I often wondered why Paizo or no other of the larger Roleplaying Game Companies (WOTC, FFG, etc.) have TV commercials to advertise their products. I can see some really great commercials that could be done for various games, including big brand names like Marvel, DC Comics, and even Star Wars RPG merchandise. Is RPG gaming as bad as cigarette ads? Is there a legal reason? I'm sure $$$ COSTS $$ is the first argument but when i see some other lousy unheard of items that can afford to get commercials why no RPG's?
Just curious,
Kettlebriar
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Various professionals have touched on this topic over the years, and the general answer is that, yes, nationwide television advertising is astoundingly expensive to the point of being an economic bad bet for companies at the RPG industry scale.
Personally, the only time I can vaguely recall there being TV ads for an RPG were during the initial D&D fad in very early 1980s.
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There used to be Magic the Gathering commercials, but they stopped doing them since they ended up being pretty silly.
Sure, you could make points about playing with friends or telling a story collectively or going over all the SUPER FUN AND ENGAGING MATH you get to do when making a character, but who is that directed at? The people who are already interested in playing Pathfinder in the first place? There could be some really fun, quirky ads I'm sure but ultimately I don't believe that it would be a wise use of resources to try and reach out to demographics that wouldn't touch a d20 with a ten-foot pole or do math for fun since that is, you know, a majority of who you'll hit with the ads in the first place unless you're trying to hawk the game on specifically nerdy channels (and, odds are, they're already aware of D&D at that point).
Of course, RPGs just sort of sell themselves anyways - it isn't like there is a lack of demand on any level.
Like most things which don't have tv advertisements, no one in marketing has figured out a way to make the product appealing to a wide enough market to get the required return on cash outlay.
Someday, someone may figure out just how to sell it and RPG's will become the next skip-it, furby, or SNL.
They had them when AD&D was HUGE (which many don't remember as it was before they played, or even before they were born).
These days I think it's more of a money thing. In many ways you could say it's similar to other table top games. You used to see commercials all the time for board games...you still see one pop up once in a while, but not like they used to.
It may also have to do with mass market appeal. These are niche products. You have to sell them through the right channels to reach your customers. Internet, conventions, local game shops, comic book shops, bookstores, and so on.
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.
TSR ran a few TV ads for D&D and other games in the early 1980s. My understanding is that a later cost-benefit analysis indicated that the ads lost TSR significant amounts of money.
TV ads are very expensive. National ad campaigns start in the millions of dollars range. It's only viable if you reasonably expect to increase sales revenue by 10-20% more than the ads cost.
I'm no marketing expert, but I've worked in the creative side of marketing in the past. TV ads for a niche product like RPGs is a non-starter in today's market. There is no way national TV ads would be profitable.
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Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.
Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. When I mention RPG's the response I'm more likely to get is closer to "Oh I like final Fantasy / Fallout / Skyrim" When I correct and say TTRPG's I usually get "Oh you mean like D&D? People still play that?"
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Similarly, I ask the guy who runs the local bodega why he doesn't advertise on national TV all the time.
I say: "Esteban, these $4 sandwiches are awesome, why not attempt to grow your market share nationally with TV ads?"
And all he says to me is some nonsense about "negative ROI".
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. When I mention RPG's the response I'm more likely to get is closer to "Oh I like final Fantasy / Fallout / Skyrim" When I correct and say TTRPG's I usually get "Oh you mean like D&D? People still play that?"
Here's the thing: Most people today know that an "RPG" is some kind of game. Back in the '80s or '90s, you'd just get a blank stare.
Unless you were talking to someone who was ex-military, who would think "rocket-propelled grenade" and be even more confused!
Today, you have a mix of younger people who know video games, and old-timers who have been playing TTRPGs for decades.
I mean, look at the attendance of GenCon. The ony time I've gone was for GenCon 20 in 1987. The attendance was about 5,000. GenGon Indy 2014 had more than ten times that.
I don't see much in the way of commercials for any form of RPG, whether tabletop or video game. I never even saw any Skyrim commercials. Last RPG commercial I saw was Star Wars Old Republic MMORPG about a month before it launched 3 years ago or so.
Only video game commercials I see anymore are the Gamestop pre-order BS, or sport games by EA. My only guess is the reason why D&D, Pathfinder, and all the other tabletop RPGs don't have commercials is due to the cost, and it could be rather tough to make it really appealing in visual commercial form.
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Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f%**ing g@&++&n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.
I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f%!@ing g&!!$*n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
Not sure that another opinion on this will further the discussion any, but my experience is very similar to Haladir's. I've been playing D&D and other games since 1981 or so, and RPGs used to exist in a much smaller niche than they do today. I did a little googling around and didn't find much information one way or another on the question (so the internet can't definitively settle the debate, as it so often does...), but my personal experience is certainly that more people have heard of or tried out a tabletop RPG than ever did during the first twenty-odd years of my gaming career.
By way of anecdotal support for this idea, this article doesn't really track popularity over time, but it does make the point that TTRPGs are "increasingly becoming a mainstream activity" and says that Stephen Colbert was a big D&D player, and once even issued an on-air shout-out to “any half-elf thieves who are joining us tonight.” Again, purely anecdotal, but that would never have happened in the 80's or 90's.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.
Funny, they seem to be playing without any dice on the table. Maybe RPG's were considered cool enough, but dice weren't.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.Funny, they seem to be playing without any dice on the table. Maybe RPG's were considered cool enough, but dice weren't.
Which is weird because they never have an issue with showing dice with board games ;)
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
That's pretty much the opposite of my experience. When I mention RPG's the response I'm more likely to get is closer to "Oh I like final Fantasy / Fallout / Skyrim" When I correct and say TTRPG's I usually get "Oh you mean like D&D? People still play that?"
Here's the thing: Most people today know that an "RPG" is some kind of game. Back in the '80s or '90s, you'd just get a blank stare.
Unless you were talking to someone who was ex-military, who would think "rocket-propelled grenade" and be even more confused!
Today, you have a mix of younger people who know video games, and old-timers who have been playing TTRPGs for decades.
I mean, look at the attendance of GenCon. The ony time I've gone was for GenCon 20 in 1987. The attendance was about 5,000. GenGon Indy 2014 had more than ten times that.
GENCON is a poor example though. It's not just TTRPG's. I'd argue that it's geek culture in general as there's just as many Boardgamers and Wargamers there as TTRPG's. Even if that number was still all TTRPG's it's STILL a niche hobby with those numbers. Barely worth a notice outside of the hobby.
.By way of anecdotal support for this idea, this article doesn't really track popularity over time, but it does make the point that TTRPGs are "increasingly becoming a mainstream activity" and says that Stephen Colbert was a big D&D player, and once even issued an on-air shout-out to “any half-elf thieves who are joining us tonight.” Again, purely anecdotal, but that would never have happened in the 80's or 90's.
I'd argue that if media was as prevalent and expansive as it was today back then you WOULD see someone giving a shout out to D&D on screen.
In fact didnt TSR balk at allowing Spielberg to use actual D&D stuff on screen in E.T.? Which is why the game the Mike and his friends are playing at the kitchen table early on in the film is very D&D like without anyone ever calling it out specifically as D&D?
Also D&D had a Saturday morning cartoon. It had ads in both Marvel and DC comics. Even if you were NOT an RPG geek you at least had some exposure to it. Now? Not so much. The TTRPG Community is very insular.
I was a black kid from Bushwick Brookyln in the 80's and even I knew what D&D was because the ads in my favorite comicbooks.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.Funny, they seem to be playing without any dice on the table. Maybe RPG's were considered cool enough, but dice weren't.
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't there a point when the DM did all the rolling?
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but wasn't there a point when the DM did all the rolling?I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.Funny, they seem to be playing without any dice on the table. Maybe RPG's were considered cool enough, but dice weren't.
Not unless that was some sort of a weird house rule.
Also remember that in the days when TTRPGs did advertise on TV, the industry was much more monolithic. For that matter, so was television (We usually got about 8-10 channels!) In the early 80s, TSR and D&D dominated. Now there are a lot more options regarding the system, publisher, and so on. So while the industry overall might be more popular than ever, it doesn't resemble what it looked like in the 80s.
I would say that video games have emerged so they are no longer a niche product, but have mass market appeal. Sort of like how nearly everyone buys things like food, soap, cars - these products need to advertise to reach as many people as possible. Video games are more like movie releases these days. TTRPGs have a ways to go before we can say that everybody played one when they were a kid. I think that is called market saturation? Been a while since I took marketing.
Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
Lived and went to different places I was. It was the biggest thing (biggest fad that you've seen) starting probably around 81 to around 85.
Everyplace I went, it was HUGE. Nothing in RPGs today even comes close.
Think the comic book movie revolution happening now, and double it and you may have the popularity of RPGs back then.
IT was massive at the time.
Gencon...not that reflective of the culture. That's like saying comicon reflects how popular the Marvel movies are (which would be like saying only a couple thousands in popularity).
The popularity of something is reflected in how far it spreads BEYOND (and excuse me for saying it) nerd/geek culture.
I'd say GenCon is more a showing of how nerd/geek culture has increased in popularity rather than RPGs. If anything, it shows how RPGs have retreated from outward culture become more niche into a geek culture rather than popular culture.
One company in the late 80s and early 90s brought in over 100 million in profit for an RPG. Nowdays, I think someone mentioned the collective amount the RPG industry brings is 15 million? (though I'd put it higher than that seeing Paizo's profits and WotC's estimated amount from others). THAT was AFTER the fad even...when they were bringing in that much.
Who knows how much just D&D was bringing in when it was the "IN" thing.
I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f$%#ing g!%$!$n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
That's funny actually, but soooo true. There was a reason some people had Heavy Metal and RPGs connected in their minds (some of the religious groups)...both seemed on the same tablet at times.
And of course the teens and tweens rebelled with gusto against it.
At the time it was like cults and D&D were connected as the same thing also in the news and Religious groups.
Similar to how people went against the violence in video games for the past decade or so...but with overtones of religion cast all through it.
Mothers would hide their children from RPG players because the RPG players were servants from hell!
TV ads would be equivalent to a shotgun approach to a laser issue in that you would have far too large a group of viewers who would never have any interest at all, so you would be wasting your cash. Instead, the focus ought to be on groups who contain a large number of high potential buyers. That is why TV just won't work. With that being said, lately they have been running ads for a dating site called farmers only.com and I keep thinking that is such a niche that they are wasting their money, yet the ads keep running.
And in answer to one of the original questions from the original poster, no, there is no legal barrier to running such ads.
It depends on the time when the ad runs as well as with what shows and what channel.
Some channels run extremely cheap (hundreds may not seem cheap to all, but relatively, it is) in regards to when and with what an ad is placed.
It depends on the time when the ad runs as well as with what shows and what channel.
Some channels run extremely cheap (hundreds may not seem cheap to all, but relatively, it is) in regards to when and with what an ad is placed.
Yea... I don't think you can get commercial time for hundred of buck on TV anymore. Maybe a spot for less than $1000, on an upper band OTA station between midnight and 5AM, but then, who's watching?
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While not TV, WotC is making a concentrated effort to make sure the general public knows about their new product. It was actually an impressive multi-page spread in the printed version. I know D&D has been talked about in numerous papers across the country for the past 8 mos. or so.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.
Um, I did, about seven posts above yours...
I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f+**ing g#&!!@n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
I was playing D&D in the early 1980s, and I can assure you that D&D was was much less mainstream than it is today.
Yes, there was some anti-D&D hoopla back then. Angry mobs really didn't do much to popularize the game. There's kind of a big difference between lots of people wanting to buy books and lots of people wanting to burn books...
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I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f+**ing g#&!!@n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
I was playing D&D in the early 1980s, and I can assure you that D&D was was much less mainstream than it is today.
Yes, there was some anti-D&D hoopla back then. Angry mobs really didn't do much to popularize the game. There's kind of a big difference between lots of people wanting to buy books and lots of people wanting to burn books...
I also played back then. And in my own personal experience, it was much more widespread back then.
I'm surprised no one has posted a link to this yet.Um, I did, about seven posts above yours...
Sorry, missed it in the wake of the weird "back in the 80s D&D was bigger than the Beatles" argument. I'd like to know where this magical land was where playing D&D was the popular thing to do, because I certainly didn't live there.
We aren't talking some obscure small niche game from back in the 1980's. What about some of the licensed RPG's??? Star Wars, Marvel, DC, and Game of Thrones, Middle Earth (One Ring), Doctor Who...surely they are not so obscure that they couldn't have some AWESOME concepts for commercials to run during Big Bang Theory or at least The Wil Wheaton Project...LOL.
I'm sorry, but no. D&D was f+**ing g#&!!@n massive in the early to mid-80s. People may not have played it, but they were at least vaguely aware of what it was. (a tool of Satan) These days, most people assume it's a video game.Wasn't always this niche though. Used to be much less niche.Um, no.
I've been a gamer since the early 1980s. TTRPGs are more popular now than they've ever been. They also have a much more positive view in the zeitgeist. It's probably spillover from the popularity of RPG video games, which is a much larger market.
I was playing D&D in the early 1980s, and I can assure you that D&D was was much less mainstream than it is today.
Yes, there was some anti-D&D hoopla back then. Angry mobs really didn't do much to popularize the game. There's kind of a big difference between lots of people wanting to buy books and lots of people wanting to burn books...
I was back then as well.
Seeing everyone played it, inclusive of jocks and everyone else...my experience says it was much more popular.
If we are going to use personal anecdotes.
But why use that?
Sales by TSR/D&D in the early 80s (In 80s dollars) was in the 20 to 30 million dollar range.
by the late 80s to early 90s it was hitting around the 100 million range (but that was for everything under TSR, not just the RPG line).
That's only one RPG and not the entire industry.
I think Paizo is considered the leader now and they made...I'm not certain of that amount, I heard 30 million being bandied around recently, but I am unsure of that amount.
Apples to apples, as the industry leader, that would less overall (since it's in 2010 decade dollars) than the earlier ones.
Another post on these forums pegged the entire RPG industry as around 15 million (I think it's more, but that was the estimate) also in 2010 decade dollars.
That's a lot less then at the RPG height, and even in it's decline.
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I suspect our estimates of how popular RPGs are now compared to then says much more about our personal situation than about the industry.
I suspect our estimates of how popular RPGs are now compared to then says much more about our personal situation than about the industry.
You're probably right that plour personal experienced are clouding our perceptions. I don't have any data.
I grew up in a city in northern New England with a population of about 100,000. D&D was very much not a thing there. When I was in high school (total student body ~2000), there were weren't any other kids that played. The stereotype was that it was only nerds and stoners that played, and most kids kept their distance. None of the mainstream bookstores stocked D&D books. The only places to get the books were a Toys 'R Us and a little hobby shop that mostly sold model train and model rocketry supplies.
I had to find kids from another high school to play D&D with. When I had a falling-out with them (due to them being racist dickbags to another friend that tried to join their group), I finally started my own group. Since the D&D cartoon was on TV at the time, I had a hard time convincing people that D&D wasn't a game for little kids.
It wasn't until I went to a large college in another state before i found a large gaming community. And by "large" i mean about 50 people at a college with a student body around 40,000. And half of them played Star Fleet Battles, not D&D. This was in 1988.
I suspect that both groups are right.
More people probably did play in the 80's, before video games, magic, and competitors cut into the Market.
BUT..I suspect that the people who did know about it were mostly confined to the players and conservative fundamentalists that hated those players.
Whereas now...
The general "embrace" of geek culture means that a much larger group of people probably have heard of it who don't immediately think of satanism, and nostalgia means its generally seen in a positive light. Also a ton of people who grew up on DnD entered show business, so we see a lot more references on TV and in movies than we did in the 80's. And there is such a huge comingling of geeky subcultures that a lot of jokes or nods to the game can be understood by other people.
Well, I think a big problem is that there are very few places you can legally buy an RPG. I mean how many people need to defeat tank armor?
Wait, I think I misunderstood the thread.
But yeah, I remember the 80's, and the amount of anti-d&d paranoia was stupid.
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I remember a commercial that might have been for the original Red Box. If I recall correctly, it started by focusing on a flying saucer, that turned out to be the shield wielded by the fighter on the Red Box. Either that, or the shield flew off the cover to become a flying saucer (an ad for Star Frontiers, maybe?). Does anyone else remember something like this?
Edit: I found it. It was a commercial for Star Frontiers, after all. It's the first commercial in this video.
I have NEVER seen that Star Frontiers commercial....Ever. LOL That used to be our game until Alternity.
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The comments about GenCon, something to consider:
Regardless of the growth/diminishing of the RPG customer base compared to 1980 you have a couple of external factors that are more impactful to GenCon attendance.
1) Gamers have gotten older as a whole. There were certainly 40+ year-old gamers back in 1980, but their number has dramatically increased as a proportion of the overall gamer population.
2) Older people have more disposable income for things like spending a weekend in a distant city participating in your hobby. Teenagers rarely have the $500 to $2000 needed the single weekend (or scale that down to 1980 dollars if needed) of gaming at GenCon.
Basically, it boils down to gamers as a whole are wealthier now than they were 30 years ago. This isn't to say that gaming causes you to be wealthier, but rather that older people tend to have more money than younger people and so an aging population means that a higher % of it will have more money to spend on specific products or activities.
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The best commercials, IMO, for RPGs are half hour episodes of big bang theory and community. A 30 second commercial is going to ... What ... Show off the artwork? They're not demonstrate what actually makes RPGs fun. Give it a full half hour and you can show people enjoying themselves and what makes it fun.
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TV commercials are no longer needed in this generation. A good YouTube/Twitch personality is just as effective as spending millions on a TV commercial. Look at what Table Top has done for board-gaming.
Pretty much this. 1 vid with Felicia Day talking about your game wins you far more sales than an ad on KFBVWCTV.