes, a paladin or ranger (or, with the ACG, a bloodrager) can provide some niche "builds."
Feel free to link or incorporate the thread into the guide. One of the issues I had (as I mentioned) was the lack of time to do a comprehensive analysis of the options, to include spell lists. I started looking at the spells available to a paladin/bard/mystic theurge, which showed some possible synergies. A look at the spell lists for a bloodrager/hunter, bloodrager/inquisitor, and bloodrager/warpriest (or even bloodrager/paladin or bloodrager/ranger, using early entry) might also have some useful combinations.
@Why people don't play MT build often:
MT builds tend to require A LOT of book keeping. You need to be aware of twice as many spell lists that possibly grow with each book published. Having to dig through for each spell, or make copies of each spell you have access to just in case you might need it... Can get annoying. Sometimes convenience and laziness account for class choices.
A mystic theurge (especially with two classes with prepared spells) can be very challenging from a bookkeeping aspect (speaking from experience). However, it can be done. I know at least a few people that habitually use two or three (or occasionally more) "standard" lists of prepared spells based on their expected activities for the day (i.e., wilderness, dungeon, or urban adventuring) that they tailor for specific environments/foes.
Also probably less of an issue, having to pay for spells to get them into your spell book (or equivalent) can get costly. PrC classes don't automatically provide spells as you level for wizards and the like. Especially as a "toolbox" type of caster who want a wide range of spells, this could push expenditures up quite a bit.
Craft Wondrous Item is a great feat in campaigns that allow PC magic item creation. A mystic theurge (drawing on two spell lists) can use it to even more effect (as there is less chance of needing the +5 to DC for not having a required spell). If a mystic theurge that uses a spellbook isn't crafting their own blessed book at the earliest opportunity, they are definitely spending more gold than they should.
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Personally, I would think that when people are getting into a PrC like Mystic Theurge that they should come in with the thought of the guide being a long and in-depth guide (to which I think you dedicated yourself to making a rather thorough version of). IMO, if they do not want to read an in-depth guide then they should not play a character that nearly requires an equal amount of book keeping to play.
I'd keep the guide shorter rather than longer -- a huge list of things that are "meh, you don't want to take this" only gets in the way. If I wanted to read a description and evaluation of every feat ever made, I wouldn't need a guide at all.
"True excellence comes, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
^Yeah, don't abbreviate the Eiffel Tower . . . unless you're doing so in order to make THIS.
Great work here
i just wanted to add that a human could get arcane to with Racial heritage and spider step feat from the drow race
Good catch. I actually just added that. I'm adding the feats and items from the Advanced Race Guide to the offline copy at this very moment. that update should go live this evening.
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So here's another post on formatting. (The main reason I'm posting this so much is just to try and aid the readability of this guide, since it's so massive).
I'd suggest using a section-based guide, to help deal with loading issues and such, similar to Tark's Guide to the Cleric (linked below).
Tark's Guide
By splitting it into separate sections, you save a fair bit on organization, as well as helping to solve the loading issue that you were having.
I'd suggest(numbers refer to your table of contents):
(1-3): Place this in the main section, putting the links either near the bottom or in a "right column" on the first page to give those who read this multiple times an easy path to the links while not looking too bad.
(4-10, 14-15): Race and Class choices, generally works well together, gives a section for the chassis of a character. You could possibly split this further if you continue to have loading problems.
(11-12): Feats and Traits, the fun add-ons to a character.
(13): Equipment set up, all the nice bells and whistles.
(16): Sample Builds, set apart from the rest.
It should help with loading, and the link setup should help with reading as well, giving it a more compartmentalized appearance.
One other thing I'd suggest is establishing more of the differences between spell lists. Basically just a detailing of which spell lists possess different spells that the other spell lists don't have access to. (e.g. Clerics get X spells that Druids and co. don't get, etc.)
So here's another post on formatting. (The main reason I'm posting this so much is just to try and aid the readability of this guide, since it's so massive).
I'd suggest using a section-based guide, to help deal with loading issues and such, similar to Tark's Guide to the Cleric (linked below).
Tark's GuideBy splitting it into separate sections, you save a fair bit on organization, as well as helping to solve the loading issue that you were having.
I'd suggest(numbers refer to your table of contents):
(1-3): Place this in the main section, putting the links either near the bottom or in a "right column" on the first page to give those who read this multiple times an easy path to the links while not looking too bad.
(4-10, 14-15): Race and Class choices, generally works well together, gives a section for the chassis of a character. You could possibly split this further if you continue to have loading problems.
(11-12): Feats and Traits, the fun add-ons to a character.
(13): Equipment set up, all the nice bells and whistles.
(16): Sample Builds, set apart from the rest.It should help with loading, and the link setup should help with reading as well, giving it a more compartmentalized appearance.
One other thing I'd suggest is establishing more of the differences between spell lists. Basically just a detailing of which spell lists possess different spells that the other spell lists don't have access to. (e.g. Clerics get X spells that Druids and co. don't get, etc.)
Duly noted. I like the idea of breaking it up into sub sections, and I'll see about the best way to do that once I finish the items in Ultimate Equipment. I agree that this is important, as uploading the various edits is getting dangerously slow, to the point where I worry google docs will start dumping changes.
I do want to go into some more detail on spell lists, but I'm currently debating precisely how I want to do that. I've considered outlining the exact overlaps between each classes spell list, or maintaining a level of distance and just describing the strengths and focuses of each spell list. I'll put some thought into the goals and formats of each as I move forward. As usual, if anyone else has any comments that may help, I welcome them.
On that note. The next edit is live. This edit includes all of the racial feats and items from the ARG. All wondrous items and item enchantments from UC and UM, familiar and improved familiar additions from ultimate magic, and finally some skald ratings.
i can only applaud your dedication (and thoroughness!).
Hi,
I'd like to suggest not bothering with spell analysis. That has been done to death in guide after guide, with the usual discussions about healing, control, sr, blasting/dazing, etc.
Instead, accumulating a trove of diverse MT builds that include the spells that make them shine and a discussion of why/how seems more valuable.
After all, I think the greatest enlightenment an MT guide can provide is to show the many different kinds of characters that can be built.
So, rather than analyzing illusion spells we get an illusionist MT or maybe 2, rather than another discussion about Summon X we get a summoning MT, and so on.
Anyway,
Ken
I heard this sentiment a lot today from my local PFS community as well. I'm currently gathering opinions on specifically what focuses they're most interested in seeing and working outwards from there. I have a lot of builds that are, largely, completed. They simply need ironing out, fitting into the wealth by level curve, and snapshots put together for their 5th, 10th, and 15th level character sheets. Given the sheer number of people asking for sample builds to be moved up in priority, I'm going to go ahead and start work on those next.
I'd actually like to see, instead of a breakdown of spells, a comparison of spell lists.
Specifically, overlaps between the sorcerer/wizard list and the cleric/oracle list would help when choosing prohibited spells and domain selection if you're playing a wizard/cleric MT, especially if you're going for a sin magic wizard or a theologian or ecclesitheurge cleric.
It also would help if you have only a handful of spells to choose from a spontaneous caster to make sure the ones you do choose don't at all overlap with a prepared caster's list.
So here's another post on formatting. {. . .}
I'd suggest using a section-based guide, to help deal with loading issues and such, similar to Tark's Guide to the Cleric (linked below).
Tark's Guide
Except DON'T use a light green like in that example -- the contrast of light green in that guide (and in many guides also light blue/cyan) is terrible on the white background, even when text is selected. Stick with the darker green like you have now.
(Web pages and the like with bad text contrast are one of my pet peeves, especially when big companies like Blizzard Entertainment make them.)
also eyeburn is painful.
Any thoughts on giving Half-Elf a boost for the potential for Multitalented Mastery allowing you to treat Mystic Theurge (as well as your 2 Base Classes) as a Favored Class? Reportedly this Feat overcomes the normal prohibition on Prestige Classes having Favored Class Bonuses.
Apologies if you already put this into your guide after the last time I looked at it.
I'll try to take a look at the spell lists and point out the major differences. I do agree that it's not necessary to do a full breakdown of spell lists (looking at each level and such), but the major differences should be looked at. Mostly just pointing out the major synergies and how they can be advantageous. You already do this to some extent, pointing out some synergies (like the Summon Nature's Ally and Starlight Summons), but I feel like it might need a couple more details. Maybe pointing out stuff that gives you a lot of synergy (like the ability to take Starlight Summons and such for a Conjuration Wizard+Druid), but otherwise I feel getting all of the spells figured out becomes really difficult.
Any thoughts on giving Half-Elf a boost for the potential for Multitalented Mastery allowing you to treat Mystic Theurge (as well as your 2 Base Classes) as a Favored Class? Reportedly this Feat overcomes the normal prohibition on Prestige Classes having Favored Class Bonuses.
Apologies if you already put this into your guide after the last time I looked at it.
I hadn't put that in there, I had actually missed the possibility of this overcoming limitations on prestige classes being unable to be favored classes. It will be added in the next update.
On the note of the next update. I suffered a hard drive failure yesterday morning, and lost a great deal of notes. I'm still working on the sample builds, but progress has been slowed somewhat. I am, however, very glad that most of my efforts are backed up online and on external drives.
Despite the setback, I will hopefully get the beginning of the first wave of of sample builds online in the next few days with the intention being to include at least three summoning builds, two illusion builds, two evocation builds, two battlefield control builds, a buffer, a necromancer, and two toolbox support theurges.
{. . .}
On the note of the next update. I suffered a hard drive failure yesterday morning, and lost a great deal of notes. I'm still working on the sample builds, but progress has been slowed somewhat. I am, however, very glad that most of my efforts are backed up online and on external drives.
{. . .}
Ouch -- I feel your pain. I make it a point to back up everything important frequently (at work I back up in QUADRUPLICATE) -- I have had the experience of double (actually 1.5X) hard drive failure (spread across 2 computers). (Speaking of which, I have really got to get a new computer . . .)
"Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast."
The Dual Spontaneous casting entry(like Sorcerer/Oracle) is actually worth being red because they can't use Combined spells at all.
"Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast."The Dual Spontaneous casting entry(like Sorcerer/Oracle) is actually worth being red because they can't use Combined spells at all.
While I agree that it's not ideal in most circumstances, I left this as orange as this faq specifies that we can still use combined spells with dually spontaneous theurges. This will be made more clear in the next update.
Besides, the advantage of being SAD in a multiclass role is not to be underestimated, especially in 15-point buy, or "I hate my players mode", AKA, 10-point.
I wouldn't give it higher than orange, though, just 'cause it takes so long to come online as a decent caster.
While I agree that it's not ideal in most circumstances, I left this as orange as this faq specifies that we can still use combined spells with dually spontaneous theurges. This will be made more clear in the next update."Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast."The Dual Spontaneous casting entry(like Sorcerer/Oracle) is actually worth being red because they can't use Combined spells at all.
I hadn't seen that one. Nice!
So, first, thank you for writing this guide. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a problem though. I moved recently and only play PFS now as I don't have a home group anymore. This guide is really unhelpful to actually making a PFS character nowadays. Aasimar and Tiefling are no longer available, Half-Elf has its SLA's banned and I doubt that anything you can get with racial heritage will work. So I'm stuck reading a guide that says that some thing like Oracle 1/Wizard 3/MT X is really suboptimal, when it is the only viable way to even make the class work in PFS. I sometimes think that the PFS leadership reads all the guides and decides what to ban, though I have no idea how any of it gets decided other than what the public is told.
So, first, thank you for writing this guide. I enjoyed reading it. I do have a problem though. I moved recently and only play PFS now as I don't have a home group anymore. This guide is really unhelpful to actually making a PFS character nowadays. Aasimar and Tiefling are no longer available, Half-Elf has its SLA's banned and I doubt that anything you can get with racial heritage will work. So I'm stuck reading a guide that says that some thing like Oracle 1/Wizard 3/MT X is really suboptimal, when it is the only viable way to even make the class work in PFS. I sometimes think that the PFS leadership reads all the guides and decides what to ban, though I have no idea how any of it gets decided other than what the public is told.
Tengu can still use Long-Nose Form for early access, and Humans can use racial heritage to get the same feat. Apart from that, I understand the sentiment. I play a lot of PFS as well, and I intend to have at least half of the sample builds that I introduce be PFS legal, or at least easily modified to become pfs legal. In cases where they are not PFS legal, there will be notes on what to change to make them legal. I'm actually playing a theurge in PFS now, and have another one waiting for the next wave of low level tables.
I don't mean to dismiss your frustration, some of the rulings in PFS don't exactly make this easier for us. My goal is to make theurging as easy and fun as possible for everyone.
As an aside note, don't all these PFS-specific bans of noticeable pieces of Pathfinder's own rules (even Core rules) suggest that something needs fixing more generally?
Should.... should I FAQ that post?
;)
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As an aside note, don't all these PFS-specific bans of noticeable pieces of Pathfinder's own rules (even Core rules) suggest that something needs fixing more generally?
I've mentioned something similar in a rant against PFS in the past...it was along the lines of "You guys run PFS, you guys designed the game; why don't you design stuff that you yourself don't think is broken?"
I want to read this rant. Post it immediately, please.
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Angry, would you (or any of the other Mystic Theurge experts on this thread) be willing to help out this kitsune mystic theurge who is looking for help? There are so many details involved in making this prestige class work that I don't feel I can provide good advice to him.
Hmm
I've mentioned something similar in a rant against PFS in the past...it was along the lines of "You guys run PFS, you guys designed the game; why don't you design stuff that you yourself don't think is broken?"As an aside note, don't all these PFS-specific bans of noticeable pieces of Pathfinder's own rules (even Core rules) suggest that something needs fixing more generally?
While they're both working for Paizo, the group that runs PFS and the group that writes the books are two entirely different sets of people. The book writers don't seem to consult the PFS runners when writing.
@Saldiven: Your best bet for a divine charisma caster is an oracle. You'll have to do a bit of reflavoring but it would work.
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I've actually seriously looked at that option, but none of the curses seem to mesh well with the idea of a ravishingly lovely woman that charms people with her wit and personality. Maybe Deaf would work, but I'd worry about her ability to effectively communicate with people.
@Saldiven: Your best bet for a divine charisma caster is an oracle. You'll have to do a bit of reflavoring but it would work.
Two ideas:
Maybe a bit less "wit and personality" and more "super manipulative" but they could certainly be reworked.
I've actually seriously looked at that option, but none of the curses seem to mesh well with the idea of a ravishingly lovely woman that charms people with her wit and personality. Maybe Deaf would work, but I'd worry about her ability to effectively communicate with people.
@Saldiven: Your best bet for a divine charisma caster is an oracle. You'll have to do a bit of reflavoring but it would work.
haunted and/or legalistic would work great off the top of my head.
haunted is fairly harmless and grants extra spells, and legalistic is basically MADE for manipulators--just watch for/make loopholes in any deals you make.