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I don't really understand how you could persecute PF magic users without implementing PF magic users.
At some point you are going to piss off a sorcerer that will just bind an army of demons under the request of "Do what you do" while pointing vaguely at society.
These GM's tend not to think about the broader implications because it would destroy their world. The evil wizard would likely control the entire planet who hates magic within a month (Heck within a few days).I don't really understand how you could persecute PF magic users without implementing PF magic users.
At some point you are going to piss off a sorcerer that will just bind an army of demons under the request of "Do what you do" while pointing vaguely at society.
In such a setting, spellcasters would be unlikely to be above a few levels in magical power, and classes would limited in availability. Alternatively, only certain types of magic are "okay", so high level divine casters might be hunting down arcane casters, or high level wizards are killing off sorcerers. It's doable in Pathfinder if the GM thinks about the setting.
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I don't really understand how you could persecute PF magic users without implementing PF magic users.
At some point you are going to piss off a sorcerer that will just bind an army of demons under the request of "Do what you do" while pointing vaguely at society.
Which is why practitioners are hunted and killed before they become powerful enough to do that. The very threat of that is often what prompts such persecution.
Seriously, a world full of mundanes overthrowing a single nigh-omnipotent superhuman isn't even a rare occurrence in fiction. It's cliché. Sometimes it's through some magical MacGuffin, but just as often it's through ingenuity, sacrifice, or just sheer numbers.
It also mechanically is impossible if the PCs can't traverse the planes and the sorc can. Also most casters being crafty could overthrow a government peacefully in a month or less. Lower levels just mean its less overt.I don't really understand how you could persecute PF magic users without implementing PF magic users.
At some point you are going to piss off a sorcerer that will just bind an army of demons under the request of "Do what you do" while pointing vaguely at society.
Which is why practitioners are hunted and killed before they become powerful enough to do that. The very threat of that is often what prompts such persecution.
Seriously, a world full of mundanes overthrowing a single nigh-omnipotent superhuman isn't even a rare occurrence in fiction. It's cliché. Sometimes it's through some magical MacGuffin, but just as often it's through ingenuity, sacrifice, or just sheer numbers.
It is most certainly mechanically possible. The sorcerer is going to be on this plane eventually. Alternately, the sorcerer must exert some sort of influence on this plane or there's no threat. Such influence can often be turned back on the sorcerer. If the sorcerer sends a bunch of demons, for example, the mundanes might offer a better deal. Besides, once the sorcerer starts plane-hopping, all bets are off--other planes may not be as "low-magic" as the world in question, and a sorcerer casually tossing wish-powered doom from a distant plane may attract the attention of aeons, inevitables, or competing magical powers.
A 1st level sorcerer doesn't have that ability.A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.
Problem B: If there are no casters >level 5 a single CR 11 monster will likely wipe out the kingdom. A purple worm becomes a kingdom ending creature.
I'm fairly confident that a world full of mundanes could eventually recover from the threat of a first-level sorcerer armed with charm person.
As for the CR 11 monster, a group of mid-level fighters can easily tackle a purple worm. Heck, sufficient numbers of commoners can do it--it doesn't even have damage reduction.
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If you hunted down all magic users, then yes high level ones would be rare.
But all it takes is one mid-high level caster to completely dismantle that system.
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If you hunted down all magic users, then yes high level ones would be rare.
But all it takes is one mid-high level caster to completely dismantle that system.
We're going in circles again. : P
Interestingly my published Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) which is not low magic, but PF standard, still controlls its arcane casters. All wizards of Kaidan are trained and licensed by the Ministry of Onmyodo which is a branch of the imperial government (based on ancient Japan actually having a Ministry of Onmyodo) and all unlicensed arcane casters (including sorcerers) are outlaws to the state and hunted down. Of course Kaidan is an oppressive military dictatorship under the Shogun with a strictly defined social caste system, and all senior government officials being powerful undead, including the Shogun (who is a powerful wizard himself.) Controlling and hunting down casters doesn't have to be a low magic thing.
However, if a GM wants to restrict magic by social means, a better way would be to restrict it to the nobility. The ruling oligarchy is made up of powerful spellcasters, and they are unwilling to share their power with the lower classes. Using any kind of magic is a serious crime for anybody who isn't a noble, and teaching magic to someone who isn't a noble is treason.
Good thing sorcerers don't need a teacher to progress in their magic. Its innate.
It also mechanically is impossible if the PCs can't traverse the planes and the sorc can. Also most casters being crafty could overthrow a government peacefully in a month or less. Lower levels just mean its less overt.I don't really understand how you could persecute PF magic users without implementing PF magic users.
At some point you are going to piss off a sorcerer that will just bind an army of demons under the request of "Do what you do" while pointing vaguely at society.
Which is why practitioners are hunted and killed before they become powerful enough to do that. The very threat of that is often what prompts such persecution.
Seriously, a world full of mundanes overthrowing a single nigh-omnipotent superhuman isn't even a rare occurrence in fiction. It's cliché. Sometimes it's through some magical MacGuffin, but just as often it's through ingenuity, sacrifice, or just sheer numbers.
It is most certainly mechanically possible. The sorcerer is going to be on this plane eventually. Alternately, the sorcerer must exert some sort of influence on this plane or there's no threat. Such influence can often be turned back on the sorcerer. If the sorcerer sends a bunch of demons, for example, the mundanes might offer a better deal. Besides, once the sorcerer starts plane-hopping, all bets are off--other planes may not be as "low-magic" as the world in question, and a sorcerer casually tossing wish-powered doom from a distant plane may attract the attention of aeons, inevitables, or competing magical powers.
That sounds almost like Krull!
They have to find the fortress that never appears in the same place, and only have 24 hours to figure out where it will be and then attack it before it disappears again!
However, if a GM wants to restrict magic by social means, a better way would be to restrict it to the nobility. The ruling oligarchy is made up of powerful spellcasters, and they are unwilling to share their power with the lower classes. Using any kind of magic is a serious crime for anybody who isn't a noble, and teaching magic to someone who isn't a noble is treason.
This is something close to what I would expect to happen if magic actually existed. In a world of magic, those who have the power will eventually rise to the top and form not only a ruling caste, but also probably a religion to justify and reinforce their power.
In the case of wizards, the knowledge which underpins their power would be jealously guarded, and opened only to a select and thoroughly vetted few. Noble sorcerers could be expected to preserve the purity of their bloodlines with an incestuous fervor. In both cases, much as the modern state enjoys and enforces a monopoly of violence within its borders, I would expect the "magical state" to monopolize magic in the same way, and for the same reasons. There might be licenses issued for local hedge wizards, healers and bureaucrats (a little detect thoughts can go a long way) if the ruling class deemed such individuals useful for the pacification of the masses, but unlicensed/undocumented magical practice would almost certainly be punished, and uncontrolled magical documents treated as contraband.
In all likelihood, it would be disgusting, decadent and oppressive. People with a lot of power don't tend to play nicely with others.
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A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.
I don't think that spell does what you think it does.
Personally, I like having low-magic gameplay options because I often like designing my worlds, and some of them have rule of magic different from the custom on given in PF (and PF <> Golarion).
Physical reality have only one set of rules, with which we're all comfortable.
Almost any game system approximation of the physical reality is at least acceptable.
Magic not existing, we can imagine multiple mechanics behind it, and a single-flavor of it can't hope to catch all variations.
For example, among the worlds I've designed, I've one where magic is a byproduct of lifeforms, gods are more or less symbionts that draw magic from higher lifeforms in exchange for benefits, an outsider parasite godling have managed to banish gods from the world, conquests most of the world with the armies of its followers, and it's drawing all the free-flowing magic.
Only its follower still maintain "classic" magic powers, there're no other divine casters, and arcane casters need to use their own life force to cast, taking damage anytime they cast.
In another one, civilization is relatively high tech, '800 style, but magic instead of being a developed art, have just been rediscovered, and only the most basic form of it are known... but they're being studied and used scientifically and industrially.
On the other hand, there was a previous draconic civilization extinct from ages that were totally magic in the usual way: different powers are competing to conquer and explore the old ruins in distant continents to re-discover pieces of superior arcane powers in a Great Game-like competition... in this world there're only arcane casters, and the only spells widely known are the core manual ones from level 0 to 3. Casters can use upper level slots to cast lower level spell with metamagic (all available), but that's all. Other spells are found only while adventuring, or are made available as plot-devices. On the other hand, magic items are quite common and mass-produced, and there are common versions of wands and staves usable by non-magic-users too...
In a third, the nature of magic is different, in that it all descend by dealing with otherworldly beings. As a consequence, magic is even more powerful, but must be used with care and after great consideration, because each use have a steep price and consequences. Moreover, tend to be slow, to be used not so much directly in battle, apart for the occasional well studied devastating strike, but in preparing for battle, in dealing with the consequence of battles, and in out of battle situations.
In this world, instead of the standard daily spell allotment, spell-users have to bargain in advance for a bunch of spell levels that they can then use all at one or sparingly as they see fit... you can also deal for daily fixed usages and/or SLA or supernatural abilities, for the right price.
Other worlds I implemented using other more generic systems, designed from the start to leave creative freedom, like GURPS.
Still, PF d20 is nice, known by more people, so I also made some customizations to support different kind of gameplay...
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Blackmoor the setting has the trope that only wizards are responsible arcane casters, and sorcerers are dangerous lunatics consorting with powers they don't understand and are hunted down.
In counterpoint, sorcerers having 'noble' bloodlines and occupying the positions of power would be hugely threatened by the fact that ANYONE with a brain could become a wizard and mimic all their precious magic, and I can quite imagine the pogroms they'd initiate to keep their unique powers to themselves instead of some thieving wizard.
==Aelryinth
Blackmoor the setting has the trope that only wizards are responsible arcane casters, and sorcerers are dangerous lunatics consorting with powers they don't understand and are hunted down.
In counterpoint, sorcerers having 'noble' bloodlines and occupying the positions of power would be hugely threatened by the fact that ANYONE with a brain could become a wizard and mimic all their precious magic, and I can quite imagine the pogroms they'd initiate to keep their unique powers to themselves instead of some thieving wizard.
==Aelryinth
Good stuff.
Principalities of GLantri had their noble families who were all masters in different areas of magic known in no other country, and you had to be a wizard to be one of the ruling nobles.
That's BECMI, not 3E, so no sorcs, however.
==Aelryinth
For folks that have played E6 or whatever, where the game caps at 6th level and then you just gain HP/Feats from there, do you still have all the RAW rules for magic item purchase? Like, would it still feel like low magic if you were level 4 in an E6 style game but you enter a large city where there's a guy on every streetcorner hawking a +2 sword?
I don't do anything much different rules-wise for my game. I run a homebrew. I do however have a lot of disposables in loot drops or for sale, tons of settlements no larger than a Small Town and a real variety of mundane items, coins and art in loot piles.
One of my former players accused me of running a gritty, low-magic game. He was frustrated by this. I just kind of shrugged. I don't put out any restrictions or whatever and tell my players up front that I have the settlements I do. I also encourage them to make magic items telling them that I'm using the Downtime system from Ultimate Campaign to make things a little cheaper.
Finally I tend to run non-linear games. My players are free to wander far afield so if they want more cash they can find a loot-rich adventure site and pursue it at their liesure. If the players however don't take the initiative to use all the resources at their disposal that doesn't make it any higher or lower magic a game than if I ran in Golarion does it?
Anyway I just wondered if maybe I should be running E6 or something...
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For folks that have played E6 or whatever, where the game caps at 6th level and then you just gain HP/Feats from there, do you still have all the RAW rules for magic item purchase? Like, would it still feel like low magic if you were level 4 in an E6 style game but you enter a large city where there's a guy on every streetcorner hawking a +2 sword?
I think part my disagreement with you on that - is that most people don't want to RP shopping. I don't like real shopping much - why would I want to RP it when I don't even end the day with real stuff?
It's not that every street-corner has a merchant selling magic gear. It's abstract, just like losing 13hp of your character's 75hp from a mook with a greataxe doesn't mean that he actually chopped into you full strength with the axe head into your spleen up to the eye.
Buying magic items likely involves chasing down rumors of a weapon someone's great grandfather used when he went adventuring, talking to shady grave-robbers, talking up the mage's guild etc. It's just that it all generally happen off stage. And it's boring, so we just hand-wave all of that away.
And yes - I believe that E6 usually has standard WBL magic items etc, it just maxes out at 6.
When it comes to E6, there seems to be two general ways that people go.
1. Levels and magic item distribution remains normal; anyone that would be 6th+ level norally is 6th level. Magic items are as common as normal.
2. Levels and magic items are adjusted to have a distribution relative to the standard, so that 6th level characters and +2 swords are both rare occurencies.
I think this somewhat is affected to why one plays e6. If you play e6 prinarily because you like the gritty tactics and want to keep the "sweet spot" for longer, method 1 moght be the best. If you want a low-powered game (whether low fantasy, low magic or whatever), method 2 might be preferable.
Ive played in, aand enjoyed both, but they were very different games.
For folks that have played E6 or whatever, where the game caps at 6th level and then you just gain HP/Feats from there, do you still have all the RAW rules for magic item purchase? Like, would it still feel like low magic if you were level 4 in an E6 style game but you enter a large city where there's a guy on every streetcorner hawking a +2 sword?I think part my disagreement with you on that - is that most people don't want to RP shopping. I don't like real shopping much - why would I want to RP it when I don't even end the day with real stuff?
It's not that every street-corner has a merchant selling magic gear. It's abstract, just like losing 13hp of your character's 75hp from a mook with a greataxe doesn't mean that he actually chopped into you full strength with the axe head into your spleen up to the eye.
Buying magic items likely involves chasing down rumors of a weapon someone's great grandfather used when he went adventuring, talking to shady grave-robbers, talking up the mage's guild etc. It's just that it all generally happen off stage. And it's boring, so we just hand-wave all of that away.
I'll second this, as far as finding/buying magic items goes. A lot of people want to get item shopping done quickly so they can move on to other aspects of the game they find more interesting. An hour spent shopping for Bob's new +2 sword means an hour not spent on political intrigue, general roleplaying, punching monsters in the face, or whatever it is that's fun for that player.
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In one game i played the GM used "interactive lootung"; basically, when we found treasure, we as players could decide one item in the treasure (within certain limits). That was honestly great, the items were more memorable than with shopping yet it didnt feel like a magemart.
A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.I don't think that spell does what you think it does.
After using Charm on a royal attendant:
"Friend, I must share with you a grave secret. Our good king is under threat. An enemy hiding within his court will try to poison him at his next meal. It is essential that you hide this anti-toxin in his wine, in order to save his life. You must be discreet though, as the hidden enemy will surely try to stop you if they find out. We must not let the king die!"
Hand them a bottle of poison.
Edit: Then report the attendant for suspicious behaviour right after the meal, to insure that his attempts to implicate you will seem like desperate lies.
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A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.I don't think that spell does what you think it does.After using Charm on a royal attendant:
"Friend, I must share with you a grave secret. Our good king is under threat. An enemy hiding within his court will try to poison him at his next meal. It is essential that you hide this anti-toxin in his wine, in order to save his life. You must be discreet though, as the hidden enemy will surely try to stop you if they find out. We must not let the king die!"
Hand them a bottle of poison.Edit: Then report the attendant for suspicious behaviour right after the meal, to insure that his attempts to implicate you will seem like desperate lies.
Assuming that the king doesn't have food testers etc, no one spots the poison, you beat them on multiple charisma checks (take unknown potion from stranger/don't tell anyone of idea/don't tell king at the time/put it in goblet etc), the king has no magical defenses against poison in place, (adepts using detect poison is pretty freakin' easy) and frankly - in pathfinder poisons aren't really all that deadly anyway, and the ingested ones have minutes between effects - plenty of time for a cleric to cure him before he dies.
Not to mention - the few poisons which would have any chance of killing him are rather expensive.
A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.I don't think that spell does what you think it does.After using Charm on a royal attendant:
"Friend, I must share with you a grave secret. Our good king is under threat. An enemy hiding within his court will try to poison him at his next meal. It is essential that you hide this anti-toxin in his wine, in order to save his life. You must be discreet though, as the hidden enemy will surely try to stop you if they find out. We must not let the king die!"
Hand them a bottle of poison.Edit: Then report the attendant for suspicious behaviour right after the meal, to insure that his attempts to implicate you will seem like desperate lies.
Assuming that the king doesn't have food testers etc, no one spots the poison, you beat them on multiple charisma checks (take unknown potion from stranger/don't tell anyone of idea/don't tell king at the time/put it in goblet etc), the king has no magical defenses against poison in place, (adepts using detect poison is pretty freakin' easy) and frankly - in pathfinder poisons aren't really all that deadly anyway, and the ingested ones have minutes between effects - plenty of time for a cleric to cure him before he dies.
Not to mention - the few poisons which would have any chance of killing him are rather expensive.
You wouldn't use an immediate death poison anyway, you use one that takes time. The delay means you'll have time to report the attendant before it becomes apparent that something happened, but after it's too late to stop the attendant. A vial with powdered sores or infected fluid from a deadly disease would work as well. Besides, in a low magic world, the king won't have magical protections, and there aren't panacea clerics about.
Besides, why would you have to make opposed charisma checks to convince a royal attendant to save the king's life? It's not unknown fluid from a stranger, it's a life saving antidote from your good friend. (charmed, remember).
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That depends on your definition of "low magic". Its got to be g*% d+&n near no magic if the -king- doesnt have access to someone with cantrips. And again, poisons arent very dangerous in pathfinder, and neither are diseases, as long as you arent a first lwevel commoner with negative con.
A first level caster does have charm person which can easily kill the king cheaply and effectively with zero evidence left behind.I don't think that spell does what you think it does.After using Charm on a royal attendant:
"Friend, I must share with you a grave secret. Our good king is under threat. An enemy hiding within his court will try to poison him at his next meal. It is essential that you hide this anti-toxin in his wine, in order to save his life. You must be discreet though, as the hidden enemy will surely try to stop you if they find out. We must not let the king die!"
Hand them a bottle of poison.Edit: Then report the attendant for suspicious behaviour right after the meal, to insure that his attempts to implicate you will seem like desperate lies.
That's hardly "zero evidence left behind." Any competent investigator will check out the attendant's story, whether they believe it or not. The type of poison and the bottle it came in are both evidence as well. Plus, if you're using a slow-acting poison, the charm will probably wear off before the king dies. Is your lackey going to get scared and blab everything in time for the royal physician to find an antidote?
This plan also requires that you find somebody who has access to the king's food. And you would also need know a great deal about the internal workings of the court and the personalities of the people involved or your charmed lackey might get the idea to do something else, like hand the "antidote" to the royal physician, or to the king himself. It's not necessarily impossible, but it would be very difficult to pull off this plan.
It wouldn't matter if the attendant tells someone after the fact. You will have already reported them as suspicious/scheming.
"The attendant tried to convince me to participate in his treasonous plan, but of course I refused. He had some kind of bottle, so I came to notify the guard as soon as possible. I hope it isn't too late!" The attendant naming you after that would seem like retribution for your turning him in.I would say this plan has more chance of success than a professional assassin attempting to take the king out. It's a basic sleeper agent approach, using someone who has no motive and would not be suspected as the agent. The other nice thing about being low magic is that all of the easy mystery solving spells the royal guard would otherwise use are gone as well. Hiding mundane evidence from mundane medieval era investigative tactics is childishly simple.
You know, if anyone in a low magic world did have access to those spells, it would be the very rich King? Just an interesting factoid. Sorry, however much you might wish it to be, low level magic is not an automatic 'I win!!!' Button even in a low magic world.
In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king. In a low magic setting, those few with magic would be the rulers, not servants to them.
If it was a world where casters are hunted, as has been described, I was supporting just how much havok even the weakest one could still wreak, to indicate the implausible nature of such a setting remaining sustainable.
As much as you might wish it to be, low magic in general is not a "you lose" button.
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"The attendant tried to convince me to participate in his treasonous plan, but of course I refused. He had some kind of bottle, so I came to notify the guard as soon as possible. I hope it isn't too late!" The attendant naming you after that would seem like retribution for your turning him in.
Except, of course, that if the Charm spell hasn't worn off, a simple detect magic will show that the attendant has been the subject of an enchantment spell.
And of course that the king has much more reason to trust a trusted attendant than a random _mage_.Also, this assumes that the attendant would be willing to use this kind of subterfuge against their own liege even for their best friend, which is far from a guarantee. Even if they believe you on the antidote story, they might very well tell the king there's someone trying to poison them.
Also, this assumes that the king doesn't have a food tester.
Also, what poison are you going to use? Arsenic and wolfsbane are unlikely to kill anyone, kings sleep would be detected and aided far before any real harm could be done, so what's left is basically dark reaver powder... Which has a double save to cure and will on average deal 12 con damage if allowed to run it's course - though of course, that means that basically succeeding on a single save means it's unlikely they will die. And as soon as it's realized that the king has been poisoned, a healer will of course attend, which gives the king a +4 on all saves vs the poison.
Also, this assumes that the king's closest attendants haven't been trained to recognize the most relevant poisons. And since there's only a single poison that is reasonably able to kill the king, it's quite likely they have been trained to recognize dark reaver powder.
Like, yes, it might theoretically work if all the stars align, but so will a crossbow bolt to the head. And that method allows you to have much more control over what happens, compared to this where you basically hope for the best with a high risk of failing.
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You know, if anyone in a low magic world did have access to those spells, it would be the very rich King? Just an interesting factoid. Sorry, however much you might wish it to be, low level magic is not an automatic 'I win!!!' Button even in a low magic world.In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king. In a low magic setting, those few with magic would be the rulers, not servants to them.
If it was a world where casters are hunted, as has been described, I was supporting just how much havok even the weakest one could still wreak, to indicate the implausible nature of such a setting remaining sustainable.
As much as you might wish it to be, low magic in general is not a "you lose" button.
There's a counterpoint to this. The rich and powerful will simply buy the services of the magical. If the magical refuse to be bought, the non-magical will rise up against them and kill them out of fear for the very powers they are flaunting. After all, the outnumber the magical hundreds to one, and unlike PF, the magical in an E6 world can't slaughter armies. Saving throws also don't have the huge pass/fail range that they do in high level campaigns, either, meaning lower level characters still have decent chances of making saves.
And even in a low magic campaign, if anybody is going to have an attendant who can use magical spells, it's going to be the local ruler. he's where the money, power and influence is, after all.
===Aelryinth
Low magic =/= low level, or helpless commoners.
It can be, but it is a wrong assumption to say that it has to be.
Even in a E6 game, you could conceive a world were town militia average at level 2-3 with veterans and captains level 4-5. Only the truly Epic characters get to level 6 and beyond (by which I mean get extra goodies past level 6)
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In an e6 world, you can only control 12 hd of Animated Dead. It's hardly a powerful spell unless you get ahold of a big monster's corpse...in which case the army will likely turn out to deal with you and your undead horror.
==Aelryinth
There's one particular scene in Game of Thrones that exemplifies and answer to "Why low magic?" for me:
When Beric Donarrion gets resurrected after his trial by combat with the Hound. Game of Thones has almost no magic, and the merciless, impartial world of the setting makes you really dismissive of the whole Lord of Lights religion and Donarrion's religious mumblings, but after the battle, when he gets up again, and then shows off all of the lethal wounds he's recovered from with the thanks of his new god, it actually kind of scary.
In high-fantasy settings, you can never get that "oh s#$&" feeling fro supernatural / magical occurances. They become non-issues. Of course the priest resurrected him, all clerics can do that. An undying warrior that rises again after every lost battle to continue to fight stops being a terrifying enemy and starts being a guys with an awesome magic item that the fighter wants to add to his collection
That's not to say high fantasy is bad, or that it can't be scary. I probably play in high fantasy settings more often than not, and love it when I do, but there are moments that can't be had in it because magic isn't special or surprising. It does something different.
tl;dr, the way I like to summarize it is "it scratches a different itch" for me, which is why I like playing lots of different systems
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All these claims that low magic worlds aren't sustainable because a single mage would rule the world with 1st level spells clearly doesn't read very much, because there are a lot of such worlds in fiction that have been written about at length?
A world where you had higher caster levels, but only access to level 1 spells and metas would be an interesting kind of campaign. Probably have to give arcane casters at least 3/4 bab, however.
==Aelryinth
@Scythia and Undone: Are commoners/townsfolk or "low-level functionaries of the king" different in an E6/low-magic setting than they are in high-level/high-magic setting?
Aren't they all pretty much Level 1-2 NPC's?
So, why are you suddenly so much more powerful with your Charm Person or Animate Dead spell than you would normally be?
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A world where you had higher caster levels, but only access to level 1 spells and metas would be an interesting kind of campaign. Probably have to give arcane casters at least 3/4 bab, however.
==Aelryinth
Extended Command Undead (the spell) can significantly increase that. Mind you the number of classes that have both Command Undead and Animate Dead under level 6 is limited.