Theres a few more spells that help with that, including level 1's(Undetectable Alignment lasts 24 hours)
I always use Detect spells as another sense, using either Spellcraft, Perception, or Use Magic Device, whichever the caster prefers.
Nope. The spell does what it is supposed to do, and most games don't have their bosses meeting the PC's before it is time to fight. There is also no crime against being evil. However if he intended to be in public there are ways to hide the alignment. As for magic items detect magic only says that the item is magical, and it is not like magic items are rare if you run standard pathfinder so I see no need to hide that at all.
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It takes rounds to determine these things, requires concentration, and is only a 60ft Cone.
Detect spells have limits, that, for some reason, DMs often overlook, and spoil their own fun.
I have had to remind, and remind, and remind, and remind, many a player, and DM, how the Detect spells work.
It takes rounds to determine these things, requires concentration, and is only a 60ft Cone.
Detect spells have limits, that, for some reason, DMs often overlook, and spoil their own fun.
I have had to remind, and remind, and remind, and remind, many a player, and DM, how the Detect spells work.
This... So much this...
My problem is NOT the detect spells... It's noncasters ability to protect themselves against detection...
Any char can up their ac to protection
Any char can up their saves...
Any char can up a skill for opposed rolls
Casters, and only casters can protect their alignment, or the aura of their gear...
The ring of mind shielding protect alignment. As for gear you basically need mindblank or a lot of scrolls even for a caster unless he wants to waste a lot of spell slots that day.
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It depends on the campaign.
Standard Campaign, naw doesn't really matter. My current game doesn't make any adjustments, doesn't need to.
If your playing a Socio-political campaign you should probably remove/alter the spells.
In the last social campaign I increased the level of all detect spells by 1 and made it so that Paladins/Inquisitors, could only use them 1 round per level per day. It worked well.
It takes rounds to determine these things, requires concentration, and is only a 60ft Cone.
Detect spells have limits, that, for some reason, DMs often overlook, and spoil their own fun.
I have had to remind, and remind, and remind, and remind, many a player, and DM, how the Detect spells work.
This... So much this...
My problem is NOT the detect spells... It's noncasters ability to protect themselves against detection...
Any char can up their ac to protection
Any char can up their saves...
Any char can up a skill for opposed rolls
Casters, and only casters can protect their alignment, or the aura of their gear...
Anyone can attack you so everyone needs to be able to defend against attack.
Saves are used against many non-magical affects so everyone needs to be able to resist these.
All characters have skills so the ability to oppose them is also needed.
Only casters are able to cast detect spells so not everyone one needs to be able to counter them.
There seem be the idea that everyone in the world is a player class, and that casters are common. The vast majority of the people encountered are supposed to be NPC classes. The only NPC class that gets spells is the adept and even they should be fairly uncommon. Even fighters and rogues are supposed to be a cut above normal. The town guards are warriors not fighters. The common thief is probably an expert at best. The village priest is probably going to also be an expert, or an adept at best.
Also most people are supposed to be lower than 6th level. There also seems to be the idea that the world is filled with high level characters. In a typical city probably only a hand full of people will be 5th level and above. Those that are will tend to be well known and established characters. They will be the leaders of the community instead of the ordinary citizens. These are they type of people who spent years developing their power and influence.
In a world where the gods do intervene and alignment actually means something being evil is not necessarily looked on as being a bad thing. In a society that worships an evil god evil it will be quite common. In our world no one wants to be thought of as evil, but in Cheliax where the state religion is worshiping Asmodeus it is probably quite common. Actually in Cheliax being detected as good may actually be considered bad.
In order to be evil you actually need to do evil things not just think evil thoughts. Anyone powerful enough to have a detectable aura probably has a reputation for that alignment. A little digging will probably uncover scandals and rumors about the person.
I think rogues, spies, and assassin type characters should be able to wriggle their way out of detect spells. Even if you did do a DC, then Paladins would just cast it again and again until they beat it. If the person has a spell masking their alignment, it's instantly suspicious. Detect spells kinda ruin classic character types.
If you want the sudden reveal that their ally was evil then you can't have the paladin or cleric just detect evil on the guy and know it all along. Even if their just "undetectable" the PCs are gonna be suspicious. Not every villain can be a second level Master Spy.
That shifting alignment thing Master Spies have could be a class feature for Rogues and Slayers. Maybe an Investigator archetype could pick it up too; I'm thinking Mastermind.
I always use Detect spells as another sense, using either Spellcraft, Perception, or Use Magic Device, whichever the caster prefers.Sounds nice... Does the "victim" get an opposed roll (stealth, will save, disguise, etc) ? Or do you use a flat DC?
For objects, it's flat. For living creatures, their Spellcraft, Sense Motive or Bluff, whichever is higher.
In my mind, if you are a very good liar in a world where magic is commonplace, you are trained to "lie" to the arcane forces probing your brain.
I have boilerplate messages for failure too!
btw Disguise not protecting the user is by my own design
Fail using Spellcraft vs. Spellcraft: "As you attempt to scry within X, you realize the spell slips out of your control and dissipates"
Fail Perception vs. Spellcraft: "You try to gaze inside X, but your senses become jumbled."
Fail Use Magic Device vs. Sense Motive: "You try to ascertain X's essence, but it rejects your intrusion."
and so on
To the main question, no, because that would make a spell that almost no players prepare essentially useless. Also it sounds to me that this would screw over the paladin.
TL;DR NO
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It takes rounds to determine these things, requires concentration, and is only a 60ft Cone.
Detect spells have limits, that, for some reason, DMs often overlook, and spoil their own fun.
I have had to remind, and remind, and remind, and remind, many a player, and DM, how the Detect spells work.
This... So much this...
My problem is NOT the detect spells... It's noncasters ability to protect themselves against detection...
Any char can up their ac to protection
Any char can up their saves...
Any char can up a skill for opposed rolls
Casters, and only casters can protect their alignment, or the aura of their gear...
Or buy a Ring of Mind Shielding
Those things should be on the finger of everyone with moderate resources and a secret worth protecting.
There is also no law against being evil.
I've always wondered why.
There is also no law against being evil.I've always wondered why.
You might be evil and wholly capable of doing "something", but there is no way to judge a crime until it is committed. Maybe you will have change of heart before doing ____. Not all evil people are out to cause trouble. You can be evil with good intentions, but your methods may be the problem.
You might be evil and wholly capable of doing "something", but there is no way to judge a crime until it is committed. Maybe you will have change of heart before doing ____. Not all evil people are out to cause trouble. You can be evil with good intentions, but your methods may be the problem.There is also no law against being evil.I've always wondered why.
Bad things don't count as Evil until they hurt people or profit off their suffering in some way. Those sorts of acts should be illegal in the opinion of any truly Good ruler/lawmaker.
If they don't have the balls to do the Evil acts when the time comes, then they wouldn't have detected as Evil in the first place. I can't punish 'thought crimes' here, you only detect as Evil if you're one of the naturally evil creatures in the universe, or you've actually done Evil things, not just thought about them.
Evil with good intentions is usually quelled/imprisoned/destroyed with the same haste as any other kind when people grasp the full scope of it. These sorts of things are slow moving and the perpetrator is prone to A) having a change of heart when they realize how crazy it is or B) going off the deep end and telling themselves they've come too far to back out now. Someone has to detect them and tell them that the universal forces have decided they're Evil. This will force them to go directly to A or B, which will fix the problem either way; remorse and surrender, or confrontation.
In summation, and to answer your first sentence, you're going to make the world a much better place if you take proactive measures against evil. Don't wait for them to rise up and burn the kingdom before you decide you should keep an eye on the Evil portion of your population.
I'm not saying there should be a squad of Paladins detecting and smiting the populace all the time, not every Evil act has to be death penalty-worthy. However, it makes complete sense to detect and interrogate every Evil person in a Good nation.
You might be evil and wholly capable of doing "something", but there is no way to judge a crime until it is committed. Maybe you will have change of heart before doing ____. Not all evil people are out to cause trouble. You can be evil with good intentions, but your methods may be the problem.There is also no law against being evil.I've always wondered why.Bad things don't count as Evil until they hurt people or profit off their suffering in some way. Those sorts of acts should be illegal in the opinion of any truly Good ruler/lawmaker.
If they don't have the balls to do the Evil acts when the time comes, then they wouldn't have detected as Evil in the first place. I can't punish 'thought crimes' here, you only detect as Evil if you're one of the naturally evil creatures in the universe, or you've actually done Evil things, not just thought about them.
That is not what I was counting as evil. My example was more like someone who was 100% committed to the act, and/or more than willing, but something may have happened in between point A and point B that sidetracked him. Now the fact that he was stopped by from carrying out the act aka "lack of completion" does not make him "not evil". He just has not had the chance to prove that he was evil to any "do gooders".
Evil with good intentions is usually quelled/imprisoned/destroyed with the same haste as any other kind when people grasp the full scope of it. These sorts of things are slow moving and the perpetrator is prone to A) having a change of heart when they realize how crazy it is or B) going off the deep end and telling themselves they've come too far to back out now. Someone has to detect them and tell them that the universal forces have decided they're Evil. This will force them to go directly to A or B, which will fix the problem either way; remorse and surrender, or confrontation.
Let me give a more direct example:
Person A: <is going to kill person B> Now to remove any "what if" arguments we are going to say there was not going to be a last minute change of heart.
Now as he is about to make the killing blow his arm cramps up allowing the would be victim to escape, or he gets hit by a car before he gets to the scene of the crime.
Another may also be waiting for the right opportunity/motivation.
This person has no problem killing someone, but he has not been upset enough to do so. Maybe he dislikes his well off next door neighbor, but knows he would die or go to jail so he does not do it. Then one day he happens upon a potion of invisibility. If he gets that potion and kills the neighbor then he was evil before he got the potion. Not acting is not always about being a coward. There are people who never did anything heroic just because the opportunity never presented itself. That means they are not heroes, but it does not mean they are not brave or good people.
Lack of action is not always lack of evil, unless the action is held back by your inability(as in refusal) to commit the act.
That is how you get people who are completely evil, but may not have harmed anyone "yet".
I am sure most devils politic, more than fight, their way up the ladders of hell, but I don't think anyone would say the devil is not evil until he actually commits an act of violence or is responsible for one.
Basically what I'm asking in title... Should a pc/npc/item get a save to resist detect spells?
I would say no. If nothing else, this would have the ironic effect that the more powerful you were, the less likely any given person would be to be able to detect you.
I have a real issue with the idea that the fifth level cleric detects as evil, but the pit fiend that he summoned does not.
Basically what I'm asking in title... Should a pc/npc/item get a save to resist detect spells?I would say no. If nothing else, this would have the ironic effect that the more powerful you were, the less likely any given person would be to be able to detect you.
I have a real issue with the idea that the fifth level cleric detects as evil, but the pit fiend that he summoned does not.
Pit Fiend: I am one of the good Pit Fiends. Your spell/sla is working just as it should. :)
Pit Fiend: I am one of the good Pit Fiends. Your spell/sla is working just as it should. :)Basically what I'm asking in title... Should a pc/npc/item get a save to resist detect spells?I would say no. If nothing else, this would have the ironic effect that the more powerful you were, the less likely any given person would be to be able to detect you.
I have a real issue with the idea that the fifth level cleric detects as evil, but the pit fiend that he summoned does not.
M'lud, the defense rests.
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There are alternate rules for detect spells to be found in this book.
Instead of returning a True/False reading on evil (or good, or law, etc) the spell provides bonuses to perception, sense motive, and knowledge checks against evil (or good, lawful, etc) creatures, places, and items. The rules feature an expanded role for auras as well, which make the whole thing easier to adjudicate.
In summation, and to answer your first sentence, you're going to make the world a much better place if you take proactive measures against evil. Don't wait for them to rise up and burn the kingdom before you decide you should keep an eye on the Evil portion of your population.
I'm not saying there should be a squad of Paladins detecting and smiting the populace all the time, not every Evil act has to be death penalty-worthy. However, it makes complete sense to detect and interrogate every Evil person in a Good nation.
Really? Because that seems like capital E Evil to me right there. Neutral at best.
"Alright everyone, round up the shifty looking ones and beat them until they confess."That may just be the chaotic in me though. Let's tone it down a bit.
"Monitor every letter and visitor that guy has, he detected as evil X times/is related to someone who detected as evil/comes from a primarily evil race."Still looks like bigotry, discrimination, racism, etc.
And that's only an extremely Lawful "Good" society. Chaotic Good isn't going to tolerate you violating their privacy and freedom with regular Evildar scans. Neutral is probably going to have at least some of the same problems (as it has elements of both). Only Lawful would willingly and regularly submit themselves for "evil" screenings.
Then we get into the problems of the spell itself. The line "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell. " means that if you want to kill a dude for revenge you detect as Evil (provided you're level 5+). Or, say, you're dragged into an interrogation chamber by the government and subjected to repeated questioning and spellcasting because you "don't look right" or "are new to town" or any number of other inane reasons. I'm pretty sure wanting to punch your interrogator in the face because you don't like them is Evil, so no barbarian I make would pass this "test". Probably none of the bards either.
Good doesn't have to be...
Their alignment is the making profit or taking pleasure in the destruction or suffering of others. That is exactly the sort of thing that it totally okay to make judgements based on. This is not rounding up everyone of a single religion or ideology and saying "they're probably bad people because they're different." They are captial E Evil, they have been detected as such by magic that is shown to work consistently in a particular way. This is like not allowing convicted felons to buy firearms. It's just a safe idea. They wouldn't even have to line up or submit to these things, you just have paladins/inquisitors who's job is to scan the crowds and go with census takers when they hit the boonies and little towns out in the country.
Maybe if you don't want to get arrested or put under watch, you shouldn't be an objectively terrible person that has done something bad enough to go to the lower planes when you die. This is a world of moral objectivity, Evil people are in fact Evil, yes every time, and they shouldn't be left to roam the streets freely.
