Cinamatic Combat Manuever Specialist Advice

[RyanH]

Ok … so I am trying to build a character that fights with a combination of unarmed strikes, disarms, trips, along with his primary weapon. I see him taking opponents weapons through disarm and using them against his foes, etc. I would like to build something "cinematic". Not looking to optimize, but rather have fun and have many options as to what he can do.

The main feats I am interested in are feats that allow him to react to other actions through aoo's such as the panther Style feat chain (get free attacks based off of other's AOOs), and the snake style feat chain (late in the chain - get extra attacks if you crit and when opponent misses you.)

I am thinking Fighter Lore Warden as it gives plenty of feats and bonuses to CMB.

The current build I have looks like (20 point)

STR: 16
DEX: 14 (Raised at 4 and 8 to gain AC and an extra AOO)
CON: 10
Int: 13 for improved Combat Maneuvers (Gets expertise without prereq, but does not say you get improved combat maneuvers without int)
Wis: 15 for snake style feat chain
Char: 10

I don't like to dump.
I don't want to give up weapon focus/mastery as that is his primary form of attack, the combat maneuvers are for fun.

Human - Vudrani
1- Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed, Panther Style
2- Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
3- Improved Trip
4- Panther Claw Dex 15
5- Panther Parry
6- Vicious Stomp (Or dirty Fighter)
7- Snake style
8- Snake Side Wind DEX - 15 (4 AOOs) (
9- Snake Fang (Can't take before 9)
10- Combat style Master
11- Greater Disarm

Traits are - This is for Serpant's Skull
- Mwangi Scholar
- Martial Manuscript

Other possible feats
Viscous Stomp
Improved Dirty Fighter
Toughness
Whirl wind attack ...
All the other maneuvers, bull rush, drag, etc)

Anyone have any thoughts to make this, not necessarily optimized, but MORE FUN to play. I love having options every round, not just picking the optomized attack. It's why I like panther and snake styles, giving extra attacks based on AOO or an opponent missing, I would not feel bad "wasting" that on a dirty trick for instance.

Again, his sword is his main weapon, so what weapon feats should be snuck in (or added after level 11)?

(I don't think it's viable given the need to boost CMB as much as possible but some mix with inquisitor could be good given the Snake Style synergies with the inquisitor's sense motive.)

Thanks!

[Scott Wilhelm]

Is it PFS? That changes my advice.

I can share my PFS build that is not unlike yours

Tengu with Claws

ST 14
In 13
Wis 13
Dex 16
Con 13
CH 10

(The ability scores are from memory I might have gotten the point-build thing a little off.)

1Ranger1: Freebooter, Weapon Focus Claws
2R1Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Snake Style
3R1M2: Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes
4R1M2Fighter1: Feral Combat Training Claws
5R1M3F1: Maneuver Training, Monastic Legacy
6R2M3F1: Improved Natural Attack Claws

So this character will get 2claws, a bite, and an unarmed strike with each full attack ction. At Level 1, the Claws will do 1d4, at level 4, 1d6, at level 5, 1d8, and at level 6, 2d6. With Feral Combat Training, not only will they do Monk Unarmed Damage (1 size up with INA), this character can also make the Attacks of Opportunity with those claws. With Combat Reflexes, Snake Fang, and a dex of 16, we are talking about 5 more attacks per round. 1 AoO + 3 with Combat Reflexes +1 Immediate Action Attack.

You said you wanted to make your main weapon a sword, you if you went with something like this, it might make sense for you to not take the Claws Trait and keep the Swordtrained Trait instead. You will be proficient in all swords. I recommend Bastard sword. You can do the Snake Fang, Feral Combat Training, Monastic Legacy, Improved Natural Attack thing with the Tengu Bite Attack instead. You could use Bastard Sword and Shield, which would make a lot of sense because optimizing Snake Fang works best with maximizing your AC.

I abandoned the idea of Panther Style feats with this build because I found myself wanting to dip into Alchemist. With 1 level of Alchemist, you can pop a Dex Mutagen that increases your AC by 3 points and gives you 2 extra Attacks of Opportunity/round. But that comes at the cost of 2 points of Wisdom, so Panther Claw and Snake Fang would sort of work against each other.

So, what I want to do next is 2 levels in White Haired Witch to get constrict then take Final Embrace to grant Grab and Constrict to all my Natural Attacks: 2 claws, 1 bite, hair (or plume, I guess for a Tengu), and 1 Monk Unarmed Strike, plus 4 attacks of opportunity and an immediate action attack, of course. The Constrict Damage will be the Claw Damage. Wear Armor Spikes, too and you will do armor spike damage every time, too. Releasing your opponent from a grapple is a Free Action which can be done in conjunction of other actions. While you could prosecute the Grapple if you wanted, early on at least I'd keep the Grabbing catch-and-release to wrack up the Constrict and Armor Spike damage.

But you didn't say anything about developing Grappling. You mentioned Tripping. Most people who do Tripping builds like Trip weapons with reach, like whips and polearms, but you want your sword to be your main weapon. I do still recommend Tripping Weapons, so I suggest a sickle or kama. The thing people hate most about sickles is the thing I like most: they are cheap light weapons that do dinky damage. The neat thing about tripping weapons is that if you get tripped by your own trip attempt, you can elect to drop your trip weapon rather than get tripped yourself. But if your trip weapon is some kind of awesomely enchanted halberd or something, you are really going to miss that weapon when it's gone. If it's a sickle you drop, you just shrug your shoulders and pull out another sickle off your belt.

One advantage of being a multiclassed MOMS Monk using Snake Fang, Sword, and Sickles for tripping is that now you have a real use for the Combat Expertise Feat: raising your AC make those AoOs more likely and will result in more damage/round. Then take Improved and Great trip, of course. You mentioned Vicious Stomp: that's a good one. I'd add to your list Fury's Fall, which lets you add both your Dex and St Mod to your Trip CMB, and Punishing Kick, which works a little bit like Stunning Fist, except that instead of making your opponent Stunned, you make him Prone. The reason why I suggest this is that Tripping as a size limit. You can't Trip anyone who is more than 1 size bigger than you unless you are a Dwarf with certain feats fighting Giants or if you are Goblin with the Tangle Feet Feat. Punishing Kick has no size limit. Neither does Grappling, by the way.

Take 2 weapon. Then lead with the sickle if you can to Trip your opponent. Use Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip to hit them as they go down, and hit them with your Bastard Sword while they are down. The -2 penalty for 2 weapon fighting will be well-offset by the -4 they take when they on the ground with your beating on them.

You might consider reversing your ST and DEX. With Snake Fang, that might result in a higher DPR.

[blackbloodtroll]

Most cinematic Combat Maneuver?

With the right description, Dirty Trick.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I like Dirty Trick. Dirty Tricks also have no size limit. I like the idea of getting Quick, Great dirty trick and making my opponents Blind and/or Deaf. I'd do that with a character who did Sneak Attack Damage, taking levels in Rogue or Ninja for PFS, or taking that Alchemist dip with the Vivisectionist Archetype.

[blackbloodtroll]

Slayer can do Dirty Trick pretty well.

Bounty Hunter archetype, and/or Besmara Combat Style.

[RyanH]

Thanks, some great stuff here. It's non-PFS ...

- Looking at incorporating Improved, Quick, and Greater dirty trick in there (it does offer great cinematic options!) ... but you're right, need to get some precision damage in there. (Again though, important to not lose many of the CMB bonuses as it's hard to keep up with AC ...)

- I am still considering panther and snake, so like throwing in a level of monk with Master of many styles at 10 right after I finish the snake chain. Maybe earlier so that I can enjoy multiple styles for longer.

Changes so far ...

STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 15
Chr: 10

FLW = Fighter Lore Warden

1-FLW1- Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed, Panther
2-FLW2- Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm
3-FLW3- Improved Dirty Trick
4-FLW4- Panther Claw DEX 17
5-FLW5- Panther Parry
6-FLW6- Greater Dirty trick
7-FLW6MONK1- Snake style, Master of Many Styles, Snake Sidewind
8-FLW7M1 - DEX 18
9 Snake Fang
10 Rogue? Alchemist? Brawler? (Would be nice to be able to grab a feat at will ... then I basically have all the improved combat manuevers ...
11

If I took the monk at level 1 that would gains me a feat ... does not fit concept/backstory as well though ...

Still looking at all the ideas and options you all presented though.

[RyanH]

Ah! I can just retrain the 1st level Improved Unarmed once I have Monk. Then no wasted feat!

[ShroudedInLight]

Would you care to consider the Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp combo?

You need some crazy dex but basically you trip them, get off two AoOs, and then when they try to stand up you trip them again for more AoOs.

I guess it isn't that cinematic but you can combine it with Disarm or dirty trick feats as a Maneuver Master Monk and seriously cripple people.

[RyanH]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Would you care to consider the Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, and Vicious Stomp combo?

You need some crazy dex but basically you trip them, get off two AoOs, and then when they try to stand up you trip them again for more AoOs.

I guess it isn't that cinematic but you can combine it with Disarm or dirty trick feats as a Maneuver Master Monk and seriously cripple people.

After level 10 he really opens up to being able to take whatever ... that looks like a good series to have at his disposal.

[Scott Wilhelm]

RyanH wrote:

Ah! I can just retrain the 1st level Improved Unarmed once I have Monk. Then no wasted feat!

I recommend against taking Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1. I recommend taking 1 level in Fighter then the 2 levels in MoMS Monk. You'll get Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes by level 3, and you will have IUS with no need to retrain.

How about

1Fighter: Lore Warden, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Panther Style
2F1Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Snake Style
3F1M2: Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes

How to get Sneak Attack then when you are Blinding people with your Dirty Tricks? The 3 choices that spring to mind are Alchemist Vivisectionist, Rogue, and Ninja. There is a Teamwork Feat, too.

By Level 2 Ninja, you can learn the Ninja Vanishing Trick which lets you turn Invisible (as in the level 1 spell Vanish) as a Swift Action, and you will auto Sneak on your next attack.

Vivisectionist blends well in the way I described earlier in this thread, but as I said, if you use the Dex Mod to up your dex for more attacks of opportunity, you will lose Wisdom and lose Panther Claw Retaliatory Strikes. But maybe that just means that if you do Vivisectionist, Snake Style, and Panther Claw, you are just committing to Strength Mutagens: perhaps not a big deal.

With the Stats you are starting with, I recommend a point in Wisdom instead of Dex at level 4, so you will get another Retaliatory Strike from Panther Claw. Anyway, you only grow your ability score mods on even numbered levels, so raising a 15 to a 16 does more than raising a 16 to a 17. By that logic, you should raise your Intelligence at level 8.

What is your backstory?

[RyanH]

The lore warden gains Combat Expertise at level 2 ... so, if I followed that recommendation either he has to wait until level 3 or 4 before he is doing non-aoo maneuvers, or wait until 3 or 4 until he has unarmed strike.

I would like him fighting with his style of sword and maneuvers from the get go.

It's totally a "better-build" to go monk first ... he's start with four feats (Human, Level 1, Unarmed Strike, monk style) and thus have an extra feat for the first six levels than he does with my build, but I just thought it made sense for him to take Lore Warden and maintain Lore Warden until his training necessitated him going out to gain some other skills (in particular Master of Many styles so Panther and Snake can be active at the same time ... this is not an issue until level 7.)

Backstory is pretty much what a Lore Warden is ... guardian and keeper of Pathfinder knowledge ... a Vudrani worshiper of irori focused on gaining knowledge and honing his fighting skills. (monk fits well too.)

But, I don't like multi-classing unless he has a good explanation for how it happened ... A PC of at least 3rd level to train you in their craft, an NPC is available to train, or say you spend a level without weapons you pick up brawler, etc.

I figured he would either find a monk in the first six levels of play to train with, or maybe he would find manuscripts.

The Serpant's Skull trait he has is ... Mwangi Scholar: Very little is known of the Mwangi Expanse ... You have long studied the region and its lore, and count yourself among a small handful of genuine experts throughout the Inner Sea. The Jenivere promises to take you to the very subject of your fascination, and you eagerly await firsthand investigation of the deep jungles and cyclopean ruins of Garund's interior. Gain Polyglot and +1 Know Hist Mwangi.

Good plan on Wisdom for retaliatory strike.