That magus is not OP, and does not do the most damage. It however is good at burst damage.
I dont see the total build, and I dont know how the GM runs combat so I can't say exactly why it is dominating.
It does sound like the GM is using 1 monster fights. If that is the case he needs to use more multiple monster encounters, and that goes for any GM, even if there is no magus.
If the scimitar is a +2 and it is a flaming shocking weapon that means it is +4 for the purpose of pricing and it should not be in the hands of a 9th level character.
Does the magus have an ability to add electric and fire damage to his weapon?
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No, the magus isn't broken. He is wasting a turn to mirror image and another to get close to an enemy. Assuming your combats last an average of 5 rounds, the ranger could have half his DPR and still be on par at the end of the fight.
He is probably a lot better than the fighter though, which I assume is your main problem. This isn't because the magus is overpowered, it is because the fighter sucks. Level ~10 is the optimal power point for the magus, so you would expect him to be shining now. This level is far beyond the optimal power point for the fighter, so it is no suprise the magus looks good in comparison.
One round = 1 monster dead is totally standard, by the way.
*edit*
I really envy people who still find DPR builds outrageously strong. I wish for the days when my players were inexperienced enough to only break the game in combat! Now I have to cope with all kinds of spellcaster shenanigans...
Optimized Magus are strong. Scimitar Check. Shocking Grasp Check. Dervish Dance check. Proceed to faceroll the game.
Part of it has to do with your party makeup. A Bard is making that Magus look a lot better whereas that Two Weapon Fighter is simply less good damage wise than a 2Hander Fighter.
The Cleric and Archer don't really have the same roles as the Magus so I don't understand how the Magus is overshadowing them.
The magus may indeed enhance his weapon as well as adding properties to his weapn but he must manage his arcane pool in order to do so. At 9th level he'd have spent at least 1 point for enhanced damage then 1 for each added benefit such as keen and flaming burst. The arcane pool is calculated by magus lvl/2 + int mod.
Try to put multiple monsters in there or bait out his arcane pool and spell use with extended encounters or multiple monsters. Im not saying be unfair to the guy but maybe look at his weaknesses. Can he fight smart flying opponents?
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he he doing about 90+ damage a round, with huge to hit...way more than all the rest....
we mostly have bard song, and haste form the bard.
having 4 attacks (1 spell through the weapon, 1 weapon, 1 bab, 1 haste).
his scimitar is +2, he mostly add shocking,flame and keen to it.
he attack with intensified shocking grasp (9d6), scimitar (1d6), flame&lighting (2d6) = 12d6 with 25% for critical (10d6 more...). add some static bonus (about 7)....
and last 2 attacks are 3d6+7 (all with crit of 25%..)
So, at first I can feel bad, if it feels like Partymembers are soloing the encounters.
But ask yourself a few questions and answer us a few:- How exactly is he doing 90+ damage a round?
First, he has to use spells for that, so its not every round. Also, what gives him bonuses? I think at least the bard is pushing his damage.
Not sure what exactly he wears but:
1d6 (Scimitar) + 2d6 (elemental) + 6 (DEX/STR) + 2 (Enhancement Bonus) + 4 (Power Attack) + 2 (Inspire Courage) + 9d6 (Shocking Grasp).
Thats 54 damage on average. 2 more attacks are 45 (22,5 each) damage on average. Sums up for 99 damage on average.
Now the big BUT: Its not every round. He has to receive Inspire Courage and Haste. If he gives haste himself, he doesn't do that damage in this round. And he has to be able to full attack.
Then, it's level 9 - Monsters with Resistances, Immunities and DR exist.
If the bard is giving haste: he is doing about 26,5 of that damage.
Looking at 25% crit: I think it's mechanically impossible to have that crit range.
In my group (I'm the DM - all Lvl 8) is a magus, too. He does the same damage and its totally fine. My Archer Ranger is also near that, same as my Barbarian. My Oracle supports them, and they wouldn't exist without it. At some point, my magus has no spells left, no arcane pool left. Then the other 2 are doing much more.
Do not look at the game in damage numbers, it helps.
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the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
Let's be generous an assume your fight goes for 6 rounds total, and that your magus is doing just enough damage to always kill an enemy each round (if he does a lot more this favours the ranger, because he is 'wasting' damage and that 50% less for the ranger is probably still enough to drop an enemy every round).
If the Archer ranger only has half of this damage (ignoring the animal companion, which I assume is doing something also?) that probably means he is poorly optimised... but even so, let's look at the stats.
Over 6 rounds, including a mirror image and turn to charge, the magus drops 4 enemies and maybe a fifth if he gets lucky and they come to him.
Over 6 rounds, the archer drops 3 enemies (1 every 2 rounds) and maybe a fourth if he gets a crit.
The archer is literally only a single kill on average behind, due to the inherent advantage of ranged over melee. Factor in his animal companion (he does have an animal companion, right...) who, even if it kills one enemy that whole 6 rounds, puts him back on par. The magus is expending limited resources to do this and ends up falling well behind the ranger once those are used up. There isn't an issue here.
That magus is not OP, and does not do the most damage. It however is good at burst damage.
I dont see the total build, and I dont know how the GM runs combat so I can't say exactly why it is dominating.
It does sound like the GM is using 1 monster fights. If that is the case he needs to use more multiple monster encounters, and that goes for any GM, even if there is no magus.
If the scimitar is a +2 and it is a flaming shocking weapon that means it is +4 for the purpose of pricing and it should not be in the hands of a 9th level character.
Does the magus have an ability to add electric and fire damage to his weapon?
weapon is only +2, the magus add +3 at this lvl... so he add flame, shock and keen...
we have more than 1 fight a day, and more than 1 monster, but the magus is a 1 round = 1 monster dead. every round.
with nice protection spells and more.
Killing one monster a round is not OP, but it might be for your table.
As for the fighter and ranger I don't know how they were built so out damaging them is not a sign of being OP.
the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
The Archer doesn't need to melee. If the Magus is easily getting full attacks, that's an issue with the encounter. A big one hit monster like a Giant should be avoiding full attacks like the plague since the Magus' AoO are weak and flimsy. Are monsters moving up to the Magus to let him get full attacks? Are they chucking spears/boulders and letting him close before unleashing full attacks on him first?
Also here's a funny tip about applying Flaming/Shocking or whatever to your weapon.
You have to use a standard action to activate them still.
the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
A 9th level archer should be doing more than 45 points of damage per round if favored enemies are in play. If they are not in play he should still do enough to kill or nearly kill any APL=CR opponent in 2 rounds on average.
edit:It still seems like it is taking the magus at least 2 rounds to get into the action.
1. cast mirror image
2. move up to enemy
3 full attack
That leaves time for spells to be cast and the group to kill other enemies. Are the ranger and fighter not able to kill an enemy in 3 rounds alone?
A 9th level archer should be doing more than 45 points of damage per round if favored enemies are in play. If they are not in play he should still do enough to kill or nearly kill any APL=CR opponent in 2 rounds on average.the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
Next level the archer ranger gets instant enemy online and doesn't even need to worry about favored enemies.
Next level the archer ranger gets instant enemy online and doesn't even need to worry about favored enemies.A 9th level archer should be doing more than 45 points of damage per round if favored enemies are in play. If they are not in play he should still do enough to kill or nearly kill any APL=CR opponent in 2 rounds on average.the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
Yeah, but he can only cast about 2 per day
Looking at 25% crit: I think it's mechanically impossible to have that crit range.
15-20 crit range, but without Keen he can't have it, and improved critical is has a +8 BAB requirement which a level 9 magus does not meet, so this also needs to be looked at.
PS: Actually if one wants to be exact about it 16-20 is 25%, so you are right no weapon has a 16-20 crit range. :)
the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
The Archer doesn't need to melee. If the Magus is easily getting full attacks, that's an issue with the encounter. A big one hit monster like a Giant should be avoiding full attacks like the plague since the Magus' AoO are weak and flimsy. Are monsters moving up to the Magus to let him get full attacks? Are they chucking spears/boulders and letting him close before unleashing full attacks on him first?
Also here's a funny tip about applying Flaming/Shocking or whatever to your weapon.
You have to use a standard action to activate them still.
Actually it is only a swift action. Saying another standard action is needed to activate them is like making an inquisitor do that with his bane abilities or forcing a paladin to spend another action when adding a special ability to his bonded weapon.
Actually it is only a swift action. Saying another standard action is needed to activate them is like making an inquisitor do that with his bane abilities or forcing a paladin to spend another action when adding a special ability to his bonded weapon.the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
The Archer doesn't need to melee. If the Magus is easily getting full attacks, that's an issue with the encounter. A big one hit monster like a Giant should be avoiding full attacks like the plague since the Magus' AoO are weak and flimsy. Are monsters moving up to the Magus to let him get full attacks? Are they chucking spears/boulders and letting him close before unleashing full attacks on him first?
Also here's a funny tip about applying Flaming/Shocking or whatever to your weapon.
You have to use a standard action to activate them still.
Flaming requires a command word to be activated which is a standard action.
Bane does not have a command word.
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Doesn't sound like the Magus is Overpowered, it sounds like the other martial characters are underpowered in comparison. The 9th level version of Magda, a cleric, routinely inflicted over 100 HP of melee damage per round. If the fighter and ranger are doing less damage than a cleric then they probably are not optimized for inflicting combat damage. Two Weapon Fighting is a pretty big handicap compared to using a Two Handed Weapon, and explains part of that disparity.
I've GMd for archers who routinely put the above damage numbers to shame. This problem could be a lot worse: a 9th level level Wizard could be dropping DC20+ Selective Dazing Fireballs.
edit:It still seems like it is taking the magus at least 2 rounds to get into the action.
1. cast mirror image
2. move up to enemy
3 full attackThat leaves time for spells to be cast and the group to kill other enemies. Are the ranger and fighter not able to kill an enemy in 3 rounds alone?
Why are you assuming he can't cast Mirror Image and move up to the enemy in the same round? Especially if he's hasted.
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the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
Sounds like the archer needs help optimizing his pc.
Magus have high DPR and good defense with spells like Mirror Image. With a pocket full of Pearls of Power, they can Intensified Shocking Grasp all day long. Zen archers are also pretty good at DPR and have good saves and CMD. Paladins smiting evil are very potent too. All 3 of these have good will saves.
A rogue or fighter is just going to suck in comparison, especially when a monster casts dominate, confusion, or some other save or suck spell requiring a Will save.
Let the players who now realize their characters are grossly inferior have the option of rebuilding their characters, or possibly playing new characters with equal wealth and experience.
Or just drop loot to the fighter. You can balance the power levels without making the players rebuild.
This sounds like an encounter issue to me, even if the other party members are not optimized.
Remember, the evil hordes you're fighting eventually spread word to their masters about the group of heroes messing up all their plans. "Be careful, the magic-fighter guy is insane - do whatever you can to stop him from attacking in melee and his friends from healing him!"
Encounters do not occur in a vacuum. Enemies communicate and prepare just like PCs do. Exploding everything in sight with one swing tends to have consequences.
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Looking at 25% crit: I think it's mechanically impossible to have that crit range.
15-20 crit range, but without Keen he can't have it, and improved critical is has a +8 BAB requirement which a level 9 magus does not meet, so this also needs to be looked at.
PS: Actually if one wants to be exact about it 16-20 is 25%, so you are right no weapon has a 16-20 crit range. :)
You use your magic pool to get it. Or you cast keen weapon on your scimitar. With a 10 minutes/level duration it is one of the few long lasting magus spells.
First round:
Magus:
Cast mirror image, move 30' toward enemy (or wait for it if it is a melee bruiser), draw the scimitar during the movement, swift action to make it a +4 keen weapon.
Bard: cast haste and start inspire courage as a move action
+1 to hit from haste, +2 from inspire courage, +2 damage from inspire courage, +1 attack from haste.
Fighter:
Move and draw kukri, making 1 attack if the enemy is something that will not come to him, if the enemy is something that will come in range he use the delay action and engage when the enemy is near.
In every instance he delay until the bard has acted to benefit from the haste spell and the bard song.
Damage 1d4+1(magic)+2(specialization)+2 (from strength, he has burned point to get the dexterity for TWF)+6 (power attack)+2 bard =13.5
Cleric:
Do whatever he want to do. Note that if he summon something it will not benefit from haste.
Ranger: delay until the bard has casted haste, end started inspire courage.
Make 4 attacks, one with 2 arrows for 5 potentials damage rolls.
5*[1d8+1(magic)+2(strength)+6(deadly aim)+2(bard)]=77.5 hp of damage
Round 2
magus
Spell combat:
cast intensified shocking grasp while in reach of the enemy. Make a concentration check (ok, the chances for him to fail are practically inexistent if he has Magical Lineage with shocking grasp)
Make 4 attacks and drop an enemy. At most he cam move 5'.
Assuming all attack hits: 4*1d6+4(magic)+5(dexterity from Dervish dance)+2 (bard song)4d6+44= 58 hp
9d6 shocking grasp = 31.5 hp
30% chance of a critical with every attack, so we can add the benefit of 1 critical = 1d6+11= 14.5
Total 104 hp of damage.
22.5 come from the bard (haste+bard song), probably even more as the bard gave him +3 to his to hit.
Fighter:
Full attack, with +1 kukri, dex build, I hope improved critical.
he make 5 attacks, with a 30% chance of getting a critical.
Damage 1d4+1(magic)+2(specialization)+2/1 (from strength, he has burned point to get the dexterity for TWF)+6/3 (power attack)+2 bard
3*(1d4+13)+2*(1d4+9)=69.5
Archer:
Again 4 attacks, 1 with two arrows.
5*[1d8+1(magic)+2(strength)+6(deadly aim)+2(bard)]=77.5 hp of damage
He has dropped his first enemy and started the second. Or dropped his enemy and the one that was engaging the fighter.
3 round
The magus has another enemy within a 5' step: spell combat and repeat the above attack.
Same for the fighter and the archer (but the archer don't need to move at all).
After 3 rounds:
The magus has dealt 208 hp of damage, used 2 fist level spells.
The Fighter has dealt 152.5 hp of damage
The Ranger has dealt 232.5 hp of damage
The magus had the enemies play to his strengths, the other guys haven't. And the ranger is ahead.
- * -
He seriously is routinely adding shocking and flaming to the weapon instead of a straight +2 to hit and damage?
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our group has a bard, cleric caster-summoner, 2 kukri fighter, archer ranger and the magus. we are lvl 9.
the magus is WAY WAY better than all when combat starts.
he got amazing armor\defences (mithral breast plate, ring +2, dex based). round 1 mostly goes to mirror image.
he he doing about 90+ damage a round, with huge to hit...way more than all the rest.it feel's useless to do anything other than heal and keep him alive.
are all magus like that?we mostly have bard song, and haste form the bard.
having 4 attacks (1 spell through the weapon, 1 weapon, 1 bab, 1 haste).
his scimitar is +2, he mostly add shocking,flame and keen to it.
he attack with intensified shocking grasp (9d6), scimitar (1d6), flame&lighting (2d6) = 12d6 with 25% for critical (10d6 more...). add some static bonus (about 7).than he attack again, using a swift action to add extra 4d6, so his attack is 7d6+7.
and last 2 attacks are 3d6+7 (all with crit of 25%..)
thats... like a charging cavalier but without a charge...
What Swift Action is he using to add an extra 4D6 damage? I can think of a few ways for a Magus to use a Swift Action to add damage but one of them is already in play, the other doesn't use dice, and the third is terrible and the Magus doesn't have access to yet. Check that one out.
I think he is using this with spellstrike, but forget the "standard action" part:
Pool Strike (Su): The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a standard action to charge his free hand with energy. He can make a melee touch attack with that hand as a free action as part of activating this ability. If the touch attack hits, it releases the charge and deals 2d6 points of energy damage (acid, cold, electricity, or fire, chosen when he spends the arcane pool point to activate this ability). He can use this ability with the spellstrike class feature. If he misses with this attack, he can hold the charge for up to 1 minute before it dissipates. At 6th level, and every three levels thereafter, the amount of damage dealt by this attack increases by 1d6.
The magus isn't overpowered. He's just really easy to optimize. And because he has a high nova ceiling and can fill the role as the party wizard, he can feel overpowered, especially compared to unoptimized party members. Magi tend to do best around levels 5-10 and lose their steam around 10-11, where the ranged fighters and 9-level spellcasters really outshine him.
Actually it is only a swift action. Saying another standard action is needed to activate them is like making an inquisitor do that with his bane abilities or forcing a paladin to spend another action when adding a special ability to his bonded weapon.the archer - is doing 50% of the magus damage.
the cleric - why waste a debuff or summon when the foe will be dead in a round ?
The Archer doesn't need to melee. If the Magus is easily getting full attacks, that's an issue with the encounter. A big one hit monster like a Giant should be avoiding full attacks like the plague since the Magus' AoO are weak and flimsy. Are monsters moving up to the Magus to let him get full attacks? Are they chucking spears/boulders and letting him close before unleashing full attacks on him first?
Also here's a funny tip about applying Flaming/Shocking or whatever to your weapon.
You have to use a standard action to activate them still.
Flaming requires a command word to be activated which is a standard action.
Bane does not have a command word.
You still did not address the paladin.
Why are you assuming he can't cast Mirror Image and move up to the enemy in the same round? Especially if he's hasted.edit:It still seems like it is taking the magus at least 2 rounds to get into the action.
1. cast mirror image
2. move up to enemy
3 full attackThat leaves time for spells to be cast and the group to kill other enemies. Are the ranger and fighter not able to kill an enemy in 3 rounds alone?
Either way I am still assuming something.
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I would not recommend trying to enforce the standard to activate flaming/shocking. You could bring it up, but I'd avoid pushing it. It's iffy and there are good reasons it is a debated subject.
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I would not recommend trying to enforce the standard to activate flaming/shocking. You could bring it up, but I'd avoid pushing it. It's iffy and there are good reasons it is a debated subject.
True, I think that almost no one enforce it. True, it is a problem only for the guys that can give special abilities to their weapons on the spot (paladin, magus, 1 archetype of the bard, maybe some other guy) as the owner of a flaming weapon can put it in his scabbard already aflame (the flames don't harm him).
If you go that way there are plenty of other problems.
The flaming weapon shed light? Oops, it do so even when in the scabbard, if you became invisible there is a walking flame going around.
You can burn things with it without attacking? RAW, no.
That kind of detail can become annoying very fast.
BTW, the numbers I gave for the ranger are without an animal companion and the preferred enemy bonus. So, unless those too are chosen badly, his numbers should be higher.
A 10th level elven ranger has 3 combat style feats and 5 generic feats.
More than enough for Toughness, Deadly Aim, precise shot, point blank shot and manyshot. He would even have two feat left after picking those. So clustered shot and some other stuff.
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I thought he was making it shocking/flaming/keen, not +2 and keen?
If it's not, your line looks like:
+13/+13/+13/+8
(20% crit range)
vs
+12/+12/+12/+7
(30% crit range)
But either way, this is very comparable.
Looks like the main issue is that your ranger has an AC which he isn't using (and has spent boon companion on). He should be doing slightly less damage than he magus alone but more with the AC. He also picked up improved precise shot/clustered shot instead of manyshot because..... who knows.
The easiest way to solve this is to get him another AC. He can release it and call a new AC with 24 hours work. Tell him to get a big cat or a dinosaur or similar. Next level he can pick up manyshot, which should help out a lot.
What is he doing with his spells, also? Is he casting gravity bow?
Anyway, I think we have discovered why your magus seems 'OP': he is optimising whilst your other martial character/s aren't. For most of the mid-tier characters (which magus and ranger are both) A lot of the gap in pathfinder comes from optimisation rather than inherent class differences.
We haven't discussed your fighter friend but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Fighters verge on unsalvagably bad.
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Sorry to break the news, but Keen can't be applied to a bow.
Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
The archer should get 1 more full attack than the magus. The magus would need several rounds to overcome that.
That is, unless he routinely wait for the enemy to close in melee range and attack, then he use a delayed action to start spell combat and cast mirror image while making a full attack.
Or he routinely has a low position in the initiative order.
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He is a strength based magus? So his AC isn't anything stellar.
+6 from mithral breastplate, +2 for the ring, let's say +3 from dexterity, plus shield = 25 AC
At level 10.
My magus AC at that level, with shield, is 27 and I am hit often (I will upgrade ti as soon as we get in a city were we can buy something).
He remember that one of his mirror image is destroyed every time the enemy miss by 5 or less?
The fighter could definitely outshine the magus, but they just had to go two low damage high crit small weapons, lol. They need full rounds of the Nepalese ginzu special, and they have to get lucky and roll lots of crits while two-weapon fighting, to do better than the magus basic cut and grasp combo.
Dm needs to up the challenges and put the magus under pressure while he is trying to get all that damage. Force saves, shoot him, blast him, if he is a walking grapeshot, check if he is made of glass. There are monsters that can take what he is dishing out, and reply in kind.
I recommend ogre barbarians to test this magus. See who survives intense melee combat up close over a few rounds.
Doesn't sound like the Magus is Overpowered, it sounds like the other martial characters are underpowered in comparison. The 9th level version of Magda, a cleric, routinely inflicted over 100 HP of melee damage per round. If the fighter and ranger are doing less damage than a cleric then they probably are not optimized for inflicting combat damage. Two Weapon Fighting is a pretty big handicap compared to using a Two Handed Weapon, and explains part of that disparity.
I've GMd for archers who routinely put the above damage numbers to shame. This problem could be a lot worse: a 9th level level Wizard could be dropping DC20+ Selective Dazing Fireballs.
Yes and yes. The fighter could also out-damage the magus, by taking a bow.
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shield is cast by his familiar from a scroll = 29.
that is really high, highest in the group. and that is pre spells like deflection \ mirror image etc that can be used.
I dont Think share spell is a two Way ride. The familiar cannot cast range: personal spells on his Master.