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So trying to make a second entry for a Gestalt WotR and was working on making a Paladin / Inquisitor. But I am very new with Gestalt and so far every game I have started never launched. So I was wondering if you could look at the character below and give me some advice.
I want to go the front line route. Took Rich Parents, as a sort of Church funded champion / hunter of evil. So his gear is nice but I don't mind switching things out to make it work better.
Level: 1 (Gestalt Rules)
Abilities: 25 point buy on a 1-1 basis. No abilities higher than 18 (before racial modifiers) or lower than 10 (after racial modifiers)
Alignment: Good is preferred, Neutral is accepted. No backstabbing the party.
XP: Rather than giving our XP, I'll let you know when you should level up. This makes it easier to give proper rewards, because honestly, you're mythic gestalts and I will totally be increasing the difficulty of encounters to compensate. This ensures you level at the right pace. XD
Races: Core, along with Aasimar/Catfolk/Kitsune/Tiefling/Elemental-blooded
Classes: Any Paizo.
HP: Max per hit-dice
Skills: 1 bonus skill point at each level, spent on Craft, Profession, or Perform. This represents your character's talents outside of combat and adventuring.
Traits: 2 (one must be a Campaign Trait), 3 if you take a Drawback
Starting Gold: 150 GP
Backstory: Yes, please. This is the main way I separate characters, and will be a major factor in my final decision. Note that this adventure focuses around the Crusade against the Worldwound - characters who can be inspiring leaders (as opposed to, say, self-loathing loners) are more suitable for this campaign, though they can certainly be the type to grow into such a role (or support someone else instead). Just keep the themes of the campaign in mind.
Sourcebooks: All Paizo, 1001 Spells, and Deep Magic. No Psionics (not quite the flavor I'm looking for - and Mythic Psionics from Mythic Mania isn't out yet). Other 3PP available on request.
Archon-blooded aasimar (lawbringers) inquisitor of Iomedae 1/paladin 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 84)
LG Medium outsider (native)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +1 dexterity)
hp 15 (1d10+5)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +7
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee mwk greatsword +6 (2d6+6/19-20) or
. . mwk longsword +6 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged longbow +2 (1d8/×3)
Special Attacks judgment 1/day, smite evil 1/day (+4 attack and AC, +1 damage)
Domain Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 6/day—touch of law
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 0th; concentration +4)
. . At will—detect evil
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 1st (2/day)—bless, divine favor
. . 0 (at will)—create water, guidance, light, resistance
. . Domain Archon (Good) Law (Archon (law) subdomain)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 18
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 16
Feats Power Attack
Traits chosen of iomedae, exposed to awfulness, rich parents
Skills Climb +5, Diplomacy +8, Heal +7, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +7, Sense Motive +10, Stealth +2, Swim +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ monster lore +3, stern gaze +1
Combat Gear thistle arrows (50); Other Gear mwk breastplate, longbow, mwk greatsword, mwk longsword, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, wooden holy symbol (Iomedae), holy text, manacles, mess kit, pot, hemp rope (50 ft.), spell component pouch, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 101 gp, 1 sp, 1 cp
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Special Abilities
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-> Exchanged for the ability to cast Continual flame+1 to Hit & Damage vs. Evil Outsiders +1 racial bonus on attack and damage rolls against evil outsiders.
Cleric Domain (Archon)
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Exposed to Awfulness (1/day) Vs Death/Incapacitation by demon: Reroll saving throw as free action, keep 2nd result.
Judgment (1/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Monster Lore +3 (Ex) +3 to Knowledge checks when identifying the weaknessess of creatures.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +1 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Touch of Law (6/day) (Sp) Treat all d20 rolls as 11 for 1 rd.
If Inquisitor is sub par I am up for suggestion because I haven't found very many recent ones to try out.
I have heard that:
Pal/Sor (Dragon Disciple?)
Pal/Warpriest (Still too new to decide if that is right or not)
Pal/Monk (Zen Archer)
Pal/Cleric
are decent options. :/
I am still looking through archetypes to find ones that would work well together with the above character.
Thanks very much for your help. :)
If you're interested in the dragon disciple option, you might also check out the Eldrich Scion Magus archetype
A couple of things to keep in mind with gestalt characters are what stats are required for the class and how they synergize with each other. Two classes that are similar to each other may not offer enough diversity to make a good gestalt. Also keep in mind weapon and armor restrictions. You want to be able to use all the abilities of both classes at the same time. If you are mixing a character that uses heavy armor with a character that has spell failure you need to figure out how you are dealing with armor.
The paladin inquisitor is probably not a really good fit because you need every stat. Paladins need good STR, CHA, CON, and you don’t want to dump DEX, this leaves INT, and WIS as your dump stats. Inquisitors usually require good STR, WIS, CON, and you don’t dump INT or DEX, this leaves only CHA as a dump stat. Also both classes use a lot of swift actions for their abilities so you will probably not be able to have them all going at once.
The draconic sorcerer gets mage armor as a spell so you don’t need to wear armor, but your AC will probably be lower than normal for a paladin. The bonus natural armor will help but does not kick in till higher level. Dragon Disciple will work well with this but you will lose your 9th level spells. Also your 6th – 8th level spells are essentially the same spell. Since you cannot trade out your bloodline spells this puts you at a slight disadvantage. Overall this is still a good choice but be aware of the disadvantages of the build.
An oracle will work very well with the paladin. As a divine spell caster you don’t have to worry about spell failure. Either battle or life works well for your mystery. Battle will increase your combat abilities considerably, but life will allow you to act as the party healer without spending much in the way of spells. Life also gives you most of what you need for condition removal and breadth of life to bring people back from the dead. If you want to go all-out offensive battle is the best mystery for that, if your party will has no other healing than life may be a good choice.
The Battle mystery has a lot to offer but many of the revelations start out fairly weak but level up pretty well as you get higher level. Weapon mastery eventually grants you three feats for a single revelation but until 7th level you only get weapon focus. Maneuver Master will be useless to you until 7th level as you are already have full BAB from paladin. War Sight is actually pretty good because DEX will probably be a lower priority so getting to roll multiple times for initiative is pretty good. Skill at arms does nothing for your character since he already gets it from the paladin side.
Since elemental races are allowed go for a Suli. The bonus to STR and CHA is where you want your stats. The elemental resistance is nice and if traits are allowed pick up unscathed for an additional 2 points of resistance. While 7 points of resistance may not seem like a lot your saves are going to be good so you will probably make most saves which means it will actually be more useful than it looks. The Suli are not humanoid so are not affected by spells targeting humanoids like charm person. The downside is that they are also not affected by useful spells targeting humanoids like enlarge person.
Pick up fey foundling as your first level feat. The bonus applies to lay on hands as well so it will be a huge boost for healing
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@Mysterious Stranger Gotcha! Inquisiator just seemed really alwesome Thematically but doesn't synergize well which is sad but at least I have other options. That was a lot of helpful info. Thank you very much! :D
I have one more question though. Would Rogue be a good or bad option for Paladin?
I can see where It would have good saves, evasion, sneak attack, full bab, rogue talents.
However I didn't know if Sneak Attack would scale well with a paladin in a campaign where our enemies will most likely be of Abyssal origin.
Trying to get the hang of this lol. But all I have is my pad and PDF's my books are at home. >.<;
I would suggest a CHA based spell caster is going to be your best bet. The only thing a rogue really brings is skill points and a few rogue talents. Most rogue talents are not that good so even though you get a bunch of them most are not that good. What it really comes down to is what you want out of your character.
If you want to be a combat heavy character the oracle of battle is probably the best. If you want good combat with decent spell the dragon disciple is decent. If you want to be the sneaky batman type consider an archeologist bard. Sneak attack is often difficult to set up. It works best in a large party so you have multiple flank buddies. I assume since you are doing a gestalt campaign you don’t have a large party.
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Sneak Attack is kind of terrible and takes way too long to set up in combat, most of the time. And most of the Rogue class features can be picked up through other classes that aren't so... meh.
Good Paladin gestalts include Oracle, Sorcerer, Bard/Skald, and pretty much anybody else who gets benefits from having good Charisma.
Yeah - a Sorc/Paladin that grabs Enduring Armor can be really nice. I ran on for quite a while - And ohhh... the save bonus you get.
Since you mentioned you are new at Gestalting - some general advice.
First - look for stat overlap. Mysterious Stranger gave a good example of this for your Inquisitor Paladin. Finding 2 classes that have different abilities, but use the same stat is nice.
Second - Make sure the two classes don't step on each others toes. If both make extensive use of Swift actions, or one is all about full attack, and the second is standard action (and they could be used in conjunction) that doesn't work so well.
Third - look for classes that shore up each others weaknesses. One class is great at defense, but has no offense, then the other would be useful on offense. Of a skill monkey and a combat specialist. Always something to do.
Fourth - look to reinforce Strengths - can one ability from one class really enhance something on the other? This is where the fun for Getstalting comes in for me, looking for those odd combinations. Finding one class that has passive abilities while the other does active, or that what they do doesn't overlap helps too.
A character I've played for a while. She is a Monk/Sorcerer, Empyreal. That means Sorcerer's primary stat is Wisdom, which is one of the main ones for the monk. Sorcerers are weak in combat - a Monk, while not at the Paladin level for combat, is good for defense and movement. Spells can buff, and Arcane Strike can be useful. You can use spells on enemies and move further than they can and keep it up, and if they get to you, you have a decent AC, and some combat options. She shows the basic ideas for gestalting effectively. No she is not Mixmaxed, but works well in the group, and always has something she can do fairly effectively; even without magic.
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@Lord Mhoram Originally I was thinking of using monk/druid BTU I didn't realize they errata-ed the Monk weapons. Namely Brass Knuckles. which made it really difficult to use in a campaign where everything has DR. =/
I appreciate the advice very much and I am taking notes!
I admit I tend to think too much about character/RP, instead of synergy, and I am trying to change gears. RP is nice but being the weak link is terrible. Had a druid with 8 str, was new at it and didn't realize how terrible an idea that was at the time. =/ Two years of scraping buy there lol.
Knowing what other people in the party are going to play can make a big difference. How big the party is will also be important. In a large party chances are there are multiple characters able to cover any one role. In a smaller party that is not always the case. Also knowing what the other players are planning to play will also make it easier to fit in. If everyone is playing a stealth based character then it would make sense to make sure your character is not completely incompetent at stealth. This way you don’t end up being left behind when the party wants to try and sneak up on something. This is not to say that all the characters need to be able to do everything, but rather if your group is going for a tactic make sure you can use this tactic.
From what you I have seen you are looking at three concepts. First would be the paladin sorcerer combo. This works actually quite well as the paladin supplies all the combat and you can use the sorcerer for blasting and utility. This gives you a lot of things that you can do based on what you are encountering. If you are going up against the BBEG you cast a few buff spells and wade in. If you are going up against numerous lesser foes you can use a couple of area effect spells to soften them up and then wade in. You will also have some utility spells but for the most part this character focuses on combat especially if you go into the dragon disciple.
The paladin oracle will probably end up being the primary healer of the group. If there are other able to cover some healing going for the battle mystery is going to make you a very competent combatant. You will probably still want to pick up some condition removal spells but these are going to come out of your selection of spells known. Lesser restoration, restoration and heal are probably the minimum you want. You can retrain lesser restoration when you get restoration. The battle mystery has a lot of things coming online as you level up so your GM may not realize how powerful you are until you actually gain the levels.
You mentioned adding rogue instead of oracle or sorcerer for versatility. A better solution would be to go archeologist bard. Since bards can cast in light armor without spell failure you can use medium mithral armor and still cast without having to deal with spell failure. Your saves are going to be ridiculously good and get evasion at 6th level. Most direct damage spells are reflex which you will probably make so will ignore huge amounts of damage.
The archeologist bard will give you plenty of skill points, and bardic lore means you will only need to put one point into each knowledge to have a decent roll. Focus your spells on buff and utility spells and you will be incredibly versatile. You get enough rogue talents that you can pick up the good ones without too much trouble. Bards get access to heroism as a second level spell and you should get this as early as you can. Heroism stacks with archeologist luck and last a long time. Between the two you only need a point or two in a skill to have a really good roll when you need it.
No reason you can't RP with synergies. The style of magic for the sorc were classic "ninja finger magic" and seen as ultra Ch'i. Really great flavor for a monk.
To be honest most of the great RP hooks I've come up with for characters is looking at a mechanic and thinking "how could I make a character sing with that thing.. how would it work".
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Godlike advice... :D
You sir have a mastery of the system I can only hope to achieve some day. xD
Paladin Sorceror is sounding way more tempting then I imagined. Never done a dragon disciple build but it does scream epic for a Paladin to eventually transform into a dragon. :D
I am curious though about the new Arcanist. A lot of it synergises with paladin Cha wise. I am still reading it through but I didn't know if it was worth exploring further.
Mysterious Stranger Party isn't selected yet, I am building a second entry and just wanted to make something a bit different from everyone one else. :)
Being Versatile as you said is something I like to do. I am very good at being Utility role. :)
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No reason you can't RP with synergies. The style of magic for the sorc were classic "ninja finger magic" and seen as ultra Ch'i. Really great flavor for a monk.
To be honest most of the great RP hooks I've come up with for characters is looking at a mechanic and thinking "how could I make a character sing with that thing.. how would it work".
I try and do the same thing, lately time hasn't been on my side so its been difficult to focus completely on it. I try but I end up missing important things for the build. :S
Your advice has been very helpful as well. :D
I suggest going oracle with the deaf curse and any combat mystery. Most of the time you will be swinging a big sword as a paladin so its good to take the metal or battle mysteries as you get a lot of side benefits.
Also keep in mind that a paladin wearing armor incurs arcane spell failure if he casts arcane spells.
I think if you want to go for an offensive arcane caster than the sorcerer is probably the strongest. While a lot of the arcanist abilities are keyed off CHA his spell casting is actually INT based. Dragon disciple also gives you some nice bonuses to your stats. +4 STR and +7 natural armor are hard to pass up.
The idea of the paladin filling the role of the “Thief” of the party is not something you see all that often. Even if he is not stealing the idea of a paladin sneaking around and being the party scout is kind of strange. Gives pretty good edge when it comes to getting away with stuff. No one is going to believe the paladin in a breastplate is able to sneak around.
As to the role playing vs. optimization a very wise person one said that optimization happens before the game, while roleplaying is something you do at the table. You can role-play an optimized character just as easily as you can an optimized character. I actually find it easier to role-play an optimized character than a weak character. When I game I want to play a hero not Joe average. Even in real life we optimize. How many NBA players are short, how many scientists have a low IQ?
The other problem with mixing paladin and rogue is the honor code. Lying and cheating are explicitly prohibited and the "and so forth" is damning. Stealth is deception. Ambushes are deception. Feinting is deception. Stabbing someone in the back while they're distracted by your ally is cheating. Pretty much everything that a rogue is good at is arguably forbidden to paladins.
If your GM is going to run the code RAW do not play a paladin unless you're going to run a straight forward meathead. Sorcerer or bard can pull that off but rogue cannot. (Meathead here meaning as imaginative as a hamsteak but not necessarily stupid. Carrot Ironfounderson is a good example.)
The paladin’s code requires the paladin to act with honor and gives some examples. Stealth and deception are part of tactic. The Art of War has entire sections on the proper use of deception. Nowhere does the paladin’s code say they are not able to use tactics. Not all paladins are knights in shining armor. True many are, but that is not the only path for a paladin to follow.
So my attempt at Paladin / Sorcerer (With the possibility of going Dragon Disciple. ^.^)
Chose Crossblooded and Wildblooded for Sorcerer side, still unsure of the paladin side of things if/what would be a good archetype..
Draconic Bloodline and Elemental.
Based hsis stats around on being a blaster and able to front-line as needed.
Just got to get his spells picked out and what not. Any advice on the build is appreciated. :)
@Mysterious Stranger & Atarlost
I can see Atarlost point in some ways but Mysterious Stranger is thinking the same way I am. Paladin / Rogue is more like an infiltrator, using stealth to mov in against the enemy, something many would expect. Stealth isn't deception or lying, it doesn't trade or g against the paladin code. Sneak attacking an unwary opponent would...
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
The Ten Lawful Good Commandments
A list of Ten Commandments for a lawful good religion may look like this:
1. You shall not lie.
2. You shall not harm the innocent.
3. You shall not murder.
4. You shall help the needy.
5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes goodness.
6. You shall follow the law.
7. You shall not betray others.
8. You shall bring criminals and evil-doers to justice.
9. You shall not steal.
10. You shall seek unlimited good for others and unlimited order in society.
Ten Lawful Good Sins
Likewise, a lawful good religion may list the following as sins. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.
1. Failing to show respect to lawful good churches, governments, and/or beings.
2. Failing to speak out against corruption, sin, greed, pride, etc.
3. Being motivated by pride, avarice, gluttony, or some other sinful impulse.
4. Theft, robbery, or willful vandalism.
5. Causing harm to a pious or virtuous being.
6. Failing to assist or aid good beings when in need.
7. Blasphemous or heretical acts.
8. Allowing a crime or major act of evil to go unpunished.
9. The murder of an innocent.
10. Aiding the servants of Chaos and Evil.
The Lawful Good Adventurer
The following two lists detail common actions undertaken during "adventuring" that are considered honorable and dishonorable for the lawful good alignment. An honorable action is one that is in keeping with the spirit of this alignment, while dishonorable actions tend to be those which bring shame to the character in the eyes of his or her alignment peers. Note that an action which is considered honorable by one alignment may be considered dishonorable by another alignment and vice versa.
The following actions are honorable for this alignment:
Allowing a disarmed enemy to pick up his weapon
Allowing the enemy to attack first
Allowing the enemy to remove their dead/wounded from the field
Defeating a superior opponent
Picking up the funeral expenses of someone you slew in combat
Refusing medical treatment for the good of the party
Reporting illegal and immoral actions to the authorities
Saving the life of another at great risk to own self
Taking an arrow or hit for someone else
Taking prisoners
The following actions are dishonorable for this alignment:
Accused of crime (innocent or not)
Attacking an unarmed or obviously inferior opponent
Being taken prisoner
Convicted of a crime
Defeated by an inferior opponent
Delivering death blow to a helpless opponent
Desecrating an enemy's corpse
Dirty fighting
Falsely claiming the 'bragging rights' that belong to another or outright lying
Fleeing a battle that's obviously going poorly
Fleeing a fight with a superior opponent
Fleeing a fight with an equal opponent
Gloating over a victory
Killing a host who has provided you food or shelter
Neglecting to properly bury a member of one's own race
Paying off an extortionist or shake-down
Perpetrate humiliating prank on enemy
Rash or improper social behavior
Refusing a fair contest/challenge
Surrendering
Taking a bribe
Taunting an enemy into fighting
Treason
Unjustly slaying a prisoner or unarmed opponent who has yielded
Walking away from a challenge
These are some of the guidelines I follow and no where does it say a Lawful Good or Paladin character. Cannot Sneak, use skills that can allow him to advance into places held by evil. Nor does it say he cannot use sneak attack, which to be more precise would be like precision fighting. Which in combat your not just going to swing at their mid section your going to go for the quickest route to defeat them before they defeat you. However he sin't fighting dirty because their are no dirty tactics going on. The enemy isn't flat footed, unarmed or anything or else the Paladin could not attack.
As Mysterious Stranger put it so elegantly. Tactics are not frowned upon by Paladin's.
Paladins of Torag have free reign to whatever the hell they please, so long as they're defending his ideas and people.
That includes spanking enemies without remorse. ;)
Lmao nice Seranov. :)
True the particular deity has some sway in how a Paladin acts too. :)
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Paladin/Ninja might be okay.
All of your saves become good.
You get 8 skills per level
You get a Ki pool to allow you to make extra attacks in a full round action.
There are some good ninja tricks as well, only one has a restriction on armor.
Paladin/Bloodrager (Steelblooded) might work as well.
Also Tiefling (pitborn is a good choice) + Fey Foundling + Paladin FCB = so much healing with Lay on Hands.
Considering this will be a gestalt character I think the archeologist bard will offer more than the ninja. First and most importantly are spells. The bard has a lot of spells that work very well for infiltration and deception. Even some of the 0 level spells are incredibly useful. Message allows you to coordinate with allies, or to pass information back and forth. The uses for Mage Hand, and Sift should be pretty obvious. It’s also pretty hard to stop something that is invisible and able to dimension door. If he takes the archmage path, or dual path he can take wild arcana to be able to spend a mystic point to cast any bard spell.
Skill wise bards get 6 skill points per level and get to add half their level to all knowledge skills. This effectively gives the bard 11 skill points per level. Lore master may only be useable a few times per day but the ability to take 20 on a knowledge skill that you have a good bonus on is still pretty good. Both archeologist luck and heroism stack and both of them add to all skills makes the archeologist one of the best skill based characters.
While an archeologist bard only gets a few rogue talents it gets enough to pick up what it needs. Trap spotter and fast stealth being the most useful. Ninja tricks are better than rogue talents but they don’t make up for the lack of spell casting.
The paladin gives a lot of combat ability especially against evil which this AP should have plenty of. The extra damage from sneak attack is not going to be all that important and may be difficult to setup. Since a bard is able to cast in light armor with no chance of arcane spell failure this allows the character to use a mithral breastplate without any chance of arcane spell failure.
Although I love Bards, I think Oracle is a much stronger choice for a paladin gestalt. Oracle of Battle if you want to be melee king, Oracle of Life if you want to be a super-healer, or Oracle of Wood if you want to go the archery route (which would be devastating.)
Rich Parents is a pretty horrible trait by the way. After about 1 level it is basically worthless as the advantage of that initial wealth fades to nothing quickly. There are a ton of traits that will benefit you for your whole career, I'd suggest looking for one of those. If nothing else, reactionary is always a solid choice.
If you aren't set on the Paladin side of things, an inquisitor/monk would be pretty awesome, particularly an inquisitor/zen archer.
Dave Justus
Corerue here!
I had thought about it but there is already one posted.
I was trying to play a combination that wasn't already spoken for. Which is hard.
I dropped the Rich Parents trait with Sine Nomine above (which is my Pal/Sor build) I tried to focus on being a blaster/Buffer type and then wade in with my claws draconic type.
Will pursue DD with that build.
My other entry is a Magus (Kensai, Bladebound)/Alchemist (Grenadier)
I thought it would be interesting with those classes together, despite it not being optimal. However, I am pursuing a dervish build with him and the combination of bombs, scimitar and always having a hand free kinda lent to the epic feel of when he isn't engaged in melee. He is tossing bombs at the enemy.
This is his profile. :)