A world where you had higher caster levels, but only access to level 1 spells and metas would be an interesting kind of campaign. Probably have to give arcane casters at least 3/4 bab, however.
==Aelryinth
Nah... I would guess decent chunk of the spells, even at first level, are ranged touch. If we lower Widen and Quicken spell by one, I'd suggest a few more feats... and possibly a feature that gives an improved half save, like an improved reflex for thinking faster for evokers/conjurers/illusionists or an improved fortitude for resisting their own effects for transmuters/necromancers/abjurers... You'd just about require a lot of the missing metamagic feats from 3.5 like chain spell (to sort of sub in for the lack of the higher level communal buffs).
I miss searing spell.
Then again, if this were the case, I'd probably love the stuffing out of a color spray oracle.
Why not just a conjuration(teleportation) wizard with vanish/invisibility?
Sneak through the kings keep, use shift to get past locked doors that you can't pick. Cast invis, shift through the kings door, poison in his sleep, shift out.
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There's high magic and then there's high magic. What I mean by this is you have worlds with a high level of magical use e.g the Eberron setting where its ubiquitious and common. The average person travels to work on the elemental powered horseless carriage through a teleportation circle etc. You also have worlds with high magical potential e.g. discworld where a sorcerer pours magical power into the world and can create their own private dimensions (which most of them eventually do as the world can't contain their power dropping it back to its normal level of magical energy).
Thing is the two aren't necessarily linked and you can have a world with pathfinder lvl magic (9th level spells) but most of the world only knows of them in tales of the dark mage Meznabonia who was eventually opposed by the light of dawn and with all his powers bound and barred eventually killed by the noble sacrifice of elite army who brought him down with 90% casualties (black company stories, seriously the scariest part of that is here's a mage so powerful even with his powers suppressed by an anti-magic field almost takes out an elite army of soldiers and he's not the biggest bad out there).
So you have the magic of the world capping out at 6/10/whatever and when you walk into a metropolis you might discover the king has a 7th level caster (if your going that way) but there are immensely powerful 20th level casters sealed or hidden away in remote corners of the world and the source of great tales of hope of fear.
To use the modern world as an example everyone knows magic isn't real and if some girl comes up and tells you she used to be a man but an evil witch turned her into a girl because she was using and tossing aside women would you believe her? If all the evidence birth certificates, school photos, drivers license said she'd always been a girl what about then? When the witch in question who happens to be one of 600 magic users world wide shows up to say sorry but I did warn her not to tell anyone, here's your new cat enjoy and the girl vanishes along with all the evidence and her best friend looks at you strangely for asking about someone who never existed what then? You can have a world with low levels of magic commonly in existence but high levels of magical potential.
Of course if you are playing in a low magic campaign with magic users being hunted and no twit like merlin in that tv series you'll probably wind up dead at the hand of one of them sooner or later.
Hiding mundane evidence from mundane medieval era investigative tactics is childishly simple.Believe it or not, criminals were frequently caught during the Middle Ages.
People were frequently accused and punished for crimes. Don't mistake that for accurate justice. The law enforcement of the era was far less "careful investigation and intelligence gathering", and far more "who's suspicious or foreign?". Don't forget that if you received any kind of trial, it was by ordeal, or combat, not by jury. Evidence was superfluous to the process.
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People were frequently accused and punished for crimes. Don't mistake that for accurate justice. The law enforcement of the era was far less "careful investigation and intelligence gathering", and far more "who's suspicious or foreign?". Don't forget that if you received any kind of trial, it was by ordeal, or combat, not by jury. Evidence was superfluous to the process.
Hiding mundane evidence from mundane medieval era investigative tactics is childishly simple.Believe it or not, criminals were frequently caught during the Middle Ages.
To be fair a lot of what they did was considered evidence at the time and in a world with magic that's real, known and accepted like pathfinder that probably is a part of their criminal system. Additionally there's medival style settings with "modern" police methods discworld, dragons gate, one i can't remember the name of but involves a kings investigator in medieval england.
I see this a lot; Someone wants advice on or is describing their house rules for a low magic campaign. In Pathfinder this is a daunting task and there is a ton of different advice on how to go about this, from not leveling past 6th level to banning all full casters. But my question is "Why?"
Basically if you are a person that desires low magic campaign, why do you want this? Especially in a magic-heavy system like Pathfinder?
To clarify I'm not saying "If you like low magic so much get your butt in a different system." I'm trying to understand why there are a lot of attempts at low magic. Is it an innate storytelling desire? Is magic just complicated and overpowered? Are you trying to mimic a book or movie's setting and heavy magic disrupts it? Are you tired of all caster parties?
I may be late to the thread but... I can answer why. Why go with low magic? Simple; to tell the stories that are impossible with a high magic setting. Survival against the elements or mother nature, murder mysteries, crime dramas, or any other sort of tale that can be solved by casting one spell. Some people miss that part of fantasy and want it back. So they take their favorite fantasy system and tweek it till it can allow such stories.
People were frequently accused and punished for crimes. Don't mistake that for accurate justice. The law enforcement of the era was far less "careful investigation and intelligence gathering", and far more "who's suspicious or foreign?". Don't forget that if you received any kind of trial, it was by ordeal, or combat, not by jury. Evidence was superfluous to the process.
Hiding mundane evidence from mundane medieval era investigative tactics is childishly simple.Believe it or not, criminals were frequently caught during the Middle Ages.
While that's certainly true with things like witch hunts, that's not really the case with general law enforcement. It'd be more accurate to say that laws were enforced locally, on a village to village scale. Formalized concepts of due process, and protection from the state didn't really exist, but that's mostly because the concept of "the state" as an impartial government bound by laws and not a paternal/cooperative relationship with subjects didn't exist either.
Of course, Pathfinder assumes late middle ages/early renaissance which would be different. Banks, Humanism, Machiavelli and all that.
…one i can't remember the name of but involves a kings investigator in medieval england.
Sounds like Lord Darcy, from Randall Garrett.
My own version of "low magic" is similar to Lakeside's, in the sense that I like magic to be rare, not nerfed or capped in any profound way. Similarly, I think magic items should be wondrous and hard-earned things, and find the "magic mart" or "build" style of gaming that is the Pathfinder default banal and boring.
If one really takes seriously the default status of magic in Golarion, it would lead very quickly to a magic-as-technology steampunk (or even more high-tech) sort of game in which the machines are driven by arcane rather than chemical forces. I don't want to play in that sort of world, so I don't.
Why Pathfinder? Because I don't have the energy to teach a bunch of people Rolemaster.
I'm playing in a Rolemaster campaign/world, as the "new player" (having joined a mere half year ago). Campaign's been going on for 26 years, I believe. It's refreshingly old-school - a lot of the vibe I had been missing since 1st edition AD&D. And yes, magic is rare, because it's futile to try and solve mundane problems with it - too slow, too awkward, and darn weak at lower levels compared to just using skills. Exactly how we like it.
Mind, this isn't stopping anyone from actually playing magic-users, since we play the classes we want to RP, not the tricks we want to optimize.
It's telling how the gaming landscape has changed - we've had a few people show interest in joining us, but only one person under the age of 35 has done more than nibble, and that person had never roleplayed before.
Most of the classic fantasy literature worlds are low magic compared with D&D. Middle Earth and Game of Thrones come to mind.
David Eddings has a handful of spell casters, even Magician by Feist spell casters are rare and cannot easily do what D&D wizards pull off. Wheel of Time magic is rare.
Interesting example, since Feist's books are based on a homebrew D&D campaign he played in! It's most noteworthy in his first two books - the way character abilities are described is very reminiscent of people describing their PCs, and in book 2 I recall a few very cliche cleric spells being cast - you could just about count their duration in rounds as the story unfolded.
I am prepping a low magic campaign right now. The particular setting calls for it.
Why low magic with Pathfinder? Because it's hard to find people in my area who will play in another system. I would just as soon run it as a Savage Worlds campaign, but I would have trouble locating players if I did.
Low-magic does much better if you implement a wound system rather than using hit points - both to allow players to better gauge their characters current status and to provide a combat system that feels more gritty. I've adapted the wound and healing rules from a modern game (Twilight:2013) for use because it allows character actions that suffer penalties from damage but allow them to better gauge when to get the heck out of dodge. Effects ranging from a -1 on all actions, to -2,...
Sounds like Hârnmaster. In fact, I was looking through the players' guide a few days ago, and they make the comment that players (and their characters) should be a lot more leery of getting into combat unless they absolutely have to, because the combat system is so dangerous. :-)
It's interesting since those vehemently arguing against low magic are very keen on twisting the words and misrepresenting what others are saying.
"enhancing the Heal skill to // offset lack of magical healing"
becomes
"No magical healing".
That isn't really twisting words so much as a potential misunderstanding. "Lack" means either deficiency or complete absence, and it isn't really possible to deduce which was intended from the context.
That isn't really twisting words so much as a potential misunderstanding. "Lack" means either deficiency or complete absence, and it isn't really possible to deduce which was intended from the context.
That might be theoretically possible, but it's a continuous trend and I find it highly unlikely. I could probably find you a half-dozen examples from this thread alone.
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Others, upstream in this thread, like rules-tweaking to get the low magic ideas to work out. To me, that's a lot of work for very little gain. As I said before, after that much alteration/adaptation of 3.PF you've basically backed your way into learning an already existing system.
The bolded text is only an assumption on your part. If the few low magic games I've run only tweaking the rules a little with total gain - a game using tweaked PF rules worked effectively, only requiring further tweaking as parties leveled. How is a working and enjoyable game equal very little gain?
As to the second part of the aboved quote, I don't need to learn of an already existing system (which I have no idea actually exists), I'm perfectly happy using PF as a toolbox to make any game I want to play. There's is nothing wrong with adapting PF at any level to play whatever variants we want to. Nobody is keeping score at whether my version of variant PF is close enough for anybody other than the table where such a game is played.
Why does it matter whether its true PF or not - who cares?
That isn't really twisting words so much as a potential misunderstanding.That might be theoretically possible, but it's a continuous trend and I find it highly unlikely. I could probably find you a half-dozen examples from this thread alone.
Probably, but aside from a bit of strawmanning I haven't seen anything too malicious here. This thread is riddled with misunderstandings throughout, due to the usual confusion over people using "low magic" as a blanket term for "no full casters" or "no magic shops" or "some spells nerfed" or "no casters of any kind"...
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I wouldn't participate in organized play, PFS or otherwise at any time, not one of my posts ever have anything to do with PFS.
I only care that I create a game that's fun for my players, and I do so using the PF rule system, but there's never a need to use all of the rules, nor replace some rules with others as long as it achieves the level of fun required for all participants.
Why high magic?
For the same reason I imagine some would answer the inverse, because they think it's fun.
I'm one of these "low magic" lovers and the reason is simple:
High Magic setting create a lot of logical problems, example:
- there shouldn't be any desert or drought in a high magic setting (create water, censer of endless water)
- no Hunger (create food & drink)
- Castle would be invalid ("This walls should help us against a dragon/Wizard?")
Also it removes a lot of survival aspects from the game (no "we need food, water", a level 1 cleric can support a whole city with fresh, clean water) and also the classic fantasy battles ("what can an Army of level 1-3 warriors (normal army according to the books) do against a Dragon, Wizard, Level 10 Barbarian)?
Also in higher level games you have to really construct obstacles specific designed for/against the players to make them real obstacles, otherwise one of the caster (which are most classes in PF) have some spell to negate the obstacles without any thinking, trouble etc.
And for me this makes the world unbelievable.
Why I play PF? Because it's like a old pair of shoes, it has it's flaws and holes, but it fits and your used to it. ;)
How big is the army?
If you're talking 100 guys, that's a guaranteed 5d6+15 or so damage every round, if they are archers, as long as the barbarian is in range. If he's charging a pike line, he's going to eat at least one pike set to receive his charge.
A dragon will have the same problem. The archers spread out, shoot 100 arrows/rd as long as its in range, the nat 20's land for d6+3 or something, and it dies.
With a Bardsong over a large enough area, 1000 archers could conceivably deal 50d6+300 dmg/rd to any single opponent within range of a bow. All you basically have to do is deal with DR.
Now, spellcasters, you need your own. The game completely ignores the need for fixed defenses against magical attack. Things like Spell Engines and Wards from 1e should be standard issue for any serious fortification, and spells to stop flying things and teleportation standard as well.
Once you put them in, things become much more believable. Even something as simple as a Continuous Faerie Fire adjusted to only glow when exposed to active magic will seriously shut down any infiltrator trying to use spells or magic items.
=+Aelryinth
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Here's some suggestions for static defenses I like to use in my homebrew.
Interdiction: This is a combination of Proof against Teleportation and Forbiddance. It completely blocks the Veil in a radius of 10'/caster level, and can be made permanent. The Spell can be cast at any level from 1 to 9, it adds that level to the level of the spell required to enter. So, an Interdiction cast from a 3rd level slot would force you to blow an 8th level slot to teleport into or out of it, or a 5th level slot to blink. Creatures that can't Raise their magic, such as most spell like abilities, simply can't get around the defense.
By Casting the Interdiction from a higher and higher level slot, even the most minor bendings of the Veil become impossible to accomplish.
This tactic shuts down incorporeality, etherealness, and dimensional hijinks, as well as the entire Summoning school.
Stillflight Field: This AoE comes from a combination of Earth and Air magic, and completely neutralizes magical flight. I.e. if you aren't a natural creature that can fly in our world, you can't fly. This prohibition extends to even creatures that are not material or are shapechanged...they are treated as their original forms.
So Dragons, Ghosts, Elementals and other flying monsters hit the edge of the Stillflight Field and fall out of the sky, as do polymorphed mages and t~@#s using Flying magic and effects.
Devoted SPell Engines: This 8th level spell from 1E stopped all spellcasting and activating of magic within it's 10'/level radius, while actually making it easier for spellcasters to sleep and regain spells. It could be destroyed by hitting it with any magical item, but this is easily gotten around by simply sealing it behind a stone wall.
In addition, simply make up a magic item attuned to this particular Engine that makes amulets that harmonize with the field it produces and render you immune to its spells. Every morning, the existing amulets disintegrate, and 8 new ones reform on the item for dispersal, so they cannot be stolen by enemies.
You now have spell supremacy within your stronghold.
Wardfields: This is like Forbiddance, without the Clerical requirement. The default should be Protection from Evil within the area of effect, along with Protection from Scrying. This neutralizes charm magic on your people, stops magical control across its bounds, prevents extraplanar creatures from entering, and means you cannot be spied upon by magic.
Continuous Faerie Fire: This spell could be set to an area, limning everything within the area of effect...especially the invisible, or those hiding in shadows. In particular, it changed color when touching magical items, spells, or effects.
Adjust the spell to only show non-attuned magic, including magical beings, and infiltration becomes nigh impossible.
Elemental Stone: Every hardpoint should have a devoted major Earth Elemental whose job is simply to shut down burrowers, collapse tunnels, and combat things trying to earthglide in the vicinity of the building. Powering a wardfield that forces earthgliders and burrowers to the surface as if the surrounding earth was made of solid iron would be a priority.
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This kind of thing should be STANDARD in any campaign that wants to have secure hardpoints, i.e. castles. I submit that they should all be basically cast spells in Ritual, with components typical of making a spell Permanent, and with caster level/spell level easily upgradeable to reinforce defenses over time.
Seriously, can you picture any king's court where divination magic was allowed to work on his courtiers, and enchantment magic allowed to seize the thoughts of a realm's rulers? It makes no sense whatsoever.
==Aelryinth
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Seriously, can you picture any king's court where divination magic was allowed to work on his courtiers, and enchantment magic allowed to seize the thoughts of a realm's rulers? It makes no sense whatsoever.
People may not agree with your specific fixes (aka -everyone's a critic) but the philosophy driving your fixes should have been built into the game once it started to transcend the dungeon - i.e. 1st edition.
2nd edition - the system should have started to address this - again, I can chalk some of that up to the year and the state of RPG gaming.3rd ed and on - it's unforgivable.
Seriously, can you picture any king's court where divination magic was allowed to work on his courtiers, and enchantment magic allowed to seize the thoughts of a realm's rulers? It makes no sense whatsoever.
Uh, every fantasy story since like ever? Where the hell do you think we get all these evil Viziers from?
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Seriously, can you picture any king's court where divination magic was allowed to work on his courtiers, and enchantment magic allowed to seize the thoughts of a realm's rulers? It makes no sense whatsoever.Uh, every fantasy story since like ever? Where the hell do you think we get all these evil Viziers from?
If the Vizer made efforts to secretly remove those wards or operate within them (such as making them himself for the King) then that works.
Walking into the court and saying "ZAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP, I take over you mind now!" is..lame.
Seriously, can you picture any king's court where divination magic was allowed to work on his courtiers, and enchantment magic allowed to seize the thoughts of a realm's rulers? It makes no sense whatsoever.Uh, every fantasy story since like ever? Where the hell do you think we get all these evil Viziers from?
If the Vizer made efforts to secretly remove those wards or operate within them (such as making them himself for the King) then that works.
Walking into the court and saying "ZAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP, I take over you mind now!" is..lame.
Isn't that exactly how the Imperious Curse works? I can't remember the name of the series it's from but I heard it was popular. (Obviously this wouldn't be good a game prospective.)
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It's from Harry Potter. :)
And don't get me started on the screwy defensive magic of the Potterverse.
The tools are there in 3e+...they're just made too expensive or too limited to use. It's like offense trumps defense, as long as it's magical.
==Aelryinth
Somewhat related question; Say that a Wizard can cast as many spells as he wants per day, however the wizard can only prepare one spell at a time. Preparing a spell takes a full round action that provokes. What should that wizard's spell progression look like to remain balanced?
Part of the logic behind this question is that magic is allowed to get very powerful because it is a limited resource but what if that limit were diminished? what should be the most powerful spell if spells were not limited to slots?
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Somewhat related question; Say that a Wizard can cast as many spells as he wants per day, however the wizard can only prepare one spell at a time. Preparing a spell takes a full round action that provokes. What should that wizard's spell progression look like to remain balanced?
Part of the logic behind this question is that magic is allowed to get very powerful because it is a limited resource but what if that limit were diminished? what should be the most powerful spell if spells were not limited to slots?
You'd have to have extremely limited spells known.
This is basically taking the sorcerer's shtick, being able to cast the same spell multiple times, and blowing it wide open with unlimited casting.
If the wizard has access to any spell he likes, and he can cast it an unlimited number of times a day, this will play absolute hell on game balance.
1) There will be no lower level spells. why have monster summoning II when you can cast M Summon V all day along? Why have levitate when you can spam overland fly for the party?
2) the power of long term buffs will be magnified. Since the wizard never runs out of slots, stopping every ten minutes to prepare and cast Shield is a wise tactical decision. Renewing buffs on the rest of the party on a regular basis is basically the same as having them up all the time. Expect steroid monsters all the time.
3) the usefulness of wands and scrolls will drop away without severe limits on spells known. Since the wizard never runs out of spell power, he will never need these items for spells he knows.
4) Non spellcasters will be completely overshadowed by the wizards ability to spam powerful spells, particularly Summons. Other casting classes will be thrown into the shadow of the unlimited casting power of the wizard.
Note that while they gave unlimited casting to the 3e Warlock, they severely curtailed and controlled what 'spells' he had access to. Since his spells were always intrinsicially less powerful then casters of the same level, he never overshadowed them even if he could outlast them.
==Aelryinth
I'm creating my version of Weapons of Legacy as part of the upcoming Kaidan setting of Japanese horror GM's guide, that use an honor mechanic and event triggers at each leveling of power of the item, called Ancestral Relics. There is no expenditure in GP, HP, nor XP, though it is level based. Plus these are more than just weapons, but armor and wondrous items each with 10 levels of power/features.
So I liked the concept, just not the delivery. So there'll be a 3PP version for PF to come.
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Isn't that exactly how the Imperious Curse works? I can't remember the name of the series it's from but I heard it was popular. (Obviously this wouldn't be good a game prospective.)
Please don't bring up Harry Potter when it comes to world-building except as to how it can go horribly wrong.
Don't get me wrong - I like the books - JK Rowling is the queen of pacing & seamless background. But her world-building is HORRIBLE. (Super easy example - much of the issues the world faces have to do with people either having gotten out of prison when guilty, or in prison when innocent. This is in a world where a perfectly reliable magical truth serum exists! Gah!)
Somewhat related question; Say that a Wizard can cast as many spells as he wants per day, however the wizard can only prepare one spell at a time. Preparing a spell takes a full round action that provokes. What should that wizard's spell progression look like to remain balanced?
Part of the logic behind this question is that magic is allowed to get very powerful because it is a limited resource but what if that limit were diminished? what should be the most powerful spell if spells were not limited to slots?
Well, level 1 magic missile infinite pretty much handles any/all combat. Unless they have a shield spell up. So everyone would have shield + magic missile. Even summons would get just silly. Overally, I would look more at the 3.5 warlock class for "infinite spell like" stuff instead of trying to morph wizards into it.
Somewhat related question; Say that a Wizard can cast as many spells as he wants per day, however the wizard can only prepare one spell at a time. Preparing a spell takes a full round action that provokes. What should that wizard's spell progression look like to remain balanced?
Part of the logic behind this question is that magic is allowed to get very powerful because it is a limited resource but what if that limit were diminished? what should be the most powerful spell if spells were not limited to slots?
Definitely can't include 9th level spells (spamming Time Stop for infinite free time is bad and you should feel bad) and realistically probably shouldn't include the majority of 7th and 8th level spells. So if you turned the wizard into a 3/4 caster they could still have fun with spells and probably be fine, but anything more than that and you would destroy the game. This is of course assuming that you have to spend a round to prepare after each spell cast and not just when swapping out what spell to use. If you meant the latter, then the wizard would need an entirely different mechanic like hexes or invocations instead of spells to not be broken.
@ Aelryinth:
Some of your "solutions" aren't from PF at all others are so costly that no kingdom could buy it.
Regarding the Barbarian vs. Army:
Do you ever tried to hit a level 10 Figther/Barbarian/Paladin etc. with a level 3 character? no chance due to the high AC.
Which means 100 arrows fly.. no hit (even with a lucky shot 5 out of 100 will hit and deal.. no damage due to Magic items/DR/Potions etc).