Dr.FelixUrr's page

Any rulings on the Jingasa?

You can try out this source to figure out what you're missing:

Rounding Out Your Party

I assumed that your Inquisitor was melee and here are the higher ranking classes it suggests:

Alchemist (Bomber)
Gunslinger
Monk (Zen Archer)
Oracle (Flame)
Sorcerer
Wizard

If the Inquisitor is ranged, it suggests most of the above but includes a Witch as useful.

The main question Lunchbox3000 is were you having fun as an Alchemist?

Thanks all for the responses. From what I can tell, most of you don't think there are ever total bonus caps on at least half of the skills (bluff, acrobatics, stealth, etc.).

Let me put my question another way:

At levels 5, 10, and 15 what should your total bonus be for these "category 3" skills? Assume that they are all the same "cap" per level since most posters aren't differentiating between these category 3 skills. Diplomacy can drastically alter the outcome depending on the total bonus so we can disregard this skill.

I ask this because many players have pointed out that these skills need to be maxed because they oppose characters of a similar level.

Lastly, I strongly believe that there is a "cap" to these skills per level since I think you would all agree that having a Perception bonus of +30 at level 5 isn't recommended in order to find stealthed enemies. It helps, but isn't necessary.

So what do you recommend?

I think there's a very definite difference between +12 Perception and +18 Perception. A DC 25 Perception check is not atypical, and that makes a difference between a 35% chance and a 65% chance.

I think there's two questions:

1) Which skills are so marginally useful that putting ranks into them is wasted?
2) Which skills have low static DCs so putting many ranks into them becomes wasted?

For category 2, Swim and Climb come to mind. These are checks you don't want to fail, but typically have low DCs. Ride probably also falls in this category - the DCs are static, and once you have enough ranks to do what you want to do, any more is wasted.

As for category 1, these are skills that I think of as RP skills since the game doesn't really require them, generally. Appraise, Craft, Heal, Linguistics, Perform, Profession, and Sleight of Hand are ones that are only useful in pretty specific circumstances. Sure, and alchemist wants points in Craft (alchemy), a bard wants ranks in Perform, and a pickpocket wants maxed-out Sleight of Hand, but these are the skills you probably won't really be using for your typical character.

Thanks for that RumpinRufus. I do think that it's good to clarify category 1 skills and to point out that they are more RP skills than essentials.

However, your category system is missing a category: category 3 is everything that isn't categories 1 or 2. And from what I'm understanding from other posters is that if given the opportunity, they would have category 3 skills maxed. But do you really need to have a + 30 total bonus for Stealth?

I'll point out again, I'm new. So I really don't know if you want a +30 to Stealth. As Claudekennilol points out, I didn't know that Perception was used to spot Stealthed enemies. Good to know.

do you get a lot of skills or not much? Do you have a high int,wis, or cha?

If the answer is not many and no, then I answer with, 0 as someone better skilled will handle it. you have no bonus to skill and no skill points to stay competitive.

If you get a fair amount and have bonus to a mental stat, my answer is, never, as most skill checks are opposed, meaning that enemies with more ranks makes a harder check, and you have a nice bonus for it so pump it sky high.

For something that has static DC, enough ranks to do the Static DC thing you want to be able to do.

Maybe we can just keep this theoretical at the moment? Meaning, it doesn't matter what my class is nor how many skills ranks I get per level.

@Chess Pwn I appreciate the feedback about opposed skills vs static ones. Any interest in writing out what you think each of the static DC skills should be maxed at?

There seems to be some confusion about what I'm asking. In order to illustrate my point, let's look at the skill: Perception. What's the difference between having a total bonus of +12 vs +18 in Perception. Do you find that these extra 6 skill ranks into Perception really make a difference? Do you think it's possible to spend those 6 skill ranks into other skills that might make a bigger impact?

Ultimately, my question is asking how to maximize your skill ranks?

Animal companions can have ranks in any of the following skills:

Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Fly* (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim* (Str).

All of the skills marked with an (*) are class skills for animal companions. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can put ranks into any skill.

-2 +3 = 1. So you're right about the intimidate.

YOur wolf should have SEVEN tricks. 3 per point of intelligence (3x2=6) and then 1 more bonus trick off the chart.

Thanks for the breakdown Flutter. I left out the bonus on purpose but it's a good reminder. And thanks for the clarification.

Also, you wrote a great guide with helpful citations. Thanks so much for that!

Hi all,

I tried to search for any advice on this topic but couldn't find any good sources, so sorry if I'm reposting.

I'm new to PF and I've been wondering if there becomes a point where you really don't need to put any more ranks into certain skills. So I wanted to open this question up to the community:

What is your recommended max total bonus for each skill before you start to waste ranks?

Thanks all in advance!

If the wolf tries to Intimidate a creature that is smaller than itself, it also gains another +4 bonus due to the size difference.

Cool. Thanks Nefreet for the info about the +4 for size mod.

As I stated earlier, it's nice to double check my numbers with PCGen since there are things I have missed in the past. Guess this all makes sense though.

Thanks

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me what my level 2 Druid's animal companion (wolf)'s intimidate total would be after placing all 3 skill points into it?

I ask because I know that the Wolf gets a -2 CHA mod for it's 6 CHA score. It would get +3 for the ranks. Lastly, Intimidate isn't a class skill for an AC so I would calculate the Intimidate score to be +1 overall.

However I'm using PCGen to track a few things. This has helped me because I saw that the AC started off with 6 tricks known which confused me because I thought it only started with one because of the bonus trick known. Anyway, when I look at the Wolf's Intimidate score, it has a +3 misc mod, raising the total for Intimidate to +4.

Can anyone verify which is correct, the +1 or the +4 for the total points in my Wolf's Intimidate skill? If you say the Wolf would have a score of +4, can you explain what the +3 misc modifier is from?

Thanks all in advance!

A caster doesn't usually have much reason to dip levels. Other caster classes will just give them some low level magic in exchange for the high level magic of their first class they could have had. Non-caster classes won't give them anything that will help their casting. Especially with only the two books, there's not much reason to dip. Monk at least can add your Wisdom to your armor class when you're using Wildshape and have no armor anyways, and Monk of the Lotus gives you a potent Wisdom-based power.

An interesting way to participate in combat with Wildshape and Spell would be to turn into a Fire Elemental and cast Flame Blade. Assuming you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to make your touch attacks with Dexterity, Strength is irrelevant. As a Fire Elemental you get a bonus Burn effect on anything you hit with a melee attack, and your dexterity and natural armor both increase.

By level 8, casting Flame Blade before a battle gets you a 1d8+4 fire damage attack, and being a Medium Fire Elemental gives you 1d6 Burn and lights foes on fire. Empower Spell metamagic gives Flame Blade a +50% bonus to total damage too, and a full attack action by 8 also means two Flame Blade attacks. Not a bad option if and when you want to get your hands dirty.

Wow BadBird. So much research to be done in order to learn a character! I haven't even begun to look at my Wild Shape ability in that much detail to see what spells would go well with what forms. That's a really unique combination.

I just finished reading The Forge of Combat and I'm suspecting that until my group starts to feel comfortable playing PF, I'm going to have to play the role of the arm and the anvil while the other two are playing the hammers. Knowing this, I think I'll shine in my group until the Sorcerer starts to look at her other spells.

Thanks for the ideas!

@Noctani The call animal sounds interesting. With my stats the way they are, my Wild Empathy check only gets a small bonus, and with my luck it would probably fail. I'll try anything once though so thanks for the suggestion!

@DocShock yeah I understand that as a caster Druid I limit what I can dip into. I'm not as worried about being a level or two behind in getting spells since I'm more interested in creating an interesting character.

Does anyone else think its weird that caster Druid's don't have many successful dipping options?

Dipping for casters is generally a bad idea. Slows down your spell progression.

Do you want some higher level spells, or a lot of lower level spells?

Thanks for the warning Brad McDowell. I'm more interested in having fun than breaking a character. This thread is just to get ideas on a class/game I've never played before.

@Some Other Guy I'd be surprised if my campaign will be going up to level 17 in order to get the 9th level spells for a druid. My GM told us that we should expect level 15-16 instead. But you've raised my curiosity; what 9th level spell are you referencing?

@GM_Solspiral here are my following stats (tell me if I missed something):

Human Druid lvl 2

HP: 18

STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 19
CHA: 12

Nature Bond: Animal Companion(Wolf)

I get 7 skills a level which happens to be the highest in the party. I am with two others, a Paladin and a Sorcerer, so I have charismatic ladies in my party. I've created a druid with a shadier past who tries to fill part of the role of the Rogue in the party. Also, got the template for the Druid from Treantmonk's guide.

As for Dips: I can see how those would all be helpful. I'll have to look into the Cleric domains to see if any jump out at me that fit with my character. The Zen Archer Monk seems like he would fun to play, but maybe for a different character since I'm not sure I want my Druid to be so physically based. How does Wild Shape combine with the Zen Archer Monk dip?

Any other DIP ideas for a druid?

Thanks all!

Go through your summons list. Alternatively read some threads, guides, or posts on optimizing summons.

You may find you only need one or two of the creatures per level 90% of the time.

If you focus on heavier summoning with Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning feats and so on be sure to have the statblock of the final version of the summoned creature with all of it's modifications.

Word of warning: multiple summons can severely clog down a battle. Know exactly what they can do, and summon them in limited quantities.

+1 for Natural Spell. It's amazing.

Spell-wise some are dependent on the campaign but here's a few I'd consider (other than summon nature's ally)

Core
Guidance: when in doubt, give your buddy that +1.
Magic Stone: actually pretty nice against undead.
Flaming Sphere. Under-appreciated spell. Great way to block off a corridor.
Lesser Restoration. Right now it looks like you are IT when it comes to restoring ability damage.
Summon Swarm. Powerful against enemy casters. Very dangerous (will hurt allies) so use carefully.
Barkskin: slap on your pet (and yourself) before entering a dungeon.

APG
Touch of the Sea: situational, may not apply to your campaign. But if you need to swim...it's very nice.
Stone Call. Great AoE plus control....

Great advice! After spending most of my time learning classes and feats, I'm finally able to focus on spells. There's so much to consider with them especially once you start to think about metamagic feats. With your recommendations and other posters', I'm planning out my favorite spells for future levels. Of course, this will all be circumstantial depending on the campaign. Flame sphere is definitely on one of those lists. I've also heard that it's pretty good with a Dazing Spell metamagic. I'm bummed that there aren't better buffs for allies though. Seems like battlefield control will be how I shine.

I am thinking about creating a separate thread for this next question:

Anyone ever dip their caster Druid into anything else they found useful or fun? I had never thought about doing this, but I was just starting to explore this idea. Most recommendations I see are for more physically built Druids unfortunately. *sad face*

Thanks Rerednaw!

AHA! Found 'em!!

Woah Nefreet! That adds so much flexibility to the game! I'm slightly drooling right now! Haha.

Thanks for your help with this and to everyone else.

I'm always interested in hearing what spells you have created through this rule, but maybe that's best left to a different thread.

Metamagic. You have good carriers for dazing spell. Lingering spell turns blasts into short duration control. Persistent spell is usually an increase in effectiveness. Heighten might be chosen as a prerequisite for preferred spell. Elemental Spell is pretty limited, but if you wind up preferring and perfecting an elemental damage spell other than flame strike you might want it to get around energy resistance.

[Snip]

Improved Initiative is always nice, though you'll eventually be stacking size modifiers to dex from wildshape either as a diminutive animal or a huge air elemental. (The latter should be able to cast spells without natural spell as long as you pick up your component pouch after shaping for the day and whirlwind form counts as stormy weather for boosting call lightning).

Thanks for the recommendations! Metamagic is something that still eludes me, so your post helps clear a few things up. The Lingering Spell feat seems interesting, but seems geared more towards fireballs and such, although I can see a few uses for it myself already. Dazing Spell seems nice too, but that's a feat for a few more levels since it adds three more levels to any spell I know.

And I already have Improved Initiative ; )

Any other feats or equipment people suggest?

I should have put this in the OG post, but here's another combo I've wanted to try out:

Produce Flame + Extend Spell (Metamagic): A nice damage spell for low levels.

Anyone else have feats they like for Druids that aren't the usual summoning feats (eg. Augment Summoning)?

Basically, this rule is you can make any spell you want, if your GM approves it. The cost and time for doing so is whatever your GM says, at a minimum of what is listed.

It's really just rule 0 in print.

Discussion of spell research should be done with your GM, not on the rules boards, because anything we come up with may not be applicable to your home game.

Thanks Imbicatus. I definitely will talk to my GM about this. I've mentioned this in other threads, but forgot to mention it in this one (it's hard for me to keep track). I'm new to PF along with my fellow players and GM. I'm asking these questions on the rules board as a spring board for a discussion between myself and my GM. Obviously I wouldn't attempt anything without the consent of him. Thanks for the reminder though.

@Claxon That makes sense about the blaster wizard/sorcerer. I'll probably be hitting the books again to see if there's any sort of interesting way I could alter a druid spell to fit more inline with my own character's backstory. Thanks!

claudekennilol wrote:

GM_Solspiral wrote:

The limit to this skill is your imagination.

Or the GM if he doesn't want you controlling a pack of animals.

This is important. Take heed of how much you clog the battlefield and don't create a disruption that slows the game way down. Outdoor settings are fine, but small rooms can cause issues. I had my druid get stuck in a corner when a summoner filled the room up and my guy almost died. luckily he was built for melee combat and beat down the foe before he got the beat down.

Sounds like something I would (inadvertently) do. Haha.

@Claxon Fantastic explanation. I really appreciate this.

To get back to my original point:

What applications of the New Divine Spells rule have you guys/ladies used to create interesting/fun spells or combos?

Also, I'm assuming everyone understands this rule similar to how Nefreet explains it in the second post, since this is how I will interpret this rule going forward.

@BretI I'm starting to see some of the failings of the FF + Obscuring Mist combo. If I were to get close enough to envelope the enemies in the mist, I'd more than likely be within the 5' of vision. If the enemy is outside of the mist but my allies are within after FF is cast, then only ranged would gain the benefits of the combo. Others combos may be better.

@GM_Solspiral This is a fun thought! I'll have to learn more about this. Any resources you can point in my direction? I referenced the CRB and I would assume that you would have to Rear from Wild an animal in this fashion. Otherwise domesticate an animal that you keep in captivity? This seems like the few times that Wild Empathy would help.

I've also been reading about some interesting applications for Love Potions and other such magical equipment. This has been making me think about what items/magical items to get first.

Any thoughts? I'm not just looking for the usual Resistances/Amulets/Wands but also fun applications of random wonderous items.

Dr.FelixUrr wrote:

Part of your response confuses me though. You say that a divine spell is granted by a deity, but I've read that Druids don't require a deity. Faith maybe, but not a deity. Are you saying that my Druid requires a deity to be casting his spells?

That's not what he said.

Claxon wrote:

a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it.

Whoops. Totally right Nefreet. My bad @Claxon.

Any thoughts on my second point Nefreet?

Most of the good stuff starts kicking in 2nd level spells or higher.

Equipment tricks I adore including using a thunderstone as sling ammo against casters. Low level casters have issues with being deafened.

Umm.. I'm in love with this idea! Thanks so much!

@prototype00 That's a lot of damage. Unfortunately I've built myself more as a caster so my strength is set at 10. 0x1.5 doesn't help much. : (

Thanks for the tips! Keep them coming!

Everything has to be approved by your GM first and foremost.

In general, it is bad form to allow a player to steal spells from other spell lists. In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another. A GM should be very hesitant to allow you to just take the spell from another class.

But to clarify one thing, a druid can never learn an arcane spell, though he might be able to learn a spell that appears on both arcane and divine spell list. A druid can only cast divine spells. What's the difference? Well a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it. Arcane spells are subject to spell failure chance. Scrolls can be made as either divine or arcane spells, and you couldn't use a scroll of an arcane spell even if it was on your spell list as a divine spell because it is fundamentally different.

If you do take spells from other spell list I suggest your GM look at wish/miracle for ideas how to balance it. Upping the spell slot used by 1 to 2 levels is decent way to balance it out, but still shouldn't be done willy-nilly.

Good to know! I thought that a week was a long enough time in the grand scheme of a campaign that learning a few extra spells wouldn't be too game changing, but I can see how that would be "bad form." Thanks!

Part of your response confuses me though. You say that a divine spell is granted by a deity, but I've read that Druids don't require a deity. Faith maybe, but not a deity. Are you saying that my Druid requires a deity to be casting his spells?

And although you described the sources of divine casters vs arcane caster, that doesn't describe why certain spells are arcane vs divine and why some are both. Can you elaborate on this?

Thanks!

*EDIT* Reread what Claxon wrote thanks to Nefreet. I have to level up my reading skill.

I've always interpreted the "Independent Research" rules as creating your own spell (or a variation of an existing spell) and not simply gaining spells from other lists.

You could research a corrosive version of Produce Flame, for example, or customize some sort of plant-themed spell unique to your character concept.

But, however you go about doing it, it's really about the interaction with your GM. They'll have to approve anything you come up with (which may include something as simple as adding Fireball to your spell list).

YMMV.

That makes sense. That was a third interpretation that I had forgotten to mention. Thanks for the answer.

Does everyone else agree with this?

@Shar-Tahl Woah. Stirges are pretty awesome. As I've said, I'm pretty new. In order to summon this swarm, would the best thing to do is say that I summon a swarm of stirges, then show my GM the Stirge creature? It's a noob questions, but I'm serious.

@BretI I really want to love Obscuring Mist, but we haven't run into a situation with much range yet so I haven't found a use for it quite yet. That's why I'm interested in the Fairie Fire + Obscuring Mist combo, but I wonder if I'm limiting my usefulness by taking one of my 3 level 1 spell slots with Fairie Fire. Do you like this combo?

Overall, I've been given a lot of great ideas. In so much as as spells are involved, the battlefield control of a low level Druid sounds a little limited. Since I haven't heard a lot of ways to control the battlefield through items (rope, caltrops, etc.), I'm assuming there aren't many successful ways for me to accomplish this.

That said, I view my secondary role in the party is to buff. Any suggestions on buffs for a low level Druid?

Hi All,

I'm pretty new to PF and I was reading around the CRB this morning when I came across this passage:

New Divine Spells

Divine spellcasters gain new spells as follows.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, she learns al of the spells from that level automatically.

Here's the interesting part. It goes on to say:

Independent Research: A divine spellcaster can also research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless she decides to share it with others.

I'm playing a low level Druid. The simplest way I'm willing to interpret this is that I would be able to learn Cleric spells that a Druid doesn't learn in the same manner as a wizard researches spells. This means it should take at least a week to learn and at least 1,000 GP per level of the spell.

However, there are plenty of arcane spells that divine casters can learn as well. This raises questions about what makes an arcane spell arcane opposed to divine.

My questions are as follows:

• Do I understand the rules about a Druid learning a Cleric spells through this rule in the CRB?
  
• Can a Druid learn arcane spells in this manner?
  

Thanks all in advance!

Dot

You could always try an Arcane Duelist if you want to build upon the backstory with some magic.

Sounds like you're getting a lot of good advice for what you want to build.

If I was playing WotW, I would want an evil enchanter sorcerer to make people do whatever I wanted them to do. I think this would go over well in an evil campaign and let you not only be the "face" of the party, but allow you to do some really evil things.

I've seen builds that involved cross-blooded sorcerer using the bloodlines of fey and infernal to increase your DC's or fey and serpentine to enchant more than just humans (sounds less important in WotW).

Summoning is very powerful for a Druid and are perhaps the best battlefield control period.

At your level, Mudball is surprisingly good.

When you get 2nd level spells there's some obvious choices but one that often gets no love is flaming sphere. You can move it 30ft for a move action every round it persists and still cast other spells after round 1.

Create pit plus hydrolic push = awesome until you start facing off against flyers.

Nice combos! Keep them coming!

The mudball spell sounds really fun. Too bad its from Advanced Race Guid.

To reiterate, we are only able to use Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide. This is because we are all still learning PF and how to roleplay. We're all new to PF! Yay!

**Edit**

I'm also just looking for ways to spice up combat. Not just combos (although these are very welcomed). That's why I have a few caltrops and hope to use them, just don't know how to. Haha

Hi All,

So I'm a level 2 Druid in a three person party with a burst sorcerer and a paladin. I have a wolf animal companion that I rolled pretty lucky on his HP. Here are my thoughts:

So far the paladin and the wolf are our main sources of damage. I'm hoping to fill the roll of battlefield controller with my caster druid sitting in the back lines casting and summoning.

I'm very new to roleplaying and to PF and my party is limited to CRB and APG for our spells, items, etc.

I'm looking for advice on a few things:

1. What are various ways to control the battle field?
2. What equipment would help me control the battle field and what are creative ways to use them?
3. Any tips for how to use a low level druid?

I'll tell you what I know already:

1. Entangle melee enemies
Fairie Fire + Obscuring Mist
Expeditious Excavation under the sorcerer and let her blast away with magic missile then duck down.
2. Caltrops can be used to control the battlefield, but I'm not sure how to use these well. Same with tying people up during battle? Could I have my wolf hold one end of a rope in his mouth and try to clothesline people with it?

Once again, looking for not only mechanics, but also roleplaying tips since I'm not very adept at it yet.

Thanks all in advance!

Serisan,

Sounds like you have a lively and interesting PFS at your local game store. I've heard of a close game store that runs a PFS, so I'll have to look into it.

And thanks for the tips for picking up the pace in combat. I've actually looked into that separately since this thread was more about roleplaying and IC vs OOC (although I couldn't verbalize it correctly at the beginning).

I've gotten some really great tips on how to RP, and I realize that I just need to be more vocal about what my plans are, even if I have to explicitly say, "OOC."

Thanks all

Pan,

I have actually been looking into PFS to do exactly that: get more experience! So it seems we're in agreement.

Any advice on how to get started on PFS? I looked around on the interwebs for a PFS close to me and didn't find one that was closer than 30 miles to where I live (and I live in a pretty big city). Seems like there are online PFS's but that they only happen once or twice a year? Do I have this right? Let me know.

Thanks again!

Great, thanks Torger. Discussion with the GM it is. . .

JoeJ,

Thanks for those ideas! I'll ask my GM but I doubt he will have any problem since, as you put it, there's nothing our characters can really do that the GM doesn't know about.

Thanks again!

. . .

So basically I recommend being a sneak to the best of your sneaky ability, but be a team playing sneak.

- Torger

HAHA. Well described. I'll definitely keep this in mind. I think my character is more inclined towards a "team playing sneak," as you put it.

As an exercise in imagination (and for someone who likes covert characters), what's one of the best ways for the Rogue to sneak away in the Duke scenario you painted above? Does the Rogue say, "look over there," and then she sneaks away? Is it best for her to be stealthed beforehand as the rest of the party goes in to talk to the Duke? Do you have a third idea in mind?

. . .

Some might not like that because either it ruins the surprise or they cant help but metagame after the info has been revealed. Some folks prefer to stay in first person no matter what. Each table is different and I think you need to explore the options available to you. It starts by having the discussion though so make sure you take a few min next session to talk play style.

Good luck!

Thanks so much for the friendly advice Pan. I agree that this is a discussion we have to have and making the difference clear between IC and OOC and metagaming as RumpinRufus suggests.

We're new, what can I say!

Have you led many new player campaigns? Do you find that this is common, or that players tend to frown upon clandestine actions from players?

Anyone else have roleplaying tips?

The important thing to understand is the difference between in-character (IC) and out-of-character (OOC), and the dreaded collision of the two (metagaming.)

When you tell everyone "I'm going to the inn", that is IC, because it's something your PC is telling the other PCs. When you then tell them "but I'm really going to hide on the roof" that is OOC, because the other characters don't know about it, even if the players know about it. Then, you have to assume that the other players will act in good faith and act as if their characters don't know you were lying. If they use OOC knowledge (or "player knowledge") and act as if they know it IC ("character knowledge"), that is metagaming and should be frowned upon.

As far as getting on the roof, just tell the GM "I want to climb up a nearby roof where I can keep an eye on [X]." And then, he will decide how that will be done, probably involving a Climb check to get on the roof, and a Stealth check if you're trying to be discreet about it.

Thanks again RumpinRufus.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you describe the difference between IC and OOC and metagaming. Since I'm still learning how to roleplay, I felt that in the town square scenario I wasn't allowed to make my OOC intent known. Now I know that I can, and should!

Not to toot my own horn, but I think I have a better grasp of the differences between IC and OOC than the other PC's. Any advice on how to handle metagaming? Should I have a discussion with my GM and allow him to police any metagaming instead of trying to do politely do it myself?

Thanks all

RumpinRufus,

I agree with the fact that it would be shifty. That's especially why I felt bad to contradict my GM. I didn't want to come across as a bad sport.

JoeJ, is there any circumstance when passing notes between PC's is beneficial or even allowed? Since I'm new, I can't really think of a situation when this would be good except for strategy reasons maybe.

Also, can anyone answer my question newb questions about the rooftop example? Is it best (for clarity during roleplaying) to just tell everyone one thing then point blank tell them its a lie by declaring what my real actions are? Is passing notes the best way to do this?

Also, do you find that fellow players don't normally like this kind of attitude?

So, you told your GM you were going back to the inn, and then you were upset when he placed you back at the inn?

If you weren't going back to the inn, you have to tell the GM what you're doing. Remember, the GM is god, he has to know where everyone is at all times. There is no such thing as "keeping secrets from the GM", except perhaps regarding future plans.

So yeah, just tell him what you're doing. If you don't tell him what you're doing, how is he supposed to know what you're doing?

Thanks RumpinRufus. Since I'm new, it's a good reminder! Any advice for correcting roleplaying mistakes for a newb besides just, "tough cookies?"

Without having heard exactly what was said by whom it's impossible to be certain what went wrong, but it was probably just miscommunication; what the GM thought your character was doing didn't match what you wanted your character to be doing. Anytime you're moving around without plotting it on a map, you need to make very sure you both understand what's going on. Don't be afraid to ask somebody to repeat back what they think you said, or to do that yourself if they're describing something.

Also, passing notes to the GM is a time honored way of doing things without letting the rest of the party know what you're up to.

Thanks JoeJ. I'll have to remember to pass notes to my GM. That's great advice! Does it work with PC's too?

Hello Dr.

I think the core of the problem is right here.

Dr.FelixUrr wrote:

<snip>...I knew something wasn't right and since my character is naturally distrusting I made up a lie to get away from my fellow adventurers and tried to shrink into the shadows.

The problem arises in that I roleplayed my way out of the town center, and before I knew it, the GM had me placed on the complete opposite side of town when the fight broke out...<snip>

Lack of communication.

How does moving "into the shadows" get your PC out of the action? More to the point - How does your PC end up on the other side of town and you don't know that until all heck breaks loose?

Hi Quark Blast,

I think moving into the shadows is just my use of flowery language. I just wanted to get out of the crowd.

I ended up on the other side because I fabricated a story that required that I went back to our inn (on the other side of town). I never declared my actual intent, which is totally my fault. I had thought I was going to get another chance to change things before the fight. Before I knew it, the GM said I was at the inn.

Is this normal? Any advice on how to correct a roleplaying mistake?

I'm having a hard time understanding these questions. Roleplay is the game. Even when you are rolling in combat or skill checks, you are roleplaying ("I charge forwards and hit it with my sword" is a different action fitting a different role than "I ready my weapon and wait for it to advance").

If you feel like you are not getting a chance to react to events you are present for, let the GM know that you are new to this and need a moment to decide what your course of action will be.

However, in the scenario above it seems the problem was not that you didn't get a chance to roleplay, but that you decided the best role to play was one in which your character went off and did their own thing. This is known as "splitting the party" and it's generally considered a bad idea, especially for new characters. I would recommend coming up with reasons why your character would not want to do this. For example, if they're suspicious, they might be worried about walking into a trap alone - thus they'd be more likely to find a hidden vantage point within view of the festival where they could observe proceedings than to wander off to the other end of town. By finding a spot on a rooftop, for example, you would probably have been able to spot attacks coming but still been able to participate in the fight.

Good points Weirdo. You're right in that I "split" the party and much of my loss of XP is my own fault. I completely understand that. And I really like the idea of taking a post up on top of a rooftop. I'll have to try that!

I didn't make this clear, but we are all new to Pathfinder (and roleplaying) including the GM. You might be confused by my questions because a lot of what we are doing is just reacting to what the GM tells us. We aren't very experienced at roleplaying the actions that you described.

That said, I have a noob question: how would I roleplay the repositioning on top of a roof? Is it as easy as expressing the lie to my fellow adventurers and the GM then following it up with a declaration that I'm taking a position on the roof?

My hesitation for this comes from the people I'm playing with and their reactions to whenever I don't do something "straight forward." Since we are all new to PF, I find that we are playing it pretty linear without much imagination. It's a linear as the GM telling us "there's a disturbance over there," and we all move in that direction. I want to spice things up a bit and try things outside the box.

My questions are asking how do I roleplay this without upsetting my GM and my fellow players. Do I have to express my motive behind all my roleplaying decisions?

Lastly, just to clarify the town square example I gave: I excused myself from the town square saying to my party that I had to go back to my inn for something I had forgotten (which was the lie). I never expressed what my covert action was because I thought I would have been given a chance to reposition myself before the fight broke out. Instead, after my GM had finished explaining the next actions leading up to the goblin attack, he told me I was at the inn on the other side of town.

Is this normal? Did I just goof? How frequently should I expect to be given chances to react? If I find that the GM misunderstood my intention (or I never expressed my intent *cough* *cough*), what is the best way to correct this or politely interrupt?

Thanks again!

Hi All!

A few friends and I have picked up Pathfinder and we are all learning how to play together. The game flow is currently slow because we forget what our bonuses are, how to calculate DC, etc and so forth. We're all newbs and everything is pretty slow moving.

Our GM is getting frustrated because he wants the pace of the game to pick up. We all agree that combat is where most of our time is spent. However, I've also noticed something else interesting but problematic.

Right before goblins attacked during a town festival, my fellow adventurers and I were wandering around town. I knew something wasn't right and since my character is naturally distrusting I made up a lie to get away from my fellow adventurers and tried to shrink into the shadows.

The problem arises in that I roleplayed my way out of the town center, and before I knew it, the GM had me placed on the complete opposite side of town when the fight broke out. The fight began with a thunderstone and I rushed back to the fight but completely missed out on XP.

This is idiosyncratic to how I think the rest of the roleplaying experience is going to be (at least at the beginning).

Can someone more experienced help me understand how the flow of roleplaying should interact with the logistics of the game? How do I express my wishes to the GM but roleplay accordingly in front of my fellow adventurers? Should the GM be asking more questions/giving more pauses for us to act/roleplay? Should I just trust that my fellow adventurers understand the difference between my intent with the GM and what they understand as a PC and just speak up?

I'm new! Help!

P.S. Thanks all in advance

Thanks all! Wow. Just so many great tips.

I know that saving throws are great and therefore a Bard could really help this team. Having ranged physical attack would be great too. So Hawktitan's suggestion of a Bard specializing in archery would be a good choice. I also forgot that Bards get magic! Totally going to make one soon. I've been more interested in the Arcane Duelist build in the past.

My questions is: aren't Bards better for physical allies than magic users? I swear I've read that somewhere.

Oh, your basically core only, so Treantmonks guide is great for you. I also recommend the caster centric one, but use the animal companion instead of the domain. I disagree with treantmonk there and you'll could use another body, really.

Great! I think I'll probably go with that advice as my character. The Druid provides the battlefield control I was looking for that I felt the other Divine Casters didn't provide. Oracles and Clerics seem better as support/debuffers than controllers.

I do see the benefit of a ranged physical attacker like one that Broken Zenith suggests. If I were to go with a physical ranged attacker, anyone have any recommendations? I've already heard about the Ranger from Captain K. but I still need some convincing on that one. Can anyone suggest a different physical ranged character? I'm looking for ones that contribute to a team, are fun, and more complex than just lock an' load.

Thanks all!

Druids are very complicated for a new party.

Have you considered a Ranger?

A 'Switch-hitter' Ranger can go front-line with the Paladin or be artillery with the Sorcerer while the animal does melee. A Ranger also has a great range of skills which neither the Sorcerer nor Paladin has.

Paladins and Sorcerers are two of the most fun classes, it is a good idea your friends chose them. However, they are both weak on skills and you don't need another Cha class.

Druid, Ranger, Alchemist or possibly Witch are your best bets. Druid and Witch are very complicated for new players. Bomb-throwing Alchemist or archer Ranger are less complex. Importantly, neither is at all dull to play. In all my years playing, nobody has regretted playing a Ranger.

Hrm. Not sure if I'm sold on Ranger. An archer build appeals to me. An animal companion sounds great. But just sitting back and shooting doesn't seem that challenging to me. Can you explain this choice a little more?

Also, I'm not adverse to more complex classes. So far the druid appeals to me. Going off of a Treanmonk Guide for Druids, I'm leaning more towards a heavy casting Druid for the better battlefield control.

However, Captain K.'s advice of a ranger has me considering a Fighter/Wiz into Arcane Archer build.

So many options! Can anyone make sense of this all??? Haha

Wow! Great advice!

SteelDraco:

I was considering an alchemist for a quick second. The Mr. Hyde build was appealing but with the only resources for it being the CRB and the APG, I felt like there wasn't a lot to help him out. Any good resources you would recommend for the Alchemist besides Ogre's guide?

Under A Bleeding Sun:

I'd consider a Druid. A summoner as well. One of the reasons why I was drawn to the Mr. Hyde build were the multiple natural attacks. I've heard a Synthesist is pretty good at this, but alas, I don't have access to that Archetype. More advice on these is more than welcomed!

Any other suggestions? How do you guys feel about a Bones Oracle Necromancer?

Thanks as always!

Hi all,

This is my first Pathfinder game, or any table top RPG (unless you count Hero Quest back in the 90's). I usually get bored with games because of how repetitive they can be. However, I've been doing a lot of research just to learn the game and I can't believe how varied this game can be. Super excited.

I'll be running a campaign with only two other PC's. No need to tell me this isn't advised - it's all we can muster up. The two other players are completely new as well and the GM says he's going to go 'easy' on us. The GM is new too so this should be a learning experience for everyone.

The advice I need is what class to pick. I know. I know. Just pick a class that sounds fun to me. Great answer, but hard for me to know what will be fun since I've never played before. Here's a little background info to aid in your advice:

1. The two other PC's will be running a Paladin and a Sorcerer. Most likely the sorcerer will make all the wrong decisions at the beginning levels and will grab lackluster damaging spells instead of helpful battlefield controlling Orisons (I know this because I played a practice dungeon with him already). The Paladin will most likely just be a meat tank.

2. We are limited to the CRB and the APG

3. To fill in the holes of the team I figure that we will need either someone to control the battlefield, someone who can sneak and scout, or someone who does a lot of damage.

4. I was interested in multiclassing with a Rogue and another class, but I realized that a lot of the damage a Rogue can deal is with Sneak Attack, and that if you don't keep up your levels in Rogue, it tends to fall off.

5. The builds I've been considering are a Bones Oracle Necromancer and the Mist Assassin. However, I'm moving away from the Mist Assassin since because of point #4. The Bones Oracle seems fun, but I'm not sure if my attention span can be held with the Cleric Spell list.

6. I'm not only looking for Optimized builds, and I'm not only looking for fun builds. I want to have the best of both. Feeling like I'm contributing to the team is important to me.

With all that said, I'm really open minded. I look forward to hearing from y'all and I want to thank you guys/gals in advance.

Thanks!

How do you have bAB 6 at rogue lv 6? Aren't they 3/4th class? I don't think they have Bab 6 until lv 8.

You found me out. I goofed and meant to use level 8 instead of 6. Thanks for catching that.

1. With Quick Draw, you can throw up to your BAB with daggers, plus the extra one from TWF. So you are correct that it would be 3 (4 if you got ITWF).

2. You wouldn't be able to get DEX to damage with a thrown weapon, so far as I'm aware. You're correct that weapon finesse only adds to your attack roll, which doesn't help you since that already happens when making a ranged attack, anyway.
3. There is an ability, Adaptive, that can be added to bows. That changes the STR modifier on a bow to match yours (or you can lower it if you'd like). It only costs $1,000, so it's a great one to get since it doesn't count as an enchantment-equivalent bonus.
4. Generally speaking, Archery >. That being said, play the build you want to play. If you like the idea of throwing, then stick with throwing.

Thanks for the clarification fretgod99. I agree on point #4. My intent with that question was to foresee any unforeseeable problems with either weapon. I'm starting to see that my throwing dagger build is a bit of a switch hitter and that is starting to require more feats than I was hoping to spend on it. I'm now starting to consider using a bow.

Another reason why I don't think I can carry out my throwing dagger build is that my GM is only allowing CRB and the APG. So that means no agile enchantments and no blinkback belts.

From everything that I've read, throwing weapon builds really don't get much love and I'm starting to see why. I'll have to talk to my GM about maybe allowing a few enchantments or items from outside of the two rulebooks. Wish me luck!