...does it look easier to produce a NPC or Monster Codex than a Bestiary?
Pick a PC race or monster, slap a class, rince and repeat. Monsters? you have to think of just about everything from the ground up.
So, for those who are asking for another Bestiary, looks to me that this will have to wait for a while longer, while a Codex can be whipped up in a relatively short time. Granted for a monster codex, you need extra archetypes, items and one monster per creature clan, but still...
The monster codex is more involved than an NPC codex, but I doubt either of them is easy since Paizo provides flavor and statblocks. With the monster codes they also have new feats, and archetypes also, and yes I agree that a bestiary is likely more difficult then either of the two. Classed monsters are also nice to have around that are predone. I also dont think we need a bestiary every year even though I do enjoy them.
There is something to be said for 3rd party source material. Bestiarys to be sure since that is the topic but all can provide great inspiration for a home brew game. Bestiaries are great to use for the groups full of experienced, jaded players. Throw something different from another d20 supplement and they will fight it with no prior knowledge as it should be
My first thought is that 3rd party publishers, or good Homebrew creators, are very capable of making a good NPC Codex, much more so than a Bestiary that only Paizo can likely produce a good addition to.
On the other hand, I can certainly see a case to be made for the view that we already have so many monster types that adding more shouldn't be a priority.
I am capable of doing it(NPC codex). It is mostly just statblock and flavor, and I am not even a publisher, but that does not mean people are going to accept a 3rd party _____, so Paizo is giving it to us.
Also Paizo does use 3rd party monsters in their AP's so I doubt that Paizo is the only company capable of making suitable monsters.
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From a freelancer's perspective, it's actually quite the opposite, and a far cry from "slap a class, rinse and repeat" or "less involved" than our usual Bestiary work.
In fact, I know myself and many freelancers prefer to build from the ground up.
That's because building a monster with NPC classes is actually twice the effort. Even pre-existing monsters have to be plugged into the in-house Paizo statblock spreadsheet, so you essentially have to rebuild the monster from the ground up anyway, even if the info is already published in the base statblock.
Then you have to apply NPC levels, and make sure you use all the proper advancement rules and get the right Key Classes and, in the case of monsters with pre-existing spellcasting abilities, make sure that everything lines up and gels just so. Skills are always confusing, too. It's actually one of the less pleasant freelancing tasks, and I much prefer to build a monster from the ground up than modify an existing one. And it's twice the workload on the development side, too--the developers have to make sure the freelancer plugged in the base monster correctly, AND applied the class levels properly.
I know that's not how we all do it at home, but when you're building a book to be published, from both the freelancer and design team perspective, it's hardly a matter of 'just slapping a few class levels on 'em' and sending them off to the printer.
I'm still fresh to GMing, and so I agree with the sentiment that there are plenty of monsters available through the bestiaries. The issue comes however when you've got a group of players, and want to provide a variety of enemies that can legitimately be seen to be working together, such as those found in the Monster Codex, at a point when players are not the right APL to be facing such creatures. Adding a variety of roles that each monster can fill through class levels gives tactical options to the GM, which in turn means the players are led to actually cooperate and plan in order to succeed as well.
There's a tedium to adding class levels/advancing monsters, but not difficulty. I'm just plain immensely happy to have had the monster codex when my group staged a daring raid on a kobold mine.
The monster codex also has additional feats, entirely new monsters, spells, and archetypes in it.
Those 20 new monsters don't make up for the 300+ new monsters you would get in a new bestiary.
And most of the new monsters were just other versions, see the bugbear shadow, the lizardmen, ogre/troll and the new troll monsters. I didn't really like any of the new monsters in monster codex spare for the beetles.
I did like many of the old monsters though, mainly the new kobolds, Goblins, boggards and lizardmen.
I'm not saying it's the same thing. I'm saying it has a lot of effort put into it. That also being said I enjoy that it helps build adventures for you by pointing out where encounters would logically string together. The bestiares are the raw materials, the Monster Codexes are the tools to put them together. The NPC codex is prefab stuff that is mostly for those who are either bad at or don't like to use tools.
A good way of putting it. The Monster Codex provides an avenue of logical progression in how to increase the CR while sticking to the same set of monsters that fit with the theme of the adventure.
The Bestiaries however do have the edge in that a good chunk of the monsters are basically reprints from APs, CS, and other sources.
NO clue if we are getting a Bestiary 5 next year or some other book. The introduction of psychic magic may require a new Bestiary; on the other hand, I could also see a greater need for a NPC codex 2. And they could create some sort of third GM source book option we hadn't considered.
From a freelancer's perspective, it's actually quite the opposite, and a far cry from "slap a class, rinse and repeat" or "less involved" than our usual Bestiary work.
In fact, I know myself and many freelancers prefer to build from the ground up.
That's because building a monster with NPC classes is actually twice the effort. Even pre-existing monsters have to be plugged into the in-house Paizo statblock spreadsheet, so you essentially have to rebuild the monster from the ground up anyway, even if the info is already published in the base statblock.
Then you have to apply NPC levels, and make sure you use all the proper advancement rules and get the right Key Classes and, in the case of monsters with pre-existing spellcasting abilities, make sure that everything lines up and gels just so. Skills are always confusing, too. It's actually one of the less pleasant freelancing tasks, and I much prefer to build a monster from the ground up than modify an existing one. And it's twice the workload on the development side, too--the developers have to make sure the freelancer plugged in the base monster correctly, AND applied the class levels properly.
I know that's not how we all do it at home, but when you're building a book to be published, from both the freelancer and design team perspective, it's hardly a matter of 'just slapping a few class levels on 'em' and sending them off to the printer.
Thanks for the behind the scenes look. I did not know that all NPC went through that monster stat checker that Paizo has.
...does it look easier to produce a NPC or Monster Codex than a Bestiary?
Pick a PC race or monster, slap a class, rince and repeat. Monsters? you have to think of just about everything from the ground up.
So, for those who are asking for another Bestiary, looks to me that this will have to wait for a while longer, while a Codex can be whipped up in a relatively short time. Granted for a monster codex, you need extra archetypes, items and one monster per creature clan, but still...
Wasn't a good portion of Bestiary 3 and 4 simple reprinting monsters created for the APs? And lest anyone thinks I'm saying that's not hardworking, it is. Although it allows Paizo to split the development cost across 2 books and from a fan perspective it's good value for those who don't buy every single AP.
The main question is: Did you get value from either the NPC or monster codex? If no, then don't buy any further ones. For me the NPC codex is very little value for money so I didn't get it. The monster codex however looks like it could be good so I'm planning on getting it. That said I wouldn't expect either a Bestiary or codex for 2014. They've already got 3 hardcovers with Occult Adventures having a bestiary included in it.
...does it look easier to produce a NPC or Monster Codex than a Bestiary?
Pick a PC race or monster, slap a class, rince and repeat. Monsters? you have to think of just about everything from the ground up.
So, for those who are asking for another Bestiary, looks to me that this will have to wait for a while longer, while a Codex can be whipped up in a relatively short time. Granted for a monster codex, you need extra archetypes, items and one monster per creature clan, but still...
Wasn't a good portion of Bestiary 3 and 4 simple reprinting monsters created for the APs? And lest anyone thinks I'm saying that's not hardworking, it is. Although it allows Paizo to split the development cost across 2 books and from a fan perspective it's good value for those who don't buy every single AP.
The main question is: Did you get value from either the NPC or monster codex? If no, then don't buy any further ones. For me the NPC codex is very little value for money so I didn't get it. The monster codex however looks like it could be good so I'm planning on getting it. That said I wouldn't expect either a Bestiary or codex for 2014. They've already got 3 hardcovers with Occult Adventures having a bestiary included in it.
What percentage is a "good portion" to you?
From a freelancer's perspective, it's actually quite the opposite, and a far cry from "slap a class, rinse and repeat" or "less involved" than our usual Bestiary work.
In fact, I know myself and many freelancers prefer to build from the ground up.
That's because building a monster with NPC classes is actually twice the effort. Even pre-existing monsters have to be plugged into the in-house Paizo statblock spreadsheet, so you essentially have to rebuild the monster from the ground up anyway, even if the info is already published in the base statblock.
Then you have to apply NPC levels, and make sure you use all the proper advancement rules and get the right Key Classes and, in the case of monsters with pre-existing spellcasting abilities, make sure that everything lines up and gels just so. Skills are always confusing, too. It's actually one of the less pleasant freelancing tasks, and I much prefer to build a monster from the ground up than modify an existing one. And it's twice the workload on the development side, too--the developers have to make sure the freelancer plugged in the base monster correctly, AND applied the class levels properly.
I know that's not how we all do it at home, but when you're building a book to be published, from both the freelancer and design team perspective, it's hardly a matter of 'just slapping a few class levels on 'em' and sending them off to the printer.
And even then, with your spreadsheets you STILL get math wrong that the players have to fix. Sometimes automating something isn't always a good thing. >.>
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And even then, with your spreadsheets you STILL get math wrong that the players have to fix. Sometimes automating something isn't always a good thing. >.>
Are you suggesting it would be *better* if Paizo didn't have those checks and safeguards in place? Because if you think you've got problems now...
The main question is: Did you get value from either the NPC or monster codex? If no, then don't buy any further ones. For me the NPC codex is very little value for money so I didn't get it. The monster codex however looks like it could be good so I'm planning on getting it. That said I wouldn't expect either a Bestiary or codex for 2014. They've already got 3 hardcovers with Occult Adventures having a bestiary included in it.
Yes, I got my value out of the $10 I spent on it... the PDF file is cheaper than the retail book.
I'm not sounding as if either codex is cheaper in terms of quality materials, I'm just asking if making a codex is actually cheaper to make in terms of time and money compared to a bestiary.
Like I said, the guys at Paizo can "simply" take 20 other monsters, slap in class levels and voilà, here's Monster Codex 2. They can also take a class, make 20 characters each and voilà, here's NPC Codex 2.
A bestiary? Good luck getting that same amount of stat blocks with the same delays, not to mention that a codex doesn't need playtests or rule checks.
are all the monsters playtested? I kind of doubt that
And anyway, I don't think it's nearly that simple to design NPC's. Spellcasters need to have their spell list carefuly compiled. And not all monsters really work with doing a monster codex approach. You really need to create a book that mostly uses monsters that form societies, and ideally monsters that would see heavy use in a wide variety of games. The first codex did a great job of that, but a Monster Codex 2 might run into issues of deciding what monsters to use.
are all the monsters playtested? I kind of doubt that
Well, they can't just make a monster and hop that they are balanced for a game, pretty sure a playtested is issued between the people at Paizo to test them out.
And anyway, I don't think it's nearly that simple to design NPC's. Spellcasters need to have their spell list carefuly compiled. And not all monsters really work with doing a monster codex approach. You really need to create a book that mostly uses monsters that form societies, and ideally monsters that would see heavy use in a wide variety of games. The first codex did a great job of that, but a Monster Codex 2 might run into issues of deciding what monsters to use.
Oh believe me, there are still LOOOOOOOOOOOTS of monsters that can be used in a 2nd codex. I saw 2 topics about listing 20 other monsters, and they're not done with them. They can easily do 2 more, if not 3 codes if they wished.
potentially yes, although I feel like there is less agreement, and a lot of people can't quite figure out a full 20.
- Centaurs
- Cyclops
- Dark ones (creepers, stalkers, slayers, callers, dancers)
- Derros
- Hill giants
- Stone giants
- Harpies
- Merfolks
- Locathahs
- Tritons
- Catfolks
- Shaes
- Tanukis
- Changelings
- Gathlains
- Shobhads
- Trox
- Wayangs
- Wyrwoods
- Wyvarans
Boom...
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The monster codex is more involved than an NPC codex, but I doubt either of them is easy since Paizo provides flavor and statblocks.
Meh. People keep saying this, but the amount of flavor provided in both Codexes is pretty low, in my opinion. They are big books of stat blocks, with a tiny bit of flavor sprinkled onto some of the stat blocks. Maybe 1 in 4 or so.
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The NPC codex has very little flavor overall, at least compared to a regular Bestiary.
I would say the monster codex has a higher amount, since there each creature gets a two page flavor introduction.
The monster codex is more involved than an NPC codex, but I doubt either of them is easy since Paizo provides flavor and statblocks.Meh. People keep saying this, but the amount of flavor provided in both Codexes is pretty low, in my opinion. They are big books of stat blocks, with a tiny bit of flavor sprinkled onto some of the stat blocks. Maybe 1 in 4 or so.
I am not saying every build should have a life story since they are still generic builds for those creature types, but I guess it depends on what you expect from the book. If you want detail on their ecology, religion, and so on then a complete book based on that monster would be better for it such as ____ of Golarion.
And even then, with your spreadsheets you STILL get math wrong that the players have to fix. Sometimes automating something isn't always a good thing. >.>Are you suggesting it would be *better* if Paizo didn't have those checks and safeguards in place? Because if you think you've got problems now...
The thing is though, is that the program is only as smart as the people operating it. If you don't at least do a cursory glance at the numbers before you input them, you're gonna have trouble. All I have to do is go to any given Bestiary errata thread on this board for proof.
I absolutely understand that the Paizo staff is human, and that humans make errors. But as a player and a customer it's kind of annoying when it feels like Paizo only does the bare minimum amount of QA for its number-crunching and lets the players handle the rest, like we're some sort of free QA team.