Flaming requires a command word to be activated which is a standard action.
Bane does not have a command word.
True, but short of wanting to be discreet, there's no reason to turn the flaming property off once activated. It should almost never take a standard action during combat as a result (since you would activate it outside of combat, and just leave it on).
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True, but short of wanting to be discreet, there's no reason to turn the flaming property off once activated. It should almost never take a standard action during combat as a result (since you would activate it outside of combat, and just leave it on).Flaming requires a command word to be activated which is a standard action.
Bane does not have a command word.
Right, but they're talking about getting Flaming via the Magus's Arcane Pool...which means they're almost certainly only getting the power in combat.
I wouldn't make it require a Standard, but that seems a valid ruling.
I was thinking it was the standard weapon property, not a class ability.
For what it's worth, in my experience the de-buffer Magus is better than the shocking grasp version. They can really mess with anything but overpowered? No.
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@666bender
While I am not gonna say that magus is to blame for anything, I do believe it's easier to force him to "tone down" his play since 3 other players and GM are fairly inexperienced players.
Adam
Or, they could just ask him to help out with some of the other player's builds/tactics until things are more even?
Or let him get focused a little more in combat?
Tall poppy syndrome is pretty mean, really.
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When I saw players complaining about a Magus it wasn't due to DPR but the number of actions she was able to accomplish in a round along with some combat maneuver antics with True Strike.
Anyhow, I think damage can be overpowering, but this particular damage doesn't sound like more than a very typical Fighter or Barbarian with Haste could hand out around that level. In fact, when I look at 22 Str, Power Attack, and a +2 weapon either one of those classes comes out around 90 damage if we make the flawed assumption that all of the attacks will hit. It sounds like the Magus is making attacks on regular AC without the benefit of True Strike, so there should have a reasonable chance to miss at least against higher AC foes.
AC 29 is pretty good for 9th level though as somebody pointed out the familiar can't cast Shield on the Magus, so it should mostly be AC 25 unless the Magus knows combat is coming and has a chance to pre-buff. Mirror Image is a really strong defensive spell though. I'd expect that it alone might create a perception that the Magus is "invincible", especially since under pressure the Magus could always sacrifice some DPR to get Mirror Image back up with Spell Combat while still making some attacks.
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When I saw players complaining about a Magus it wasn't due to DPR but the number of actions she was able to accomplish in a round along with some combat maneuver antics with True Strike.
Shortly after the final magus class was released, I made one that made great use of his strengths within the action economy. In one of his first games my magus got "caught off-guard" when enemies attacked his camp at night. Within the opening round/surprise round he had donned an armored coat and quick draw shield, drew out his primary melee weapon with the Quick Draw feat, moved up to his speed with the bladed dash spell and slew one of the would-be ambushers with two quick slashes of his sword and a sizable bonus from Arcane Accuracy.
The other players just stared on in slack-jawed surprise.
In the following round, he took out two more minions by moving up and attacking one, then using bladed dash to get to the other. The whole scene was pretty cinematic.
Let me guess: he never use deadly aim "because it would make me miss".
Well, every time the magus use spell combat he is eating a -2 to hit and at 10th level he is already 3 points behind the ranger. Exactly what he will recover spending all his enhancement points increasing his weapon enhancement.
not true.
the ranger has +1 keen bow.
the magus has +2 scimitar that he makes +4 keen.
ranger :
base BAB 9 + 1 (bow) +2(bard) +4 (dex) -3 (deadly aim) -2 (rapid shot) +1 (haste)+1 (30' range) = 13/13/13/8. favorite enemy can alter it.magus :
BAB (6) + 4 (weapon) + 3(STR) + 2 (bard) +1 (haste) -2 (spell combat)
= 14/14/14/9
all with 30% crit range.
He can't make it +4 keen. The enhancement bonus of the weapon and the enchancement bonus he is adding don't stack. +2 Flaming/shocking/keen is fine.
He can't make it +4 keen. The enhancement bonus of the weapon and the enchancement bonus he is adding don't stack. +2 Flaming/shocking/keen is fine.Let me guess: he never use deadly aim "because it would make me miss".
Well, every time the magus use spell combat he is eating a -2 to hit and at 10th level he is already 3 points behind the ranger. Exactly what he will recover spending all his enhancement points increasing his weapon enhancement.
not true.
the ranger has +1 keen bow.
the magus has +2 scimitar that he makes +4 keen.
ranger :
base BAB 9 + 1 (bow) +2(bard) +4 (dex) -3 (deadly aim) -2 (rapid shot) +1 (haste)+1 (30' range) = 13/13/13/8. favorite enemy can alter it.magus :
BAB (6) + 4 (weapon) + 3(STR) + 2 (bard) +1 (haste) -2 (spell combat)
= 14/14/14/9
all with 30% crit range.
Yes they stack. At least in my book, they do.
Yeah, insofar as I know, they are supposed to stack.
Yeah, ok. Just went in and reread that ability and it specifically says that it does stack. Color me flabbergasted.
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The debuffing build also relies on a highly dubious rules interaction, while Shocking Grasp is free and clear of those issues.
But neither 'build' should be locked into a single trick. Especially the SG setup since the investment required is absolutely tiny.
I'm curious what sort if highly dubious rules interaction you're thinking of.
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keen - was a special weapon given by DM, not bought.
magus is int\dex based. he has str of 16 with a belt, dex of 16-18, ont of 18, con of 12 and toughness.
AC is : breast plate, mithral +2 (8) + 4 (dex) +2 (ring) +1(natural) = 25 pre spells.
shield is cast by his familiar from a scroll = 29.
that is really high, highest in the group. and that is pre spells like deflection \ mirror image etc that can be used.
How does his cast his familiar casts with a scroll ? his UMD shouldnt be that high unless he invested heavily in charisma
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How does his cast his familiar casts with a scroll ? his UMD shouldnt be that high unless he invested heavily in charismakeen - was a special weapon given by DM, not bought.
magus is int\dex based. he has str of 16 with a belt, dex of 16-18, ont of 18, con of 12 and toughness.
AC is : breast plate, mithral +2 (8) + 4 (dex) +2 (ring) +1(natural) = 25 pre spells.
shield is cast by his familiar from a scroll = 29.
that is really high, highest in the group. and that is pre spells like deflection \ mirror image etc that can be used.
As long as the master put ranks into UMD, it uses the familiar's charisma score. The bigger issue is that the Share spells ability doesn't allow a familiar to cast a personal spell on the master, only the other way around, but that has already been addressed up thread.
This is a little off topic, but can you even share spells with your familiar using a scroll? I recall that wands don't work with share spells. Maybe scrolls are OK since they're spell completion rather than spell trigger. In conjunction with UMD that could open up a lot of options.
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I'm curious what sort if highly dubious rules interaction you're thinking of.The debuffing build also relies on a highly dubious rules interaction, while Shocking Grasp is free and clear of those issues.
But neither 'build' should be locked into a single trick. Especially the SG setup since the investment required is absolutely tiny.
Enforcer specifies dealing nonlethal damage with a weapon; Frostbite is a spell that deals nonlethal damage and you happen to deliver the spell with a weapon (a weapon that, on most builds I see, is doing lethal damage itself).
*Shrug* You can skip Enforcer and the whole intimidate action, then you're fine, but I rarely see that.
Or.... you take Enforcer and intimidate, and use it properly, doing nonlethal damage with your weapon. Perhaps I just haven't been paying attention, but I haven't seen people suggesting that Frostbite is actually good enough to trigger Enforcer.
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And I really can't see Enforcer + non-lethal weapon attack working well unless you specifically get Merciful on your weapon, which I have seen suggested on absolutely zero builds-- otherwise you're just eating a -6 to hit and wasting time.
Or you could just take the Blade of Mercy trait. I currently have a samurai with that combo. It's not super powerful - but it's handy.
our group has a bard, cleric caster-summoner, 2 kukri fighter, archer ranger and the magus. we are lvl 9.
the magus is WAY WAY better than all when combat starts.
he got amazing armor\defences (mithral breast plate, ring +2, dex based). round 1 mostly goes to mirror image.
he he doing about 90+ damage a round, with huge to hit...way more than all the rest.it feel's useless to do anything other than heal and keep him alive.
are all magus like that?we mostly have bard song, and haste form the bard.
having 4 attacks (1 spell through the weapon, 1 weapon, 1 bab, 1 haste).
his scimitar is +2, he mostly add shocking,flame and keen to it.
he attack with intensified shocking grasp (9d6), scimitar (1d6), flame&lighting (2d6) = 12d6 with 25% for critical (10d6 more...). add some static bonus (about 7).than he attack again, using a swift action to add extra 4d6, so his attack is 7d6+7.
and last 2 attacks are 3d6+7 (all with crit of 25%..)
thats... like a charging cavalier but without a charge...
All I can say is what is the Ranger doing wrong. I've seen rangers do 15D6 +80 if all there attacks land when hasted and inspired. They can do this a lot more per day than the magus can do.
If I recall isn't there an FAQ that says the Magus does not get an extra attack from Haste if he is using spellcombat? That will help bring him down to earth, at least a little.
If I recall isn't there an FAQ that says the Magus does not get an extra attack from Haste if he is using spellcombat? That will help bring him down to earth, at least a little.
That was changed again.
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@666bender
While I am not gonna say that magus is to blame for anything, I do believe it's easier to force him to "tone down" his play since 3 other players and GM are fairly inexperienced players.
Adam
Or, they could just ask him to help out with some of the other player's builds/tactics until things are more even?
Or let him get focused a little more in combat?
Tall poppy syndrome is pretty mean, really.
That's all good advice, but overall people count more then well built characters.
You can teach people as you play. Hogging the spotlight all the time teaches them nothing but envy.
I'm not sure if the Frostbite damage on a spellstrike would count as being inflicted "with" a weapon. The Enforcer feat doesn't say that all of the damage you deal with the weapon needs to be nonlethal though.
Either way, if you're really into the idea of Enforcer + Cruel it seems like unarmed strikes or the Bludgeoner feat might be helpful. Of course you'd probably lose some crit range that way, but prolonging the fight isn't so bad for a debuffer. I think there's an archetype which could let you put Evil Eye on the enemy too.
On the other hand, I guess this is a thread about Magus being allegedly too good and ways to tone it down rather than ways to make it stronger.
Curse you System Mastery! A -6 penalty to your Int! Seriously though this game is too durned old for posts like this. Not that I can't sympathize.
And I really can't see Enforcer + non-lethal weapon attack working well unless you specifically get Merciful on your weapon, which I have seen suggested on absolutely zero builds
Here you go. Something very similar can be accomplished with a Sanctified Slayer taking the Redemption Inquisition - it would need more feats (Double Bane, for example), but wouldn't have to spend gold on the Merciful ability for his maces.
And I really can't see Enforcer + non-lethal weapon attack working well unless you specifically get Merciful on your weapon, which I have seen suggested on absolutely zero buildsHere you go. Something very similar can be accomplished with a Sanctified Slayer taking the Redemption Inquisition - it would need more feats (Double Bane, for example), but wouldn't have to spend gold on the Merciful ability for his maces.
Besides merciful there are a lot of other options. One of the most interesting is orc weapon expertise (thug) that lets you deal 1 point of nonlethal in addition to your normal damage. Will not demoralize for long. But it works.
Thinking about the fighter...
I'll assume no archetype. The player should probably be pointed at gloves of dueling (which are practically a best-in-slot item for fighters) if he hasn't been yet.
Assuming he's now got like an 18 dex and a 14 str, his feats could run something like that... Not going to assume human. His actual physical may well be much better, too.
1) Two-weapon fighting, weapon finesse
2) weapon focus (kukri)
3) power attack
4) weapon spec (kukri)
5) double slice (to make damage calculation simpler)
6) improved two-weapon fighting
7) whatever
8) imp. weapon focus (kukri)
9) improved crit (kukri).
With a pair of +1 kukris, gloves of dueling, weapon training 2, and feats, his attacks at 9th level should be something like... (one-hand) 20/15 (1d4+9/15-20), (dual wield) 18/18/13/13 (1d4+9/15-20), dual wield power attack +15/10 (1d4+15/15-20), +15/+10 (1d4+12/15-20).
The bard singing and hasting would make that final attack set +18/+18/+13 (1d4+17/15-20), +18/+13 (1d4+14/15-20).
So around 89 damage on rounds where he doesn't get any crits.
The fighter should be doing way better than only 1/2 of 99 damage, even with what's generally considered a suboptimal build.
As has been noted already by others, I suspect the issue has far more to do with your magus being the only martial who knows what he's doing rather than the magus being OP.
Random thing - mirror image lasts a minute per level. I'm baffled your magus is waiting until the fight starts to cast it.
another thing, magus has the whole spell list, like a cleric.
they have a power that allow them to gain ANY spell on the list even if they lack it in their spell books. than he use scribe to make a scroll than he copy to spell book...
RAW he doesn't even need to scribe a scroll. As he knows the spell he can write it in his book. But I haven't seen any GM allow it yet. Even with scribe scroll.
@Gloves of dueling: If the fighter is to weak, why not just have the gloves drop?
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666bender, you are starting to sound like a broken record. Not only is there a clear group consensus that the magus isn't the issue here, you have also been shown alternative builds and number crunching to back that consensus up with hard fact.
If you didn't want some resolution and discussion, why did you even make this topic? So everyone could go 'yeah totally' and make you feel better about yourself? This is the advice forum. You asked for and were given advice. If you are not going to accept that advice, you aren't achieving anything useful by continuing to post here.
another thing, magus has the whole spell list, like a cleric.
they have a power that allow them to gain ANY spell on the list even if they lack it in their spell books. than he use scribe to make a scroll than he copy to spell book...
RAW he doesn't even need to scribe a scroll. As he knows the spell he can write it in his book. But I haven't seen any GM allow it yet. Even with scribe scroll.
@Gloves of dueling: If the fighter is to weak, why not just have the gloves drop?
you cant really stop him. as nothing in the roles \ FAQ forbit it.
that is why i am saying a magus is TOO strong.
The GM can stop him. Unless it's PFS.
"In my game you can't use that ability to learn all spells." is all it takes to stop it. Can be said with more diplomacy, sure. But the fact remains.
We have found several things tha magus player Does wrong, familiar cast shield on him and swift action pool strike springs to mind. But it dose seem that the other guys in the gang Can also up there game a bit. I suggest you make a new thread where you post your PC built and ask how to improve performance.
the fighter isnt weak, the magus is OP : )
if all character devote the same % of feats to non pure combat feats.
and only the magus stay out there. something is wrong.
Number of feats is not a valid source of measurement because not all feats are equal, nor do all feats have the same value to every class, and the combination the feats are taken with also affect their usefulness. In addition you still have to consider the overall build, and the skill of the player.
another thing, magus has the whole spell list, like a cleric.
they have a power that allow them to gain ANY spell on the list even if they lack it in their spell books. than he use scribe to make a scroll than he copy to spell book...
RAW he doesn't even need to scribe a scroll. As he knows the spell he can write it in his book. But I haven't seen any GM allow it yet. Even with scribe scroll.
@Gloves of dueling: If the fighter is to weak, why not just have the gloves drop?
you cant really stop him. as nothing in the roles \ FAQ forbit it.
that is why i am saying a magus is TOO strong.
Explain in detail.
edit: The fighter is not the poster boy for balance.
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You must not have seen a well built, or even non-crappy built Wizard in action.
I disagree with where you are going here. Wizard has a moderately high skill floor but a sky high skill ceiling. There's a world of difference between "pew pew I prepped nothing but fireball!" and establishing complete and utter dominance through carefully tailoring your spells prepared to the situation at hand. I'm still working on becoming an example of the latter wizard in that example.
Tell the fighter to get a greatsword, retrain his class abilities to focus weapon/specialize in it, and ask the bard to enlarge him.
Then check again who is a a real killing machine with bard song + haste active.
The magus has a weakness that his damage relies on elemental effects by the way.
At lv9, that wizard should be able to cast some nasty things like charm/hold monster, suffocation and waves of fatigue, that also take out enemies in a single round.
AC is : breast plate, mithral +2 (8) + 4 (dex) +2 (ring) +1(natural) = 25 pre spells.
How does this make the magus any stronger than the fighter if he also had all this equipped? Shield spell is the only difference here, but if those are rings of protection (deflection bonus) the fighter has the potential of a higher AC when wearing a magic shield and fighting with combat expertise.
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ok, a few things i gathered.
1) the ranger is indeed sub-optimal. he took boon companion but his pet is only a defensive non attacking wall. and as a elf he has fewer feats.
Falcon bracers would up his damage output nicely, and if he's devoting feats to archery he should be riddling his targets with arrows. That his companion is just a wall isn't an issue - it just frees up anyone from having to worry about him.
2) the magus had some mistakes (not using action to add flame&shock, not using action for pool strike etc.)
Yes, this is quite a common cause for classes seeming overpowered - the player has excitedly read through the rules and missed the downsides of some of his abilities.
3) most fights indeed come to us...
Then you need to structure your encounters - enemies should use numbers and tactics. They should have missile weapons and be happy to hang back and use them to draw the party out. Unless they are rushing in because the ranger is shooting them up at range, in which case he is most definitely not sub-optimal...he's doing his job.
As for why your fighter seems underpowered, it's because he's taken the weakest fighting style around. Even so, at level 9 he should have Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical and Weapon Training all racking up on those kukris. A full attack should easily kick out 50-60DPR, more if he uses Power Attack - in a well-built fighter. The fighter shouldn't be weak in DPR terms, but he is easy to get wrong.
My suggestion: give them a multi-foe encounter. It doesn't matter if the magus one-hits them, because there are more to take their place. Have the enemy in a good, defensive position, with ranged weapons, reach weapons, and standard melee weapons. Say, a gang of ogres with a defensive wall with two apertures, throwing rocks from behind the wall. This should take tactics and several rounds to get through, and it should take the whole party doing what they do:
Magus and fighter take an aperture each to fight the enemy.
Cleric summons allies to harass the ogres behind the wall.
Ranger to target the ogres throwing rocks.
Bard buffs everyone.