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But they don't. They both add the Int modifier. And modifiers aren't bonuses. This text: "A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty" is from the Ability Score section. I don't believe those terms are interchangeable across the entire system. There's no such thing as a Morale modifier or a Profane modifier.No. As they both add Int. Bonus.
Kirin Strike does break the standard stacking rules within itself though as it does double the Int bonus in damage.
You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
Melee attack rolls.
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
Climb and Swim checks.
Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).
It shows that modifier and bonus are used interchangeably. We all know that if using a light weapon, and your Strength is less than 10, you get a penalty. Thus the word modifier. However, if you want to make the word modifier and bonus completely different terms as far as how to define one or the other from each other, then you would never get a penalty for swinging a light weapon in the off-hand, and we know this is simply not true.
I also point you to this post by Sean K. Reynolds:
That discusses how the game is written and why trying to parse literal meaning out of slight differentiation in language is not how to interpret the rules.
I feel this post actually supports my stance that ability bonuses are typed by the ability they come from.
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Actually d20pfsrd is, word for word, RAW. They literally just copy and paste the hardcover rules into the site. In fact, they even tend to post up common FAQs NEXT TO ISSUES IN QUESTION.
We try to make playing Pathfinder as convenient as possible and hope the placement of the FAQ and errata comments is helpful.
Yes, we begin by copying word-for-word from the source materials. In a very small number of cases we have to change 1-2 words in order to respect Paizo's intellectual property (such as changing "Varisian Tattoo" to "Magical Tattoo" etc.) but we feel in those cases that is not a mechanical change and in fact, in a larger number of cases that change is actually beneficial to most campaigns. The reason I say that is that I maintain that more people play in their own home campaigns than play in Golarion, and tying mechanical benefits to one campaign setting is unnecessarily limiting. However, as always, consult your GM before using ANY rules resource that ISN'T a rulebook published by Paizo. I know I even don't allow everything from Paizo but I do allow SOME stuff from other publishers. Each GM has their own preferences! :D
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I'm pretty sure you can't UMD having a mystery you don't have.I'm picturing someone with a Lore Oracle with Sidestep Secret trying to get a Ring of Revelation of Nature's Whispers with UMD (both give Charisma to AC).
I think it'd be weird to let that stack.
Of course the entire umd shenanigans is weird by itself.
You can (so long as your homebrew GM allows it) because UMD allows you to emulate a class feature, but that's not the point of the discussion here. I encourage you to look it up, it's quite strange.
@d20pfsrd.com, I hope I didn't offend you with my comment. The only reason I brought up the name change issue was because in PFS land we see a lot of new players bring characters with "Magical Tattoo" or use a racial feat they don't qualify for which causes long lectures of "buy the books" and "double check names prereqs when building with d20PFSRD". The typical advice we give is to use d20PFSRD to look stuff up quickly, but double check it against the book it comes from (or the PRD). In this case, the table people were referencing (that included the trait bonuses) didn't seem to come from a book directly.
I very much like your website, it saves me an enormous amount of time.
It shows that modifier and bonus are used interchangeably.We all know that if using a light weapon, and your Strength is less than 10, you get a penalty. Thus the word modifier. However, if you want to make the word modifier and bonus completely different terms as far as how to define one or the other from each other, then you would never get a penalty for swinging a light weapon in the off-hand, and we know this is simply not true.You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
Melee attack rolls.
Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
Climb and Swim checks.
Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).
Actually, that shows that either we've all been handling the rules for low Strength attacks wrong or that the text is in error. The rules are quite clear:
A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.
Luckily, this is corrected in the Combat section:
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
I also point you to this post by Sean K. Reynolds:
That discusses how the game is written and why trying to parse literal meaning out of slight differentiation in language is not how to interpret the rules.
I feel this post actually supports my stance that ability bonuses are typed by the ability they come from.
I've read that quote. But you're working from the assumption that the bonus has a type because "most bonuses have a type." Most is not all, and not necessarily nearly all. There is plenty of wiggle room for Ability bonuses to be untyped. And the fact that '<ability> modifier' and '<ability> bonus' is used across the entire game system as shorthand for or ±X or +X (where X is the ability modifier or bonus) leads me to believe that it is not a type. Because I don't believe I've ever seen anything refer to your Morale modifier. Or tell you to add your Morale bonus to something, where Morale is some number.
A wrestling show that used to air on Monday nights?
*Ducks*
(Haven't watched in a decade, so no clue if it still does.)
Sure hope they fix it, because wisdom modifier to AC twice is dumb!
EDIT: Now that I think about it, if I were to dip into Sacred Fist my monk would get about.. 50 AC? So he'll go to "only hit on a natural 20" to.... "only hit on a natural 20".
Uh ? Note that a Magus Eldritch Scion Capenia Dancer / Duelist can add his CHA and his INT to his AC while a Magus not Eldritch Scion can't... And if you take this one with monk you can add Wis...
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?|
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Multi-classing and the game itself was never designed for that level of class dipping.
To try and base your rules understanding on what's possible in the most cheesiest circumstances is very suspect.
@redward: we will have to agree to disagree I fear. Because we have fundamentally different understanding of how thus works. I can't even follow your logic.
@ David Bross: Mike did not make a ruling. He made an irritated comment.
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Uh ? Note that a Magus Eldritch Scion Capenia Dancer / Duelist can add his CHA and his INT to his AC while a Magus not Eldritch Scion can't... And if you take this one with monk you can add Wis...
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?
I'm honestly having some trouble parsing your post.
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?
I find it strange that you can double up on your wisdom bonus to AC with this combination. I think it's cheesy, probably not intended, and likely to be errata'd. But it's probably not that huge of a deal because most monks have absurd AC anyway.
Let's not be condescending. We've yet to be had any posts removed by a mod.
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Uh ? Note that a Magus Eldritch Scion Capenia Dancer / Duelist can add his CHA and his INT to his AC while a Magus not Eldritch Scion can't... And if you take this one with monk you can add Wis...
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?I'm honestly having some trouble parsing your post.
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?I find it strange that you can double up on your wisdom bonus to AC with this combination. I think it's cheesy, probably not intended, and likely to be errata'd. But it's probably not that huge of a deal because most monks have absurd AC anyway.
Let's not be condescending. We've yet to be had any posts removed by a mod.
Mike Brock made an off the cuff irritated post. He doesn't state that Dex bonuses stack. He made no declaration of the kind. To use his admonishment of players arguing for extreme cheese as a declaration if how the rules work us a stretch at best.
The developers made the errata, because they realized they forgot to add a line. Again, making the assumption that this means they advocate stat stacking is ludicrous.
@redward: we will have to agree to disagree I fear. Because we have fundamentally different understanding of how thus works. I can't even follow your logic.
Fair enough.
But for posterity, I'll try one last time.
I believe this is your logic:
Common Terms->Bonus->"most bonuses have a type"
Here is my logic:
Common Terms->Bonus->"most bonuses have a type"
Ability Scores->Determine Bonuses->"a positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty."
And if you insist on applying SKR's 'duck' analogy, don't you think that "equal to your Strength Bonus" and "Strength bonus" would qualify as 'similar enough that they probably mean the same thing?'
There are Bonus spells. Bonus Feats. The word gets thrown around a lot.
If I multi-class Sorcerer and Oracle, do I only get Bonus spells for one of those class? Is that stacking my Cha bonus? If I multi-class Brawler and Fighter, do I only get Bonus Combat Feats from one of those classes?
Regardless, your interpretation is based on an assumption that
<word> + 'bonus' = typed bonus
I don't believe that assumption is valid, nor do I believe you've presented evidence that it is anything other than an assumption. Otherwise, you end up with weird cases like "additional" and '+1' being bonus types.
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I'm honestly having some trouble parsing your post.Uh ? Note that a Magus Eldritch Scion Capenia Dancer / Duelist can add his CHA and his INT to his AC while a Magus not Eldritch Scion can't... And if you take this one with monk you can add Wis...
But you find strange that you can't add two time your Wis ac bonus with a monk and Warpriest ?
Sorry I'm going to try to be clearer...
I'm making a Magus, I take the Kapenia Dancer archetype cause I want a Bloodrager Bloodlines Fey... And the faculty to add INT to AC in addition to Dex.
Since I'm a Fey oriented character I want my abilities based on Cha so I take the Eldritch Scion Magus archetype which can be taken when you are a Kapenia Dancer... Now I can add my Cha to AC in addition to Dex instead of my Int.
So far I have not dipped in anything, one class Magus (Eldritch Scion and Kapenia dancer archetype). So as I level up I find that the Duelist PrC synergize well with my character and I take levels in it...
With the Duelist I can now also add my Int to AC (note that if I were not an Eldritch Scion I cannot do that since I will already add my Int to AC with the Kapenia dancer, but now I'm adding my Cha to AC so it work).
Until now NO dipping, just a regular class and a PrC class that let me add Cha and Int to AC...
If I decide that I want to fight a little bit unarmed then I can dip (first dip) a monk level and add Wis to AC...
So that makes me a character with only 1 dip level who can add Dex, Cha, Int and Wis to my AC...
So with that said I can't understand why you find a simple Wis+Wis to AC overpowered... ;)
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Because now you have to build up 4 stats whereas with the monk + sacred fist combo you only have to build up 2 (dex and wisdom). Have fun maintaining all that while I dump all my money into two stats.
The only advantage your build has (from the perspective of AC) is that if you were to (hypothetically) get a +6 headband for all three mental stats, then you would sometimes get a +9 bonus to your AC. Except that's very expensive. For a +6 wisdom headband I can get a +6 to my AC with a monk + sacred fist, and it's significantly cheaper. My +5 wisdom stat book turns into 4-6 AC, whereas yours is a 2-3 AC.
"Jack of many trades, master of none."
Anything that I put into Wisdom has double the benefit, that's why this is so strong. Yes your build gets bonuses from a lot of different places, but it's more difficult for you to increase all of those stats, whereas I can just pump the living crap out of my wisdom for double the benefit to my AC.
Also note that for the duelist benefit you have to take a lot of levels because it's 1 int per level.
Canny Defense (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
Also note that this intelligence bonus is being added to your dexterity modifier, which means when you're flat footed, you lose your dex AND your int bonus. Not so for the Sacred Fist Monk's wisdom bonus.
Prescient Defense (Su): The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, granting him a premonition of his enemy’s intentions. The magus gains a bonus to his AC and on Reflex saves equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) against attacks by that opponent until the beginning of his next turn. The magus must be at least 9th level before selecting this arcana.
Also, you have to be 9th level to take this. So CHA -> AC comes online super late in character development. Level 2 for monk! Also, this is not always on, you have to spend arcana to do it after hitting someone, and it only applies to the creature you hit. The Sacred Fist monk has no such problem.
So, you're potentially looking at 9 levels in Magus, a level in monk, and some indeterminate number of levels in duelist to get that online?
Monk + Sacred Fist has this benefit at second level.
So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that this double wisdom to AC is much more potent than a build that comes online at like 13 or so.
I believe this is your logic:
Common Terms->Bonus->"most bonuses have a type"
The problem here is that ability bonuses are listed as ability modifiers. A bonus is just a positive modifier.
You apply your character's [Strength modifier] to:
You apply your character's [Dexterity modifier] to:
You apply your character's [Constitution modifier] to
You apply your character's [Intelligence modifier] to:You apply your character's [Wisdom modifier] to
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
This is no different than [strength bonus] or [wisdom bonus] because a bonus is just a positive modifier. The difference is that it has to say modifier because more than anything else ability modifiers can be NEGATIVE.
When a strength modifier is positive its a [Strength Bonus]
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I believe this is your logic:
Common Terms->Bonus->"most bonuses have a type"The problem here is that ability bonuses are listed as ability modifiers. A bonus is just a positive modifier.
You apply your character's [Strength modifier] to:
You apply your character's [Dexterity modifier] to:
You apply your character's [Constitution modifier] to
You apply your character's [Intelligence modifier] to:You apply your character's [Wisdom modifier] to
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:This is no different than [strength bonus] or [wisdom bonus] because a bonus is just a positive modifier. The difference is that it has to say modifier because more than anything else ability modifiers can be NEGATIVE.
When a strength modifier is positive its a [Strength Bonus]
I could see that as quite an impact on how things work. Then it would make sense to combine them, if one is a Modifier and one is a Bonus - Since a Modifier can be Negative.
Interesting. I really wish they'd provide a FAQ or Response on this stuff already.
I could see that as quite an impact on how things work. Then it would make sense to combine them, if one is a Modifier and one is a Bonus - Since a Modifier can be Negative.
Interesting. I really wish they'd provide a FAQ or Response on this stuff already.
What does it change really?
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Ah, I made a mistake. I missed the part where Kapenia Dancer gives you Canny Defense and assumed you were talking about an arcana. My bad.
Canny Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when a kapenia dancer is wielding a bladed scarf, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name (Core Rulebook 382), save that his magus level (rather than his duelist level) affects his Armor Class.
For one, I don't think you can get this from Kapenia Dancer AND Duelist because they're overlapping class features that are explicitly identical (I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't). But even if you could, you still have the same problems from Canny Defense. You lose this benefit when you're flat footed, and you have to continue leveling in Magus to get it.
So effective level of your build is like, [8+] Magus + [Int Mod] Duelist + 1 monk? So like level 11? And your stat bonuses are capped by your magus and duelist level? Yeah.
Level 2 for Sacred Fist Monk.
EDIT: Also, I guess this is kind of beside the point. Just because there may be more over powered things out there doesn't mean that something else can't be over powered.
Ah, I made a mistake. I missed the part where Kapenia Dancer gives you Canny Defense and assumed you were talking about an arcana. My bad.
You have to make up your mind... Because class power with the same name don't stack is not in the rules.... The one thing you can say is that if a bonus come from the same source it doesn't stack,but since the source is not Canny Defense but the Ability score the source are not the same... ;)
Before everyone was assuming that the source for the Canny Defense bonus was Canny Defense not the ability score...I'm a Magus so I've already got a MAD issue so one or two more.. :p
But the issue is not there, I can still found a headband of Int and it would be useful, while with your monk you won't do anything with it, I have not to raise all my stat, it's a bonus if I have a dump stat such as Str and Wis I don't take the dip in monk and still have Cha+Dex (my two main characteristic) and int (a bonus but it's "free") to my AC.
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First, there's a FAQ for Canny Defense which changes the ability to give a Dodge bonus equal to Int modifier to AC. So it's a typed dodge bonus. All dodge bonuses stack. Seems kosher.
Still,
But the issue is not there, I can still found a headband of Int and it would be useful, while with your monk you won't do anything with it
Yeah, just like armor would be a bad choice for my monk, or anything but a blade scarf would be a bad choice for your magus. This is not really an argument. A wisdom headband would unequivocally give a better return than an intelligence headband for the purposes of AC, because the SFM gets twice the wisdom bonus right out the door, whereas this magus+duelist+monk would have to have the appropriate number of duelist levels, which you can't take until 9th level, to receive the benefit of the int headband. So you need to be at least 10th to benefit from +2 int head band, 11th for +4, and 12th for +6. The int bonus is not free, because you have to take levels in duelist, which you can't take until late game. Sounds more difficult.
SFM level 2.
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And if you insist on applying SKR's 'duck' analogy, don't you think that "equal to your Strength Bonus" and "Strength bonus" would qualify as 'similar enough that they probably mean the same thing?'
You'll note I've been fairly consistent ni saying that "equal to your Strength Bonus" and "Strength Bonus" are the same thing and they are both considered a typed bonus called Strength.
I did have one post where I said I wasn't 100% sure that this alternate wording was actually equal. But since re-reading SKR's post and finding for this thread, I am more convinced now than ever that they work the same. Both are typed.
The only rules that discuss stacking, is discussing not being able to add multiple positive numbers from the same bonus type.
And your comment about "additional" and "+1" being bonus types is a nice deflection. You are better than that.
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From what I understand some people do not want ability modifiers to stack, and so they read the rules to say that.
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I find these two responses rather important, but unfortunately neither of them necessarily account for RAW.
Response from Dale McCoy Jr(President of Jon Brazer Enterprises and Designer of Sacred Fist Archetype) 09/19/2014
"If a player in a game I was running asked me if they wanted to play a warpriest/monk, I'd allow the stacking. IMO, you are still giving up some class abilities of the monk when you are taking warpriest levels and the same is true with the reverse. This archetype allows them to harmonize well, in the same way that many PrCs allow for multiclass harmonization.
But that is how I would rule it at my table. I'm not sure how the people at Paizo will decide for PFS."
Response from James Jacobs(Creative Director) 09/10/2014
"I cannot imagine anything other than these bonuses overlapping. Stacking would be too ridiculous.
But that said, like all rulebook questions, it's better asked over there than here."
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Funny. I keep seeing people that really want them to stack, so they try really hard to read it in a way that'll let them.From what I understand some people do not want ability modifiers to stack, and so they read the rules to say that.
It's funny how that works for both sides, in every argument. Right?
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It's funny how that works for both sides, in every argument. Right?Funny. I keep seeing people that really want them to stack, so they try really hard to read it in a way that'll let them.From what I understand some people do not want ability modifiers to stack, and so they read the rules to say that.
That's what I wanted to show yeah.
It's funny how that works for both sides, in every argument. Right?
Honestly no.
I have yet to see a reasonable counter to the point that a wisdom bonus is a type of bonus.
Even if that doesn't work, declaring the class ability rather than the wisdom score as the source is, at best, an arbitrary 50/50 decision.
Mysterious stranger + Pistlero errata by devs is pretty compelling evidence that stat bonuses can be stacked.
Its also compelling evidence that they're not going to let you stack this either.
It also doesn't address the argument itself.
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I think that in the past, not all writers were on the same page. Some probably thought it would stack (see Dragon Ferocity), which gave them leeway for some now-problematic language. A bit like how "wielding" can mean a lot of different things depending on where you're reading it.
I do think though that with the amount of stat-switching and stat-adding powers floating around, that it's time Paizo made up its mind and dealt with this in a more consistent fashion.
It's a pretty compelling argument that stats are not typed bonuses or they could have just FAQ'ed it instead of issuing errata.
Its not a counter argument, at all. It doesn't say "this is where your logic went wrong".
If they don't want to let you stack it errata it.
Conversely if they do want to let you stack it FAQ it.
Don't claim the game functions in a way the devs have demonstrated they disagree with via actions.
This hasn't happened. It also doesn't address the specific argument. A positive ability modifier is an ability bonus. That seems very clear.
If they agree with it as I said they'd just say "You can't stat stack, they're typed."
If they agreed with it they'd just say stack them its untyped and the feat is the source.
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if they do want to let you stack it FAQ it.
This should be on a t-shirt.
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The multiple attacks angle not really a good example because the feats in question explicitly tell you to total up the damage from each separate attack, which is what the bonuses are being applied to. So even if they were typed here, the feats specifically tell you to add them anyway. There's no ambiguity there, and it's not comparable to what is being discussed here.
What about Clustered Shots? If you shot 5 arrows into someones chest with Clustered shots you then add up all of the damage from the various arrows. Would you not add up all of the ability damage from the various arrows.
What about Pummeling Style? Is this not another example of ability bonuses stacking?
Not the same thing. You're doing [1d8+ 3 enchantment + 4 strength] X 3 arrows. Its only adding once, its multplying per arrow.
Heck, there are even times when the rules will say add twice your Cha or 1 and 1/2 times your Str. Is this not also the explicit stacking of ability bonuses.
One feat saying you do it is fine. Feats break rules, thats the point of them (and exceptions like two handed fighting)
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I find these two responses rather important, but unfortunately neither of them necessarily account for RAW.
Response from Dale McCoy Jr(President of Jon Brazer Enterprises and Designer of Sacred Fist Archetype) 09/19/2014
"If a player in a game I was running asked me if they wanted to play a warpriest/monk, I'd allow the stacking. IMO, you are still giving up some class abilities of the monk when you are taking warpriest levels and the same is true with the reverse. This archetype allows them to harmonize well, in the same way that many PrCs allow for multiclass harmonization.But that is how I would rule it at my table. I'm not sure how the people at Paizo will decide for PFS."
Response from James Jacobs(Creative Director) 09/10/2014
"I cannot imagine anything other than these bonuses overlapping. Stacking would be too ridiculous.But that said, like all rulebook questions, it's better asked over there than here."
I know similar questions have been asked before, so bare with me if I'm being thick-skulled.
Ability modifies are usually untyped bonuses, and as such they stack with anything except themselves. This has been mentioned in previous questions. But my question, is what if a stat is giving you a typed bonus?
For example, lets say an oracle with Sidestep Secret has the Osyluth Guile feat. Sidestep adds your charisma modifier (an untyped bonus) to AC. Osyluth Guile adds you charisma modifier as a dodge bonus to AC vs one opponent. Would the dodge bonus stack with the untyped bonus?
Thanks
Ability modifiers are always untyped modifiers unless some ability specifically says otherwise.
Furthermore, dodge bonuses ALWAYS stack.
Untyped bonuses always stack.