The unholy text of Urgathoa Serving Your Hunger is partially a cookbook. A people cookbook.One of the CS's primary deities is all about cooking people, on top of the cosmic insanity deity and the make babies with all things deity previously mentioned.Cooking people? Are you referring to Gyronna (not one of the main 20), or another one?
I'm assuming that the other two are Zon-Kuthon and Lamashtu, although one could substitute the entire Cthulhu mythos for Zon-Kuthon when it comes to cosmic insanity.
That's a misconception that started with an incorrect translation and spread by intolerant enemies of the church
Serving Your Hunger is a cookbook for people.
It's about bringing people together
** spoiler omitted **
Comes with its own ketchup!
Now, now... that wasn't Droogami's corpse. It was just his fur. He might still be alive. Kept painfully so, even after he was skinned. The artwork doesn't make that part clear.The artwork for Demons Revisited: every chapter title page has one of the iconics about to be killed by a demon, in particularly nasty ways. The two I find most chilling are...
Lirianne, possessed by a shadow demon, firing her pistol into Seelah's head, blowing out her friend's brains.
A glabrezu gleefully showing the corpse of Droogami to a caged and despondent Lini.
...And now that painting is even more chilling...
How about The Loving Place on the planet Aucturn? And you thought being eaten alive was the worst thing that could happen to you on that planet...
Also, I'm not seeing anyone mentioning Lamashtu's Flower, the orgy and procreation temple of Lamashtu that likes to...bring in new folk.Orgies are'nt evil, it just happened to be an orgy of evil crazy people.
The evil part is the forceful new recruiting. Also, probably, giving birth to horrid monstrocities part.
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The evil part is the forceful new recruiting. Also, probably, giving birth to horrid monstrocities part.Also, I'm not seeing anyone mentioning Lamashtu's Flower, the orgy and procreation temple of Lamashtu that likes to...bring in new folk.Orgies are'nt evil, it just happened to be an orgy of evil crazy people.
Oh, I missed the forceful part, I thought it was consensual bat-shit crazy.
Also, I'm not seeing anyone mentioning Lamashtu's Flower, the orgy and procreation temple of Lamashtu that likes to...bring in new folk.
In my defense, I fully expected a polite talking to after turning that in :)
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If Haddaway performed at Lamashtu's Flower, then "What is Love" would have had a very different sentiment to it.
The entire concept of Irrisen is rather dark as well. Not only are people repressed, they are done so by monsters and descendants of an evil powerful being from another world.
Dead peasants are cooked to make candles and ground to bone meal.
The captain of the city guard of Whitethrone is a white dragon who has a Witch employed to cook children for him.
If you break one of the skulls used for cobbling in Whitethrone, you will replace it.
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The entire concept of Irrisen is rather dark as well. Not only are people repressed, they are done so by monsters and descendants of an evil powerful being from another world.
Dead peasants are cooked to make candles and ground to bone meal.
The captain of the city guard of Whitethrone is a white dragon who has a Witch employed to cook children for him.
If you break one of the skulls used for cobbling in Whitethrone, you will replace it.
Don't forget the children used to make the Soulbound Dolls.
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Presenting the players with more hard choices would be nice.
Like in Wasteland 2 for example.Also what´s totally missing is something like Menzoberanzan and Dark Sun flavor- and crunchwise. Places where normal life is just harder, even for heroes.
As well as a good and an evil matriarchy!
Irrisen is pretty much the evil matriarchy and a good Menzoberranzen stand in. All the rulers are female descendants of the current and former queens and the vast majority are evil spellcasters.
Lots of countries are run by queens, though not strictly matriarchies. The crusader state of Mendev and the evil empire of Cheliax come to mind.
Presenting the players with more hard choices would be nice.
Like in Wasteland 2 for example.Also what´s totally missing is something like Menzoberanzan and Dark Sun flavor- and crunchwise. Places where normal life is just harder, even for heroes.
As well as a good and an evil matriarchy!
Irrisen is pretty much the evil matriarchy and a good Menzoberranzen stand in. All the rulers are female descendants of the current and former queens and the vast majority are evil spellcasters.
Lots of countries are run by queens, though not strictly matriarchies. The crusader state of Mendev and the evil empire of Cheliax come to mind.
Ha that´s right! I always forget about that one. Didn´t play much things there yet.
Also what´s totally missing is something like Menzoberanzan and Dark Sun flavor- and crunchwise. Places where normal life is just harder, even for heroes.Irrisen is pretty much the evil matriarchy and a good Menzoberranzen stand in. All the rulers are female descendants of the current and former queens and the vast majority are evil spellcasters.
Irrisen is cool, but you guys know there is actually a drow city in the Darklands, right?
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Irrisen is cool, but you guys know there is actually a drow city in the Darklands, right?Also what´s totally missing is something like Menzoberanzan and Dark Sun flavor- and crunchwise. Places where normal life is just harder, even for heroes.Irrisen is pretty much the evil matriarchy and a good Menzoberranzen stand in. All the rulers are female descendants of the current and former queens and the vast majority are evil spellcasters.
Nuh-uh!
I have the theory Zon-Kuthon wasn't tortured by an entity of Lovecrafnian inspiration but by the Aztec deities of death, like Acolnahuácatl.
Perhaps the goddess Coatlicue wanted Shellyn for some unfathomable reason and Dou-Brhal offered himself as a sacrifice instead of letting the evil Aztec deities take her sister.
Yeah I expect Zon-Kuthon isn't actually linked directly to any figure from the Lovecraft Mythos, but probably some other sort of cosmic horror separate from Lovecraft stuff AND separate from something like the Dominion of the Black
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I think good ol' Zon-zon was possessed by the Leviathan
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I think good ol' Zon-zon was possessed by the Leviathan
Yeah, he's much more Hellraiser than Mythos.
The Mythos influence is much less direct, in that Dou-Bral ventured out into places where man (or gods) were not meant to go, and encountered something that was far beyond him.
Exactly. The inspiration seems all Barker, not Lovecraft at all.
I mean... Zon-Kuthon is the leader of the cenobites kytons, and lives on the Plane of Shadow.
The systematic murder of infant girls by their mother, in order for her to monopolize her male children's sexual desires?
What was that in - The Rise of the Runelords Hook Mountain Massacre?
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Irrisen is cool, but you guys know there is actually a drow city in the Darklands, right?Also what´s totally missing is something like Menzoberanzan and Dark Sun flavor- and crunchwise. Places where normal life is just harder, even for heroes.Irrisen is pretty much the evil matriarchy and a good Menzoberranzen stand in. All the rulers are female descendants of the current and former queens and the vast majority are evil spellcasters.
Drow are just a myth. Everybody knows that.
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Seriously, while yes the society is more kid friendly, there should be some more dark stuff. If you are going to build a world, you cannot have the good without the bad. Its simply how life goes, no amount of magic or divine beings can fix that. I would also like a few archetypes that are a bit more disturbing.
You'll notice Paizo really hasn't trod down that particular path since.The systematic murder of infant girls by their mother, in order for her to monopolize her male children's sexual desires?Dustin: ugh, thanks.
Shin: beside the slaughter of ogres, what in t hat mod says "evil" to you?Paizo caught a fair amount of flak for it at the time, too.
-Skeld
No need to, but you'll remember some similar disturbing insinuations involving children in Reign of Winter.
For the record, I think thats fine - children have always figured prominently in contemporary horror, from Grim's Fairy Tales to The Shining to the various Paranormal Activity films.
Hook Mountain is indeed "the line." And it served another purpose... it was us no longer being under the aegis of WotC, and I wanted to deliberately step out of the "safety net" that was implied to be in place when we were doing Dragon and Dungeon. Since then, we actually have approached that line several more times, particularly in books like Demons Revisited or the Books of the Damned, but never to the extent that we did with Hook Mountain... or with the suddenness. I feel that we'v established that, on the whole, Golarion is a step "darker" and more prone to mature content than D&D's various settings are. That's by design.
We may go further than that line in the future if the storyline and all that suggests it.
Interesting. But didn't Dungeon magazine once have an adult adventure in it though? I can't remember its name...
Interesting. But didn't Dungeon magazine once have an adult adventure in it though? I can't remember its name...Hook Mountain is indeed "the line." And it served another purpose... it was us no longer being under the aegis of WotC, and I wanted to deliberately step out of the "safety net" that was implied to be in place when we were doing Dragon and Dungeon. Since then, we actually have approached that line several more times, particularly in books like Demons Revisited or the Books of the Damned, but never to the extent that we did with Hook Mountain... or with the suddenness. I feel that we'v established that, on the whole, Golarion is a step "darker" and more prone to mature content than D&D's various settings are. That's by design.
We may go further than that line in the future if the storyline and all that suggests it.
Dungeon #95 had a special Book of Vile Darkness adventure sealed off in it with a mature content warning. It was written by James Jacobs.
The 2002 October issue of Dragon, #300, had a similar sealed off BoVD section with a mature content warning.
Creative Director
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Interesting. But didn't Dungeon magazine once have an adult adventure in it though? I can't remember its name...Hook Mountain is indeed "the line." And it served another purpose... it was us no longer being under the aegis of WotC, and I wanted to deliberately step out of the "safety net" that was implied to be in place when we were doing Dragon and Dungeon. Since then, we actually have approached that line several more times, particularly in books like Demons Revisited or the Books of the Damned, but never to the extent that we did with Hook Mountain... or with the suddenness. I feel that we'v established that, on the whole, Golarion is a step "darker" and more prone to mature content than D&D's various settings are. That's by design.
We may go further than that line in the future if the storyline and all that suggests it.
Dungeon #95 had a special Book of Vile Darkness adventure sealed off in it with a mature content warning. It was written by James Jacobs.
The 2002 October issue of Dragon, #300, had a similar sealed off BoVD section with a mature content warning.
Half of that sealed section of Dragon was also written by me, as it turned out. And the fact that we had to seal that section is the point—we wouldn't have had to seal it in a Pathfinder book. Although... the idea of a "sealed section" was more marketing than anything else...
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I am think the various lists of demigod outsiders, and the lists of their areas of concernInside back cover of Book of the Damned III: Horsemen of the Apocalypse...
Harbinger Daemon Folca
Areas of Concern: Abduction, strangers, sweets.
Domains: Charm, Evil, Travel, Trickery.
Favored Weapon: Net
*shudder*
In the same book, on page 39, also note the spell parasitic soul.
*shudder*
Ohh I'm happy to see someone else finally noticing this guy. His title is The Gaunt Stranger.
What makes it worse is that he MIGHT NOT be the worst of the Daemon Harbingers. Trust me there are some truly awful things to worship on that list and it makes them the perfect fodder for evil cults for adventurers. They are still have what might be the largest list of gods that an might prompt a paladin antipaladin team up alone.
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Take a look at book 4 of the Carrion Crown AP. It will make you very happy, as it did for me.I would like to see more dark themes in Pathfinder, like Lovecraftain horror and madness. I realize that not everyone wants that but it would be nice if Paizo made a book or dealing with some of the darker aspect of the world.
Yes I know I could make it up on my own but sometimes I just want a dark game and not have to create everything from the ground up.
If you are willing to go 3rd party legendary games did a really dope supplement for CC that includes madness rules for Pathfinder that really work well with the system, mythos tomes & spells, and the mythos subtype. I use it in my home game and it's been wonderful watching my players juggle the risk of near permanent madness with the allure of incredible power.
*Sniff*
It brings a little tear of joy to my evil eyes every time I see a player lose a limb and they have to risk a trip to the alchemist's operating table and have their mind, body, and souls warped and violated in exchange for returning their limb to full function while the alchemist resists the urge to gut them and understand the odd voices in his head telling him of the truths hidden in their entrails.
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What isn't clear to me is would you roleplay any of this stuff? Like take a druid's animal companion and skin it and have an NPC wave the skin in the PC's face? Or force one PC to blow another PC's brains out?
I just can't see inflicting anything remotely like child abuse or rape in game through NPCs. I mean, everyone in real life has scars and I wouldn't want to drag someone's real life traumas into the light while roleplaying and gaming (which to me should be fun, challenging, exciting, interesting, and can be for brief laughter filled moments even a bit silly/childish). Kid abuse especially but also rape and other vile acts.
That doesn't sound like fun to me. I was a charter subscriber but the Hook Mountain adventure turned me off enough that I cancelled my subscription. I hopped back into PF once things dialed back again and I am glad to say I've missed most of the worst of the vileness discussed in this thread.
However, I'm glad lots of other people who like this stuff can get it from it Paizo if that is your thing. But I honestly am curious how you use the stuff in your games. Wait, maybe I don't want to know. Never mind.
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What isn't clear to me is would you roleplay any of this stuff? Like take a druid's animal companion and skin it and have an NPC wave the skin in the PC's face? Or force one PC to blow another PC's brains out?
I just can't see inflicting anything remotely like child abuse or rape in game through NPCs. I mean, everyone in real life has scars and I wouldn't want to drag someone's real life traumas into the light while roleplaying and gaming (which to me should be fun, challenging, exciting, interesting, and can be for brief laughter filled moments even a bit silly/childish). Kid abuse especially but also rape and other vile acts.
That doesn't sound like fun to me. I was a charter subscriber but the Hook Mountain adventure turned me off enough that I cancelled my subscription. I hopped back into PF once things dialed back again and I am glad to say I've missed most of the worst of the vileness discussed in this thread.
However, I'm glad lots of other people who like this stuff can get it from it Paizo if that is your thing. But I honestly am curious how you use the stuff in your games. Wait, maybe I don't want to know. Never mind.
I think you might fundamentally misunderstand the allure here: these are seriously depraved evils and you have an opportunity to do something about it. My biggest problem is that a lot of the villains in modules are mustache-twirling campy. Others are mindless, or so alien that they are not understandable. Finally, some of them have motives that are so relatable you might find yourself rooting for them. While each of these villains are fun to defeat in their own right; truly vile villains are, by far, the sweetest to take down.
And I love to have them taken down in fiction, as I'd love to see the same in reality.
All I can say is that when I ran a party through Hook Mountain Massacre, there was a palpable sense of joy from the players when the PCs burned down the Graul Family's house and barn.
Having really evil things as challenges to the players makes for a bigger sense of achievement when the players defeat them.
But seriously, have you read the description of the Lamashtu Demon Mother's Mask?
I'd point those looking for depraved darkness to the PF module Broken Chains . There's some seriously disturbing stuff in there (somewhat along the lines of Hook Mountain massacre levels of depravity but with different subjects).
For a more philosophical, subtle take on darkness, I'd point people to the early 3.5 module S1, Clash of the Kinslayers
Spoilers follow
Clash of the Kinslayers is subtle in its darkness because it explores how even the best, most well-intentioned of us (that is, the dwarven god Torag) may from time to time do possibly very horrible things (that is, laying waste to an entire city, dominated by sinful/wicked people but also having a few innocent downtrodden beneath them.) Although controversial because if its seeming OOCness (in regard to good vs. evil actions), I like it because it represents a blemish on a paragon of good's record. Although I've heard this depiction of Torag is entirely due to miscommunications between the staff and the earliness of it in Golarion's development history, I find it in keeping with two concepts
1)the ancient/medieval wrathfulness of justice and good
2)the fallibility of deities in a polytheistic world
3)the differences of what a god might see as just vs. the differences in what mortals might see as just (the god being very detached from mortal reality vs. the mortal's direct connection to it)
I like this module because it representation of assumptions we (or at least, many of us) taken as a given. Nowhere else have I seen divine wrath questioned in an rpg product, and relatively rarely do I see good(ish), well-intentioned people motivated to do very questionable acts because of emotional turmoil or desperation.
So in a lot of ways, Clash of the Kinslayers to me comes across as dark in different ways from the others because it's not just objectively horrible people doing horrible things. It doesn't beat you over the head with the darkness or how one should exactly react to it.
But I honestly am curious how you use the stuff in your games. Wait, maybe I don't want to know. Never mind.
With great care and not too often that it becomes desensitizing. Personally knowing what will upset the players enough for tension but not enough to make anyone upset.
I've found that done right the players remember the villains and seem to get an extra rush of heroism from defeating something so vile.Also, it's what you as a DM are comfortable with. I had one especially horrible werewolf torment a group from level 5-16. They really enjoyed the character and finally defeating him. Which made me proud but at the same time I don't think I have it in me to play a monster like that again for a while.
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Honestly, looking at the Azlanti and the Aboleth, pretty much anything in Pathfinder is dark. Inhuman aberrants with a perhaps billions of years old intelligence with plans that may have no time horizon that can be understood by mortals are right there at the bottom of everything. And there are things that might be beneath them...
The most inhuman things in the Pathfinder universe appear to have created or at least civilized the humans.
so, from the start, we are at a really bizarre and crazy dark place.
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Honestly, looking at the Azlanti and the Aboleth, pretty much anything in Pathfinder is dark. Inhuman aberrants with a perhaps billions of years old intelligence with plans that may have no time horizon that can be understood by mortals are right there at the bottom of everything. And there are things that might be beneath them...
The most inhuman things in the Pathfinder universe appear to have created or at least civilized the humans.
so, from the start, we are at a really bizarre and crazy dark place.
Yeah, some secrets are better not delved. That said, if you wanted to avoid direct Aboleth machinations, you can always go to one of the other planets.
Not Aucturn though. That's not an improvement.
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Honestly, looking at the Azlanti and the Aboleth, pretty much anything in Pathfinder is dark. Inhuman aberrants with a perhaps billions of years old intelligence with plans that may have no time horizon that can be understood by mortals are right there at the bottom of everything. And there are things that might be beneath them...
The most inhuman things in the Pathfinder universe appear to have created or at least civilized the humans.
so, from the start, we are at a really bizarre and crazy dark place.
Yeah, some secrets are better not delved. That said, if you wanted to avoid direct Aboleth machinations, you can always go to one of the other planets.
Not Aucturn though. That's not an improvement.
can you avoid the aboleth just by going to another planet?
after all, if they really threw down the starstone....
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I would love to see more things centered on Zon-Kuthon, the Kytons, and Lamashtu. Something that goes into much, much darker and adult areas than has been done so far.
Evil comes in many forms in Pathfinder. Note spoilers follow!
For example, in the first Kingmaker AP, it is heavily implied that the bandits would have assaulted Oleg's wife and cut off his hand, had Svetlana not given them her wedding ring and whatever valuables lay around. That's pretty dark right there. The Stag Lord was abused by his father for years until he murdered his father in revenge. Or the giant haunted house of misogyny in the Skinsaw Murders, the 2nd adventure path of Rise of the Runelords. 3 generations of the same family cursed because the 1st of their line wanted to become a lich. The last one's wife lives on as a revenant trapped until the PCs let her out. Just about every module of Carrion Crown, especially the women given to the fish folk to breed new replacements while the village gains powerful fishing rights and increases the powers of the cultists of Dagon. In Irrisen the witches capture children and bind their souls to marionette dolls controlling sentry huts, and also grind their bones to power in order to make bread, since raising grain in an eternal winter requires large greenhouses or massive imports of food. Slavery is legal in over half the states of Avistan, and Varisia has at least two towns run by gypsy Mafiosos. And in all of these situations, the players are offered the chance to right wrongs. Or create new ones. What I like most about Golarion is that evil has reasons for being evil.