Thanks for your response, Ryan. I agree that the economy and settlements are important, and that they need to exist before PvP does. The thing is, these three things are extremely important and interlocked. Sometimes, stuff like "multiple races" feel more like, well, sideprojects. Like things that really could've waited while we instated Stand and Deliver and looting.Back to the survey, the folks who *had not yet* played in the Alpha, were most interested in seeing the CRB materials expanded in the game; since PFTT players are a part of Ryan's market, it makes sense to add in a few more races than just humans.
And that's where crowdforging kind of falls flat. Different markets prioritize different things, but sometimes the market prioritizes stuff that will hurt the game in the long run. Like trying to force in non-human races when the game is barely playable.
So what makes you think that your views on how this game should be played are more indicative of the to-be greater general populace of the game than the landslide-majority views held by those currently playing the game? This community has a lean, certainly, but that lean should be indicative of the lean of the target audience unless you can present hard facts as to why this community is biased differently than the population that will be joining the game later.
when the game is barely playable
to a lot of people who came to enjoy the open-world PvP PFO promised.
Gee it sure would be dumb if I posted that sentence without the second half clarifying what I meant.
Interestingly, Spitfire, your survey was one of the "informants" for my post. Banditry was rated very low on "Priorities and Rankings" while PvP overall was ranked at the bottom. Enhanced Escalations had a 10 and Races had a 16. Feuds had a -10 and Banditry had a -15. That was just something that stuck out at me.
2. PvE barely beat PvP for everything the two were compared on; but the difference was not significant by any means and not translatable to the larger PFO player-base.
Enhanced Escalations had a 10 and Races had a 16. Feuds had a -10 and Banditry had a -15. That was just something that stuck out at me.
Interestingly, Spitfire, your survey was one of the "informants" for my post. Banditry was rated very low on "Priorities and Rankings" while PvP overall was ranked at the bottom. Enhanced Escalations had a 10 and Races had a 16. Feuds had a -10 and Banditry had a -15. That was just something that stuck out at me.2. PvE barely beat PvP for everything the two were compared on; but the difference was not significant by any means and not translatable to the larger PFO player-base.
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So what makes you think that your views on how this game should be played are more indicative of the to-be greater general populace of the game than the landslide-majority views held by those currently playing the game? This community has a lean, certainly, but that lean should be indicative of the lean of the target audience unless you can present hard facts as to why this community is biased differently than the population that will be joining the game later.
Mainly the fact that the majority of people in the game are from the Paizo forums. And funny enough (okay, point of no return here), the majority of people who hail from games similar to PFO like EVE? They're excited about PvP. And most of the people who don't like PvP? They're tabletop gamers who say things like "I hate PvP, but hope to be able to avoid it."
Tabletop RPGs are a teensy little market compared to the MMO business. And tabletop gamers aren't really a good market to focus on when you're making MedEVEal.
This is dangerous ground for me. I get that.* I'm just kind of weary of the attitude that PvP is a "necessary evil". People are welcome to think that, but that's not how the game needs to behave. The game needs to treat PvP as kind of a central theme. The "yin" to merchants' "yang".
I guess I just have trouble taking the people who don't like PvP very seriously. I have trouble believing they're going to stick around if PFO is at all successful.
*Like, really dangerous ground. I am dissing people who I legitly like with what I'm saying. People in my own settlement, I'm pretty sure. And considering the reaction I'm getting, I'm probably going to stay the hell away from this thread and this general subject matter after today and go back to making Youtube jokes.
Interestingly, Spitfire, your survey was one of the "informants" for my post. Banditry was rated very low on "Priorities and Rankings" while PvP overall was ranked at the bottom. Enhanced Escalations had a 10 and Races had a 16. Feuds had a -10 and Banditry had a -15. That was just something that stuck out at me.2. PvE barely beat PvP for everything the two were compared on; but the difference was not significant by any means and not translatable to the larger PFO player-base.
You are wrong Sebastian. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
I'm kind of getting pissed now, so yeah. I'm done. Back to Jontron jokes and Gravity Falls references.
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I would seriously doubt your conclusion that people who like EVE inherently like pvp more than pve, both as one of those players who really love EVE and as one who leans heavily pve. You do however have a valid point, that the majority of people joining us from now on will be from MMO backgrounds as compared to the paizo forums here. That being said I haven't actually seen evidence to support the claim that a majority of people here originated from the paizo forums.
Yes, because I asked for a murder simulator. Because that is what I said.
Goddammit. I told myself I was done, and here I am.
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I guess I just have trouble taking the people who don't like PvP very seriously. I have trouble believing they're going to stick around if PFO is at all successful.
I think there could and should be a place for players in PFO who choose to avoid PVP, just like in the real world non-combatants still play a meaningful role in society, and even in the wars between groups.
Whether or not PFO evolves to a point to facilitate that kind of gameplay certainly remains to be seen, but judging by Ryan's statements, I think it wouldn't be omitted intentionally or purposefully.
Nihimon didn't say you specifically wanted a murder simulator, but you made the point that there will be a number of people drawn here by the open-world pvp, and those people will likely be coming here with incorrect preconceptions.
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The most important thing for PvP in Pathfinder Online is that it be meaningful.
To make it meaningful we need to have things to do other than kill each other.
I believe I understand what you mean, and I know some people feel that there is no reason for pvp until other mechanics to make it meaningful are implemented. However, competition for resources is a longstanding "meaningful" reason that conditions exist for right now. The past couple of weeks, multiple groups have been searching for large quantities of iron, as an example. Periodically, clusters of nodes are found that are rich in supply of desired mats. If word got out of a good area for copper or beast pelts, I know some would take notice. Have there been groups willing to take the rep hit so these nodes go to their gatherers and that their crafters get mats they need that are in limited supply right now? Has there been "real" pvp yet so crafters can progress?
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: The video game players will come. They will play PFO as a video game, not a Virtual Table Top game. The roleplayers and the video gamers will have to learn to get along.
The aspect of that statement that applies here is that video gamers tend to like PVP, not grudgingly tolerate it. KC has a point there.
Ryan also has a point. There's no way to gain from PVP yet, other than to harvest tears of frustration from your victims. Tear harvesting is not the kind of PVP that GW wants to encourage.
Until we have valid reasons to fight each other, better-developed PVP systems will only encourage tear harvesting/murder simulation. I'm fine with waiting for corpse looting until Settlements and Companies a) EXIST as social structures, and b) Can declare wars and feuds (including the War of Towers as Warfare Version 0.5).
Edit: Even fighting over nodes isn't very meaningful right now. Meeting other players between towns is incredibly rare, in my experience. Having enough of them around to steal all the nodes you want... Have you seen that happen? I know I haven't.
Edit 2: By "EXIST as social structures", I mean having the game recognize each player as a member of a settlement, and possibly a company. Right now I can hang out around the buildings that will be Tavernhold, but the software doesn't know that I'm a member of Tavernhold, or the Dream Seekers.
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In theory, players carrying goods to the Auction House could be valid targets, but I'm one of those who believe that the Auction Houses will see a whole lot more use when the game is live, the characters won't be wiped, and the interface is easier to use.
As far as I can tell, I'm still the only person who has listed anything at the Alderwag AH. Even my auctions aren't there right now, because I forgot to renew them last night.
When characters are persistent and husk looting exists, guarding gatherers and merchants on their way to the market will become a valid play style. So will robbing them, even without SAD. If Reputation regenerates at a good pace, it won't totally eliminate banditry.
(I'm really ready for the live game to start. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about characters that will be deleted soon. Couple more weeks...)
Mainly the fact that the majority of people in the game are from the Paizo forums. And funny enough (okay, point of no return here), the majority of people who hail from games similar to PFO like EVE? They're excited about PvP. And most of the people who don't like PvP? They're tabletop gamers who say things like "I hate PvP, but hope to be able to avoid it."
Tabletop RPGs are a teensy little market compared to the MMO business. And tabletop gamers aren't really a good market to focus on when you're making MedEVEal.
This is dangerous ground for me. I get that.* I'm just kind of weary of the attitude that PvP is a "necessary evil". People are welcome to think that, but that's not how the game needs to behave. The game needs to treat PvP as kind of a central theme. The "yin" to merchants' "yang".
I guess I just have trouble taking the people who don't like PvP very seriously. I have trouble believing they're going to stick around if PFO is at all successful.
All fair points, KC!
2. PvE barely beat PvP for everything the two were compared on; but the difference was not significant by any means and not translatable to the larger PFO player-base.
My point being that PvP and PvE are effectively equal in their being at the bottom of the pile- but even that conclusion is no indication of where the larger community (beyond the forums) actually stands. The actual numbers you were looking at can be deceiving.
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So what makes you think that your views on how this game should be played are more indicative of the to-be greater general populace of the game than the landslide-majority views held by those currently playing the game? This community has a lean, certainly, but that lean should be indicative of the lean of the target audience unless you can present hard facts as to why this community is biased differently than the population that will be joining the game later.
Mainly the fact that the majority of people in the game are from the Paizo forums. And funny enough (okay, point of no return here), the majority of people who hail from games similar to PFO like EVE? They're excited about PvP. And most of the people who don't like PvP? They're tabletop gamers who say things like "I hate PvP, but hope to be able to avoid it."
Tabletop RPGs are a teensy little market compared to the MMO business. And tabletop gamers aren't really a good market to focus on when you're making MedEVEal.
This is dangerous ground for me. I get that.* I'm just kind of weary of the attitude that PvP is a "necessary evil". People are welcome to think that, but that's not how the game needs to behave. The game needs to treat PvP as kind of a central theme. The "yin" to merchants' "yang".
I guess I just have trouble taking the people who don't like PvP very seriously. I have trouble believing they're going to stick around if PFO is at all successful.
*Like, really dangerous ground. I am dissing people who I legitly like with what I'm saying. People in my own settlement, I'm pretty sure. And considering the reaction I'm getting, I'm probably going to stay the hell away from this thread and this general subject matter after today and go back to making Youtube jokes.
Yes, I am a tabletop RPG player. Yes, I hoped that PFO would hew a little closer to the PnP experience. No, I don't dislike PvP--I dislike stupid and pointless PvP that hinders character development more than it promotes it. No, I don't actually care if you take me seriously, and I don't care what you think this game needs any more than you seem to care about the opinions of those who disagree with you.
I will say this--when you write that you don't think non-PvPers will stick around if PFO is successful, what I read is your wishful hope that non-PvPers will go away so you can have your game the way you want it. To quote good Westley: "get used to disappointment."
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I of course completely agree with KC's point the people currently inhabiting the forums are not representative of the audience PFO will have to bring in if it is to be successful.
At the moment every major type of content sucks. The PvE sucks, the PvP sucks, even the crafting sucks. I can name numerous titles that do all three things better. I can even name numerous games that do all 3 better than EVE.
So what's the draw? How do you sell this game? This is a "leave your mark on the world" game. The primary story drivers aren't the Horde and Alliance, they are Aragon, Talonguard, Golgotha, etc. Real factions run by real players. All your actions be they crafting, PvEing or PvPing make a mark on that world. That's the main selling point of PFO.
Who consumes a title like that? People with a competitive spirit. Not people here to treat the game like a social club but people who are here for what I call an "empire simulator." I remember seeing a poll of EVE's players a long time ago asking what kinds of content they did the most and which kind they wanted to do the most. The results showed the largest amount of content consumed was PvE content particularly mission and ratting. But what did players want to be doing. I believe it was about 90% of the population that wanted to be PvPing. Fairly sure that was across all players living in all security level spaces.
These games attract competitive players, and competitive players like to PvP. That's the reason they choose a title like this where they can make a mark in the world over games with well designed PvE systems and plenty of PvE content where their accomplishments ultimately mean nothing even to their precious "Alliance" and "Horde".
I realize about 90% of you disagree with me, but about 90% of you are one good hard reality check called the feud system from leaving this game.
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In theory, players carrying goods to the Auction House could be valid targets, but I'm one of those who believe that the Auction Houses will see a whole lot more use when the game is live, the characters won't be wiped, and the interface is easier to use.
As far as I can tell, I'm still the only person who has listed anything at the Alderwag AH. Even my auctions aren't there right now, because I forgot to renew them last night.
When characters are persistent and husk looting exists, guarding gatherers and merchants on their way to the market will become a valid play style. So will robbing them, even without SAD. If Reputation regenerates at a good pace, it won't totally eliminate banditry.
(I'm really ready for the live game to start. It's hard to stay enthusiastic about characters that will be deleted soon. Couple more weeks...)
And I would have gladly purchased whatever you had listed on our AH, KarlBob... if only I could have found the listing for it!
Like you, I'm eager to start playing "for reals".
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LiF feels like more is going on.
I dunno if I can say the graphics are better or whatever, but if both PFO and LiF were in the state they are in without any possible issues (like crashing to desktop level issues), I would play LiF.
I can get behind that sort of a sandbox and I was pretty sad to realize PFO has much less environmental interaction. I like that you can click on something and interact.
PFO doesn't have much interaction at all. The reason LiF seems more promising is because there seems to be a larger structure to build with where as PFO doesn't seem as though it's gonna do anything except polish what they already have... which is bare bones even if there are PoI, Settlements, etc.
I have more fun gathering twigs to make a campfire in LiF than I do in PFO. haha. LiF is also more immersive because you have to eat and such. PFO doesn't feel like a world to me.
Edit: you know the reason I come to PFO forums every once in awhile is because I kinda feel like they may say something like O we were wrong! Our game isn't robust enough, we are going to make it deeper! I know it's stupid, but it'd be nice if it happened.
Otherwise, I may have to make a meaningful choice and stop checking.
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Edit: you know the reason I come to PFO forums every once in awhile is because I kinda feel like they may say something like O we were wrong! Our game isn't robust enough, we are going to make it deeper! I know it's stupid, but it'd be nice if it happened.
I'm not sure why they would come to the forums to say that, when I believe the majority of the people here understand that is the status quo, ie. it is understood the game is still being built.
I'm also still baffled about the comparisons here with LiF.
LiF is Rust with a medieval flare, combat a la Chivalry Medieval Warfare, and minecrafting elements. Now granted, I think that is a really cool combination of features, it is still a whole different gamefrom PFO.
When LiF servers can hold hundreds of players, and the towns/buidings they build persist indefinitely, then I'd consider equating them from a overall gameplay standpoint.
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Who consumes a title like that? People with a competitive spirit. Not people here to treat the game like a social club but people who are here for what I call an "empire simulator."
Why do you think empire building appeals mainly to competitive people?
Lots of people who enjoy "sim-city" style solo games would be very excited about an empire building game in a shared world where their empires could interact with other empires in a cooperative way, without being excited about PVP.
There can be lots of competition based around "I built it better and faster," rather than your limited view of competition being "I tore yours down."
The option of PVP as a conflict resolution mechanic needs to exist to give meaning to other parts of the game.
PVP is the spice that brings out the rich flavors of the soup. That's not a justification for claiming that habenero paste is a more popular dish than seafood gumbo.
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When LiF servers can hold hundreds of players, and the towns/buidings they build persist indefinitely, then I'd consider equating them from a overall gameplay standpoint.
PFO has only had settlement towns for a week and this weekend is the first time we're going to see more than a handful of people in General.
I don't consider equating the two games, ever. Life is Feudal could copy every single thing that PFO is doing and earn a thousand times the sales. It doesn't matter to me. I'll be happy if five years from now Goblinworks delivered everything they pitched in the Kickstarter even if it results in a niche userbase.
I'd think Life is Futile if I see another New Game Experience.
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When T7V mounts a surprise attack and wipes out TEO's settlement, then places "guardians" in KOTC settlements to "protect" them is when I know the vision for PFO is approaching completion ;)
Yes!
And if there's going to be something 'after completion' I'd like those settlements to include castles, towers and dungeons where the guardians can include traps, monsters and Imperial Walkers...ok maybe not the last one...but I would like to someday see something similar to the tech demo dungeon. Not theme park or instanced, but very throwback early 2K's MMO style for PvE.
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I realize about 90% of you disagree with me, but about 90% of you are one good hard reality check called the feud system from leaving this game.
You assume too much. I'm a very competitive player and have always focused on the PvP aspects of the numerous MMOs I've inhabited. Many of your points are noteworthy and I agree with quite a lot of what you're saying.
However, your delivery is all wrong and your constantly trying to divide the people on these forums into sects; that's not going to help you accomplish anything. This game needs work and it's in Alpha, business as usual.
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I dunno if I can say the graphics are better or whatever, but if both PFO and LiF were in the state they are in without any possible issues (like crashing to desktop level issues), I would play LiF.
Celestialiar, it may just be me, or a basic facet of your personality on the boards, but it feels like you've never had a single positive thing to say about the game in all the time you've been posting. I'm confused about why you are still bothering if it such a poor fit for you?
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I dunno if I can say the graphics are better or whatever, but if both PFO and LiF were in the state they are in without any possible issues (like crashing to desktop level issues), I would play LiF.Celestialiar, it may just be me, or a basic facet of your personality on the boards, but it feels like you've never had a single positive thing to say about the game in all the time you've been posting. I'm confused about why you are still bothering if it such a poor fit for you?
He really, really wants food in the game and hopes his comments will convince others to make it a priority for MVP.
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...sucks. The PvE sucks, the PvP sucks, even the crafting sucks.
"Sucks" is an opinion-based word, so it can apply fairly enough to you, but you can't apply it to others, as they have their own standards. The voices we hear here every day tell us not all people are finding things particularly sucky.
Who consumes a title like that? People with a competitive spirit.
...
These games attract competitive players, and competitive players like to PvP.
Once again, as we hear every day, people with a cooperative spirit also have been and are enjoying PFO. Given that economics is always PVP, some people are not bothering to hit others with pieces of metal, but are exploring how to have their way with others in the various alternative ways PFO allows: marketplaces, Settlements, Companies, and crafting halls.
Even gathering in the countryside might become a form of PVP, if a group can, for example, sweep up all the Tier 1 gatherables, leaving little behind for those who follow. Competitive players will find ways to PVP, yes, but they'll not all be accomplishing their goals the same way; others will not measure their progress against other players but against themselves, or whatever other standard satisfies them.
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Anybody else find it odd Golarion only has one moon. What kind of fantasy planet only has one moon? Who made that choice?
Maybe... but it's an interesting moon nonetheless. Also plenty of other moons nearby:- Golarion's Solar System
It's phases coincide with our own Earth's out of interest:-
Yup; the moon above Golarion has the same phases and timing and all that as Earth's. Which is partially why Golarion's calendar matches the standard on Earth.
You'all can have The River Kingdoms... I've set my sights much higher. ;)
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Heh. I too want food in the game. It would be a great crafting line if food were not only used for buffs, but needed and was supported by a robust crafting line. However, it is not an urgent priority to be sure. Same with Animal Husbandry, Taming, and Animal Training, Mounts, Draft Animals, etc... Errr...same with Entertainment, and Combat Arenas, and Formation Combat, and Siege Equipment, and Road Construction and Improvements...
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Andius, thanks for turning me on the Life is Feudal, it looks BA.
It has many of the things I wished PFO to have.
Deep real time combat. no targeting, IE swing your sword and what it hits gets hit.
What looks like finished(?) formation combat(in all honesty it works exactly how I envisioned PFOs formations to work).
The world detail, animations(smoothness), buildings, characters are graphically 2 or 3 steps ahead of PFO at this point.
Buildings can be built anywhere, not at predefined locations.
The advancement system is like ultima online which is a very solid choice but I do like the time based system of EvE and PFO. However I dislike achievement gating.
interactivity, if there is a tree you can harvest wood. dont like that hill? take it down. dig holes? yup.
Here is my list of things PFO does better, or has that I (now) wish LiF had.
PFO is an MMO, or at least an MO at this point, I'm sure LiF will get there but they are not yet.
HUGE world, even the EE map is very grand in scope. Depending on the player base I think it may turn out to be too much, but time will tell.
Economy that is player driven, able to easily be tweaked by the devs.
local AHs and transport of goods. (more economy)
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Who consumes a title like that? People with a competitive spirit. Not people here to treat the game like a social club but people who are here for what I call an "empire simulator."Why do you think empire building appeals mainly to competitive people?
Lots of people who enjoy "sim-city" style solo games...
Because in a Sim City style solo game nobody is going to come torch your city or take it over. It doesn't matter if someone builds something bigger or better as long as you are satisfied with what you have built.
In this kind of game it absolutely does. In this game people will raid you, they will kill your members, and if you can't mount a strong defense they will take over your lands.
That doesn't happen in Sim City.
Once again, as we hear every day, people with a cooperative spirit also have been and are enjoying PFO.
A PFO with:
1. No feud system.
2. No territorial control.
3. No SADs.
4. An incredibly small PvPer population.
At this point we have nothing more than a contentless theme-park:
"Sucks" is an opinion-based word, so it can apply fairly enough to you, but you can't apply it to others, as they have their own standards. The voices we hear here every day tell us not all people are finding things particularly sucky.
PvE- You kill escalations which without territorial control really have no meaning. Escalations are fought back with typical grind style quests. The AI is so bad the players had to be nerfed (band-aid ranged fix) for it to provide any challenge at all.
PvP- No meaningful consequence for losing or gain for winning. Even if both parties consent there is no way to engage in it without massive consequence. The combat system is choppy and poorly animated. Incredibly important abilities such as charge barely function at all.
Crafting- You get items and stick them in a building that does all the work for you. It requires no effort, no experimentation and while certain items have different "qualities" the QL system just allows you to execute different QL recipes. It's no more complex than any theme-park.
To be blunt, I don't see how anything in game is currently better than WoW, and without the competitive PvP driven aspect that has yet to emerge I don't see how it ever will be. You're entitled to your opinions but for the sake of the audience could you enlighten us on why you feel this content could be described as anything but sub-par?
And I'd like to add many of these people giving feedback wouldn't criticize GW no matter what they delivered. From the people outside this community I've shown the PFO alpha the reviews have been universally negative and I actually got a PM from an ex-TSV yesterday completely disillusioned with this product and the crowdforging process informing me they won't be playing this game.
Oh and you might find this part of their PM interesting...
Nihimon, Being & Jazz are perfect examples, they just adapt their opinions To the dev's...
PS. A question for anyone from TEO. You belong to a very large gaming community called CotP. Hundreds or even thousands or players belong to it. At this point just how many CotP who didn't join through TEO have tried PFO and decided to stay?
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LiF does look superior to PFO (in its current stage) in many aspects of the game. That being said, I feel they both have potential.
What I believe the main disadvantages GW has are with Ryan's model and a failure to accurately recognize PFO's real competition.
Minimum Viable Product may be a concept that every game producer has in mind, but it has never been elevated to the status of being desirable as it has been by Goblin Works. Then there is the failure to understand that GW (Ryan) does not determine what MVP is, the consumer does. This I will connect to their second disadvantage, but for now I will just write that the whole slogan of MVP comes off as a scapegoat for the lack of features, graphics, etc.
The second disadvantage is a misconception of what games will be PFO's competition. I believe that Ryan seems to feel that only sandbox, open world. MMOs are the competition for PFO. That is incorrect. PFO is competing against every game, every genre, that charges $15.00 per month.
When potential consumers are looking to where they will spend their $15.00 per month, the MVP model will fail to snatch those dollars. Main reason is, consumers will not likely pay for beta. Regardless of what GW thinks, even after EE begins, PFO will still be in a beta phase. On that mark, PFO loses hands down, because no one else charges for beta.
What I believe would be best for PFO, to give it a fighting chance, is a delay in EE. PFO probably needs at least another 3 months of development. MVP must include at least 75% of the overall systems GW has in mind. They should not believe that because there are kickstarters with 1, 2, or 4 months worth of free play after EE that these same players will decide to pay $15.00 a month while they wait for too many systems to be introduced.
The argument to "promise low and deliver later" has not been winning over potential consumers.
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I'm very happy with where the game is right now. I'm in love with the theory behind the escalations and have all the confidence that the PVE is going to be real fun just a few months into EE. The PvP whining is just that, GW has been very up front that the PvP is basically not in yet, but will be just a few weeks into EE. The graphics are in the same ballpark as similar games taking this approach like LiF and Rust. You like more realism? Well tough luck this is Pathfinder if you didn't notice and they will be following the painted comic book look of the IP they carry.
Not being a Yes Man here, I was openly critical of how I thought the game was not ready for the original start date last month. Right now, I'm just about ready roll with just a few chinks they need to iron out from here to Halloween.
This whole thread just sounds like a guy who is looking for an excuse to take his ball and go home. Can I have your stuff Andius? I would have preferred to just take it off your shell...
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LiF does look superior to PFO (in its current stage) in many aspects of the game. That being said, I feel they both have potential.
SAD's were NEVER promised as day 1 EE material. As a matter of fact it was really far down the line until crowdforging placed it up the priority list. The formation system? Well naturally that's going to be in for LiF before PFo because it's a primary feature for them, secondary feature not needed until settlement warfare is in over here.
I do agree that the game is probably about 3 months away before anybody will be willing to fork over $15/month, but that's EXACTLY why the only people playing it for the first 3 months are pre paid Kickstarter backers.
I am completely failing to see what about this EE is not EXACTLY what GW has been telling you day 1 was going to be like for a couple years now. So why the pouting now? If you want to wait 3 months, WAIT THREE MONTHS. If the game had started last month when I felt it wasn't ready I would have waited too.