Mark Seifter wrote: Double composite with aether and specialization actually costs 2 less, so that would be 8. You forgot paying all the rest again on the quickened blast, so I guess it could go up by 10 more. If you were somehow allowed to do it, that would quite a turn. Quite a turn indeed. Indeed. But I wasn't considering any burn used on the standard action if you used another blast for it. Quickened gives you an extra standard by making your blast a swift, but since doubling lets me hit twice I usually use quickened to trade my standard as a move and get out after. In a single blast you get 2 from composite and aetheric, 2 from maxing form and substance, and 9 from all the metas, so in a single blast there's max 13, minus any charging (5 max) so 8 remaining. Since you max at 6 allowable in a turn, you have to drop 2 or more... Quickened is the easy answer for me, dropping me to 5 points of burn on a single very rude attack.
I'm picturing 40d6+60, +50%, maximized is close to +50% again, so nearly equivalent to 80d6+60, estimated damage of ~340. This does not include Elemental Overflow, con, or using whip as the chosen form. Then again, this is for 5 burn (3 if I used whip instead of a 4 cost form) and calculated at level 20 where everyone can do dumb amounts of damage and worse. Fun. Very fun. Especially for a haste whip. Four iteratives, which could max at around 1200+ dmg. Highly unlikely, very expensive, a turn to charge it, but definitely cool.
Just for fun, I decided to see how strong "Quite a turn" might be. I calculated over 1000 damage, if you hit with all four of the blasts. That could be with a nasty shape like many throw against numerous targets, and it may apply powerful status effects. The damage is just from composite and metas alone. Take that Cthulhu!
Shiroi wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Double composite with aether and specialization actually costs 2 less, so that would be 8. You forgot paying all the rest again on the quickened blast, so I guess it could go up by 10 more. If you were somehow allowed to do it, that would quite a turn. Quite a turn indeed. Indeed. But I wasn't considering any burn used on the standard action if you used another blast for it. Quickened gives you an extra standard by making your blast a swift, but since doubling lets me hit twice I usually use quickened to trade my standard as a move and get out after. In a single blast you get 2 from composite and aetheric, 2 from maxing form and substance, and 9 from all the metas, so in a single blast there's max 13, minus any charging (5 max) so 8 remaining. Since you max at 6 allowable in a turn, you have to drop 2 or more... Quickened is the easy answer for me, dropping me to 5 points of burn on a single very rude attack. Oh, for sure. This was in the magical land of using as much burn as you could use without any per-round (or total) limits.
Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster.
Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Well played, my mistake. Never looked that closely at it because I've never had to rely on exactly one attack enough to bother before.
Mark Seifter wrote: It's going to be equally loud and visibly impressive to that too! Which is perfect if you are looking for a Kamehameha attack, but maybe not as great for an assassin. Bah, you uncultured brutes know nothing about real assassination. Step 1: Bury target under thousands of pounds of earth and stone. Step 2: Run like the wind and hope they blame it on someone else.
Works every time, except when it doesn't.
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Rocks fall, everyone dies?
Best. Assassin. Ever.
I liked a rogue character that was told to make sure nobody knew the target was assassinated. So instead he levelled three blocks the dude happened to be walking past. When the casualties number dozens to hundreds, who thinks one person was the target? There were large numbers of magic items, with wands and necklaces of fireball first among them. Dunno what rock slides and blown up cities have to do with charging a turn while being very loud and glowing though. Any word on whether the effect will be primarily audio or video display? It determines what kind of illusion spells a gnome kineticist will be using to hide that little delay before the big boom.
Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Zere are...veys.
Just off teh top of my head, a Sensei Monk letting you cast it yourself, as an example.
Rynjin wrote: Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Zere are...veys.
Just off teh top of my head, a Sensei Monk letting you cast it yourself, as an example. Doesn't let you hit multiple times with it though. I also considered extracts, not sure if it's on the alchemist list though and you hit the same problem. Still, even hitting with just two of those (the full BAB and the haste full BAB) will one shot most monsters in the game, even well beyond CR 20.
Multiple extra arms and a wand of true strike might work... dunno how you'd get the extra actions, take hard work to convince a dm to let it fly.
Rynjin wrote: Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Zere are...veys.
Just off teh top of my head, a Sensei Monk letting you cast it yourself, as an example. Alchemist extract of True Strike. ;)
Shiroi wrote: Rynjin wrote: Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Zere are...veys.
Just off teh top of my head, a Sensei Monk letting you cast it yourself, as an example. Doesn't let you hit multiple times with it though. I also considered extracts, not sure if it's on the alchemist list though and you hit the same problem. Still, even hitting with just two of those (the full BAB and the haste full BAB) will one shot most monsters in the game, even well beyond CR 20.
Multiple extra arms and a wand of true strike might work... dunno how you'd get the extra actions, take hard work to convince a dm to let it fly. Obviously you just need to craft an item that gives you a persistent True Strike effect. Shouldn't cost more than a few thousand GP.
*ducks*
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
How about give earth something that can allow their blast to sunder armor/weapons?
Substance for earth and ice, makes a con based sunder check against a random object worn by the target? I could see it.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC)
Verzen wrote: What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC) Searing Flesh is considered a wild talent, so it would be 10 + effective spell level + CON. I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is, but Expanded Defense seems to indicate that it's 4, in which case the DC is 14 + CON.
As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote: I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is That's why I was confused. ;)
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote: As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall. Quote: MOVE EARTH
Element earth; Type Sp; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th, kinetic cover
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
As a standard action, you can push or pull a 5-foot cube of earth
or unworked stone within 30 feet, moving the cube 5 feet in
any direction. You can create raised platforms, stairs up a cliff,
holes, or other useful features. If you move the earth beneath
a creature’s feet, it can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to leap
elsewhere and avoid moving along with the earth.
I do believe that this ability makes Earth Climb practically useless. Need to climb the mountain? BAM stairs. Sure it may take longer, but outside of combat it's pretty superior. ;)
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Perhaps give climb when climbing earth a +8 bonus. Now for those who think this may be too powerful, look at the summoner and in particular the synthesis. They can get skilled for +8 to -any- skill... for just '1' evolution point. This would require a wild talent.. basically a feat.. which is equal to 1 evolution point when comparing it with extra evolution.
And it has even more restrictions since it is a requirement it be rock or earth.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote: Infusion Specialization (Ex): At 5th level and every 3 levels
thereafter, a kineticist chooses either form or substance
infusions. She reduces the burn cost of whichever type of
infusion she selects by 1 point (to a minimum of 0 points).
Does this mean that I choose either form or substance and ALL form or substance is reduced by 1 point or a specific form or substance is?
Verzen wrote: Quote: Infusion Specialization (Ex): At 5th level and every 3 levels
thereafter, a kineticist chooses either form or substance
infusions. She reduces the burn cost of whichever type of
infusion she selects by 1 point (to a minimum of 0 points).
Does this mean that I choose either form or substance and ALL form or substance is reduced by 1 point or a specific form or substance is? In the current playtest, if you choose Infusion Specialization (form), all form infusion costs are reduced by 1 burn. If you have Form x1 and Substance x1, then both Form and Substance infusions are reduced by 1. If you have Form x2 and Substance 0, than all Form infusions are reduced by 2.
In the release, Mark indicated that Infusion Specialization would be changed to it's original form, that is, Infusion Specialization reduces Form and Specialization equally. So you would total the cost of adding Form and Substance Infusions, then apply the reduction from Infusion Specialization. So if you have a Form with a 2 burn cost, and a Substance with a 1 burn cost, and you have Infusion Specialization x2, you would reduce your 3 burn cost down to 1 burn.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Could have sworn I saw it before.. maybe I am just going crazy but wasn't there an ability where earth could create a stone golem that did not have a will of its own and I can spend 1 burn to allow it to act independently of me so I dont have to maintain concentration?
Verzen wrote: Could have sworn I saw it before.. maybe I am just going crazy but wasn't there an ability where earth could create a stone golem that did not have a will of its own and I can spend 1 burn to allow it to act independently of me so I dont have to maintain concentration? You can use Spark of Life to create an earth elemental that lacks a will of its own, and spend burn to give it sentience.
Verzen wrote: Could have sworn I saw it before.. maybe I am just going crazy but wasn't there an ability where earth could create a stone golem that did not have a will of its own and I can spend 1 burn to allow it to act independently of me so I dont have to maintain concentration? You're thinking of Spark of Life which lets you summon an elemental.
Ah. Thanks! I knew I saw it somewhere!
Hey Mark Seifter. If you want some help figuring out any loop holes or outright cheesy things we can do with kineticist, feel free to ask me for help, helping you design this book.
I've played MTG for 20 years and played D&D/pathfinder for 15... My mind works by finding and trying to exploit legal loopholes.
Quote: AIR’S REACH
Element air; Type Su; Level 1; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
When using air blasts or wild talents, or composite blasts that
include air, double your effective range. This effect applies after
altering the range due to effects like the extended range form
infusion. This doubles only the effective range, not the area of
effect for wild talents like cloud and cyclone.
I think this is a case of trying to kill a cat with a tank....
I thought 480 feet was overkill....
But....... 960 feet range...? o.O
If the average run is 30 * 4 = 120 feet... and provided you can even SEE and SPOT an enemy that far away....
An enemy has to run for 8 turns before they can even catch up with him... And he can teleport with Ride the Waves 980 feet away if they came close. He could ultimately kite any monster.. ever.... And in PFS.. there's no map that is 196 squares long... hahahaha!
Quote: "Ah. Thanks! I knew I saw it somewhere! Woops. Forgot to log off my account. (Verzen's my roommate. Only have one computer to share, though!)
Is it really so hard to not quadruple post? There's an edit button for a reason.
Ashram wrote: Is it really so hard to not quadruple post? There's an edit button for a reason. Please, yes. Don't spam the threads with a bunch of posts of random thoughts. Collect them all into a single post, especially since most of your rapid-fire posts are made only a couple minutes apart.
Nox Caedes wrote: Hey Mark Seifter. If you want some help figuring out any loop holes or outright cheesy things we can do with kineticist, feel free to ask me for help, helping you design this book.
I've played MTG for 20 years and played D&D/pathfinder for 15... My mind works by finding and trying to exploit legal loopholes.
In case you are not aware, Paizo ran a month long playtest to let multiple people in the community do exactly this. The whole point of the playtest was for Paizo to put out a the class, and then ask the community to find anything broken with it, either things that don't work, things that work too well, things that are clunky, or post ideas for further improvement or new ideas to better it.
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Tels wrote: Brief reality check. Thank Desna someone said something. Don't know if I would have been that nice.
Personally, I think the kineticists should get some thematic elements automatically so they feel more variable.
Fire should get
FIRE SCULPTOR
Element fire; Type Sp; Level 1; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
You can sculpt shapes out of flame or alter a fire’s spread. As a
standard action, you can move one 5-foot square of an ongoing
fire per kineticist level you possess to any square contiguous
to that fire. For instance, a 4th-level kineticist could move
4 contiguous squares from the center of a 20-foot-by-20-foot
fire to the fire’s edge in order to create a safe path to escape.
The fire continues to spread normally after you sculpt it, so on
the following rounds, it may reignite the areas from which you
moved the flames.
For free
Air should get
AIR CUSHION
Element air; Type Sp; Level 1; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
You can cushion a fall from any height using your control of air.
You are constantly under the effects of feather fall. If this effect
is dispelled, you can call it forth again as a standard action.
For free
Aether should get
LIGHT TOUCH
Element aether; Type Sp; Level 1; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
You are able to control the raw telekinetic power surging within
you, allowing you to move objects in a less violent manner.
This ability is similar to mage hand except you can move
an object that weighs up to 5 lbs. per 2 kineticist levels you
possess (minimum 5 lbs.) and you can move magical objects. If
you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase
the range of your light touch to medium range and increase the
rate of movement to 30 ft. per round, and if you possess the
extreme range wild talent, you can increase the range of your
light touch to long range and increase the rate of movement
to 60 ft. per round.
For free
Earth should get
MOVE EARTH
Element earth; Type Sp; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th, kinetic cover
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance no
As a standard action, you can push or pull a 5-foot cube of earth
or unworked stone within 30 feet, moving the cube 5 feet in
any direction. You can create raised platforms, stairs up a cliff,
holes, or other useful features. If you move the earth beneath
a creature’s feet, it can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to leap
elsewhere and avoid moving along with the earth.
For free
And water should get
WATER MANIPULATOR
Element water; Type Sp; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th, kinetic cover
Saving Throw none; see text Spell Resistance no
While all hydrokineticists can move water, you have trained to
be able to manipulate massive quantities of water. As a standard
action, you can raise or lower the level of water as if using control
water or move an equivalent amount of water to a different
place in range. The water remains where you placed it for as
long as you continue to spend a standard action to concentrate
on this effect. This wild talent also causes a slow effect on
creatures made of water, just like control water (Will negates).
When you cease concentrating, the water flows normally, unless
you accept 1 point of burn to extend the duration and lock the
water in its current position for 10 minutes per kineticist level
you possess.
For free (And why is it a level 6 wild talent when the fire version is level 1???)
They will be getting stuff like that for free.
So in terms of format, Mark Seifter, do you plan to arrange the Wild Talents by first level, then by element, then by alphabet?
The way it is currently seems very disorganized.
Nox Caedes wrote: So in terms of format, Mark Seifter, do you plan to arrange the Wild Talents by first level, then by element, then by alphabet?
The way it is currently seems very disorganized.
I like that it's alphabetical. Makes finding specific stuff faster, and it's the format they use for spells and such.
Cadvin wrote: Verzen wrote: What's the kinetic defense's (for fire) save? (DC) Searing Flesh is considered a wild talent, so it would be 10 + effective spell level + CON. I'm not entirely certain what spell level kinetic defense is, but Expanded Defense seems to indicate that it's 4, in which case the DC is 14 + CON.
As a side note, I feel like Earth Climb needs just a little bit more. Maybe make it function like Spider Climb, or make all surfaces, no matter how smooth, have a base DC of 25/30. The mighty Geokineticist can toss boulders and see through rock, he shouldn't be thwarted by someone who decides to sand down a castle wall.
From the Occult Adventures Playtest pdf wrote: All wild talents have a required kineticist level, and most
have an effective spell level. However, blast and defense wild
talents are always considered to be a spell of a level equal
to half the kineticist’s level (maximum 9th level at level 18).
Nox Caedes wrote: Personally, I think the kineticists should get some thematic elements automatically so they feel more variable.
...
Why is Move Water a level 6?
...
Do you plan to reorganize the talents?
Paraphrasing, cutting a bit out, but here we go.
In his post mortem (since we're out of the Playtest phase and the playtest data from many people has been used to update how this class will work, and many people have asked for basic elemental control) Mark told us he would be lobbying for a talent gained when you first access a new element,for free, which would give raw control over that element. We don't yet know the specifics.
Secondly, look up manipulate water. At high levels this ability is capable of moving water the weight of 7 blue whales or more. For free. For long periods of time. This can drain lakes in hours, decide on the fly whether a temple will be an underwater temple (wizard, I'm going water elemental get everyone else a polymorph) or suddenly not a water temple (either way most of your encounters just suffocated), hold entire cities hostage, and even level a castle under a block of ice the size of a building. Sixth level is frankly too early for it.
For the talents, they're actually ordered like feats. Combat, non-combat, and other. Then alpha. You couldn't sort by element, because many are multiple element. To sort that way, you'd need multiple entries (drastic increase in word and page count) and to add sections for the composite only blasts and such, which would result in many small sections alphabetized. Especially if you did it by level first. It would be REALLY random then, because I've got to find the x level section, the magma section, then whatever ability I want to look at. Now I just say "it's a blast talent, check there and look under b for burning."
And for statistics, control water affects 10 ft/lvl x 10 ft/lvl x 2 ft/lvl. At level six, this means 60x60x12. This is 43,200 cubic feet of water. Water weighs 62.4(truncated) pounds per cubic foot. So the moment you take that talent, you can move 2,695,680 lbs of water overhead. Control water is range long, so it has a 400+40/lvl range. That's 580 feet at lvl 6, and the ability says to another space in range. So this 2 ton water-brick is moving from one edge of the ability to the other, a total of 1160 feet, in six seconds. That's 193.3 feet per second. A hair over 130 mph. Literally the impact of a large high speed front end car crash. At lvl 6. It gets worse from there. Freeze the ice? Worse, because it doesn't give like water anymore. Freeze it into a 2 ton icicle battering ram? Problems. And yeah, I'm saying 2 ton, because the full 1,350 tons that a level 6 is capable of moving is very hard to put into perspective. A ton, 2,000 lbs, makes nice car crash analogies. The full strength of this ability makes nice nuclear warfare analogies.
Just for kicks, at 20th level the current manipulate water moves 200x200x40, or 1,600,000 cubic feet of water 2400 feet in a round. This now translates to 99,840,000 lbs, or 49,920 tons, moving at 272.72 repeating miles per hour. This is quite nasty. The closest relevant sized object I could find was an iowa class battleship. Moving at over 250 mph. This would hit like a building falling on you. Even if a half-orc weighing 360 lbs as a medium creature became colossal, they'd be around 1.5 million lbs, not 99 million. In fact, you'd have to be two size categories above colossal to be this heavy.
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So can you kill a terrasque with that? ;)
Mechanically, it doesn't do anything except move water around, because it doesn't say that it does. No damage, no bull rush, nothing of the sort, and no physics calculations required.
So what as a DM do you rule happens when this monsoon-in-a-can hits? Even just the *suddenly the monster has no air available* is dangerous. We're talking about distances across for this sphere that most creatures can't swim in a turn, so if they don't breath you just kite them around in the water until they stop twitching. That's the best case scenario for a monster or NPC that a hydro wants dead : to live long enough to be really, really scared. The alternative is instant death from the impact, which is far more realistic.
Shiroi wrote: So what as a DM do you rule happens when this monsoon-in-a-can hits? Even just the *suddenly the monster has no air available* is dangerous. We're talking about distances across for this sphere that most creatures can't swim in a turn, so if they don't breath you just kite them around in the water until they stop twitching. That's the best case scenario for a monster or NPC that a hydro wants dead : to live long enough to be really, really scared. The alternative is instant death from the impact, which is far more realistic. I picture something like... this.
Ah, but see, that wasn't 130+ miles per hour, and it moved a whole battleship with just the very tip ever touching people. Nor was it frozen, as this has the potential to be. :)
To add one more figure, the one that I feel counts for more than the mass of the water... terminal velocity for a human is roughly 120 mph. This is 10 over at it's weakest. Terminal velocity into water is usually pretty terminal. It get worse as the range (and therefor speed) increase, and if the water is frozen or carries debris.
As DM, I would allow the lack of air to be a problem of course, but I would not allow this to be an at-will colossal+ wrecking ball of doom in most circumstances. I might rule-of-cool it, depending on the situation.
Rynjin wrote: Tels wrote: Shiroi wrote: Hah, 1000 to a crowd beats my math, but just from what can actually be done at 20th, I got 1200+ to a single target for 3 burn (see my edit)
Since the strongest hp creature I can find is a CR 39 Lucifer with less than 1000 HP, this is instant death if done correctly (a single kineticist with 4 wizards preparing to cast true strike as prepared actions in sequence on each attack, and a guardian of some kind to keep the kineticist from dying long enough to charge up.
True Strike is a personal range spell and can't be cast on anyone other than the caster. Zere are...veys.
Just off teh top of my head, a Sensei Monk letting you cast it yourself, as an example. Go with the Silver Spindle Ioun Stone.
I agree with Lavawight. There is nothing in the rules on a large volume of water falling on something, other than heavy rain. All the ability says that it does is move water and you can leave it in one place (for a decently long time by accepting a point of burn). That's it.
Even if you're looking at the falling objects rule, At the most you'd take 20d6, assuming you can convince your gm that the water you have is as dense as stone; if not, you're looking at 10d6 (assuming you're talking about a fall of more than 150'), or 5d6 from 30' or less.
And they get a DC 15 reflex save for half, assuming they can see the water that's going to fall on them.
PRD wrote:
Falling Objects
Table: Damage from Falling Objects
Object Size
Damage
Colossal 10d6
Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.
Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.
Good spot. 10d6 for colossal, halved for low density. Ranged touch (it's thrown not falling, no reflex). Could hit many enemies (as many as it moves through). The speed is far in excess of 150 feet, even in a single round, so doubled. At level six you do 10d6 touch bludgeoning to a crowd, with suffocation (no save). Not nasty enough yet? Add objects suspended in the water and hit with those too.
I would assume that it would be falling, as you would basically have to stop concentrating on the spell to get it to drop (as simply moving the water into someone's area doesn't do anything, regardless of how fast it moves). Also, If you're just moving in water, you can hold your breath for a really long time (2x Con mod in rounds, before you have to start making saves), so suffication is not really a combat time-based thing (as even if the person you dropped the water on were fighting, they most likely would have at least a minute of combat to do things). Also, nothing in the power says that you would be able to move anything but water. Anything else would be left where it was when the water moved.
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