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Ok, this thread is popping up as a bit of a challenge to some of the big statements out there about Tier System and DPR mastery etc.
Anzyr and I kind of fell into a challenge, for him to help me see why this Tier system is accepted by so many, when I have seen it rejected by so many.
I'm genuinely interested in the result here as I'm wondering if years of gaming in Adventure paths with generally fixed groups has truly coloured my vision of things.
I open this to anyone who wants to take a shot at it and we'll see how it progresses. The official info will be going to Anzyr but other builds can certainly be tested against it in similar ways.
The rules
- Im going to generate a random dungeon using a site called donjon. It's great and I'll chuck a link up to it soon.
- The initial challenge will start with a social challenge that will provide bonus information if you have a good chance of succeeding. I'll roll randomly to determine what skill is needed (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, insight) using the dice roller function here at set a Standard DC based on level (assuming I can generate one from the books suitably). If you can somehow bypass this test it counts as a success and the info comes your way.
- There will be skill challenge in getting to the site. This will help prevent a random encounter on the way. Skill challenge will come randomly from Survival, Kno Nature or Dungeoneering (depending on environment) or Perception. High chance of failure gives the encounter as something extra to deal with. Again you can bypass if possible through some feat or spell or skill you have if its relevant.
- The dungeon needs to be cleared within a 7 days of contract offer or reinforcements, random critters, something else refills the thing and you've effectively failed.
- You can travel back to a Large town to resupply. Its half a days travel, with all the restrictions of a town that big. I'll roll random loot once for the seven day cycle for the town.
- The dungeon itself generates loot too. I'll let you know what pops up as you go.
- The system assumes standard fantasy. So, 15 point buy. Only one stat less than 10 before race mods. No stat less than 3 ever. This rule is the same for everyone so no one is disadvantaged really.
- Gear is wealth per level. We are starting at level 5. If you have crafting feats, you need to use the Ultimate Campaign rules for your new Wealth limit.
- Initially this was just for Anzyr, but I reckon others can give it a crack. There are 4 characters to a Standard party. I'm going to provide characters at your level from NPC guide. Characters will be Barbarian, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue. You can choose which of those classes your character is replacing.
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How it will work (hopefully).
I'll provide descriptions of areas and encounters. You respond with relevant skills, spells etc.
I'll reveal results and DC's plus other stats. A general overview of how the battle would play out without your input.
You then throw your best tactic at it and do a run down of how successful that action would be in terms of % success. (or number required to roll on the D20 if you prefer that).
Your NPCs react in standard ways unless you give direct instructions. In a real game tactics are discussed between players so this should be no different here.
Note, we're not going to run the combat. We're going to try and work out how well you might do by looking at percentages and working out number of rounds it might take to resolve. From that we can see how successful it is.
Anzyr has asked that someone impartial steps in to adjudicate. When I generate the random stuff I'll send to that person via PM. (it will be a big cut and paste sorry). I'll roll for the random challenges mentioned above using the dice roller function here.
Once we finish the level 5 one, we'll step up to level 10, then to 15.
You keep the same build. Keep gear from the challenge if you want. Sell what you don't at half price. Get the rest of your gear from the difference between your current wealth and your wealth per level.
Same caveat on Crafting Items. Since we're jumping levels your wealth is increased from crafting feats as per the Ultimate Campaign rules.
All rulings are to be done as per RAW.
If things are need to rolled secretly (such as % fail on things or for divination truths or for teleport fails etc), then I'll roll those and send result to the impartial before describing events in game.
Ok. Feedback welcome before it kicks off.
Cheers.
Oh yeah, builds can only use things from the PRD from this site. Lets keep it in house and make it easier for folks who don't have all the books etc.
Two Traits, also only from the PRD
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I assume Standard WBL (and you said you are using Ultimate Campaigns 25% increase in WBL for crafting feats). But we still need:
Point Buy.
And amount of preparation. (This is important I need to know how many Explosive Runes I can have stockpiled.)
What kind of Skeletons can I start with?
Etc.
Dotting for interest because I don't have time for more in depth contributions atm.
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This sounds like fun. Why do the other party members have to be those classes? Can we sub them for others in the NPC guide?
Is there a link to how WBL works with crafting. I have UC but remember how that works.
Can we control what spells the NPC casters have memorized?
Since parties often build PCs to work together can some limited changes be made to NPC sheets? (teamwork feats, stealth, eq)
Can we up the level by 1 to better reflect iterative attacks?
Is retraining allowed?
Can one member of the team go over WBL if others are under?
How will consumables work?
Can we hire spellcasting?
Can we have distance and terrain instead of half a day so that faster parties can make town more easily?
Can we hire 1-3 NPC class hirelings?
Can we buy exotic animals? (Giffion, tiger, dinos)
Will the dungeon itself be hard to find?
If the foes are intelligent can we attempt social means to win them over? Is interrogation allowed? (I will try and pull map out of guards as well as force type.)
Will the dungeon react to incursions by posting new guards at the entrance to replace old ones?
Is camping near the dungeon at night reasonable?
Are we allowed to engage in non combat tactics like tunneling? Disguise? Siege?
Can we scout?If RAI is clear but RAW is not can we go with a non RAI interpretation?
Nice set of questions.
Most of those will fall in the purview of an actual campaign, and I'm not here to run one of those.
NPCs will be as statted in the codex. I guess we could go melee, arcane, divine, skill. However, the idea is to keep this standard so I chose those classes specifically. I nearly swapped rogue with bard, but that kind of swayed things into heavily magic group.
Spells for NPCs need to stay as is, except since some of them are evil, we can swap the cause damage to heal damage spells. Also, channel can convert to healing rather than damaging.
As for the other questions. You have your own wealth not the NPCs wealth. Feel free to hire extras as necessary. They are not cannon fodder though and I'd make decisions for them as I would in any campaign. Same for the NPCs, while you have tactics, you don't control,them mindlessly.
Any means of getting around the challenge is acceptable. I'd have to make calls on each as required, but they'll be made based on the situation and creatures as realistically as I can.
Consumables get tracked through the challenge. Can be shared amongst the 4 team mates as needed.
You can buy things listed in the core books as sellable. I do have the supplement for animal companions etc, but not everyone else will. Also remember this is a dungeon crawl setting, so some things won't really work as creatures in there.
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More answers.
Dungeons may respond by reinforcing areas. It depends on what gets rolled up,in the randomiser.
Camping nearby works. The more you try that though the greater the chance something may wander into your group.
Note the goal is to clear the dungeon within a week. You can try whatever tactics you feel will work to achieve that goal.
I'm not sure using the NPC codex for generating allies is a good idea. The NPC codex has some seriously flawed characters in it that make me doubt its usefulness as a resource. Some rules failures (the famous monk that's supposed to Spring Attack with Vital Strike), and some just not being good enough (the 20th level ranger with an attack bonus of +28 on a good day).
It might be a good idea to build a dungeon set up to stress all the different aspects of adventuring, rather than a random one- a randomly generated dungeon could easily favor certain character types more than others.
Other than that, it looks like a good framework for testing.
I'm not sure using the NPC codex for generating allies is a good idea. The NPC codex has some seriously flawed characters in it that make me doubt its usefulness as a resource. Some rules failures (the famous monk that's supposed to Spring Attack with Vital Strike), and some just not being good enough (the 20th level ranger with an attack bonus of +28 on a good day).
As long as the characters pulled from the NPC codex are consistent, and the good ones are cherry-picked, there shouldn't be a problem stemming from the quality of the rest of the book.
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Tell you what, I'll pick a class from melee, arcane, divine and skill for each level challenge we do. I'll pick ones that seem to me to be effective at what they do, then anyone trying the challenge gets the same ones. Your character then gets to replace one of them based on your roll. You wont get to have a wizard as you class and choose to keep the arcane caster NPC for instance.
Aratrok - I have to keep this random as it will ensure im not biasing things on my end either. I think that is more than a fair stipulation from Anzyr to tell you the truth. I think we've both been burned in the past by people skewing things to favour their point of view, and that's not what I want to see here.
I agree that I'd like some other situations that pop up like they do in campaigns. Thinks like defense of a town with innocents running around, social challenge like a dinner party or ball room, urban crawl through streets and buildings, wilderness exploration etc. However, doing that without making people feel biased against is probably hard.
I would propose a model where I randomly choose areas of published APS and run them with prebuilds, but that really lets people cheat if they want.
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I assume Standard WBL (and you said you are using Ultimate Campaigns 25% increase in WBL for crafting feats). But we still need:
Point Buy.
And amount of preparation. (This is important I need to know how many Explosive Runes I can have stockpiled.)
What kind of Skeletons can I start with?
Etc.
This one starts at level 5 Anzyr. I stipulated point buy above.
You start off in a large town, Good aligned. Having skeletons with you in town is a no go. However, the next one will see you in a Neutral town where people don't care as long as you aren't killing them. The last one will be in enemy territory.
You have one weeks preparation before getting the mission. You then have 7 days to finish the mission. This is to simulate the idea that parties are often under the pump to get things done.
You start from scratch apart from the time listed above. This simulates the use of resources in previous adventures etc.
After we complete the 1st one (at level 5) we'll belt a plan for the prep time between the level 10 one. Again though, it is expected that you are going to be under the pump, as that is pretty much how every AP written to date runs (with the exception of kingmaker).
It is standard WBL. First crafting feat nets you 25% WBL increase. Second one gets you to 50% WBL. That's where it caps. Note those rules state you have to buy the gear at full price, but your WBL is increased to take into account you crafting.
If you are crafting during the challenge, I expect to see the rolls required using the roll function here. But that's just for crafting in the time span listed above. (7 days before adventure, 7 days during)
Other than that, I think the idea is to use percentages rather than actual rolls to help even things out. I'd like to see us try and work out take down rounds etc.
Eg if you do a spell effect that's 75% likely to succeed, and there are four opponents, then three will get affected and one won't. Etc.
Any other suggestions are also welcome.
Also, please create the character and post it somewhere for people to check. Either an alias or a cut and paste from some program like Herolabs. I don't mind if I don't know it, but to keep this impartial others should be able to check if its all above board.
In fact, its best I don't know so I can run the baddies without bias.
Cheers
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You should probably make the party composition the same at every level, just replace the most analogous party member. That way we control for party composition as much as possible. I would propose Wizard, Cleric, Barbarian, Paladin, and Bard, but other iterations might work.
I think that constructing a dungeon with specific assets to test a number of skills would be the most useful; it'd be time consuming. Pulling random APS might work, but it could be gamed.
I'll send you an example of one that this site generates if you like. They're pretty damn good. lots of different critters, traps, puzzles, descriptors and random encounters with some motivating factors. Not a bad way to simulate something without having to run a whole campaign.
I wont throw paladins in the mix as that may very well cramp the game play of some. Anzyr in particular wants to summon undead for use, and a Paladin will mess with that. I'm keen to see his style of play compared to what I'm used to seeing in a means of opening my eyes up a little.
Uh... what's with only one stat lower then 10. That's not exactly RAW. I'm going to go with the RAW here, since that's the only way the challenge has any value. I also offered to do a level 10 challenge, so I'll hold off til that one. Furthermore, I'm going to assume that if I can get my undead around the starting town I can keep them? I'll send my full sheet to a third party for checking, but I'll give my general statistics here.
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Uh... what's with only stat lower then 10. That's not exactly RAW. I'm going to go with the RAW here, since that's the only way the challenge has any value. I also offered to do a level 10 challenge, so I'll hold off til that one. I'll send my full sheet to a third party for checking, but I'll give my general statistics here.
Yeah, we're running something for a simulation of why the Tier system doesn't seem to hold up to real games.
Real games have stipulations just like I laid out. If you're not up for that, feel free not to participate.
RAW says I could make you roll stats, or other similar methods. In fact RAW puts character stat generation into the hands of the GM.
I feel mine is more than fair, and pretty representative of what most of us see in real games.
Also, since I cannot run this like a real campaign where heavily gimped stats will get you boned in all sorts of situations that I cant run here.
So I stand by my choice.
Also, if you're waiting for level 10, the undead can be in town since that's a neutral setting of "we really don't care"
Your chance to prove/support Tier system and caster power is here mate. Please take it. I'm seriously interested in seeing this in what is considered standard game conditions.
If you choose not to, that's your choice completely, but I guess I'll stop listening to arguments about supposed power from you specifically. Not that that'll worry you, but its how this all started in the first place.
Cheers
RAW for point buy imposes no such limits. The tier system goes by RAW. RAW is not what "What the GM decides." it is "By the book." And the book says nothing about only being able to drop one stat under 10.
I will stand by running a RAW test because that's the only way a metric has meaning. It is the fact that the tier list sticks to RAW that makes it so accurate. Yours is "I don't like low stats." which is a biased way to check the rules of the system. Either play the rules that are in the book or don't pretend your test is meaningful. The tier system has nothing to prove to someone who won't even run a RAW test of the classes. When you get to the level 10 random generation, I will have third party run your challenge but with RAW instead and post my results here.
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<sigh>
I tell you what, lets put it out there as a vote Anzyr.or of you want to have RAW, feel free to build your character as RAW and lets try it. 15 points, go to town.
Don't use spells that require DM interpretation or judgement please as that will completely muddy the RAW the test.
Also, waiting for level ten might take ages. I'll just bump this up to level 10. Same time stipulations as above.
Start from scratch with 7 days before mission is given, seven days to complete. It is assumed you've destroyed prepared resources before this situation in particularly tough encounters getting to level 10.
The scenario may change in terms of where its set though. Its level 10, so it may be underdark, or semi planar or other such.
Wealth will be split according to rules as written in the book. 25% Weapons, 25% Armour, 25% magic gear, 25% consumables.
Edit - Oops, replied to myself instead of editing. Sorry.
<sigh>
I tell you what, lets put it out there as a vote Anzyr.or of you want to have RAW, feel free to build your character as RAW and lets try it. 15 points, go to town.
Don't use spells that require DM interpretation or judgement please as that will completely muddy the RAW the test.
This is slightly shady to say the least. If you want to eliminate spell-caster options you should give a comprehensive list of what is not allowed, however this will of course not be RAW and will produce non-RAW based data due to most likely eliminating some of the casters most powerful options such as Simulacrum, Blood Money, or Dazing spell.
Without a clearly delineated set of guidelines you open the door to arguments later and the whole test faltering under the weight of arguing minutia.
I hope this is helpful, but I am beginning to doubt if this test will get off the ground.
Perhaps a non-biased third party should be the one designing the guidelines and all you should do Wrath is run the dungeon.
Edit:
Wealth will be split according to rules as written in the book. 25% Weapons, 25% Armour, 25% magic gear, 25% consumables.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
I assume you meant by this quote? This would leave anyone playing a caster with a lot of leeway due to the fact that they do not need armor or weapons and the rules specifically address this in my bolded text.
<sigh>
I tell you what, lets put it out there as a vote Anzyr.or of you want to have RAW, feel free to build your character as RAW and lets try it. 15 points, go to town.
Don't use spells that require DM interpretation or judgement please as that will completely muddy the RAW the test.
Also, waiting for level ten might take ages. I'll just bump this up to level 10. Same time stipulations as above.
Start from scratch with 7 days before mission is given, seven days to complete. It is assumed you've destroyed prepared resources before this situation in particularly tough encounters getting to level 10.
The scenario may change in terms of where its set though. Its level 10, so it may be underdark, or semi planar or other such.
Wealth will be split according to rules as written in the book. 25% Weapons, 25% Armour, 25% magic gear, 25% consumables.
Edit - Oops, replied to myself instead of editing. Sorry.
Suggestions as written.
Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
We will simply run those RAW. Planar Binding is extremely straightforward RAW. As is Blood Money, Animate Dead, Explosive Runes and Contact Other Plane. So for example using Contact Other Plane simply follows the chart. Thus contacting a lesser deity provides a 60% chance of true answer, a 15% chance the deity doesn't know, a 20% chance the deity's answer is a lie, and a 5% chance that the Deity gives a a random answer.
Like wise for Planar Binding, we simply compare charisma checks and if successful the creature serves for the duration of the spell or task.
Running things RAW is very easy.
<sigh>
I tell you what, lets put it out there as a vote Anzyr.or of you want to have RAW, feel free to build your character as RAW and lets try it. 15 points, go to town.
Don't use spells that require DM interpretation or judgement please as that will completely muddy the RAW the test.
This is slightly shady to say the least. If you want to eliminate spell-caster options you should give a comprehensive list of what is not allowed, however this will of course not be RAW and will produce non-RAW based data due to most likely eliminating some of the casters most powerful options such as Simulacrum, Blood Money, or Dazing spell.
Without a clearly delineated set of guidelines you open the door to arguments later and the whole test faltering under the weight of arguing minutia.
I hope this is helpful, but I am beginning to doubt if this test will get off the ground.
Perhaps a non-biased third party should be the one designing the guidelines and all you should do Wrath is run the dungeon.
Concur.
@ DominusMegadeus - Concur. The only weapon I'm buying is a +1 Courageous Spike Gauntlet. At 1/3 cost for the gauntlet (thanks craft), free cost for the masterwork (thanks masterwork transformation) and 8,000 GP for the total bonuses equaling +2. Or 8002 GP total.
I feel like PFS character generation rules are really the best method here. 20 point buy. All Paizo resources open. This represents the way the biggest subset of people play the game. If creating system metrics is to have real value , it should start from there.
I would be fine with adding the crafting rules on to that.
As for the specific vote, I don't see any issue with point buy by the CRB rules. That's the way to run this metric.
I feel like PFS character generation rules are really the best method here. 20 point buy. All Paizo resources open. This represents the way the biggest subset of people play the game. If creating system metrics is to have real value , it should start from there.
I would be fine with adding the crafting rules on to that.
As for the specific vote, I don't see any issue with point buy by the CRB rules. That's the way to run this metric.
Wow, a lot of posts between when I started reading and when I posted.
Wrath, you should just drop the charade. What you really are trying to tell everyone is "under my house rules the tier system doesn't hold up." And that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the underlying issues don't exist in the game.
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No probs. thanks for the feedback.
We'll run it as RAW.
I'm happy to have a third party non bias make ajudications in terms of DM decisions on spells.
Do we have a non biased person willing to step up. It will take some commitment though.
I think you guys are right in me not doing that. It would easily be deemed as not fair.
PFS rules seem good as a yardstick, but I'm not really around those as I don't play it or DM it. We mostly do APs in our area, running character generation around the guidelines in there. This could be why I don't see this disparity that many people do.
Cheers
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I feel like PFS character generation rules are really the best method here. 20 point buy. All Paizo resources open. This represents the way the biggest subset of people play the game. If creating system metrics is to have real value , it should start from there.
I would be fine with adding the crafting rules on to that.
As for the specific vote, I don't see any issue with point buy by the CRB rules. That's the way to run this metric.
Wow, a lot of posts between when I started reading and when I posted.
Wrath, you should just drop the charade. What you really are trying to tell everyone is "under my house rules the tier system doesn't hold up." And that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the underlying issues don't exist in the game.
This is no charade.
I responded with the spells thing since Anzyr purely wants RAW. If that's true, then it seems only fair that only RAW spells can be used . Nothing that involves the DM having to make a decision at all. Otherwise it would really be construed as me cheating.
However, the concept of an impartial judge making decisions on those seems fair to me.
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Yeah, standard 20 point buy, no restrictions. The ability to dump CHA and STR (and even WIS) safely is part of the wizard build's strength. If you really want to test things out, I would use RAW, and all Paizo materials. Also for a level 5 challenge you might provide some intelligence about the dungeon. Very few level 5 adventures go into a dungeon without intelligence gathering, unless you are also planning on some form of social interaction. As for bard, might be best to go with an archeologist bard over the rogue, but the rogue is classic and is a fine choice. I actually don't know if I agree that you should also control the party, the test would have a greater aura of fairness if either the character tester or a third party runs the rest of the parties.
I am considering putting together a conjurer to run it. I will wait to see how the rules develop.
The seven days to clear the dungeon is the time you get to investigate. It really just simulates a situation of under the pump. Something that happens regularly in games, particularly APs.
I'm cool with PFS for like point buy, but I avoid PFS do to the lack of certain content. That being said... oddly enough most of what I'd be using probably is PFS legal as I recall Blood Money and Razmiran Priest being ok. The only major issue is that it would curb some of the better divine spell scroll options.
I would volunteer to run the NPC's for any challenger.
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I'm cool with PFS for like point buy, but I avoid PFS do to the lack of certain content. That being said... oddly enough most of what I'd be using probably is PFS legal as I recall Blood Money and Razmiran Priest being ok. The only major issue is that it would curb some of the better divine spell scroll options.
I was hoping for a campaign neutral thing. The core rules are campaign neutral. However, if the consensus is PFS as the fairest, let's do it.
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Yeah, that is why I am working on a google doc of spell nerfs. It seems to come out that people who "reject" the tier list as being accurate also softban a lot of things, or not actually follow the rules.
I think no stat under 10 is a weird thing, because regular npcs have a 9 and an 8, and heroic npcs have an 8. It doesn't actually change the tier list though imo, just some classes get worse
I said no more than one stat under 10 before racial mods.
That's since been rejected though.
I was tempted to go with just using the heroic array. I think that would be fair too, but would upset the caster dudes no end I reckon.
Yeah, that is why I am working on a google doc of spell nerfs. It seems to come out that people who "reject" the tier list as being accurate also softban a lot of things, or not actually follow the rules.
I think no stat under 10 is a weird thing, because regular npcs have a 9 and an 8, and heroic npcs have an 8. It doesn't actually change the tier list though imo, just some classes get worse
I said no more than one stat under 10 before racial mods.
That's since been rejected though.
I was tempted to go with just using the heroic array. I think that would be fair too, but would upset the caster dudes no end I reckon.
Honestly, Wrath I think the Heroic array could work, however it would accentuate the caster martial difference due to SAD vs MAD. I also have not myself ever run a game with the heroic array, so I will not judge it, but if I was ever given the rare chance to play and I was informed it would be heroic array, I would politely turn it down due to it being not my cup of tea.
I usually let my payer use either 15 or 20 pb depending on the campaign, 15 for more gritty, 20 for a more heroic feel.
Yeah, that is why I am working on a google doc of spell nerfs. It seems to come out that people who "reject" the tier list as being accurate also softban a lot of things, or not actually follow the rules.
I think no stat under 10 is a weird thing, because regular npcs have a 9 and an 8, and heroic npcs have an 8. It doesn't actually change the tier list though imo, just some classes get worse
I said no more than one stat under 10 before racial mods.
That's since been rejected though.
I was tempted to go with just using the heroic array. I think that would be fair too, but would upset the caster dudes no end I reckon.
The heroic or elite array would probably be fine, actually.
I'm ok with 20 Array, since it will actually give the non-SAD classes some breathing room. And really it's the middle option. (Though I'll need to reallocate my stats, gah.)
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I'm ok with 20 Array, since it will actually give the non-SAD classes some breathing room. And really it's the middle option. (Though I'll need to reallocate my stats, gah.)
Nah, stick with point buy. This is what usually gets done in most games, and is definitely a PFS thing.
Do we have anyone interested in running a fighter through?
Part of this is testing either end of the tier. I'd be keen to see how someone who knows how to run a good fighter gets on.
Also, just running the randomizer to see how it all works.
I'm using the random button at the bottom. However I'm setting it medium sized dungeon.
The randomizer can also set themes for dungeons (like aberration, undead, giant etc).
Are we happy if it turns up themed? or do we want completely random critters too?
Themed seems more realistic, but then it doesn't test a wide set of abilities like non theme seems to?
I think a theme is okay.
Standard PB is good. I think the 20 PB helps martials more then casters.
Level 10 is not bad but many martials jump alot in power at 11. That interative and extra money go a long way. PFS rulings are not bad but crafting can really add to power.
Why can the NPC cleric and wizard not change spells from day to day? If this is the case go with sorc and oracle.
I am going to try a non full caster but I full expect 5th level spells will really tilt things to the full casters.
I'm looking at some sample martial builds because wrath asked about someone putting a fight in, and I agree that the power jump at 11 is huge. But at some point we need to choose the level and stick to it. Although, choosing an odd level does help demonstrate the power gap in prepared vs spontaneous casters as well. So I would be open to a level 6, 11, and 16 challenge. That helps the martials at all three test levels, spontaneous casters at 2, and prepared casters really only get better at 1 of those over the current rules.
I also agree with keeping the crafting rules as originally stated.
I'll run a fighter archer at 6/11/16 under those rules. Otherwise, I'll run a fighter archer at 10/15 under current setup.
I could try building a fighter to see how I do.
While many martials jump in power at 11, full casters jump WAY in power at 11, level 6 spells are bonkers
I'm looking at a mutagen master fighter and he really takes off at 12th level. And then I think about building a 12th level sorcerer....
I'm still gonna run the mutagen master archer at 10/15 even if it does make me sad.
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Let's stick with what I've proposed.
It puts people at the top of the power mark for that range of play. Otherwise it's the bottom of the power mark.
If it works out this could become a 5, 10, 15 and 20 test for all power levels. But that goes beyond what I can commit to, it also goes beyond PFS.
If enough interest is shown, we can run concurrent threads for 5th and 10th level.
Then see after that.
I think that is wise, sir.
So, I will run NPC's for anyone and I also plan to run a fighter.
I think it makes sense for prepared casters to change spells if they have 24 hours advance planning time. I'm willing to put in the time to do that for the NPC's using CRB only spells of my own choice. I would choose spells based on the challenge, and the more we know the better I can choose. If you want to do that Wrath.
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Yeah the prepared NPCs could do that I guess. Especially the clerics. I worry about the wizard getting access to spells he wouldn't have in his spell book though. Not sure its enough to worry about but any ideas would be welcome.
Also, I am a little concerned about metagame knowledge for monsters etc.
In my home game we police ourselves on metagame knowledge a lot. Not sure that's possible in a situation like this.
I'm wondering if reskinning creatures should happen, but ensuring that sill gives the same visual queues the current ones would. It just means using knowledge skills to work out a name of a creature wont tell you everything about it. Or divination for that matter.
Maybe instead of reskinning we could implement a system where those things only give mechanical stuff and creature type, rather than the name. Not sure really, its a bit of a conundrum.
BigD, don't bite off too much mate. If you're gonna run a character through this, running other NPC's will take a ton of time.
If you've got the time though, go for it.