Brilliant Energy - too high an enhancement bonus?

[Wiggz]

I was looking at its equivalent enhancement bonus (+4, higher even than Speed at +3), and then considering all of the occasions where it 1) grants no benefit (most creatures in the game don't wear armor) or 2) renders the weapon completely useless (undead, constructs, etc.).

I think it should at least harm undead, considering that they are organic in nature, even if not technically alive, and that the equivalent enhancement bonus should be +3 at most.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Is there a rules question in this? Other than the question in the title (which is subjective) I'm not even seeing a question.

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

I agree that it often doesn't grant too much benefit. But when it does, it is amazing.

I'd say it is good enough for the +4.

But I think it should harm undead.

[Claxon]

Yeah, this belong more in advice than rules. There is not a problem understanding the rules, but rather understanding why the rules are as they are.

In general I think a +5 price tag is too expensive, but if you made it a +3 it's probably too good. At least if you're in the right campaign.

It's true that it doesn't work on large swaths of enemy that don't wear armor (non-humanoids usually) or other creatures that are straight immune like undead and constructs. However, in the right campaigns it can be immensely useful. Especially in adventure paths where 80% or more of enemies are humanoids wearing armor, it can be incredibly powerful.

Heck, if the price were reduced to a +4 and you could turn the effect off I'd still be a rough sell but I might actually consider using it sometimes.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Brilliant energy is probably too useful in anything with a lot of humanoid opponents with class levels and almost worthless for everything else unless your DM enjoys fully building monsters. If your DM likes giving monsters their treasure to use brilliant energy probably becomes worth it again as there's nothing stopping most monsters from putting on a haramaki/silken ceremonial armor for free AC. If you fiddle with their feats you can get them up to breastplate/plate mail for even more AC, dex permitting. This is all at fairly high level though, where armor + shield can add up to an extra 21 AC easy (+5 plate mail for 14, +5 heavy shield for 7). Even just the haramaki can give you +6 AC.

Speaking as a player, the only time I bothered with it was a Lightning Bow. In order to make it worth using up +4 of my weapon I'd want Brilliant Energy to bypass Natural Armor as well (a balancing factor introduced to make sure higher level monsters were arbitrarily harder to hit). That means Brilliant energy would make every attack effectively a touch attack while still adding damage normally. In return it doesn't function against a large group of monsters and costs a lot, so you wouldn't get it before level 10, and more likely around level 15. And that's a +1 brilliant energy weapon, so many DRs are still blocking you for the first 9/14 levels. There's ways around this, but I think by the wording of brilliant energy (made into light) you can't apply oils/blanches to the weapon for the easy ways.

Now we muddy the waters with Inubrix, located on this page, which allows you to bypass iron or steel armor and shields (standard armor in the book) for only 5,000 gp more. In return it's one size category smaller, constantly has the broken condition, and can't hit golems made of iron or steel. As a player I would absolutely take an Inubrix version of my main weapon, make it +1, and only use it if armor became a problem while giving all the enchantments to my real weapon (usually adamantine).

[Aelryinth]

Brilliant energy is a monstrously powerful temporary buff idealized to kill PC's and NPC's. It is effectively worthless against anything else and worse then worthless against undead and constructs.

It's not too pricey because of the first function. An elevating bonus to hit as your enemy has better gear is monstrously powerful.

But it's flavored totally wrong. It should be a soul-leeching shaft of negative energy, not a blade of light.

==Aelryinth

[PIXIE DUST]

Personally I like using Brillent Energy for special swords for the party in certain campaigns.

In campaigns that are low magic and more focused on martial combat (i.e. games with huge, large scale combat and typical "lead the troops to victory against the corrupt) due to the visuals and the awesome effects it can create. Finding a legendary sword that can penetrate teh toughest armor and looks like Excalibar is AWESOME.

[Gilfalas]

Wiggz wrote:

I was looking at its equivalent enhancement bonus (+4, higher even than Speed at +3), and then considering all of the occasions where it 1) grants no benefit (most creatures in the game don't wear armor) or 2) renders the weapon completely useless (undead, constructs, etc.).

I think it should at least harm undead, considering that they are organic in nature, even if not technically alive, and that the equivalent enhancement bonus should be +3 at most.

A +4 Enhancement cost that can equal up to a +23 to hit (+5 Full Plate and +5 Tower shield beuibg canceled is effectively getting a free +23) is not too shabby IMO even if it is situational.

In a humanoid-ish centric campaign, where all the bad guys are classed characters, it can be a monstrous advantage.

[LazarX]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Is there a rules question in this? Other than the question in the title (which is subjective) I'm not even seeing a question.

No it's a request for a rules change, which ain't gonna happen.

[Wiggz]

LazarX wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Is there a rules question in this? Other than the question in the title (which is subjective) I'm not even seeing a question.

No it's a request for a rules change, which ain't gonna happen.

Actually its a request for opinions on a rule, which a number of people have been kind enough to give.

But thanks for the constructive input.

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I think that at the very least Brilliant Energy needs some way to be turned off, similar to the elemental enchantments. That way it would at least not render your weapon completely useless against several common categories of enemies.

[Davor]

There are lots of weapon enchantments that are pretty situational (ghost touch comes to mind). This strikes me as one of them. It's worth the cost of enchantment, but is the kind of thing that varies depending on the campaign.

[thegreenteagamer]

I'd never actually buy/commission a brilliant energy weapon, but if my GM included it in the game I'd take the hint and keep it. At least in a homebrew game.

I mean, after all, as a GM I wouldn't throw a flaming sword in my players' pile of loot if I planned on throwing them against a red dragon next session. That'd kind of be a dick move.

[houser2112]

Davor wrote:

There are lots of weapon enchantments that are pretty situational (ghost touch comes to mind). This strikes me as one of them. It's worth the cost of enchantment, but is the kind of thing that varies depending on the campaign.

Yeah, but at least a ghost touch weapon, while situational, isn't useless when its useful situation isn't present. BE weapons are explicitly useless against two broad categories of monster.

[Aelryinth]

Aye, brilliant MAKES YOUR WEAPON WORTHLESS against undead and constructs. That's worse then worthless...Ghost Touch doesn't have any effect on non-incorps, true, but it doesn't render your weapons useless on the side.

That's worse then useless against most monsters. That's actively degrading your weapon. There's NO WAY you can put this on a primary weapon.

==Aelryinth

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

Aelryinth wrote:

...

That's worse then useless against most monsters. That's actively degrading your weapon. There's NO WAY you can put this on a primary weapon.

==Aelryinth

Well, I would call it an unusual campaign where that is most of the opposition to be encountered. Carrion Crown and Golden Spear are some of the few.

Most AP's I've seen and most home campaigns I've participated in, (at a rough guess) the brilliant energy weapon would be massively helpful 1/4 to 1/2 of the encounters, no benefit 1/4 to 1/2 of the encounters, and completely useless less than 1/4 of the encounters.

I still probably wouldn't purchase it until really high levels when I can't seem to figure out what else to spend my cash on.

But in those campaigns at the other end of the spectrum where we're fighting lots of humanoids with gear? Oh yes! As soon as affordable.

[Aelryinth]

That's why it's an awesome alternate buff for a Paladin's sword bond.

==Aelryinth

[Kthulhu]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Personally, I think that at the very least Brilliant Energy needs some way to be turned off, similar to the elemental enchantments. That way it would at least not render your weapon completely useless against several common categories of enemies.

When I've GMed in the past, that's always been my take on it. You can turn it on and off. It'd be nice if they'd bother to insert that into the description though. Because if it can't be turned off, then I agree 110%...+4 is WAY too expensive. Maybe a +2 at best, given that it makes your weapon a situational secondary weapon.

[Wiggz]

Kthulhu wrote:

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Personally, I think that at the very least Brilliant Energy needs some way to be turned off, similar to the elemental enchantments. That way it would at least not render your weapon completely useless against several common categories of enemies.

When I've GMed in the past, that's always been my take on it. You can turn it on and off. It'd be nice if they'd bother to insert that into the description though. Because if it can't be turned off, then I agree 110%...+4 is WAY too expensive. Maybe a +2 at best, given that it makes your weapon a situational secondary weapon.

And that it offers absolutely no benefit against the vast majority of foes - animals, magical beasts, dragons, most outsiders, etcetera.

Besides, if you can't turn it off, how exactly would you sheath it?

[Kthulhu]

pet troll named Sheath

[Zwordsman]

I would never really use it.. if it was toggle-able like everything else is I would like it more though. Looking at the other possible +4 stuff it doesn't seem as useful.

Also with all the newer stuff out since the Core rule book, there are actually more than a few other ways to hit touch attack depending on class and weapon.
I do think +3 toggle would fit the best. At least then it would see some possible usage in games that don't go to 16+.

[Lucy_Valentine]

Aelryinth wrote:

That's worse then useless against most monsters. That's actively degrading your weapon. There's NO WAY you can put this on a primary weapon.

One sword for monsters and another for humanoids... holy mackerel! The Witcher is actually set in a Pathfinder game!

Wiggz wrote:

Besides, if you can't turn it off, how exactly would you sheath it?

The scabbard is a magnetic bottle?