Hi all,
I tried to search for any advice on this topic but couldn't find any good sources, so sorry if I'm reposting.
I'm new to PF and I've been wondering if there becomes a point where you really don't need to put any more ranks into certain skills. So I wanted to open this question up to the community:
What is your recommended max total bonus for each skill before you start to waste ranks?
Thanks all in advance!
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You haven't said what class you are playing, what you are doing, etc.
For example, if you were playing a gnome summoner with magical linguist trait, you would only need 3 ranks of linguistics to pick up all the summoning languages you would ever need.
What you need for skills depends on what your PC wants to do.
A bard with versatile performance is going to max some of her perform skills, because by doing so, she gets boosts in other needed skills like diplomacy, bluff, intimidate or sense motive. Or even acrobatics or fly. Non bards won't care as much.
If you are a face character, you can never have enough diplomacy. If you're not a face, maybe you only get enough diplomacy to reliably aid others in their skill rolls.
If you have an animal companion, you will need enough ranks in handle animal to easily retrain your buddy in a single session. For most characters, this is five ranks. If you have a high intelligence companion with lots of tricks, you will want more ranks than this.
Most characters who do combat will likely want 3 ranks in acrobatics, but high dex types will want far more.
My answer is: it depends.
Hmm
He's asking when DCs for certain skills stop rising, and any number of ranks past those points would be a waste.
Hi all,
I tried to search for any advice on this topic but couldn't find any good sources, so sorry if I'm reposting.
I'm new to PF and I've been wondering if there becomes a point where you really don't need to put any more ranks into certain skills. For example, I'm sure that you would recommend a higher Perception than Climb. So I wanted to open this question up to the community:
What is your recommended max total bonus for each skill before you start to waste ranks?
Thanks all in advance!
do you get a lot of skills or not much? Do you have a high int,wis, or cha?
If the answer is not many and no, then I answer with, 0 as someone better skilled will handle it. you have no bonus to skill and no skill points to stay competitive.If you get a fair amount and have bonus to a mental stat, my answer is, never, as most skill checks are opposed, meaning that enemies with more ranks makes a harder check, and you have a nice bonus for it so pump it sky high.
For something that has static DC, enough ranks to do the Static DC thing you want to be able to do.
Given the existence of circumstance penalties and RAW-sanctioned GM-specific uses for skills, that's a pretty complicated question. It really depends on the character and the campaign. In general, a skill rank is only wasted if you never have the opportunity to use it at that level of difficulty.
That said, save your GM a headache and don't put a rank per level in Craft (wicker basket) unless you really like making wondrous wicker baskets.
do you get a lot of skills or not much? Do you have a high int,wis, or cha?
If the answer is not many and no, then I answer with, 0 as someone better skilled will handle it. you have no bonus to skill and no skill points to stay competitive.If you get a fair amount and have bonus to a mental stat, my answer is, never, as most skill checks are opposed, meaning that enemies with more ranks makes a harder check, and you have a nice bonus for it so pump it sky high.
For something that has static DC, enough ranks to do the Static DC thing you want to be able to do.
Maybe we can just keep this theoretical at the moment? Meaning, it doesn't matter what my class is nor how many skills ranks I get per level.
@Chess Pwn I appreciate the feedback about opposed skills vs static ones. Any interest in writing out what you think each of the static DC skills should be maxed at?
There seems to be some confusion about what I'm asking. In order to illustrate my point, let's look at the skill: Perception. What's the difference between having a total bonus of +12 vs +18 in Perception. Do you find that these extra 6 skill ranks into Perception really make a difference? Do you think it's possible to spend those 6 skill ranks into other skills that might make a bigger impact?
Ultimately, my question is asking how to maximize your skill ranks?
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Hi all,
I tried to search for any advice on this topic but couldn't find any good sources, so sorry if I'm reposting.
I'm new to PF and I've been wondering if there becomes a point where you really don't need to put any more ranks into certain skills. So I wanted to open this question up to the community:
What is your recommended max total bonus for each skill before you start to waste ranks?
Thanks all in advance!
If you have more skill ranks in a skill than you have hit dice, then that's too much.
Other than that, depending on character, I keep about x-3 (give or take a couple depending on class) maxed where x is the number of total skill ranks I get. But I spread it out thinner than that over the first few levels so that I can get at least one skill rank in each skill that's a class skill so I can be somewhat good at it for little effort. (class skill is an extra three, so it bumps it up by four for the cost of one, or even more if it's a trained only skill and you have a good mod for it)
edit: Specifically about perception: yes. I keep perception maxed out on every single one of my characters. (unless I know I'm going to be bad it and know that someone else in the party is going to keep it maxed out). As your perception goes up, so does their stealth skill. If you stop putting points in perception while they keep putting points in perception they're becoming harder and harder to spot.
I think there's a very definite difference between +12 Perception and +18 Perception. A DC 25 Perception check is not atypical, and that makes a difference between a 35% chance and a 65% chance.
I think there's two questions:
1) Which skills are so marginally useful that putting ranks into them is wasted?
2) Which skills have low static DCs so putting many ranks into them becomes wasted?
For category 2, Swim and Climb come to mind. These are checks you don't want to fail, but typically have low DCs. Ride probably also falls in this category - the DCs are static, and once you have enough ranks to do what you want to do, any more is wasted.
As for category 1, these are skills that I think of as RP skills since the game doesn't really require them, generally. Appraise, Craft, Heal, Linguistics, Perform, Profession, and Sleight of Hand are ones that are only useful in pretty specific circumstances. Sure, and alchemist wants points in Craft (alchemy), a bard wants ranks in Perform, and a pickpocket wants maxed-out Sleight of Hand, but these are the skills you probably won't really be using for your typical character.
I think there's a very definite difference between +12 Perception and +18 Perception. A DC 25 Perception check is not atypical, and that makes a difference between a 35% chance and a 65% chance.
I think there's two questions:
1) Which skills are so marginally useful that putting ranks into them is wasted?
2) Which skills have low static DCs so putting many ranks into them becomes wasted?For category 2, Swim and Climb come to mind. These are checks you don't want to fail, but typically have low DCs. Ride probably also falls in this category - the DCs are static, and once you have enough ranks to do what you want to do, any more is wasted.
As for category 1, these are skills that I think of as RP skills since the game doesn't really require them, generally. Appraise, Craft, Heal, Linguistics, Perform, Profession, and Sleight of Hand are ones that are only useful in pretty specific circumstances. Sure, and alchemist wants points in Craft (alchemy), a bard wants ranks in Perform, and a pickpocket wants maxed-out Sleight of Hand, but these are the skills you probably won't really be using for your typical character.
Thanks for that RumpinRufus. I do think that it's good to clarify category 1 skills and to point out that they are more RP skills than essentials.
However, your category system is missing a category: category 3 is everything that isn't categories 1 or 2. And from what I'm understanding from other posters is that if given the opportunity, they would have category 3 skills maxed. But do you really need to have a + 30 total bonus for Stealth?
I'll point out again, I'm new. So I really don't know if you want a +30 to Stealth. As Claudekennilol points out, I didn't know that Perception was used to spot Stealthed enemies. Good to know.
do you get a lot of skills or not much? Do you have a high int,wis, or cha?
If the answer is not many and no, then I answer with, 0 as someone better skilled will handle it. you have no bonus to skill and no skill points to stay competitive.If you get a fair amount and have bonus to a mental stat, my answer is, never, as most skill checks are opposed, meaning that enemies with more ranks makes a harder check, and you have a nice bonus for it so pump it sky high.
For something that has static DC, enough ranks to do the Static DC thing you want to be able to do.
Maybe we can just keep this theoretical at the moment? Meaning, it doesn't matter what my class is nor how many skills ranks I get per level.
@Chess Pwn I appreciate the feedback about opposed skills vs static ones. Any interest in writing out what you think each of the static DC skills should be maxed at?
There seems to be some confusion about what I'm asking. In order to illustrate my point, let's look at the skill: Perception. What's the difference between having a total bonus of +12 vs +18 in Perception. Do you find that these extra 6 skill ranks into Perception really make a difference? Do you think it's possible to spend those 6 skill ranks into other skills that might make a bigger impact?
Ultimately, my question is asking how to maximize your skill ranks?
See, anything that you don't want to fail and is opposed put ranks in it. A +12 perception opposed to a +18, Yes, because you want to see those stealthed enemies sneaking up, so they don't get a surprise round. +30 stealth means that your that much harder to spot.
EX opposed:I'm lv4 and have a +6 stealth, guard is lv4 with +3 perception.
I'm lv5 now and still have +6 stealth, guard is lv5 also, now with +4 perception. I just "got worse" at my skill for not keeping up with it.
EX not opposed assuming you want auto-pass:
Ride, if I want to "Guide with knees" I need a +4 so my lowest roll is a 5 to auto pass.
If I want to "Fight with a combat-trained mount" I need a +9 so I auto pass.
if I want to "Fast mount or dismount" i need a +19 to auto pass.
Anything more than a +19 is a waste for these options as you can't use that skill any better.
NOW ride can be used with mounted combat to negate a hit to your mount, in which case you want that to be as high as you can to have a better chance of negating that hit.
So static is the DC isn't changed, there are set DC's for what you want to do. Opposed means that different enemies have different values, so a harder enemy is better, so you want to keep it super high to continue to have a good chance of succeeding.
Knowledge skills are useful and I invest in them whenever I can up until a total score of about 15. That is usually enough to find out plenty of information even on a bad roll. Any more investment is prolly overkill since the DM withholds little on a good roll and often just hands over the monster's bestiary entry for an exceptional roll. I generally only put ranks in knowledge skills that already class skills for a character.
When I decide to have a character invest in them, the skills that I never stop adding ranks to are: acrobatics, bluff, diplomacy, disable device, intimidate, sense motive, sleight of hand, spellcraft, stealth, UMD. These skills are either opposed checks, have scaling DC's or have benefits for getting a super high roll on the check. It's unlikely that I would invest in all of these on a single character. I would decide on a focus, sneak or diplomacizer or such like, and max out the relevant skills.
All of my characters have maxed out perception and I will often spend a trait to make it a class skill if it's not already. It's the most commonly used skill in the game and is often rolled as an opposed check.
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My socialite characters tend to max diplomacy and bluff. I *should* be maxing sense motive, which I suck at, but there are usually others in the party better at that high wisdom skill.
The DCs to change someone from hostile to helpful can be really tough. With bluff / sense motive, you wind up getting into opposed skill check territory. Right now, I am playing in an AP where Hell Knights and Inquisitors are in high supply. Both tend to have excellent sense motive skills, so my character's bluff skill has to be as high as I can get it.
I tend to use a lot of "not a lie" half-truths around these characters because geting caught in a lie can cause me to wind up with my head on a pike in the area I'm in.
I have yet to put a point in perception, and my perception rolls are laughably bad. But my party is full of rangers, inquisitors, and rogues. With everyone else having a high perception, I've decided that my sorcerer with very few skill points can let this one skill slide...
Hmm
Really, the way to figure this out is to look at the skill descriptions, decide what you want to be able to do, and get enough ranks to do that. You also have to decide if you want to succeed on a take 10 or get enough for an auto-succeed every time (on a 1).
Acrobatics is another skill like Ride. The basic DC of moving across slippery surfaces is static, but the DC of moving through a threatened square is based on the opponents' CMD. And a jump check is based on the distance: if you want to jump a 10 foot gap, then 10 is high enough; if you want to jump 40 feet, then you need a 40.
Most skills will have this kind of progression. "How many ranks is enough" is completely dependent on what you want the character to be able to do.
But I spread it out thinner than that over the first few levels so that I can get at least one skill rank in each skill that's a class skill so I can be somewhat good at it for little effort. (class skill is an extra three, so it bumps it up by four for the cost of one, or even more if it's a trained only skill and you have a good mod for it)
That's the most important thing: put one into all your class skills, ASAP, or else you're just letting stuff go to waste.
IMHO you should then target the skills that are most important for you and max those every level, assuming you have enough points to throw around.
I try to keep 1, 2 or 3 spare points every level to put into things I want to be able to *try* (especially if you need a rank to even get a roll), favoring skills linked to my higher stats.
I've never yet played a character with less than 14 INT (even a fighter!), simply because I really like having skills.
Thanks all for the responses. From what I can tell, most of you don't think there are ever total bonus caps on at least half of the skills (bluff, acrobatics, stealth, etc.).
Let me put my question another way:
At levels 5, 10, and 15 what should your total bonus be for these "category 3" skills? Assume that they are all the same "cap" per level since most posters aren't differentiating between these category 3 skills. Diplomacy can drastically alter the outcome depending on the total bonus so we can disregard this skill.
I ask this because many players have pointed out that these skills need to be maxed because they oppose characters of a similar level.
Lastly, I strongly believe that there is a "cap" to these skills per level since I think you would all agree that having a Perception bonus of +30 at level 5 isn't recommended in order to find stealthed enemies. It helps, but isn't necessary.
So what do you recommend?
Thanks all for the responses. From what I can tell, most of you don't think there are ever total bonus caps on at least half of the skills (bluff, acrobatics, stealth, etc.).
Let me put my question another way:
At levels 5, 10, and 15 what should your total bonus be for these "category 3" skills? Assume that they are all the same "cap" per level since most posters aren't differentiating between these category 3 skills. Diplomacy can drastically alter the outcome depending on the total bonus so we can disregard this skill.
I ask this because many players have pointed out that these skills need to be maxed because they oppose characters of a similar level.
Lastly, I strongly believe that there is a "cap" to these skills per level since I think you would all agree that having a Perception bonus of +30 at level 5 isn't recommended in order to find stealthed enemies. It helps, but isn't necessary.
So what do you recommend?
Dude a +30 perception at lv5 would be AWESOME!!!
skillslv 5 = 3(class skill)+5+"3 or 4"(ability mod)=~11-12 at least to be 'good'. Though you'd want something that gives a bonus, say another +2or3. So a 15 at lv5 will be quite good.
If you're focusing on the skill lv10=3+6(ability)+10+~8=27
If you're focusing on the skill lv15=3+6(ability)+15+~8=32 at least
Now these are all for being one of the best at it, and hopefully succeed more often than not.
To sum up, I feel the "cap" is however high you can get it with whatever amount you're willing to put into it. If your willing to put in money and feats then go and be the very best. Like no one never was.
These are all by RAW. YMMV based on GM and Circumstantial modifiers he/she invokes.
Since your new, taking 10 means you are considered to roll a 10 on the dice, which cuts your ranks needed down by 9 if you want to guarantee success everytime. For instance, if you have 10 ranks in appraise, you can take 10 to hit 20. If you have 10 in Swim, and your in stormy water with a DC 20, you have to roll a D20 and add it to it, which means you have a 45% chance of failure.
Acrobatics: No Limit, Always Useful
Appraise: A DC 35 will let you find the most expensive item in a pile of loot (a huge pile) and tell if its magical. There is no DC higher than this. This seems extremely circumstantial though and DC 20 tells you the value of an item, and detect magic if its magical. Therefor, unless sneaking in and out of dragon hoards, +10 is the most you'd need, then just take 10 outside of combat. Most GM's never even use appraise (I do but I'm weird).
Bluff: No Limit, Always Useful.
Climb: Generally 1 rank(if a class skill) and forget it. For very specific campaigns (like if there is no magical flight, or you spend all your time underground and want better maneuverability) it may become more useful. The highest DC by raw is 35, but you can double your movement rate by taking a -5 on the check (so DC 40 really). Since this may be a skill you have to use in combat, if you can't take 10 it COULD go all the way to 39.
Craft: No limit, but if your gm uses RAW crafting rules your better off not crafting.
Diplomacy: No Limit, Always Useful. DC's can get very high depending on how much aid you need. If you can hit 50 you can make hostile sorcerers reveal state secrets though, so not bad!
Disabel Device: No Limit, Always Useful. I have seen DC's in the 50's, though by raw its really hard to get over 40 (50 if you are somehow deprived lockpicks).
Disguise: No Limit, Always Useful - Note though, only when its useful, which is a very small number of campaigns.
Escape Artist: No limit if its gonna be your get out of grapple card, or if you get tied up or locked up a lot. Otherwise, not all that useful.
Fly: By RAW it looks like the highest DC is 25, but you can take up to a 16 point penalty on it, boosting that to 41. Depending on how you get your fly speed you may get a bonus (like the Fly spell is good, so you have a +4 while using it). Since you often can't take 10 because of combat having a 40, while probably overkill, pretty much guarantees success. Failing fly checks tend to suck pretty badly.
Handle Animal: Pushing an animal is DC 25. You get a +4 if its for your animal companion, and probably can't take 10 when pushing him(due to combat). So a +20 for your Animal companion isn't ridiculous, but if you have most the tricks you only need to consistently hit DC 10. If you want to rear wild animals taking it higher is probably a good idea. HD is often much higher than CR. Most campaigns this is not really a factor though, but hey, yours may be an exception!
Heal: Highest DC is poison/disease DC. I believe the highest RAW DC's are right around 25-28. You can usually take 10 on this, so +15 can probably get you most the time.
Intimidate: No Limit, Always Useful, especially if using it to actually intimidate.
Knowledge's (Monster Lore): No Limit, Always Useful. More info is more better.
Knowledge's (Other): The highest DC I've ever seen by something published by Paizo was 45 or 50, but you can get most things with a 25 or 30, and can usually take 10 on these.
Linguistics: How many languages do you want? I believe people underestimate this skill because they say "theres always tongues." My problem with that is half the time the act of casting "tongues" initiates combat with those folks you just wanted to diplomacize with. I've seen this written in quite a few published materials where "if someone casts a spell the peaceful people who could help advance the plot attack," and its something I use as well in home games. If your forging stuff in an intrigue campaign you'd probably want high ranks, but overall not that useful.
Perception: Seriously, no limit. So good, all the time.
Perform: It only nets you tiny amounts of cash, but for bards no limit because of versatile performance.
Profession: Nearly worthless most the time, but occasionally something like Soldier or Sailor is really useful. Very campaign specific though, your GM should let you know if a profession will hold any real value (hopefully).
Ride: Riding bareback on an inappropriate mount the highest DC is 30. With only one of those its 25, and otherwise its 20. Often won't be able to take 10 on it. If you're using Mounted Combat, avoiding hits is good, so probably keep it maxed.
Sense Motive: Counter to bluff and intimidate to cause shaken. Can't be too high if your in the right campaign. If your GM loves dazzling display a good thing to keep maxed.
Sleight of Hand: Can never be too high, but it tends to be very dangerous and not particularly useful most the time (this coming from someone who has a few characters with this maxed.)
Spellcraft: Highest RAW DC is 29, which you'd be able to take 10 on. If using it for crafting there could be higher DC, probably a DC 40 could craft nearly any item, and you can take 10 on craft checks.
Stealth: If its useful, it worth keeping maxed. If a class skill and you aren't using it, its worth putting 1 rank in anyway.
Survival: Highest RAW DC is 41, but some classes (ninja at least) can increase the DC even higher. My experience is tracking is pretty rare though and there is usually an alternate way to find what your looking for. I guess it could be a big help if you have to get to person in X amount of time before they get executed or something.
Swim: Highest RAW DC is 20, and you can't take 10 on it.
UMD: Highest RAW DC is 35, but you can't take 10 on it.