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There's an interesting topic going on at MMORPG.com thought you guys might want to take a look at it and drop your 2 cents on that forum.
Also if you haven't yet hyped our game please do so here Hype Link we are starting to sink down in ranking we are currently ranked 5th, but we are tied with the 6th,7th with a score of 8.19 so a few votes will solidify us in staying on top of things.
Goblin Squad Member
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I read the thread and the headache I now have reinforces why I don't visit MMORPG.com. I sincerely hope that Goblinworks' plan to increase population slowly and organically comes to fruition, as it's the best chance we have to make sure players are invested in the game rather than just trying out the latest thing they can get their hands on.
I now agree more strongly with "subscription-only in Early Enrollment" for the same reason; Day One isn't going to put the game into everyone's wheel-house. Somehow--but I've no idea how--people should be encouraged to wait until things they insist the game have are available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I took the liberty to intervene so they are aware of your concerted efforts to counteract any criticism. :)
Kuddos
You neglected to mention the caveat that you are angry and bitter person, but I think it came across just fine in the post anyway.
(edit: I'm not sure, though, that you did your position any favours by referring to "fanboys" on a site that exists purely to compare and discuss which games people like better. )
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Goblin Squad Member
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I invested in a sandbox game without grinding. I end up with a game in which you are limited by XP over time like EvE, which is fine, but you are ALSO limited by grinding of mobs like any Theme Park.
I'm still not sure where you see grinding. Ryan took a new character to Fighter Role level 8, and spent four hours on "grinding":
Since I reached all the Achievement goals in 4 hours, I think its pretty reasonable to say that at least for this build, the amount of time you would spend pursuing Achievements compared to the amount of time you could spend doing self-directed things is pretty trivial.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Audoucet wants to park characters on an account, let them accumulate XP for a long time, then rapidly train them to be uber as needed. He doesn't want to spend any time at all engaging with the content in the game except for killing other players (apparently).
It looks like an investment strategy to me, not a gaming strategy.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You neglected to mention the caveat that you are angry and bitter person, but I think it came across just fine in the post anyway.
If you want, you can tell them, it would give me the occasion to tell them that you never actually played any MMO and don't know what you are talking about. I didn't because I didn't want to go with personal attacks. :)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Audoucet wants to park characters on an account, let them accumulate XP for a long time, then rapidly train them to be uber as needed. He doesn't want to spend any time at all engaging with the content in the game except for killing other players (apparently).
It looks like an investment strategy to me, not a gaming strategy.
You'll get to criticise when your game works better than EvE. :)
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The only person that should have posted a response was Ryan Dancey, and he did, and it was accurate and appropriate.
Everybody else who posts just obscures that message, and helps fill the well of schadenfreude that people like Audoucet need in order to deal with their frustration.
Like was said earlier, the game will speak for itself, warts and all, till it no longer has warts. When it can't it's probably better for someone of a more official nature to "respond" since anybody who is deadset on countering you will just paint you as a fanboy and ignore you anyway. The more frustrated and desperate you seem, the more it feeds the schadenfreude.
Take a deep breath. Step back from the keyboard.
And remember that arguing with other people over the internet is pointless.
Concentrate on helping new players, giving feedback to GoblinWorks, and coming up with constructive solutions to game issues. That will do far more towards making PFO the game we want it to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Audoucet wants to park characters on an account, let them accumulate XP for a long time, then rapidly train them to be uber as needed. He doesn't want to spend any time at all engaging with the content in the game except for killing other players (apparently).
It looks like an investment strategy to me, not a gaming strategy.
To be fair, I'm not sure that's what he wants. I do however know he doesn't want killing 250 goblins to be a gate. It's healthy if all of us look at exactly what the other person is trying to say, not what we think the other person wants; even if their delivery is horrendous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be fair, I'm not sure that's what he wants. I do however know he doesn't want killing 250 goblins to be a gate. It's healthy if all of us look at exactly what the other person is trying to say, not what we think the other person wants; even if their delivery is horrendous.Audoucet wants to park characters on an account, let them accumulate XP for a long time, then rapidly train them to be uber as needed. He doesn't want to spend any time at all engaging with the content in the game except for killing other players (apparently).
It looks like an investment strategy to me, not a gaming strategy.
I think Ryan's characterization of Audoucet's desires was pretty objectively accurate.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm still not sure where you see grinding. Ryan took a new character to Fighter Role level 8, and spent four hours on "grinding":
And what is the point of Ryan's last response here, since we can do it anyway then ?
You should realise that you can't say "we need grinding to limit because progression" AND "books don't worry, it won't really limit you, you can do it in a few hours !".
You understand that it's stupid ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I took the liberty to intervene so they are aware of your concerted efforts to counteract any criticism. :)
Kuddos
Could you do me a favor and get the hell away? It is quite obvious that you are no longer interested in engaging in any sort of positive fashion, so spare us.
Thanks.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Could you do me a favor and get the hell away? It is quite obvious that you are no longer interested in engaging in any sort of positive fashion, so spare us.
Thanks.
No, sorry, I don't let scammers get away so easily. If PFO fails because of its lies, well, the next game in that category will do better.
For any one who doesn't follow -
Basically the idea is, you get a bunch of character accounts, let them accumulate tons of experience over time, meanwhile you don't even need to play the game.
As soon as they get to a tipping point, you log in and train all the feats/skills, etc. and level up to be maxed out, then sell the account through a third-party intermediary and make more real-life money back than you put in holding the character accounts.
From what I've read from GoblinWorks, the achievement gating mechanism is in place to prevent this kind of behavior - if I understand correctly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think Ryan's characterization of Audoucet's desires was pretty objectively accurate.To be fair, I'm not sure that's what he wants. I do however know he doesn't want killing 250 goblins to be a gate. It's healthy if all of us look at exactly what the other person is trying to say, not what we think the other person wants; even if their delivery is horrendous.Audoucet wants to park characters on an account, let them accumulate XP for a long time, then rapidly train them to be uber as needed. He doesn't want to spend any time at all engaging with the content in the game except for killing other players (apparently).
It looks like an investment strategy to me, not a gaming strategy.
I don't, though I agree Audoucet comes off quite crass. There are many people that have a problem with the achievement system and attribute "gating." And, as it has been discussed in other threads, people (including yours truly) find them to not mirror a sandbox atmosphere.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to do engage with the game, I just don't want engage in such a simple, monotonous fashion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm completely with GW on the reasons for having achievement and ability score gating. I'm even completely with them on the theories behind the systems they are using to gate. Both systems are in first iterations, we know that.
The achievements are currently very basic and are waiting on future content to get more interesting.
The ability scores need feedback and tweaking on the #'s.
Both of these issues are expected and GW has been EXTREMELY responsive to crowdforging in both cases. What more can we want at this stage of the game, really?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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For any one who doesn't follow -
Basically the idea is, you get a bunch of character accounts, let them accumulate tons of experience over time, meanwhile you don't even need to play the game.
As soon as they get to a tipping point, you log in and train all the feats/skills, etc. and level up to be maxed out, then sell the account through a third-party intermediary and make more real-life money back than you put in holding the character accounts.
From what I've read from GoblinWorks, the achievement gating mechanism is in place to prevent this kind of behavior - if I understand correctly.
Mmhmmh, and answer me this : if you can get 1 month XP worth of achievement in 4 hours, I can get 2 years and a half in 120 hours. how exactly does it prevent me to do it anyway ? Er, I just have to XP 4 hours/month. If I want to get money, it isn't a big effort.
And by the way, if I wanted to make money, I wouldn't have freely handed my DT over to Xeen. And I would have sold my 5 EvE accounts. Which I didn't.
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What more can we want at this stage of the game, really?
For normal people? Probably not much.
But people who drop more than a thousand dollars on vaporware or kickstarters aren't "normal" in my opinion.
I think they come in two types, those who are insanely rabid fans, or those who think they can increase their money.
If you are in the second camp, and discover that the game develops in a way that prevents your ultimate goal of increasing your monetary investment, I'd imagine you would go nuts.
If you are in the first camp, I'd have a hard time believing that one would become completely put off by a few feature areas not aligning exactly to what you envisioned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Saiph, the question of whether the achievement gates count as a "grind", and the other question of whether or not they qualify as sandboxy, are totally unrelated to the question of what Audoucet has very clearly stated he wants to do.
" Something needs to require playing the game for advancement"
I don't think it does.
There's other stuff in that post where he's talking about sitting on an account for 5 years, never playing it, and then reselling it, but it's not clear if that's his intention or just a hypothetical.
However, it's quite clear his stated opinion is that you shouldn't have to interact with the game in order to advance.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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You don't even level the characters.
Without any gates, a character with absolutely nothing training and a huge bank of XP will be extremely valuable. It gives the purchaser instant access to a totally customized character exactly configured to the buyer's immediate needs.
That's why he wants no gates.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Read Audoucet's post for yourself.
The level of slander and bitterness is overwhelming. His actions/words over the last month are clear with his stance on PFO. The less people respond to his post, the better for everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm completely with GW on the reasons for having achievement and ability score gating. I'm even completely with them on the theories behind the systems they are using to gate. Both systems are in first iterations, we know that.
The achievements are currently very basic and are waiting on future content to get more interesting.
The ability scores need feedback and tweaking on the #'s.
Both of these issues are expected and GW has been EXTREMELY responsive to crowdforging in both cases. What more can we want at this stage of the game, really?
Nothing, I was just trying to characterize Audoucet correctly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What more can we want at this stage of the game, really?For normal people? Probably not much.
But people who drop more than a thousand dollars on vaporware or kickstarters aren't "normal" in my opinion.
I think they come in two types, those who are insanely rabid fans, or those who think they can increase their money.
If you are in the second camp, and discover that the game develops in a way that prevents your ultimate goal of increasing your monetary investment, I'd imagine you would go nuts.
If you are in the first camp, I'd have a hard time believing that one would become completely put off by a few feature areas not aligning exactly to what you envisioned.
Yeah pretty much. And then you scream about suing the Vikings kicker for missing the FG. I've reached out to Audocet in PM's, I still have no idea why a few hours of grinding would kill someone who was actually planning on playing the game.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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However, it's quite clear his stated opinion is that you shouldn't have to interact with the game in order to advance.
You know, I played WoW for 10 years, and I still play SWTOR.
You know the difference with PFO ?
I don't pay for XP OVER TIME.
If I ask McDonald for a Coke, and they give me an Orangina, I would complain. It doesn't mean I don't like Orangina, it means I paid for a COKE.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You don't even level the characters.
Without any gates, a character with absolutely nothing training and a huge bank of XP will be extremely valuable. It gives the purchaser instant access to a totally customized character exactly configured to the buyer's immediate needs.
That's why he wants no gates.
Lol, because you think that in 2.5 years, if I want to buy a full OP char, I won't be able to ?
Give me EvE's system without any queue, and I will be fine.
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You didn't pay for coke. You paid for a softdrink designer to come up with a new softdrink that is slated to have a bunch of different qualities and tastes.
That fact that you still can't decipher the difference between the financial involvement of a kickstarter and the actual purchasing of a completed product is mind-boggling. I assume it is mindful ignorance to help you deal with the poor decision of dropping $1000+ on a video game kickstarter.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You didn't pay for coke. You paid for a softdrink designer to come up with a new softdrink that is slated to have a bunch of different qualities and tastes.
That fact that you still can't decipher the difference between the financial involvement of a kickstarter and the actual purchasing of a completed product is mind-boggling. I assume it is mindful ignorance to help you deal with the poor decision of dropping $1000+ on a video game kickstarter.
100$ EE access is not kickstarter, thank you very much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You neglected to mention the caveat that you are angry and bitter person, but I think it came across just fine in the post anyway.If you want, you can tell them, it would give me the occasion to tell them that you never actually played any MMO and don't know what you are talking about. I didn't because I didn't want to go with personal attacks. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't EVE's system gated by making ISK (playing the game in some fashion or another) to buy training books? Or buying PLEX with RMT to sell for ISK.
The costs are generally trivial enough that as long as you play the game a bit (more of the higher end and specialized areas) you can afford most of the books you'll need...which is similar to the intent of the achievement point system in PFO.
(Forgive me if I'm wrong since I haven't played in a few months, new expansions might have changed things)
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Goblin Squad Member
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100$ EE access is not kickstarter, thank you very much.You didn't pay for coke. You paid for a softdrink designer to come up with a new softdrink that is slated to have a bunch of different qualities and tastes.
That fact that you still can't decipher the difference between the financial involvement of a kickstarter and the actual purchasing of a completed product is mind-boggling. I assume it is mindful ignorance to help you deal with the poor decision of dropping $1000+ on a video game kickstarter.
Are you saying your 1600.00 investment was 16 post-kickstarter EE packs?
I wouldn't say it's a gate if you can just buy ISK to purchase said training books with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The gate is still there, but you have to expend real money thus adding to the monetary cost of maintaining the account. Even then PLEX is particularly built to cut the head off ISK farmers and keep things as legitimate as they can while feeding into the economy directly. In terms of account value you either play it or pump extra money into it, arguably they are 'equal' options, time is money and all that. Interestingly since someone buys the PLEX for ISK the perceived amount of money that goes to the devs per active account is the same across all active accounts, but can be imbalanced when considering just a single account.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Are you saying your 1600.00 investment was 16 post-kickstarter EE packs?
No, I am saying that I have : 500$ from the KS, 100$ for an EE access, and 900 to get the alpha update. And a few addons, I don't remember which ones because the GW interface sucks. And a DT I bought to someone who decided that he wouldn't play the game.
The 100$ EE is indeed a sold product.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The gate is still there, but you have to expend real money thus adding to the monetary cost of maintaining the account. Even then PLEX is particularly built to cut the head off ISK farmers and keep things as legitimate as they can while feeding into the economy directly. In terms of account value you either play it or pump extra money into it, arguably they are 'equal' options, time is money and all that. Interestingly since someone buys the PLEX for ISK the perceived amount of money that goes to the devs per active account is the same across all active accounts, but can be imbalanced when considering just a single account.
Except that you can get ISK in hundreds of manners. If I don't want to kill Serpentis lvl 1 missions, I don't have to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you saying your 1600.00 investment was 16 post-kickstarter EE packs?No, I am saying that I have : 500$ from the KS, 100$ for an EE access, and 900 to get the alpha update. And a few addons, I don't remember which ones because the GW interface sucks. And a DT I bought to someone who decided that he wouldn't play the game.
The 100$ EE is indeed a sold product.
Then if you haven't logged it in and used it, you should probably ask for a refund if you feel it isn't as described.