Goblin Squad Member
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Copying over from the Wildstar conversation to not continually sidetrack that one...
My hope is at present the achievements are the bare minimum GW can work in for the MVP. If "land the killing blow" remains the major gate for achievements in areas like Subterfuge, that will most certainly be a grind for me. Why? Because I want to make a character that is not primarily focused on killing stuff--an aristocrat/bard. I want to be the support in the background, the voice rallying my comrades, the scout that brings back information, etc. If I've got to land the killing blow to increase my Arcane and Subterfuge skills/feats, that basically means my concept is in the tank. I may as well sit in town as a Seneschal and forget the rest.
I'm not insisting GW put in alternate achievement routes as MVP, but please, please give us some insight into the long term plans for such. Let us know this is coming at some point. Because without it, PFO will indeed just be a grind by a different name. I signed up for the KS specifically for Highlight #1 - No Grinding when it said "don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline." It does note requiring achievements, and I'm good with that concept, but when the achievement is "farming mobs" it pretty much invalidates the whole concept. I want to explore the world and RP with my friends, and I want that to be as relevant as killing stuff.
We've had some expansion in this area, diversifying Divine achievements for instance to now include killing escalation mobs, but that Cleric still can't get Divine achievements for Healing, or buffing, or using Knowledge: Religion, etc. Adding more stuff to kill doesn't fix the problem. I know the devs have hinted at more options--I'll be placated by a simple "yes, in the future you'll get achievements by doing stuff other than killing."
Tying alternate achievements to escalations is not the complete answer, unless every escalation has non-combat solutions relevant to characters. If the achievement is "burn a holy book" let me, for example, sneak into their camp and steal it (so the Rogue gets some glory). When the escalation quests basically result in "go kill this bunch of stuff, oh and it'll drop this widget you need" it's the same as mob farming.
For this topic, I'd really like to see some brainstorming on ideas for possible Achievements across all character concepts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree. The gating of skill advancement with achievements does seem very grindy from my early alpha play.
A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.
or in this case,
A grind by any other name is still a grind..
I understand the need for gating, but why not have it be really easy to get. Like kill one mob to train the next skill. That way you avoid the problem of just sitting at the trainer and buying skill after skill over a long period of time, but still have to go out and do something.
Money for gear doesn't fall off trees so characters have to go do something to get gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Erian makes a very good point, it would be very beneficial to confirm or deny that the achievements have been thought through and there is a path forward to achieve the cited commitment.
But at the same time it should be also okay, understandable, to not devote too much time to a response until the crisis-crush of Alpha Stress has carried us into EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Absolutely--I don't see this as MVP, and so I hope the conversation can generate some good ideas that GW can integrate into their plans. My biggest "gimme" right now from GW is just a general commitment to the concept or an outline of future plans, then we fine forum folk can hash out options to while away the time.
I'd like to see PVP kills count as a Martial Category as an alternative to killing goblins for Martial points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My favorite so far (and note I've not jumped into the latest Alpha release yet to see if this has changed) is for Social achievements, since my Diplomat is very interested in all things social. And my option for Achievements...Kill Players. I know it will surely expand, but it makes me chuckle.
As an example of an idea in this area, then, I'd very much like to see Bluff be a viable means of solving the example escalation by tricking those rogues out of their book. "Why yes, I am indeed the envoy of the High Potentate and he's requested I gather all copies of this for correction by Razmiran himself." Failure means I'm in the middle of a pack of bad guys now wanting to pound me flat. That would be nerve-wracking, and fun. Success in X number of camps might result in a bonus to future camps seeing through the ruse.
Diplomacy or Intimidation might convince the recruits to quit the field, leaving just the hard core devotees. And the Rangers and Druids might whip out Handle Animal to convince those guard dogs to stop following such abusive masters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see PVP kills count as a Martial Category as an alternative to killing goblins for Martial points.
I'd like to see it depend on the abilities you are using to kill them. Or at least see some appropriate subterfuge and divine achievements that can be earned in PvP such as
"Make X attacks on players from stealth"
"Heal X damage on other players" or "Use X beneficial effects on other players"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd definitely like to see Achievements tied solely to player interaction, as with the healing and buffing above, since that will free players from having to absolutely do the PVE content to advance. This could expand to Social skills going up when Merchants successfully close deals with others, for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I honestly despise anything that's killing blow based, in previous MMOs I've never found that they occur as randomly or evenly as one would expect, even if everyone is dealing the best damage they can to a mob, let alone being more of a supporting character.
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I posted a lot of my concerns about divine achievements in my divine achievements thread, so I'm definitely in support of non-killing ways to again achievements.
The first thing that came to mind are achievements for exploration. Such as:
Explore/visit X number of hexes
Explore/visit X number of hex types (mountains, woodlands, etc.)
Travel X number of miles from home settlement
or something along those lines. Not sure how doable this is or how easy it would be for characters to achieve these, but it's just a starting idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually all, they have talked about this before.
I can't find the quote, but Stephen said that this all was going to change. Essentially, in a party, the top 3 members that generated the most threat towards a Monster, on its death gets a point towards what ever weapon you have equipped.
All spells will generate some threat, while healing and dealing damage will generate quite a bit of threat. Since its based on each individual Monster you kill, it should evenly disperse points.
Perhaps Stephen can come in here and talk a bit more about it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Group credit will certainly be welcome, but again will only get at the combat aspects of the game. Unfortunately, if it is a formula for Most Threat, that could very well mean a support character (like my aforementioned bard) rarely ranks in the top 3 if his focus is on buffing party members and lending Knowledge to boost salvage, so I can see that approach as problematic.
Achievements tied to utilization of the market aspects would definitely be attractive for the merchant players.
I honestly despise anything that's killing blow based, in previous MMOs I've never found that they occur as randomly or evenly as one would expect, even if everyone is dealing the best damage they can to a mob, let alone being more of a supporting character.
yeah...
But again there isn't much meaningful stuff in alpha. cries.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thought must be put into how easy an achievement would be to abuse as well.
If the achievement gate is there to prevent players from instantly gaining levels after being logged out for a long time, avoiding actually playing the game, then the achievements should require some time involved. So says Ryan...
For example, an achievement to hand in 10 shortswords would be bad since another player could just give you 10 shortswords when you log in to use. Requiring a player to craft those 10 shortswords themselves would seem like a better achievement. However all they would have to do is be given the mats and start up their queue. Not much involvement their either.
In the same sense, any achievement that involves only players interacting with other players will be abused. In the case of PvP kills a player just gets a few friends to strip off all their gear and then slaughters them over and over again near a rez point, wracking up easy kills, especially if they have an AoE attack to use.
(This is all for the purpose of Gate Achievements. Any achievement can be made for pure fun that has no impact on the game.)
Requiring a player to craft those 10 shortswords themselves would seem like a better achievement. However all they would have to do is be given the mats and start up their queue. Not much involvement their either.
Well, they'd have to get the mats somewhere. I don't think mat gathering should be a part of crafting. I think you very well should be able to just queue up stuff and get achievements if someone gives you the mats. How else would such a system work? Is that really abuse?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is an idea for making the "kill 'em" achievements more meaningful.
Specific Recipe Requirements
Specific Loot / Material Drops
Titles
Social Clothing Rewards
So here is how it would look:
A Crafter gets his hands on a recipe for a Girdle of Ogre Strength. But he needs specific materials that only Ogres may have. being a crafter, he does not have the martial skills to kill Ogres himself, so he hires a party of adventure / monster slayers for the task.
As the party begins to kill Ogres, they get some of the drops they need, but not enough as Ogre Slayer 1's. As they rise in Ogre Slayer achievements, they get more materials. They finally get all of the basic materials they needed, and along the way they have also received Ogre specific loot drops.
Now they need to achieve Elite Ogre Slayer 2 in order to get a chance at the final, needed material for the crafter's recipe. They now specifically look for Elite Ogres and eventually they get the drop they needed.
They return to the Crafter with his materials, and he can now craft Girdles of Ogre Strength. The adventurer / hunters now have a title of Elite Ogre Slayer and that will permit them to wear the title and a Social Clothing item that denotes their prestigious achievement.
With this system, you are not just going out and killing 500 X with weapon Y. You are going out to kill a specific target, for a purpose beyond just gathering random loot, and your reward is directly tied to the specific task.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is an idea for making the "kill 'em" achievements more meaningful.
Specific Recipe Requirements
Specific Loot / Material Drops
Titles
Social Clothing RewardsSo here is how it would look:
A Crafter gets his hands on a recipe for a Girdle of Ogre Strength. But he needs specific materials that only Ogres may have. being a crafter, he does not have the martial skills to kill Ogres himself, so he hires a party of adventure / monster slayers for the task.
As the party begins to kill Ogres, they get some of the drops they need, but not enough as Ogre Slayer 1's. As they rise in Ogre Slayer achievements, they get more materials. They finally get all of the basic materials they needed, and along the way they have also received Ogre specific loot drops.
Now they need to achieve Elite Ogre Slayer 2 in order to get a chance at the final, needed material for the crafter's recipe. They now specifically look for Elite Ogres and eventually they get the drop they needed.
They return to the Crafter with his materials, and he can now craft Girdles of Ogre Strength. The adventurer / hunters now have a title of Elite Ogre Slayer and that will permit them to wear the title and a Social Clothing item that denotes their prestigious achievement.
With this system, you are not just going out and killing 500 X with weapon Y. You are going out to kill a specific target, for a purpose beyond just gathering random loot, and your reward is directly tied to the specific task.
I like this, though I do hope achievements won't be required to wear higher level gear that isn't social. For example: I am a new player but I have a rich friend that wants to give me a super powerful robe. I'd like to be able to wear that robe without having to get some kind of achievement beforehand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is an idea for making the "kill 'em" achievements more meaningful.
Specific Recipe Requirements
Specific Loot / Material Drops
Titles
Social Clothing RewardsSo here is how it would look:
A Crafter gets his hands on a recipe for a Girdle of Ogre Strength. But he needs specific materials that only Ogres may have. being a crafter, he does not have the martial skills to kill Ogres himself, so he hires a party of adventure / monster slayers for the task.
As the party begins to kill Ogres, they get some of the drops they need, but not enough as Ogre Slayer 1's. As they rise in Ogre Slayer achievements, they get more materials. They finally get all of the basic materials they needed, and along the way they have also received Ogre specific loot drops.
Now they need to achieve Elite Ogre Slayer 2 in order to get a chance at the final, needed material for the crafter's recipe. They now specifically look for Elite Ogres and eventually they get the drop they needed.
They return to the Crafter with his materials, and he can now craft Girdles of Ogre Strength. The adventurer / hunters now have a title of Elite Ogre Slayer and that will permit them to wear the title and a Social Clothing item that denotes their prestigious achievement.
With this system, you are not just going out and killing 500 X with weapon Y. You are going out to kill a specific target, for a purpose beyond just gathering random loot, and your reward is directly tied to the specific task.
I like this, though I do hope achievements won't be required to wear higher level gear that isn't social. For example: I am a new player but I have a rich friend that wants to give me a super powerful robe. I'd like to be able to wear that robe without having to get some kind of achievement beforehand.
They've said you can do this but you won't get the full power out of the robe since it will have keywords you can't make use of until you get more powerful yourself.
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With respect to crafting, the issue was raised of being handed mats to circumnavigate activity in game. What if one component is provided by a trainer NPC on a limited basis, per week say, which is soulbound to the player and used to craft a quest item for achievement purposes. Rift uses such a mechanic for crafting tokens to buy high end recipes. The system would work for those wishing to advance crafting with the flexibility of gathering, buying or being gifted the other mats needed for crafting achievement quests. The achievement point gain rate would be limited by the soulbound item dispersal rate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a bit confused on the above issue with a player being handed materials for crafting to complete achievements--we have that right now by design, as we can get one player that is a hunter/gatherer bringing in resources for another player that is a crafter. Is there something different in the above scenario I'm missing? This is how the game should work, I believe, as it then allows for players that are truly "city folk" to do their own thing without having to also go out and kill stuff. The town tailor likely wouldn't go out slaying goblins...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is an idea for making the "kill 'em" achievements more meaningful.
...
With this system, you are not just going out and killing 500 X with weapon Y. You are going out to kill a specific target, for a purpose beyond just gathering random loot, and your reward is directly tied to the specific task.
I very much like the suggestion of specific uncommon and rare drops from the appropriate mob type linked to specific mob type slaying. It is only reasonable that a crafted product attributed to Ogres should require something associated only with ogres. Similarly a Ring of Regeneration might tie to types of mob that regenerate (I'm thinking trolls but I don't know off hand if trolls regenerate in Golarion).
