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For PFS, don't count on it working.
Don't try it without telling the DM.
Don't argue with the DM about it.
Don't insult the Dms knowledge about it.
Don't do it.
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You won't, because there isn't.
Page 208 for those with dead trees.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
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Alternatively contact your VC/VL ask them. That's how it works for your region because the VC/VL is the authority on things like that. I've already done this (and quite frankly asked just about every GM in my area) and they've all agreed it stacks but that it will probably be errata'ed/FAQ'ed to not stack at some point.
Going over the dms head like that on a fuzzy rule is bad enough.
Going over the Dms head like that in order to take advantage or a rules loophole so bad that even IF it works, you're being informed it will be closed, goes beyond jerk and into language not allowed on the boards.
There are two arguments as to why ability modifiers can't stack with themselves:
1. Ability modifiers are typed as the ability score; ie, your Dex bonus is typed as a "Dexterity bonus", your Cha bonus is typed as a "Charisma bonus", etc.
2. The ability score is the source, and bonuses from the same source don't stack.
I'd like to add a third:
3. The ability is the source, but bonuses that ADD and REPLACE are still allowed to stack, ie: Weapon Finesse(Replaces) + Furys Fall (Adds), Side Step Secret (Replaces) + Divine Protection(Adds). There are a few other combos with traits/class abilities where one replaces a standard value and another adds.
I believe they stack and paizo should errata the book.
The book was rushed out and there are other errors in the book to show evidence of this.
PFS can still make special rulings for it.
Andrew, your arguments and logic make sense but they are all predicated on this...
unless it gets ruled otherwise, I treat all ability modifier/bonuses as a typed bonus as per that ability.
The only justification I can see made for that decision is...
Paizo has already set the precedence that their "lists" in rules text are not exhaustive.
Additionally, the rule in the core rulebook that discusses what bonus types exist, does not list trait. And yet I don't think anyone would disagree that you can't stack trait bonuses.
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
(The last line of this quote was responded to further down the page with a counter argument that seemed valid.)
I wanted to ask about the basis of your decision to treat all ability modifiers/bonuses as typed. Did you find some piece of the rules that led you to that conclusion, or was it a case of being on the spot as a GM and deciding that Wis should not stack with Wis and not finding anything that disagreed with that ruling?
(Please don't take the above question in a negative light. I am not trying to launch a subtle attack or impune Andrew in any way. As a GM, I've had to make the occassional call based on nothing more than my thoughts that such and such should not be so, and nobody could find a reason why such a such interpretation wouldn't work as a GM ruling, so we'd all just go with that. I'm just wondering if the basis of Andrew's arguments - which again seem very logical and well thought out - are on anything more solid than that on-the-spot GM feeling of 'things should not work this way.')
Personally, I'm watching the trending of this thread quite eagerly. I have a level 1 Sacred Fist that is getting ready to multiclass monk, so I'd really like this combination to work. I also know of 2 others in my area who are playing characters with this multiclass stacking synergy in mind. The monk (or at least the unarmed fighter) is a very popular idea in my area, so seeing this has some of us very excited. At the same time, I have my concerns. As a player, I try to avoid coming to tables with builds that set off cheese-meters around the table. I trust myself not to abuse the build to the point where it dampens fun at the table, but since these are public games and different people have different views on what defines 'cheese' I find that it's often just not worth it. As a GM, I have to look over this stacking synergy and ask myself how easily it would get abused by others. One of the unfortunate downsides to organized play is that GMs are unable to make calls at the table which would provide for a more balanced atmosphere between the group.
All of which is to stay... I hope that the community can find a way to make this work but I have my doubts. :)
Mr. Hanlon I agree that PFS DMs are unable to make changes to balance things.
To combat this some DMs choose to read the rules to balance the game.
Personallly I dislike that greatly, but it is their choice.
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Doesn;t thios mean it is untyped?
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
That makes no sense.
At the very least the type of bonus would be Ability. If it has a descriptor in front of the word bonus, that descriptor is the type.
Deflection Bonus.
Dodge Bonus.
Intuition Bonus.
Dexterity Bonus.
Why is one specifically different from the others?
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Doesn;t thios mean it is untyped?
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
Yes. Which again means that something like the Monk/SF. Would stack.
Andrew let's look at this for a moment.
** spoiler omitted **
If you honestly believe that you cannot stack them I'd like an explanation for that line which explicitly calls out that you can stack them and instead you get +1.
How is this stacking? This ability specifically doesn't allow you to use Charisma twice. So your Charisma bonus is not stacking.
The abilities stack, in that one of them gives you something else if you have both abilities. But you don't add Charisma twice.
I'm trying not to get frustrated here, but feeling a bit like I'm in bizarro world as everyone seems to be misapplying the terms "stack" and "source".
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Wouldn't that example prove his point. Aren't they saying that since you couldnt get the bonus again you instead get a +1 so the feat is actually worth something?
I am not sure what the answer is, but I think Andrew has the right idea and one I am expecting them to go with. You can only stack attribute bonuses if they are different bonus types. So you could have Wis bonus to AC and a armor bonus to AC equal to your wisdom but not Wisdom bonus to AC twice.
Now an interesting case would be if they said add your Wisdom bonus to AC as an untyped bonus, which would technically fall into that category.
So what happens when he enteres an Anti magic field and the sacred fist turns off?
Personally what he's saying sounds to me like he'd rule they stack because EX and SU are difference types of bonuses and it's extremely significant given the nature of antimagic fields.
Another example of how you are misapplying the stacking rules. It is immaterial what source grants you the right to use an ability bonus.
The EX or SU of the class ability has no bearing on stacking. Just because you can't stack the two bonuses does not mean you lose one. Its still there. So if an antimagic field makes you lose the SU, you still have the EX. Its refundant, but under the right circumstances could prove useful.
Stacking only looks at the type of bonus. Not whether the class ability or feat is the same, EX or SU.
Does the bonus have a specific type (I.e. Trait, Deflection, Armor, Shield, Dodge, Insight, Dexterity, et. al.)
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Andrew, your arguments and logic make sense but they are all predicated on this...
unless it gets ruled otherwise, I treat all ability modifier/bonuses as a typed bonus as per that ability.The only justification I can see made for that decision is...
Paizo has already set the precedence that their "lists" in rules text are not exhaustive.
Additionally, the rule in the core rulebook that discusses what bonus types exist, does not list trait. And yet I don't think anyone would disagree that you can't stack trait bonuses.
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
(The last line of this quote was responded to further down the page with a counter argument that seemed valid.)
I wanted to ask about the basis of your decision to treat all ability modifiers/bonuses as typed. Did you find some piece of the rules that led you to that conclusion, or was it a case of being on the spot as a GM and deciding that Wis should not stack with Wis and not finding anything that disagreed with that ruling?
(Please don't take the above question in a negative light. I am not trying to launch a subtle attack or impune Andrew in any way. As a GM, I've had to make the occassional call based on nothing more than my thoughts that such and such should not be so, and nobody could find a reason why such a such interpretation wouldn't work as a GM ruling, so we'd all just go with that. I'm just wondering if the basis of Andrew's arguments - which again seem very logical and well thought out - are on anything more solid than that on-the-spot GM feeling of 'things should not work this way.')
Personally, I'm watching the trending of this thread quite eagerly. I have a level 1 Sacred Fist that is getting ready to multiclass monk, so I'd really like this combination to work. I also know of 2 others in my area who are playing characters with this multiclass stacking...
This is a fair question:
Here goes...
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn’t have a type stacks with any bonus.
So far, nothing is giving me an exhaustive list of bonus types. As a matter of fact, I could have sworn there was a section in the CRB that indicated a list of bonus types. But I cannot find it currently.
Ultimate magic, Page 131, however, has a chart of bonus types under Designing spells. It includes Alchemical, Armor, Circumstance, Competence, Deflection, Dodge, Enhancement, Inherent, Insight, Luck, Morale, Natural Armor, Profane, Resistance, Sacred, Shield, Size.
LINK Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
Sets the precedence that any list of bonus types that you might find are not exhaustive. (I swear I saw a list of bonus types, but that may actually be from 3.5--someone help me!) In any case, if there is a list of bonus types, the above precedence should show that it is not exhaustive.
The Advanced Players Guide introduced traits. Many (dare I say most) traits grant some form of bonus that is labeled as a Trait Bonus. Nobody here is going to argue that even if you find a list of bonuses from the core rulebook, that Trait Bonuses stack. They don't. Because they are a like bonus.
Do a search in the PDF of your Core Rulebook. In almost 100% of the iterations of <name your ability> Bonus, it lists it as <ability> Bonus (i.e. Dexterity Bonus, Wisdom Bonus, etc.)
If that isn't typing the bonus, then what is? Why is saying Trait Bonus typing the bonus, but saying Dexterity Bonus not?
Hope all this helps you see my logic.
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No because stat is not a specific type of bonus.Wouldn't that example prove his point. Aren't they saying that since you couldnt get the bonus again you instead get a +1 so the feat is actually worth something?
I am not sure what the answer is, but I think Andrew has the right idea and one I am expecting them to go with. You can only stack attribute bonuses if they are different bonus types. So you could have Wis bonus to AC and a armor bonus to AC equal to your wisdom but not Wisdom bonus to AC twice.
Now an interesting case would be if they said add your Wisdom bonus to AC as an untyped bonus, which would technically fall into that category.
So what happens when he enteres an Anti magic field and the sacred fist turns off?
Personally what he's saying sounds to me like he'd rule they stack because EX and SU are difference types of bonuses and it's extremely significant given the nature of antimagic fields.
Another example of how you are misapplying the stacking rules. It is immaterial what source grants you the right to use an ability bonus.
The EX or SU of the class ability has no bearing on stacking. Just because you can't stack the two bonuses does not mean you lose one. Its still there. So if an antimagic field makes you lose the SU, you still have the EX. Its refundant, but under the right circumstances could prove useful.
Stacking only looks at the type of bonus. Not whether the class ability or feat is the same, EX or SU.
Does the bonus have a specific type (I.e. Trait, Deflection, Armor, Shield, Dodge, Insight, Dexterity, et. al.)
Find me a comprehensive list of bonuses and language or precedent that says that when you see in the book "Dexterity Bonus" that it is not a typed bonus, and I'll agree with you.
But as far as I can tell, there isn't a comprehensive list of bonus types (I tried to find one, but could not) and precedence says (RE: Paizo FAQ) that any lists they write in text are not exhaustive.
So what language are you using to show that Ability Bonuses are not typed?
Quote from the book please, don't just say it again.
this list?
@ Andrew Christian
If it helps you've given at least one person pause for thought, I'm not convinced yet, but it does have me thinking hard.
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@ Andrew Christian
If it helps you've given at least one person pause for thought, I'm not convinced yet, but it does have me thinking hard.
Yup, that's the one I alluded to above from Ultimate Magic.
Being that its from Ultimate Magic, and not from the Core Rulebook, we can't really consider it a comprehensive list of bonus types.
Actually as it was published after the CRB surely it would be more comprehensive. As far as I'm aware Ultimate Magic is just as authoritative a source as the CRB.
In this specific case, it doesn't matter if "Wisdom bonus" is the source of the Monk ability, because the Sacred Fist ability specifically calls out "Wisdom modifier" instead. This makes the two completely separate bonus types, even if they both from from Wisdom.
I wish it were that easy, but a modifier is a bonus or penalty. p16CRB "a positive modifier is called a bonus", "a negative modifier is called a penalty".
They use modifier when it applies whether it's positive or negative.
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In this specific case, it doesn't matter if "Wisdom bonus" is the source of the Monk ability, because the Sacred Fist ability specifically calls out "Wisdom modifier" instead. This makes the two completely separate bonus types, even if they both from from Wisdom.
The definition of Ability Modifier or Wisdom Modifier is that it is considered a Wisdom Bonus.
In this case, modifier and bonus are synonymous.
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So in theory you could gain AC by having 7 wis and losing the ability.In this specific case, it doesn't matter if "Wisdom bonus" is the source of the Monk ability, because the Sacred Fist ability specifically calls out "Wisdom modifier" instead. This makes the two completely separate bonus types, even if they both from from Wisdom.I wish it were that easy, but a modifier is a bonus or penalty. p16CRB "a positive modifier is called a bonus", "a negative modifier is called a penalty".
They use modifier when it applies whether it's positive or negative.
It might behoove you to actually read the rules in the book, or the ones I called out above before you speak.
Penalties always stack, even if they are the same penalty type.
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It might behoove you to read the ability in question. You lose the ability if you wear so much as a chain shirt.So in theory you could gain AC by having 7 wis and losing the ability.In this specific case, it doesn't matter if "Wisdom bonus" is the source of the Monk ability, because the Sacred Fist ability specifically calls out "Wisdom modifier" instead. This makes the two completely separate bonus types, even if they both from from Wisdom.I wish it were that easy, but a modifier is a bonus or penalty. p16CRB "a positive modifier is called a bonus", "a negative modifier is called a penalty".
They use modifier when it applies whether it's positive or negative.
It might behoove you to actually read the rules in the book, or the ones I called out above before you speak.
Penalties always stack, even if they are the same penalty type.
And so what does that have to do with anything that has gone on in 82 posts to this point.
Was that just a comment from left field or is there some relevance to this entire thread?
So in theory you could gain AC by having 7 wis and losing the ability.
Apart from the fact that (assuming we are talking about the monks AC class ability) it specifies a minimum of 0 (0 being neither a penalty or a bonus, but still applicable they have to use the all encompassing term 'modifier'). But if you were referring to another generic ability that didn't have that limit in, then yes. But as you would have to acquire the ability in the first place, being aware (on some level) that it would be crippling, I don't see the difficulty in 'getting better' if you lose it.
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Apart from the fact that (assuming we are talking about the monks AC class ability) it specifies a minimum of 0 (0 being neither a penalty or a bonus, but still applicable they have to use the all encompassing term 'modifier'). But if you were referring to another generic ability that didn't have that limit in, then yes. But as you would have to acquire the ability in the first place, being aware (on some level) that it would be crippling, I don't see the difficulty in 'getting better' if you lose it.
So in theory you could gain AC by having 7 wis and losing the ability.
Exactly.
Losing a condition (or ability as it were) certainly causes either the penalty or bonus associated with that condition (or ability) to no longer be in effect.
That's how the rules work. So I'm unclear what the relevance of the comment is to the issue we've been discussing to this point.
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Uh ?!?! I don't understand... What is the source of the "+1 bonus Will saves for fear effect" gained by the Fighter at level 1 ? Because I'm pretty sure the source is : "Bravery (Ex)"
SO based on that I was also pretty sure that source for the "all Saving Throws bonus equal to Charisma Bonus" of the level 2 paladin was : "Divine Grace (Su)"
And now the source is not "Divine Grace" but "Charisma" ???
May I ask since when the source of a bonus granted by a Class Ability is something else thant the Class Ability ?
Sorry can't edit... So I just wanted to ask what happen to my reflexe saves if I am a Paladin 2/Oracle with Sidestep secret ?
This is a fair question:Here goes...
Thank you, Andrew, for the time and research. The idea of a wisdom bonus type seems much more valid now.
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Uh ?!?! I don't understand... What is the source of the "+1 bonus Will saves for fear effect" gained by the Fighter at level 1 ? Because I'm pretty sure the source is : "Bravery (Ex)"
SO based on that I was also pretty sure that source for the "all Saving Throws bonus equal to Charisma Bonus" of the level 2 paladin was : "Divine Grace (Su)"
And now the source is not "Divine Grace" but "Charisma" ???
May I ask since when the source of a bonus granted by a Class Ability is something else thant the Class Ability ?
People keep using the term "source". I don't know why.
The +1 bonus on Will saves vs. fear that Fighters get for Bravery is an untyped bonus. It will literally stack with everything other than another untyped bonus that is granted by another source of Bravery. How do I know this bonus is untyped? Because it doesn't have a descriptive word before the word "bonus". It just says, "+1 bonus."
The source of the bonus has no bearing on what type the bonus is.
If it says you get your Dexterity Bonus to AC, then the type of bonus you are adding to your AC is Dexterity. Why? Because its called Dexterity Bonus. It doesn't matter what the source that grants this is (in this case the source is the Core Rulebook, since its a standard bonus you get to your AC.)
Why is <ability> Bonus any different than any other type of bonus you receive? Dodge is a feat and it grants you a Dodge bonus. The source is the Feat called Dodge. Its convenient that the bonus and feat are the same, but is meaningless. The ability of inspire courage grants morale bonuses. Thy type of bonus is Morale. The source is the Bard ability Inspire Courage. But the fact it comes from inspire courage is meaningless to the type of bonus (other than Inspire Courage tells you its a morale bonus.)
So no, Divine Grace is the source. But the type of bonus Divine Grace grants to AC is a Charisma Bonus.
Just like you can't have two Morale bonuses that modify the same checks, regardless of whether they come from different or the same sources, you can't have two Charisma bonuses that modify the same thing.
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Sorry can't edit... So I just wanted to ask what happen to my reflexe saves if I am a Paladin 2/Oracle with Sidestep secret ?
You get your Charisma bonus and your Dexterity Bonus to reflex saves.
Since Divine Grace and Sidestep secrets do not stack, as they both are Charisma bonuses, you would not be disallowed to choose to use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Charisma bonus with Sidestep Secrets. Although since its a revelation, if you knew you were making this build, it would behoove you to not take Sidestep Secrets and not tank Dexterity as it would be redundant.
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FYI:
The only time the "source" of a bonus is necessary, is when you start getting bonus types that do stack. Such as Dodge and some Circumstance and Racial bonuses.
If Untyped, Dodge, Circumstance or Racial bonuses come from the same source, then you cannot stack them. If they come from separate sources, then they can stack except for any special rules each type of bonus designates.
The confusion people are coming across here, is the assumption that ability bonuses are untyped, and so they go directly to the "source" rule.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules that says ability bonuses are untyped. Nothing that even remotely alludes to it.
The fact that there is no comprehensive list of bonus types in the Core Rulebook, any bonus that has a descriptor word before the word "bonus" would be of the type of that descriptor word (i.e. Inherent Bonus, Wisdom Bonus, Dodge Bonus.)
Literally, RAW, does not support, in any way, shape, or form, ability bonuses being untyped.
So no, Divine Grace is the source. But the type of bonus Divine Grace grants to AC is a Charisma Bonus.
Just like you can't have two Morale bonuses that modify the same checks, regardless of whether they...
Err... Based on this principle I can't have anything adding "add your charisma bonus to bluff", since the bluff skill already have a Charisma bonus added... Or am I misreading something ?
Because I really think that you say that if my level 15 Order of the sword's Cavalier /level 1 paladin begin a Knight's challenge to an evil creature he gain "the cavalier adds his Charisma bonus on all attack rolls and damage rolls made against the target of his challenge."
And if in the fight I decide to Smite the Evil thing I will not gain the to-hit bonus from the Smite Evil because smite evil grant "the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls", is that it ?
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Yeah, I don't read it that way at all, Andrew. The way you present your argument makes sense, but it hinges on the concept that each individual ability score is its own bonus, and this isn't stated anywhere in the rules. You can claim that the rules don't say that they aren't untyped, but it also doesn't claim they're typed, either.
Until Paizo claims otherwise, people are not incorrect as reading ability bonuses as untyped. There are a number of abilities that people have mentioned (like Dragon Style/Ferocity) that simply would not work if the rules worked as you claim. And that leads me to believe that it is fully intended to be able to double-dip, except when it specifically says otherwise.
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Yeah, I don't read it that way at all, Andrew. The way you present your argument makes sense, but it hinges on the concept that each individual ability score is its own bonus, and this isn't stated anywhere in the rules. You can claim that the rules don't say that they aren't untyped, but it also doesn't claim they're typed, either.
Until Paizo claims otherwise, people are not incorrect as reading ability bonuses as untyped. There are a number of abilities that people have mentioned (like Dragon Style/Ferocity) that simply would not work if the rules worked as you claim. And that leads me to believe that it is fully intended to be able to double-dip, except when it specifically says otherwise.
The rules don't state anywhere a comprehensive list of any bonus types. There are like two bonus types mentioned in the rules about bonus types. So by your logic, because insight, inherent, and luck are not specifically called out as typed, they aren't.
We both know that isn't what you are saying.
But until Paizo clarifies otherwise, RAW, ability bonuses are typed, because the bonus has a name.
Feats and class abilities have to be read individually to determine how they work. We all know that Paizo uses imprecise language at times, and don't do a real good job of maintaining rules continuity when getting stuff written by freelancers. As for dragon style and ferocity, they work fine. On your first unarmed attack you get 1-1/2 strength damage instead of strength damage. With Ferocity, you need to look at its intent, understand the imprecise language issue, and realize you aren't stacking it with Dragon Style. It just makes all your attacks 1-1/2. The first does not become x2. Some classes can take feats without prereqs.
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Uh ?!?! I don't understand... What is the source of the "+1 bonus Will saves for fear effect" gained by the Fighter at level 1 ? Because I'm pretty sure the source is : "Bravery (Ex)"
SO based on that I was also pretty sure that source for the "all Saving Throws bonus equal to Charisma Bonus" of the level 2 paladin was : "Divine Grace (Su)"
And now the source is not "Divine Grace" but "Charisma" ???
May I ask since when the source of a bonus granted by a Class Ability is something else thant the Class Ability ?
People keep using the term "source". I don't know why.
The +1 bonus on Will saves vs. fear that Fighters get for Bravery is an untyped bonus. It will literally stack with everything other than another untyped bonus that is granted by another source of Bravery. How do I know this bonus is untyped? Because it doesn't have a descriptive word before the word "bonus". It just says, "+1 bonus."
The source of the bonus has no bearing on what type the bonus is.
If it says you get your Dexterity Bonus to AC, then the type of bonus you are adding to your AC is Dexterity. Why? Because its called Dexterity Bonus. It doesn't matter what the source that grants this is (in this case the source is the Core Rulebook, since its a standard bonus you get to your AC.)
Why is <ability> Bonus any different than any other type of bonus you receive? Dodge is a feat and it grants you a Dodge bonus. The source is the Feat called Dodge. Its convenient that the bonus and feat are the same, but is meaningless. The ability of inspire courage grants morale bonuses. Thy type of bonus is Morale. The source is the Bard ability Inspire Courage. But the fact it comes from inspire courage is meaningless to the type of bonus (other than Inspire Courage tells you its a morale bonus.)
So no, Divine Grace is the source. But the type of bonus Divine Grace grants to AC is a Charisma Bonus.
Just like you can't have two Morale bonuses that modify the same checks, regardless of whether they...
No, the type is 'untyped'. If it had a type it would list it. Currently all that is listed is what stat to derive the value from. For a Monk's wisdom to be a type of modifier they would have said add a wisdom bonus equal to your wisdom modifier. Much like the Duelist's Canny Defense ability "When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. " Not having a listed type does not mean that you can make up your own type, it means that it is untyped.
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When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD.
Looks like that bonus is typed.
In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
And this one isn't.
The CRB actually explains the difference between ability modifiers and ability bonuses:
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
So when something tells you to add your Wisdom modifier, that can be a negative number (for example, Sense Motive). When something asks for your Wisdom bonus, it can't be less than 0 (Monk AC Bonus ability).
But there is definitely such a thing as a "Wisdom bonus".
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I'd say that the Monk and Warpriest's AC Bonus ability is not the same source; they may happen to have the same name, but they are not the same thing.
Moreover, it seems that they both give you two separate bonuses, one drawn from Wisdom (shared source) and one from class level in that class (not a shared source).
So to me it seems obvious how it stacks: Wisdom only once, and levels in those classes applied separately.
What now if you're in an AMF? The monk ability still functions, so you're still getting Wisdom and monk level-based bonus to AC. You're not getting the War Priest level based bonus to AC however.
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When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD.Looks like that bonus is typed.
In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.And this one isn't.
The CRB actually explains the difference between ability modifiers and ability bonuses:
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.So when something tells you to add your Wisdom modifier, that can be a negative number (for example, Sense Motive). When something asks for your Wisdom bonus, it can't be less than 0 (Monk AC Bonus ability).
But there is definitely such a thing as a "Wisdom bonus".
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I'd say that the Monk and Warpriest's AC Bonus ability is not the same source; they may happen to have the same name, but they are not the same thing.
Moreover, it seems that they both give you two separate bonuses, one drawn from Wisdom (shared source) and one from class level in that class (not a shared source).
So to me it seems obvious how it stacks: Wisdom only once, and levels in those classes applied separately.
What now if you're in an AMF? The monk ability still functions, so you're still getting Wisdom and monk level-based bonus to AC. You're not getting the War Priest level based bonus to AC however.
By that same logic, if Wisdom Bonus(Monk) is it's "type"(even though I'm fairly certain it's untyped), then Wisdom Modifier(Sacred Fist) is a "type"; wouldn't that make even more sense for them to stack? I may be interpreting what you're trying to say incorrectly, but people have been going nuts on this thread and it's becoming more hazy as I read.
I think everyone should just go to This specific FAQ thread on AC Bonus and click on the FAQ button. The more FAQs the better, and hopefully there will be an official answer soon.
Keep sharing opinions, comparisons, and views in the meantime!