RAW you can't prepare am spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it.I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)Why Copy it?
Honestly here is what my "main character" wizard usually does:
1. He keeps any spellbooks he finds.
2. Before he heads out he writes a new spellbook for the adventure he is currently going on.
3. He has several spell mastery feats, still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials.
4. He gives away old travel books to new mages on a fairly frequent basis.
5. Inscribing inks normally go with him as well as an empty book.
6. Materials for scrolls come with him as well.So while a given spellbook might be stolen or destroyed he's rarely in dire straits to have spells to cast. Honestly if you have a spellbook at all you have at least some spells to cast, as you can prepare from any book.
Where did you ever get that idea?
RAW you can't prepare am spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it.I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)Why Copy it?
Honestly here is what my "main character" wizard usually does:
1. He keeps any spellbooks he finds.
2. Before he heads out he writes a new spellbook for the adventure he is currently going on.
3. He has several spell mastery feats, still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials.
4. He gives away old travel books to new mages on a fairly frequent basis.
5. Inscribing inks normally go with him as well as an empty book.
6. Materials for scrolls come with him as well.So while a given spellbook might be stolen or destroyed he's rarely in dire straits to have spells to cast. Honestly if you have a spellbook at all you have at least some spells to cast, as you can prepare from any book.
You can, but it requires a check, and you have to make the check every time until you find the time to just transcribe the thing.
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I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)If only there was some kind of spell, that created some sort of plane that gave you twice as much as time as everyone else. I mean we're talking about casters so there has to be a spell for that. Oh that's right, Create Greater Demiplane is a thing. Of course if for some reason you can't buy a scroll of it even in the City of Brass (and every other metropolis that your called Hound Archon can check super fast thanks to Greater Teleport at will), then I guess you are just stuck using Plane Shift to visit an Erratic Time section of Limbo. At worst you lose a day and two spell slots. At best you gain 14,400 days. Several years should be enough time to copy everything. Maybe do some crafting and take up a time consuming hobby.
Round trip teleport for shopping is a single Planar Binding - Hound Archon away. A whopping one 5th level slot. Combine with another 5th level slot for Contact Other Plane and just play 20 questions with the universe to find where whatever you are looking for is. Seriously Diego Rossi, the solution to any problem you can throw at casters is magic. Good thing they have that then huh?
Because wizard are born at 17th level, they never live the firth 16 level.
"Surely" Hound archons are welcome in every city of the world. They mysteriously know every city of the world so they can use greater teleport to get there (you need a reliable description of your destination even with greater teleport).
Plane shift require "a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel". You "naturally" have it in your spell component pouch and "naturally" know the exact location of the limbo (a ever changing plane) where time is erratic. An so on and on.
You are so used to giving extra lax to spellcaster that you don't even realize what you are doing.
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RAW you can't prepare am spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it.I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)Why Copy it?
Honestly here is what my "main character" wizard usually does:
1. He keeps any spellbooks he finds.
2. Before he heads out he writes a new spellbook for the adventure he is currently going on.
3. He has several spell mastery feats, still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials.
4. He gives away old travel books to new mages on a fairly frequent basis.
5. Inscribing inks normally go with him as well as an empty book.
6. Materials for scrolls come with him as well.So while a given spellbook might be stolen or destroyed he's rarely in dire straits to have spells to cast. Honestly if you have a spellbook at all you have at least some spells to cast, as you can prepare from any book.
Where did you ever get that idea?
Reading the rules.
You can, but it requires a check, and you have to make the check every time until you find the time to just transcribe the thing.
You need to have recorded the spell in your spellbook before being able to attempt the check.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
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After you kill a caster and take the book, who's spellbook is it?
After you kill a caster and take the book, who's spellbook is it?Still some other guy class feature.
The rules are clear and giving tongue in check replies don't change them.
At which level on the wizard class table is the spellbook listed?
After you kill a caster and take the book, who's spellbook is it?Still some other guy class feature.
The rules are clear and giving tongue in check replies don't change them.
Spellbooks are items. Not class features.
Because wizard are born at 17th level, they never live the firth 16 level.
"Surely" Hound archons are welcome in every city of the world. They mysteriously know every city of the world so they can use greater teleport to get there (you need a reliable description of your destination even with greater teleport).
Plane shift require "a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel". You "naturally" have it in your spell component pouch and "naturally" know the exact location of the limbo (a ever changing plane) where time is erratic. An so on and on.
You are so used to giving extra lax to spellcaster that you don't even realize what you are doing.
Plane Shift is available at 13th level for Wizards. Despite you appearing to be sarcastic about it, you in fact do naturally have a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel in your Spell Component Pouch, because if you would kindly direct your attention to the rules:
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.
Since the metal fork has no cost the spell component pouch is assumed to have it.
Moving on to the next flaw in your argument, at no point did I say Hound Archons would be welcomed in *every* city in the world. However they would be welcome in a large number of them. And because they use Greater Teleport to get around they only need a reliable description of the metropolis. As I'm sure you know, Knowledge (Local) is local knowledge about *everywhere* so it is a simple DC 10 Knowledge Local to give the Hound Archon a description of literally any metropolis since a DC 10 Local gets you "Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations".
It's not that I'm being lax. The issue is that I am actually using the rules, while you creating hurdles for casters that in fact do not exist.
If your gaming world is full of people who are nothing but these types.... it's time to find a new hobby, because I can't see how any game would compensate for playing with a$~+$@*s I could not stand.If they care that bad they should get Craft Feats too.I love the selfish greediness there.
"We need you to craft our s$&@, we don't have time for you to get more powerful!"
Considering the number of posts in this forum about: "The greedy wizard want to craft for himself, he should craft for us, he is stealing from the party." I am fairly sure that there is a good number of people that take that position.
Which types?
I'm not saying saying the Wizard shouldn't craft for the party, if that's what you're implying by a#~+%~#. I'm just saying "Don't do your thing, you have to help me do my thing instead!" is a mite selfish.
I thought this was a thread about sorcerers, not wizards...
Eh, Sorcerers get Craft Feats too if they want. Same principle.
Since the metal fork has no cost the spell component pouch is assumed to have it.
The forked metal rod probably doesn't fit in the spell component pouch. In other places in the core rulebook, rods are typically 1 to 3 feet long. So by raw, you wouldn't have this focus sitting around in your spell component pouch.
Diego's main point through the whole thread is that the wizard is infinitely more powerful the more handwaving of the rules done in the game.
Moving on to the next flaw in your argument, at no point did I say Hound Archons would be welcomed in *every* city in the world. However they would be welcome in a large number of them. And because they use Greater Teleport to get around they only need a reliable description of the metropolis. As I'm sure you know, Knowledge (Local) is local knowledge about *everywhere* so it is a simple DC 10 Knowledge Local to give the Hound Archon a description of literally any metropolis since a DC 10 Local gets you "Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations".
It sounds to me like you play in a higher fantasy setting than most. I think in most Golarion settings, a Hound Archon would not be wasting time hanging around in a mortal city waiting for mortals to teleport around.
Anyway, please don't miss Diego's point here. The GM can restrict the wizard's power by using the rules.
Every caster has his own way of writing. That is why the spells have to be "decoded" so despite it being "your" spellbook because you killed the owner, you still can't read it easily.
3.5 had a rule in a splat book that allowed you to figure out someone's method of writing with one spellcraft check to avoid having to do this every day. <----While not RAW in PF, or even RAI, I think it is a good rule to speed up gameplay.
Since the metal fork has no cost the spell component pouch is assumed to have it.The forked metal rod probably doesn't fit in the spell component pouch. In other places in the core rulebook, rods are typically 1 to 3 feet long. So by raw, you wouldn't have this focus sitting around in your spell component pouch.
Diego's main point through the whole thread is that the wizard is infinitely more powerful the more handwaving of the rules done in the game.
Anyway, please don't miss Diego's point here. The GM can restrict the wizard's power by using the rules.
By RAW that rod is in the pouch. Those magical rods have nothing to do with a forked metal rod, which has no rules for its size. It could be wand sized or smaller.
I get DR's point, and many people do forget, or just dont know certain rules, but I would not say that everyone ignores the rules. Casters are just powerful.
The forked metal rod probably doesn't fit in the spell component pouch. In other places in the core rulebook, rods are typically 1 to 3 feet long. So by raw, you wouldn't have this focus sitting around in your spell component pouch.
Citation needed. If you want to make a point it helps to actually cite the rules like I did in my post to show that yes in fact those rods are in your spell component pouch.
Diego's main point through the whole thread is that the wizard is infinitely more powerful the more handwaving of the rules done in the game.
Anyway, please don't miss Diego's point here. The GM can restrict the wizard's power by using the rules.
Sorry, but when you actually follow the rules Wizards are extremely powerful. Thus Diego Rossi's point makes no sense, since in order to restrict the Wizards power you need to use GM fiat. So no the GM cannot restrict the Wizards without resorting to rule 0 and fiat, which is a meaningless argument.
Every caster has his own way of writing. That is why the spells have to be "decoded" so despite it being "your" spellbook because you killed the owner, you still can't read it easily.
3.5 had a rule in a splat book that allowed you to figure out someone's method of writing with one spellcraft check to avoid having to do this every day. <----While not RAW in PF, or even RAI, I think it is a good rule to speed up gameplay.
Then again read magic is a cantrip. So it is not like you can't read it easily.
RAW you can't prepare am spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it.I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)Why Copy it?
Honestly here is what my "main character" wizard usually does:
1. He keeps any spellbooks he finds.
2. Before he heads out he writes a new spellbook for the adventure he is currently going on.
3. He has several spell mastery feats, still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials.
4. He gives away old travel books to new mages on a fairly frequent basis.
5. Inscribing inks normally go with him as well as an empty book.
6. Materials for scrolls come with him as well.So while a given spellbook might be stolen or destroyed he's rarely in dire straits to have spells to cast. Honestly if you have a spellbook at all you have at least some spells to cast, as you can prepare from any book.
RAW you got no clue what you are talking about:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed SpellbooksA wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
So you can prepare the spell. You simply have to had it in your book first. It doesn't say your book has to be available, only that you had to have recorded it in your own book first.
Once that is done you can prepare it from someone else's book. Ergo you can prepare it from someone else's book which is the opposite of your claim.
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At which level on the wizard class table is the spellbook listed?After you kill a caster and take the book, who's spellbook is it?Still some other guy class feature.
The rules are clear and giving tongue in check replies don't change them.
Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
Spellbooks are items. Not class features.
Like a familiar or a animal companion?
They are both. You can have multiple examples of them, but another character spellboos stay his spellbooks for what concern the spells.Read the rules about writing spells in a spellbook. Until you write them with your had they aren't spell you have learned.
Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.
You need to have recorded it in your spellbook to prepare it. Not necessarily a spellbook you have owned from level 1, but a spellbook that is in your possessions when you write the spell in it.
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RAW you can't prepare am spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it.I find interesting that people that argue that wizard power is limitless and that they can know every spell never consider the time needed to write those spells in the spellbooks.
Money isn't a big problem, the cost is limited, but time?
Wizard: "I have found this enemy spellbook, there are 10 new spells, 20 levels of spells in all. I need 10 hours to learn the spell, then another 20 hours to copy them. 30 hours, 4 days."
Other guys: "You want to sped 4 days for that? We need to continue our adventure/we need you to craft 8.000 gp of equipment, we can't spare 4 days for you to copy your spells."1 hour to learn the spell + 1 hour/level to copy it cost time.
Having the inks require buying them in advance or finding a city. (I know, teleport. Like there wasn't a chance to miss-teleport, right? And that round trip teleport require 2 5th level spells,)Why Copy it?
Honestly here is what my "main character" wizard usually does:
1. He keeps any spellbooks he finds.
2. Before he heads out he writes a new spellbook for the adventure he is currently going on.
3. He has several spell mastery feats, still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials.
4. He gives away old travel books to new mages on a fairly frequent basis.
5. Inscribing inks normally go with him as well as an empty book.
6. Materials for scrolls come with him as well.So while a given spellbook might be stolen or destroyed he's rarely in dire straits to have spells to cast. Honestly if you have a spellbook at all you have at least some spells to cast, as you can prepare from any book.
RAW you got no clue what you are talking about:
Wizard Spells and Borrowed SpellbooksA wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation
So you can prepare the spell. You simply have to had it in your book first. It doesn't say your book has to be available, only that you had to have recorded it in your own book first.
Once that is done you can prepare it from someone else's book. Ergo you can prepare it from someone else's book which is the opposite of your claim.
Abraham, you have read what I wrote?
"RAW you can't prepare a spell from a borrowed speelbook until you have copied it."
You statement is exactly what I wrote.
To prepare a spell from a borrowed/looted etc. spell book you need to have copied it to your spell book. I never said you need to use your spell book.
The process used to learn a spell the first time require you to write it in your spellbook. After that there is no requirement to reference the copied version.
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But still not a class feature. More like a magic item. The Wizard is the owner of his spellbook. He can take and use spellbooks owned by other Wizards. This does not necessarily give him ownership of that, but he can use it with limitations.
Compare/contrast your examples, which are specifically class features, and do not, cannot, and will not be able to be used by other people.
Every caster has his own way of writing. That is why the spells have to be "decoded" so despite it being "your" spellbook because you killed the owner, you still can't read it easily.
3.5 had a rule in a splat book that allowed you to figure out someone's method of writing with one spellcraft check to avoid having to do this every day. <----While not RAW in PF, or even RAI, I think it is a good rule to speed up gameplay.
Then again read magic is a cantrip. So it is not like you can't read it easily.
That does nothing to counter my point that a dead wizard's writing suddenly are not easier to read just because he is dead.
I misunderstood what DR was saying. From what I understand the spell does have to be one that you have learned(in your spellbook). It however does not need to be prepared from your spellbook. If you have magic missile in your spellbook then you can prepare it from someone else's spellbook, but if you have never copied it into a spellbook then you can not prepare it from someone else's spellbook.
Why?
Because the rules say "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook,..."
There is no rule saying that you can prepare a spell that you do not know and that you have not copied into your spellbook.
I think RAI is that writing down the spell at least once in your own preferred notation is an essential part of learning to cast the spell.
Laughing touch is pretty ballsy as a last resort, but I would rather not be in a position where I need to make casting defensive checks followed by touch attacks.
A small nitpick, laughing touch does not require a touch attack.
But more relevant to the bloodline is it giving +2 DC to _all_ compulsion effects (which is nearly all offensive enchantment spells).
Laughing touch is pretty ballsy as a last resort, but I would rather not be in a position where I need to make casting defensive checks followed by touch attacks.A small nitpick, laughing touch does not require a touch attack.
But more relevant to the bloodline is it giving +2 DC to _all_ compulsion effects (which is nearly all offensive enchantment spells).
"Laughing Touch (Sp): At 1st level, you can cause a creature to burst out laughing for 1 round as a melee touch attack. A laughing creature can only take a move action but can defend itself normally. Once a creature has been affected by laughing touch, it is immune to its effects for 24 hours. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This is a mind-affecting effect."
It seems to say here that it does.Any nobody is saying that +2 on compulsion DC is not great(at least i dont) but if you compare it to other options it Is not number one.
Lol, I'm stupid. Sorry about that. Now I'll go hide in my corner :P
Like a familiar or a animal companion?
They are both. You can have multiple examples of them, but another character spellboos stay his spellbooks for what concern the spells.
Read the rules about writing spells in a spellbook. Until you write them with your had they aren't spell you have learned.
Arcane bond, Nature bond
Both are listed at level 1. You have not located where the spellbook is listed. You have not shown that it is a class feature.
That does nothing to counter my point that a dead wizard's writing suddenly are not easier to read just because he is dead.Every caster has his own way of writing. That is why the spells have to be "decoded" so despite it being "your" spellbook because you killed the owner, you still can't read it easily.
3.5 had a rule in a splat book that allowed you to figure out someone's method of writing with one spellcraft check to avoid having to do this every day. <----While not RAW in PF, or even RAI, I think it is a good rule to speed up gameplay.
Then again read magic is a cantrip. So it is not like you can't read it easily.
The cantrip deciphers magical writing.
The rule only specifies ownership.
If the rule really meant that you need to decipher the writing somehow then the cantrip does it, since that would make the rule pointless, it clearly must talk about ownership.
Ownership is more of a philosophical or legal question.
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The rule says you have to have recorded it in your spellbook. Generally if you just acquire a book through other methods you haven't recorded anything in it.
I'm with Diego on this one. Many of you guys let your wizards get away with a lot of stuff which makes them even more powerful.
Edit: Oh, and for those saying "Where does it list the Spellbook as a class feature?"
Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
It's not on the table? Text trumps table.
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You know when I read the comment about Rogues and Monks pitying the Sorcerer, I laughed, but it seems Sorcerers cant even have their own thread without Wizards invading. A sad fate indeed...
The rule says you have to have recorded it in your spellbook. Generally if you just acquire a book through other methods you haven't recorded anything in it.
I'm with Diego on this one. Many of you guys let your wizards get away with a lot of stuff which makes them even more powerful.
Edit: Oh, and for those saying "Where does it list the Spellbook as a class feature?"
It's not on the table? Text trumps table.Spellbooks: A wizard must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook. At each new wizard level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards' spellbooks to his own (see Magic).
Man I didn't know that wizards have every school's class features!
It's in the text, but not the table. But as you said text trumps table.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Man I didn't know that wizards have every school's class features!
It's in the text, but not the table. But as you said text trumps table.
Really? You're going to fight on "text trumps table?" It's a pretty fundamental rule of Pathfinder(and in fact most games in general) that when a table contradicts what's written in the text, the text is the correct source.
But even your spurious example is poor. The schools aren't listed under Class Features, like spellbooks are, but instead in their own heading. And the text says you only get one school.
But go ahead, please do show us where it's listed in the text that wizards get all the school powers. I'd love to see it.
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If I was the DM and the PC Rogue decided to steal and fence their ostensible ally's spellbook for 17.5 gold, because he could and it's easy money, that Rogue's player would find themselves outside of my home very, very quickly.Stuff.Yeah - I think if that happened, someone would get punched in the face. And I don't mean a character. :P...Even the party rogue taking the spell book and selling it in town is very reasonable. It's just too easy money. ...
I think this says it all...
We play very different games.
Why exactly? I mean, if he's playing a character who's a thief, which you the DM allowed in the campaign. Why is it a problem if he role plays this? Likewise, if the wizard can't keep his spellbook on his person, is this really the rogue's fault? Maybe your campaigns only allow chaotic good rogues?
There are also several spells for keeping track of the spell book, if the player isn't going to bother protecting the book, what purpose do those spells serve?
Though if chaotic good, perhaps the rogue steals the book to teach the wizard a lesson about keeping track of their book. They don't sell it, they hide it. A wise rogue, as the enemies will not be so kind.
I suppose it matters if your group discourages actual role playing, if you just want an "on task" hack and slash game it does make sense to discourage the rogue from any sort of rogue-ish behavior directed at the party.
Death or maiming as a penalty for even petty theft is pretty common in pre-modern societies. Stealing a man's spellbook is like stealing his horse in a western: it's likely enough to result in death if not recovered to be treated with the same seriousness as murder.
Well, this does assume that the rogue is both noticed and caught. Not much of a rogue if either are done.
I do think that if the rogue is in the party, one of the early things that needs to be established, is that the party members need to make a clear stance regarding inter-party theft. To do this they need to catch the thief in action and reprimand him/her. Killing them outright would deny the use of that party's rogue - which might be fine in your adventures. Maiming them could also be an issue.
In my opinion, a bell is the best punishment for an early level PC rogue. You catch them stealing, make them wear a bell for a week. As the DM, maybe a -5 or -10 to any stealth or sleight of hand attempts while the bell is worn. Should be enough to make further attempts fail, but doesn't harm the PC or cause long term issues for the party.
A financial penalty is also a good call. Make it expensive to fail.
Anyway, this is just low level. Ideally, the rogue learns to value their comrades during the campaign, or to fear them, which causes further theft to cease.
As for PCs that kill other PCs, it does greatly depend on the DM's tolerance and their setting supporting that behavior. In example, the CR is likely determined based on the number of PCs. If the PCs kill one of their number, does the DM reduce the CR? A DM with tolerance for PKing would lower it, as their are less players, or they'd allow a new PC to be generated by the old player to make the encounter balanced. A DM without tolerance for PKing would leave the CR the same and not allow an immediate additional party member from a replacement PC.
Personally, I'm of the intolerant group, where if the PCs decide that killing or maiming their fellow PCs is a viable solution, then they are prepared for harder encounters for a bit while I make room in my material for another PC to join. This also gives the player that created a PC that was deemed needed to die, to consider a different type of PC.
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Murdock, if the rogue can steal the spellbook because it's "in character for a thief", how is that different from the wizard killing the rogue because it's "in character for a meanie"?
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If I was the DM and the PC Rogue decided to steal and fence their ostensible ally's spellbook for 17.5 gold, because he could and it's easy money, that Rogue's player would find themselves outside of my home very, very quickly.Why exactly?
Because if they want to be c#&*s to their tablemates, they can do it somewhere the hell else. The intention is to tell a great story and have my players enjoy themselves, not to have them bickering and fighting because the Rogue was like "lulz he left his spellbook in his room, I'll just pawn it for some easy cash." That's not the kind of player I want in my games.
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Sometimes reading these threads feels like the secret season from the Big Bang Theory. Who is playing Sheldon?
<g>
Sorcerers have no problems. Wizards have no problems. They are two different classes each with their own advantages and drawbacks, and comparing them is moot.
Man I didn't know that wizards have every school's class features!
It's in the text, but not the table. But as you said text trumps table.
Text trumps table, text doesn't trump text (or well it can but not as a general rule). From the Arcane School class feature text:
Arcane School
A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic, gaining additional spells and powers based on that school. This choice must be made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed.
(my bolding)
I thought Marroar was agreeing with you about text trumping table, actually.
I'm not even sure anymore. I think "RAW" is my trigger.
Man I didn't know that wizards have every school's class features!
It's in the text, but not the table. But as you said text trumps table.
Text trumps table, text doesn't trump text (or well it can but not as a general rule). From the Arcane School class feature text:
(my bolding)Arcane School
A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic, gaining additional spells and powers based on that school. This choice must be made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed.
Ah yes, but under Arcane schools:
"Arcane SchoolsThe following descriptions detail each arcane school and its corresponding powers."
You get one from the arcane school class feature as listed on the table, but since everything listed under Class Features is a class feature (like spellbooks), then you must get every school ability too.
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You know when I read the comment about Rogues and Monks pitying the Sorcerer, I laughed, but it seems Sorcerers cant even have their own thread without Wizards invading. A sad fate indeed...
I don't mind the wizard invasion. It's their way of overcompensating for their sad boring text-driven lives...
Hmm