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Mystic Theurge can get quite complicated. The better your system mastery the more effective will be your Mystic Theurge. Just tracking prepared spells is a thing. Say you go with a Wizard/Cleric. An arcane bonded object gives immediate access to every spell in your arcane spell book. For your divine spells, an open spell slot provides 15 minute access to all legal divine spells. So even a low level mystic theurge can have rapid access to dozens or hundreds of spells[OOTS - Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge]. That's a lot to keep track of.
Skald would be nice if one of them wanted to play it. Why is there an issue with 2 Archery focused Hunters?
Folks remember these are new to the game, kids, and PFS.
Many of these suggestions are not taking that into account. Many experienced adult long time PF players have trouble doing a good job with the complicated alchemist builds and few people do well with a mystic theurge.
Also the GM can't add or change things to the scenario in PFS.
Krell44, My advice:
They've already picked what they want to play for now. Hammer is often more fun for a new player. Let them run with it. In general, PFS is pretty forgiving of lopsided party makeup.
If you, as GM, are little more careful of which scenarios you pick. A couple are almost all social skills and a few are extremely difficult even for experienced players in balanced parties.
What you can do and what is very appropriate especially for new players is making some tactical and shopping suggestions.
"You've heard rumors of other pathfinders finding an oil of daylight very useful." 2-3 scenarios prior to running one with deeper darkness.
"The fiends from the World Wound are difficult to injure without cold-iron weapons." 2-3 scenarios prior to running one with demons.
"Since you are getting knocked out so often, you might want to invest in a few more potions of cure moderate wounds that someone can pour down your throat."
"If you step forward like that, they will easily be able to flank you. That will at least give them a +2 to hit and if they have sneak attack the damage will also go up."
"Since you need to take this guy alive, you might want to try a grapple rather than a great axe."
The other thing I might suggest is alternate them with some experienced players who can give them some other suggestions and examples. Say 1 week have 3 of them do a scenario with 3 experienced players. Then the next week have the other 3 do a scenario with 3 experienced players. then you can go back to the group of 6 and see what they thought of it.
Folks remember these are new to the game, kids, and PFS.
Many of these suggestions are not taking that into account. Many experienced adult long time PF players have trouble doing a good job with the complicated alchemist builds and few people do well with a mystic theurge.
Also the GM can't add or change things to the scenario in PFS.
Krell44, My advice:
They've already picked what they want to play for now. Hammer is often more fun for a new player. Let them run with it. In general, PFS is pretty forgiving of lopsided party makeup.If you, as GM, are little more careful of which scenarios you pick. A couple are almost all social skills and a few are extremely difficult even for experienced players in balanced parties.
What you can do and what is very appropriate especially for new players is making some tactical and shopping suggestions.
"You've heard rumors of other pathfinders finding an oil of daylight very useful." 2-3 scenarios prior to running one with deeper darkness.
"The fiends from the World Wound are difficult to injure without cold-iron weapons." 2-3 scenarios prior to running one with demons.
"Since you are getting knocked out so often, you might want to invest in a few more potions of cure moderate wounds that someone can pour down your throat."
"If you step forward like that, they will easily be able to flank you. That will at least give them a +2 to hit and if they have sneak attack the damage will also go up."
"Since you need to take this guy alive, you might want to try a grapple rather than a great axe."The other thing I might suggest is alternate them with some experienced players who can give them some other suggestions and examples. Say 1 week have 3 of them do a scenario with 3 experienced players. Then the next week have the other 3 do a scenario with 3 experienced players. then you can go back to the group of 6 and see what they thought of it.
Yeah I guess most of the things I would advise are not gonna necessarily help these guys. As the people I play with like combat to be brutal, fast paced, and barely survivable. When the PCs barley make out alive you hear a lot of "nice fights". That's not to say we do all fights like that.
What I usually try for is I'll do an easy fight (mainly to see the strengths and weaknesses of the group)Then a harder fight,
Then one that's easier (so the PCs feel heroic).
Then I'll hit them with a brutal fight that plays to their strengths.
Then I let up a lil on the next fight.
Then a "boss" fight that is brutal and goes for their weaknesses.
I'll mix it up a lil from time to time just so the pattern is a little less obvious.
I realize this wouldn't work with some groups but the folk I play with seem to enjoy it.
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Well going over how this has progressed here are my thoughts:
1: Im gonna have to side with Alter ego. Most new players can not grasp certian classes. Never have I seen a new player sit down and play a good full caster. They all want to be starry eyed at damage. Most new players are that way. I've seen new players forget entirely about class abilities. Watching a paladin forget he has Lay on hands, watching a bard not start a performance, watching rogues who run in first....there is going to be lots of mistakes.
2: You have a paladin, druid, 2 hunters....all can cast cure spells or heal. If every play spends 2 PP for a wand of CLW. (Wizard take infernal healing) then healing should be enough in PFS play for this group. If it isn't then they will learn from thier mistakes.
3: Dropping hints and being easy for the first few levels is suggested. Warn them when they make terrible decisions. Every level peel back on hints, advice, and r ethinks. Tell them by levr l 5-7 you will be removing the training wheels. They should by then grasp thier classes and wised up to some proper play mechanics.
I would be more afraid of puttin someone into role he does not want than lack of healing. I suggest wands CLW (wich half of the party can use).
Infernal Healing is more cost effective, and if the Paladin doesn't like the "evil" healing that's what Lay on Hands is for.
Good advice folks, I am going to let them run as they are, and continue to suggest certain things that will make life easier on them. Cheers!
Glad to help.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you think looking at both of the two biggest spell lists in the game and being told to pick several options from each, and possibly new ones each day, doesn't have "any bad" for a new player, then you've clearly forgotten what it's like to be a new player.
Folks remember these are new to the game, kids, and PFS.It is with that in mind that I suggested Mystic Theurge. The easiest class to run in Pathfinder is Cleric. The 2nd easiest is Wizard.
@ Devilkiller: it IS fair to say that I made my Mystic Theurge a long time ago. She is a Tiefling, at the moment a Level 1 Cleric of Asmodeus with the Trickery (and Law) Domain/Level 1 Wizard. She will be a Level 1 Cleric/Level 2 Wizard/Level 1 Mystic Theurge.
But even a Level 3 Cleric/Level 3 Wizard/Level 1 Mystic Theurge will well-offset the lack of high level spells with a HUGE variety of lower level spells to choose from. This character would be a blank slate at the beginning of every adventure that can learn from every other player what each of his characters can do and try a whole new configuration of spells every day to explore how best to support his party in every situation. When the player makes inevitable mistakes and find out that some of his spells weren't as cool as he imagined, he can completely change his mind and redo his collection every in-game day. This is an ideal character concept for a new player: lots of power, superlative adaptability, endless learning opportunity.
And perhaps the party's new healer.
I just don't see any bad here.
No the fighter is easier IMO with the no spells to pick, all you really have to watch out for are your feats.
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A fighter can be easy...a bad player can play badly and get by as a fighter.
Playing a good fighter and building right with feats and items takes compriention. Knowing combat rules for grapple and all the other CMs can take time. Knowing at what speed your manuvers happen at takes lots of rule knoweldge. A new player may not know a trip can be done in place of any attack and only against things 1 size larger than yourself.
I believe easiest classes to get a good grasp of the game is Ranger fallowed by Paladin. You get exp with basic combat. Arent overwhelmed by spells but get practice with it. You also get to play with an animal companion...so you can learn pet aspects.
Deciding what spells to memorize is tough. Deciding how and when to use them can be tough too. The Fighter's default action of "hit it with a sharp thing" is useful against almost all foes. I think this is why folks tend to recommend Fighters to beginners. There are probably better choices since melee tactics can be complicated. Even just building a Fighter or Ranger based on ranged attacks might help since those sorts of PCs can safely react to most situations with "I full attack with my bow!"
I have never seen a new player for whom starting with a wizard or cleric was the 'simplest' way to start. Certainly not the combination of the two.
Starting with which spells, blast, buff, control, utility, casting defensively, touch, ranged touch, ray, AoE, types of targets, duration, SR, which save, AoO for casting while threatened, spell books, when you can prepare, do you need to sleep, what does you deity require, what do you domains give you, domain spell slots, partial effects, energy resistance, immunities, spontaneous exchange of spells, metamagic, scrolls, etc...
Some of these give experienced players difficulty. I would never consider them easiest or simplest for a newbie.
I have met newbies that were able to start with a wizard or cleric and do ok (especially if they had played other sorta similar RPG's) and I will of course give a newbie a lot more advice and leeway while they are learning.
I think what usually works best for someone learning is a ranger that at least starts as a switch hitter.
Greatsword with power attack is going to be effective with nothing else (for low levels). Longbow with precise shot is also effective just at that (for low levels). Later, they can decide which they want to concentrate on and those 1 or 2 feats won't be completely wasted. Sometimes you do need to shoot and sometimes the bad guys get close.
Has enough skills that they can try to do different things and learn the skill system without getting overwhelmed. After a few levels, ranger starts getting a small number of spells so they can learn that aspect of the game in baby steps.
It is not the only way to go, but I've never had anyone encounter massive difficulties learning the game starting with a build like this. I have seen several people that tried to start with a full caster give up and decide the game is too complicated.
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Current Party Make-up:
Paladin-Built for Melee/Front Line
Rogue-Built for Melee-A bit of a loose cannon (main reason I want a healer around as this player seems to act first, check for traps after he is bleeding from them)
Druid-Feral Build
2 Hunters-Both Archery Builds
Wizard-BlasterI am well aware the value of Wands, and am encouraging them to pick them up before we level to 2. I also know that the majority of those classes will be able to use those wands with no issues. My concern is more along the lines of the young players not fully understanding what death will mean to their player in PFS play, and the desire (my own) to let their first experience carry more of the traditional gaming "group" setting that they see while playing computer games. I understand this may not be required, but I think they need to work together and rely on one another to complete missions. Tank, Melee, Ranged, Healer may not be ideal but I think it will offer them the most protection for a long term characters life. Perhaps they dont care.
My definition of a healer is a character who can keep the party alive while in the middle of combat. Out of combat healing can be done just fine by anyone with a wand, but drop a fireball on half the party and have the mooks move in to melee could leave them in a world of hurt if all they have is a couple wands. Perhaps this is the way the game is supposed to be played. Personally, I will give up a couple turns of damage so that a dedicated healer type can channel to keep players health topped off.
Well, if you're dropping fireballs on a level 2 party, that's a completely different problem. :-)
Remember that wands can be used in combat without provoking, while healing spells can't. If you don't have a channeler, your healer needs to invest in concentration checks, too.
Instead of trying to convince one of the kids to play the healer, you might want to look at why so few people ever want to play the healer. The healer character gets pigeonholed into a single role and never gets to do anything else. It's not unusual for other players to treat that character as an inanimate resource and not a contributing member of the party--hence the term "heal-bot". The newest or most inexperienced player is often stuck with the healer--a lot of times "because it's easy", but it can feel like the other players are dumping the crap job on the new guy.
A few years back, we had a problem in our area with healers being bullied by other party members--having their actions constantly dictated to them, getting berated if a member of the party goes unconscious, being told that it's "their job" to heal the party, so they have to spend all of their money on healing resources (scrolls, wands, potions) to supply to the rest of the party. We haven't that problem for a while now, but we also have a lot of players who learned that playing the healer always sucks, and we don't see a lot of healers.
This will be much less of a problem in your group, but the stereotype persists in the gaming world as a whole. You can alleviate a lot of it by considering the character more of a "buffer" or "general support" character rather than just "healer": it gives the role a lot more to do than "keeping characters topped off" or "ready an action to heal someone if they go down."
Here's how I recommend healing tactics for new players (these work whether or not you have a dedicated healer):
1) Characters don't need to be "topped off": they just need to make it through the end of the fight.
2) Based on how much damage your character took this round, calculate how many more rounds you can last before you go unconscious. Don't even worry about healing until the answer is less than 4. This estimate will be off if you've take an unusual amount of damage in one round (a critical hit, max damage, etc.), but you'll err on the side of caution with this method.
3) If you are down to 3 rounds, try to decide whether you can end the fight in 1 or 2 rounds. If you can, do so. If not, start healing. This is harder for new players to estimate: it just takes experience. (The GM can help here, by telling the player how badly hurt the bad guy looks.)
4) When you are down to 2 rounds, start healing. If you don't have a dedicate healer, back out of the fight and heal yourself. Make sure everyone has a potion that can cure 1/3 to 1/2 their hit points (on average). Five-foot step back, draw that potion, and drink it. (One of our players goes by the motto, "It feels pretty stupid to die with a cure moderate wounds potion in your pocket.")
5) If someone goes unconscious, count how many rounds they have to stabilize. If you know you can end the fight before they bleed out, then end the fight. If not, your first priority is to get them out of the line of fire: it won't do any good to heal them if another fireball is just going to kill them again. (The Reposition maneuver can be very helpful in this case.)
6) If you can't heal an unconscious person enough to make them last at least 2 more rounds out of them, then stabilize them and move on. Most of the time, they are better off staying out of the fight than standing up with 4 hit points, taking another hit, and going straight to dead. This is a mistake that a lot of players learn the hard way.
7) Communicate with your party members. If you have 2 rounds before you go unconscious, say so! Don't expect the healer to spend every move action doing heal checks to calculate your hit points. Tell them how hurt you are.
8) If one person is hurt, use a single target spell. If two or more people are hurt, use a channel. When using channels, be very careful that you don't stand the bad guys back up, also.
Obviously, your party members will want to customize these guidelines to fit their party makeup and situation, but these make for a good baseline to start with. I've used these guidelines on 14 different PFS characters, 2 of them retired now. I've had exactly 1 death among them all: that 1 death was to a critical hit on a empowered shocking grasp, and the GM rolled near maximum damage (the character went from no damage to dead in the surprise round). There've been some close calls, and several of my characters have spent most of a fight unconscious but stabilized, but that just adds to the drama without the trauma of an actual death.
Going through this whole thread, I'm a bit surprised nobody suggested dawnflower dervish; per the stylistic preferences of the group, it's melee focused, and it comes with slightly enhanced bardic healing abilities.
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Several people (myself included) suggested Bard as an option. Dawnflower Dervish is a Bard archetype. Note, however, that this is PFS with new players, and that Dawnflower Dervish requires several non-core books that most new players probably lack. In PFS play one must OWN the resource that describes all abilities, feats, etc. So DD tends to be an advanced option.
While I noticed the suggestions of bard and skald were already made, I felt dawnflower dervish archetype (which wasn't mentioned) warranted special attention since the OP said all of his players wanted to be melee specialists. I'll confess I didn't know about the book ownership requirement, but I see little harm in highlighting this option.
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No harm at all in mentioning the Bard archetype Dawnflower Dervish. It's a fine archetype. Thanks for mentioning it. :-)