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I don't know if this has already been addressed but I'd like either a FAQ or clarification if possible.
Slashing grace has been clarified by the masses to only include weapons in the one-hand category due to how it is written. I'd love to find out if the developers meant for it to be this way or if they meant any weapon wielded in one hand.
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It pretty much didn't change since the revised playtest, so nobody is wondering about the devs intent.
In the revised playtest, it didn't have dexterity to damage. It was originally a way to use non-swashbuckler weapons as a swashbuckler but people weren't using it enough. When they revised it, they also rephrased it so it required a one-handed slashing weapon.
The playtest text said, "When wielding your chosen weapon one handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's precise strike). The weapon must be one for your size."
FAQ'd. Even if they don't change it, I will houserule it for my games.
I will stick with the idea that is was meant to be for 1 handed weapons only, and that it isn't for light ones.
The devs are just not really into giving the players an TWF friendly way to get dex to damage. Dervish dance and Fencing Grace both only work for specific 1 handed weapons (and devish dance was worded to try to forbid TWF...I try not to ask if it works ever since the argument on the definition of 'punch')
And there is the fact that the item option, agile weapons, become rather prohibitively expensive when you factor in the fact that there are 2 of them.
I will stick with the idea that is was meant to be for 1 handed weapons only, and that it isn't for light ones.
The devs are just not really into giving the players an TWF friendly way to get dex to damage. Dervish dance and Fencing Grace both only work for specific 1 handed weapons (and devish dance was worded to try to forbid TWF...I try not to ask if it works ever since the argument on the definition of 'punch')
And there is the fact that the item option, agile weapons, become rather prohibitively expensive when you factor in the fact that there are 2 of them.
If they want to stop TWF use all they have to do is say that no weapon can be used in the offhand.
That way the list of possible weapons opens up.
I will stick with the idea that is was meant to be for 1 handed weapons only, and that it isn't for light ones.
The devs are just not really into giving the players an TWF friendly way to get dex to damage. Dervish dance and Fencing Grace both only work for specific 1 handed weapons (and devish dance was worded to try to forbid TWF...I try not to ask if it works ever since the argument on the definition of 'punch')
And there is the fact that the item option, agile weapons, become rather prohibitively expensive when you factor in the fact that there are 2 of them.
If they want to stop TWF use all they have to do is say that no weapon can be used in the offhand.
That way the list of possible weapons opens up.
As I mentioned, I have seen someone try to define the word 'punch' in the Pummeling Style feat as 'something you do with a spear'.
And more relavently, I have seen people try to exploit the language about offhands in Dervish Dance to allow for unarmed strikes, and even try to get the effect of dex to damage to apply to those too.
Not sure about how the validity of those arguments turned out (I tend to zone out such madness...for my own health), but they are there. Making everything about onehanded weapons means that that, yes, you could TWF...but you would not have a fun time with that -4 to hit.
Anyway, the problems where you can't get dex to damage for light weapons is not that bad if we are talking about swashbucklers (you know, the class that this feat was made for). They can just buy agile weapons, since the restrictions on their best abilities that prevents TWF means they only need 1 weapon. A much more manageable cost, and it is comparable to the keen/improved critical debate of weapon property vs. feat.
In fact, looking at it, I would argue that the only reason slashing only gives dex to damage because you can't typically get agile on a 1 handed weapon. Without that, then taking this feat would be pointless, since light weapons would be unilaterally better for swashbucklers.
The feat is not just for swashbucklers though. Otherwise they could have required panche as a prereq. That class just gets the most from it, and the problem with the feat is one of verisimilitude, and there is no reason for it to not include light weapons from a point of balance.
The feat is not just for swashbucklers though. Otherwise they could have required panche as a prereq. That class just gets the most from it, and the problem with the feat is one of verisimilitude, and there is no reason for it to not include light weapons from a point of balance.
Yes, it is not restricted. Still, it evolved from a feat that was paired with the class in the playtest, and its original effects were there only to do things like allow swashbucklers to use longswords.
So while yes, it is not restricted. But at the same time its history is heavily entrenched with the swashbuckler. As such, the design decisions and expected style is heavily influenced by that.
And while I agree that the current form lacks verisimilitude... I would imagine that it would be hard to word successfully (ie- no 1,000 post threads arguing every single word) if they were to maintain the stance that against combining TWF and dex to damage.
With the option to just grab an agile weapon (and to rely upon things like power attack and precise strike for decent damage until then), then there is little reason for them to fret over it. Sure, TWF players still has problems with it...but again, the feat is unofficially tied with how the swashbuckler does things, so I can understand why they didn't mess with the issue any further.
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I will stick with the idea that is was meant to be for 1 handed weapons only, and that it isn't for light ones.
The devs are just not really into giving the players an TWF friendly way to get dex to damage. Dervish dance and Fencing Grace both only work for specific 1 handed weapons (and devish dance was worded to try to forbid TWF...I try not to ask if it works ever since the argument on the definition of 'punch')
And there is the fact that the item option, agile weapons, become rather prohibitively expensive when you factor in the fact that there are 2 of them.
And yet, now you can dual-wield sawtooth sabres using Slashing Grace to two-weapon fight.
The feat is not just for swashbucklers though. Otherwise they could have required panche as a prereq. That class just gets the most from it, and the problem with the feat is one of verisimilitude, and there is no reason for it to not include light weapons from a point of balance.Yes, it is not restricted. Still, it evolved from a feat that was paired with the class in the playtest, and its original effects were there only to do things like allow swashbucklers to use longswords.
So while yes, it is not restricted. But at the same time its history is heavily entrenched with the swashbuckler. As such, the design decisions and expected style is heavily influenced by that.
And while I agree that the current form lacks verisimilitude... I would imagine that it would be hard to word successfully (ie- no 1,000 post threads arguing every single word) if they were to maintain the stance that against combining TWF and dex to damage.
With the option to just grab an agile weapon (and to rely upon things like power attack and precise strike for decent damage until then), then there is little reason for them to fret over it. Sure, TWF players still has problems with it...but again, the feat is unofficially tied with how the swashbuckler does things, so I can understand why they didn't mess with the issue any further.
People that are going to try to game the system and ignore common sense will do so anyway. No wording will prevent that. "This feat can not be used while TWF'ing" pretty much kills that, IF that was the intent, which I don't think it is.
Because right now it can be used while TWF'ing if someone takes exotic weapon prof(sawtooth sabres).
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A battleaxe or bastard sword being more finessaable than a Dagger is silly.
They are not more finessable. You take weapon finesse and get to use dex to attack with daggers. That's not possible with the other two.
But if you put more work into it you can get dex to damage with those weapons on top of dex to attack. And that is not so much silly because in reality when you want to use your dexterity or agility to inflict more damage with a melee weapon you do that by using the weapon's own weight and momentum. The dagger has neglectable weight and momentum and because of that it is hard to deal more damage with it via dex.
Daggers are more about where do you hit and how deep can you push it in (which needs strength).
What would make sense is to give every weapon a minimum strength to use it with dex to damage. But that would make it complicated and MAD.
TL;DR You can make forceful chops with an axe or a sword or you can whirl it gracefully. Both ways increase the impact. Way two is impossible with a dagger.
Just wanted to let you know that I hit the FAQ button, but also flagged the thread for being in the wrong forum - this strikes me as a Rules Questions topic more than a general discussion topic. You're also more likely to get more FAQ hits in the RQ forum.
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It was quite obviously done intentionally - why else word it that way? It was to make it difficult to get dex to damamge with both hands. It's still possible (sawtoothed sabre) but requires you to burn another feat.
Why? Because it's kinda OP.
And before someone brings up agile - it's better than agile because agile only gives 1/2 dex to damage for off-hand weapons.
You think Slashing Grace gives you full dexterity modifier to damage on off-hand attacks?
That's a take on the feat I haven't heard before - would you care to elaborate? :)
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You think Slashing Grace gives you full dexterity modifier to damage on off-hand attacks?
That's a take on the feat I haven't heard before - would you care to elaborate? :)
Not on its own - no. But Slashing Grace would work with Double Slice where Agile doesn't. If you've got a dex of 20+ and slashing grace, double slice would be well worth it.
Not on its own - no. But Slashing Grace would work with Double Slice where Agile doesn't. If you've got a dex of 20+ and slashing grace, double slice would be well worth it.You think Slashing Grace gives you full dexterity modifier to damage on off-hand attacks?
That's a take on the feat I haven't heard before - would you care to elaborate? :)
I see. I can't say I agree with that rules interpretation, but thank you for clarifying your position for me. :)
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I see. I can't say I agree with that rules interpretation, but thank you for clarifying your position for me. :)Not on its own - no. But Slashing Grace would work with Double Slice where Agile doesn't. If you've got a dex of 20+ and slashing grace, double slice would be well worth it.You think Slashing Grace gives you full dexterity modifier to damage on off-hand attacks?
That's a take on the feat I haven't heard before - would you care to elaborate? :)
Why wouldn't it work? Slashing Grace it lets you "add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage", meaning that Dex takes the place of Strength.
Double Slice's benefit is "Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.".
Think of double slice's effect coming first, making it so that you use your full strength bonus to damage for your off-hand weapon. Then slashing grace lets you replace that with dex.
If it didn't work that way - then you'd have to read the 'dex modifier' for slashing grace as seperate from normal strength rules, and you'd get the full bonus off-hand without double slice. (I'd disagree with that ruling.)
Indeed - your dex being used as if it were strength for damage is implied in the slashing grace when it says you must wield the weapon one-handed. This implies that if that wording weren't there, you could get 1.5x damage wielding it two-handed. With would mean that the dex is treated as strength for damage in every way. (maybe a bit of a stretch - but that's just my secondary argument anyway)
I really don't want to sidetrack this thread with that debate, which is why I'm not getting into the debate - suffice to say that we read these rules differently. :)
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I really don't want to sidetrack this thread with that debate, which is why I'm not getting into the debate - suffice to say that we read these rules differently. :)
Fair enough.
I'm not one to take such discussions personally. I just find the debate itself interesting if done civilly.
Besides - I need to convince you of how I'm right and you're wrong! (insert sarcasm in there as it sometimes doesn't translate to text)
I really don't want to sidetrack this thread with that debate, which is why I'm not getting into the debate - suffice to say that we read these rules differently. :)Fair enough.
I'm not one to take such discussions personally. I just find the debate itself interesting if done civilly.
Besides - I need to convince you of how I'm right and you're wrong! (insert sarcasm in there as it sometimes doesn't translate to text)
Oh, I absolutely agree - I find a good rules debate very stimulating! :)
However I figured this wasn't really the place to have it, since this is not a thread debating the interaction between *dex to damage* effects and Double Slice.
A battleaxe or bastard sword being more finessaable than a Dagger is silly.They are not more finessable. You take weapon finesse and get to use dex to attack with daggers. That's not possible with the other two.
But if you put more work into it you can get dex to damage with those weapons on top of dex to attack. And that is not so much silly because in reality when you want to use your dexterity or agility to inflict more damage with a melee weapon you do that by using the weapon's own weight and momentum. The dagger has neglectable weight and momentum and because of that it is hard to deal more damage with it via dex.
Daggers are more about where do you hit and how deep can you push it in (which needs strength).What would make sense is to give every weapon a minimum strength to use it with dex to damage. But that would make it complicated and MAD.
TL;DR You can make forceful chops with an axe or a sword or you can whirl it gracefully. Both ways increase the impact. Way two is impossible with a dagger.
I... uh... Are you honestly trying to justify this with IRL logic? You've obviously never seen someone fight with a dagger, is all I can say.
Perhaps a better example with more IRL comparability would be helpful: are you trying to tell me that a rapier (another non-slashing grace weapon if you aren't a swashbuckler) is a weapon that benefits more from your strength than agility? Compared to a Battleaxe?
Seriously?
No, I did not say that a rapier benefits more from strength. What I said was that an axe is better for landing hard hits with low strength.
At some carnivals there is something called "Hau den Lukas" in german. I think it is High Striker in English. If you have the right technique you can be good at that without being very strong. But if you tried it with a light weapon (light as opposed to heavy) the stronger guy would surely win. Because with lighter weapons it is mainly the strength that creates the impact.
You've obviously never seen someone fight with a dagger, is all I can say.
I have seen people try to kill me with a knife. Or with a broken bottle. I have been doing martial arts, I have been doing sabre fencing for some time. And now I'm in an reenactment club that is closely working together (because of mixed members) with a club doing full contact swordsmanship duels according to the HMBIA (historical medieval battles international association). I own a sword meant for fighting and two suits of armor, one would be light, the other medium for PF. So I have some first- and a lot of secondhand knowledge when it comes to fighting techniques.
I think I could make my point clearer if I were a native speaker.
No, I did not say that a rapier benefits more from strength. What I said was that an axe is better for landing hard hits with low strength.
The same analogy applies to the rapier. You can't have your cake and eat it here.
The way the feat works, a fast, weak character who can only just lift his axe can do substantial damage whilst the same character more than capable of twirling about a rapier can barely scratch his opponent. This does not make logical sense. It's not about the innate weight or cutting power of the weapon: that is factored into the base damage die, not the bonus from strength. For another counter example, the same character can use a whip to do substantial DEX based damage, which has nothing to do with balancing weight.
As for specifically the notion of strength on hits: of course being stronger is going to make any weapon hit harder and give you an advantage. The point of DEX to damage is that second part you mentioned: striking in the right spot. This is what fencing is about almost in entirety and is a big part of a lot of other swordfighting styles such as Kendo.
IRL the situation isn't really comparable because most factors aren't isolated. A stronger opponent, generally, is also faster in action IRL, not slower. This is due to the quicker and more numerous nerve efferents that come from the training necessary to build that strength. DnD doesn't model this at all and you shouldn't try to get too technical here: ultimately DnD just needs to model a fantasy-book or movie style 'common sense', which it is failing to do here.
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I see. I can't say I agree with that rules interpretation, but thank you for clarifying your position for me. :)Not on its own - no. But Slashing Grace would work with Double Slice where Agile doesn't. If you've got a dex of 20+ and slashing grace, double slice would be well worth it.You think Slashing Grace gives you full dexterity modifier to damage on off-hand attacks?
That's a take on the feat I haven't heard before - would you care to elaborate? :)
Slashing Grace works one of two ways.
1. Rules specifying the users strength bonus now apply to the users dexterity bonus when used for damage. (Dragon Slice required for full benefit.)
2. Rules specifying strength bonus do not apply to the users dexterity bonus when used for damage. (Full benefit without Dragon Slice.)
Selectively applying only rules with a negative impact fails both interpretations.
If it worked on light weapons, it would work on claws. That could get quite insane.
+1 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
Slashing Grace works one of two ways.
1. Rules specifying the users strength bonus now apply to the users dexterity bonus when used for damage. (Dragon Slice required for full benefit.)
2. Rules specifying strength bonus do not apply to the users dexterity bonus when used for damage. (Full benefit without Dragon Slice.)
My main issue with that interpretation was that Slashing Grace would work, but Agile would not - in my opinion either they both should work, or neither should work.
Finally, there is a third option that I believe you missed.
All that said, please either start a new thread or send me a PM if you want to debate this further, like I said earlier I'd rather not sidetrack this thread with a debate on how Double Slice works with dex-to-damage. =)
Oh, and while we're on the topic - it's Double Slice, not Dragon Slice. :)
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I don't know if this has already been addressed but I'd like either a FAQ or clarification if possible.
Slashing grace has been clarified by the masses to only include weapons in the one-hand category due to how it is written. I'd love to find out if the developers meant for it to be this way or if they meant any weapon wielded in one hand.
Just want to point out that there is one example where slashing grace affects a specific light one-handed weapon as well as a specific one-handed melee weapon. This leads me to believe that an individual can select a slashing light one-handed Light Melee weapon or a slashing One-Handed Melee weapon
Add 1/4 to the swashbuckler’s effective class level to determine the extra damage she deals because of the precise strike deed when wielding a light pick or a heavy pick. If the swashbuckler has the Slashing Grace feat or another similar effect, she can treat the battleaxe or handaxe as a one-handed piercing melee weapon, and she gains this benefit when wielding the appropriate weapon for the feat as well.
Was the errata ever posted? I can't find it, but in the first post, right after you see how many people hit the FAQ button, it was says the question was answered in the errata.
Well it being answered in the Errata doesn't mean that we have that errata it's answered in. as far as I know we don't have the Errata yet.
The ACG errata isn't out yet, but it's expected to release in the next nine days. It makes sense that the rules team would flag this as answered in errata rather than issue an unnecessary FAQ.