In the case of the former, PFS works off PFRPG RAW, so an official rules answer is more likely than a PFS-specific ruling. In the case of the latter, there is no such thing.
We have a faq request in for this topic here already Over 200 hits. I'm about 50/50 on how they'll rule it.
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I'm fine with giving the +1 / whatever level, but getting your wisdom bonus and your wisdom bonus is getting it from the same source.
Sans official ruling, I don't think they stack.
If they rule they stack... double dipping on my druids for +12 or higher to ac.
What kind of AC would your druid have, given that they can't wear armor?
On a monk/sacred fist combo, I don't find this broken. Monks (or monk-like characters) could use the love. If this duo suddenly becomes the ultimate double dip for other classes, my opinion will have to change. Still, it's going to depend on what they can do with it.
So what's the most broken PFS-legal build that someone can cobble together, assuming the bonus stacks?
Sacred Fist 1/Zen Archer X. My current level 11 zen going full out with Barkskin, Crane Style and Mage Armor has an AC of 38. Since wisdom is a primary stat for a zen archer (due to using it for attack) that'd boost him to 45, 49 if burning a ki and 50 if burning haste from my boots.
Outside of that really not much, maybe sensei if you count that, but I'm not a fan of the archetype. Your primary stat for all other classes is still either strength or dex.
I guess a druid, shaman or cleric maybe, but loosing two caster levels is the pits, and all of them can wear armor anyway.
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With one level in sacred fist. On my monk sensai 2 cleric 6. Base AC 27 self buffed AC 41. Hoever that does cost a caster level. So I'm not sure if I would do it.
When this character hits 12. He should have a self buffed AC 39 with out sacred fist level. With he would hit AC 47. That is not bad for a divine caster.
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unless it gets ruled otherwise, I treat all ability modifier/bonuses as a typed bonus as per that ability.
So regardless what ability or feat grants you the right to use some ability modifier as a bonus to modify something, you cannot stack two bonuses conferred from the same ability.
So you cannot get Dex to damage twice.
You cannot get Dex to Trip twice.
You cannot get Charisma to Saves twice.
You cannot get Wisdom to AC twice.
Unless there is some feat, ability or whatnot that specifically allows you to get the ability bonus twice.
I think James has stated in the past that abilities and whatnot that used the same stat that effected the same thing do not stack. Also i believe in PFS that it does not stack but no there is no official statement.
basically being that stats are an un-type and they dont stack on each other.
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I'm fine with giving the +1 / whatever level, but getting your wisdom bonus and your wisdom bonus is getting it from the same source.
Sans official ruling, I don't think they stack.
If they rule they stack... double dipping on my druids for +12 or higher to ac.
This would put you almost a full spell level behind a straight class druid, and make Boon Companion a feat tax. I guess it could be powerful for the first few levels, but at higher levels I would rather have the spellcasting.
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I think James has stated in the past that abilities and whatnot that used the same stat that effected the same thing do not stack. Also i believe in PFS that it does not stack but no there is no official statement.
basically being that stats are an un-type and they dont stack on each other.
In another thread someone posted links to places where he said they didn't ever stack, and then again to places where he called out exceptions. Basically, totally countered himself, a few different times. And we all also know, he's not the rules guy, self proclaimed.
They could technically also rule that replaces stacks with adds. Like sidestep secret (which replaces) stacks with paladins Divine Grace (which adds). Thats also allows weapon finesse + furys fall to work and there is way to replace attribute modifiers on some skills and then add different modifiers on top.
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They could technically also rule that replaces stacks with adds. Like sidestep secret (which replaces) stacks with paladins Divine Grace (which adds). Thats also allows weapon finesse + furys fall to work and there is way to replace attribute modifiers on some skills and then add different modifiers on top.
I don't allow weapon finesse + fury's fall to work since its using Dex bonus twice. The bonus type is Dexterity, and like bonuses do not stack.
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They could technically also rule that replaces stacks with adds. Like sidestep secret (which replaces) stacks with paladins Divine Grace (which adds). Thats also allows weapon finesse + furys fall to work and there is way to replace attribute modifiers on some skills and then add different modifiers on top.
This interpretation suggests to me that my example doesn't stack anyway because the dex modifier would have already been replaced by the first revelation; the second revelation has no dex to replace.
They could technically also rule that replaces stacks with adds. Like sidestep secret (which replaces) stacks with paladins Divine Grace (which adds). Thats also allows weapon finesse + furys fall to work and there is way to replace attribute modifiers on some skills and then add different modifiers on top.I don't allow weapon finesse + fury's fall to work since its using Dex bonus twice. The bonus type is Dexterity, and like bonuses do not stack.
Well, bonuses from the same source do not stack, and there is no bonus type "dexterity" at this time. What the current debate is what is the source? Is the source the feat, class ability, trait or is it attribute?
Even if they decide the source is "attribute" they could rule "replacing" and "adding" still stack, though I find it more likely they rule either "attribute" is or isn't the source to keep things easier.
What kind of AC would your druid have, given that they can't wear armor?
If you want to be cheesey, when the armor is wildshaped into you it doesn't count as wearing armor, so wild stone plate for +8, +4 ish dex, +12 wisdom/wisdom/
Until you can afford that armor mage armor at +4 does just fine
10 Base
+4 mage armor
+12 wisdom
+3 from your own barkskin
+1 deflection
+2 dex
+2 (or higher) natural armor bonus from critter form
34 with pretty minimal investment.
41 or higher once you get the armor, and still move at 60, pounce, and whatever else it is you do.
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They could technically also rule that replaces stacks with adds. Like sidestep secret (which replaces) stacks with paladins Divine Grace (which adds). Thats also allows weapon finesse + furys fall to work and there is way to replace attribute modifiers on some skills and then add different modifiers on top.I don't allow weapon finesse + fury's fall to work since its using Dex bonus twice. The bonus type is Dexterity, and like bonuses do not stack.Well, bonuses from the same source do not stack, and there is no bonus type "dexterity" at this time. What the current debate is what is the source? Is the source the feat, class ability, trait or is it attribute?
Even if they decide the source is "attribute" they could rule "replacing" and "adding" still stack, though I find it more likely they rule either "attribute" is or isn't the source to keep things easier.
Paizo has already set the precedence that their "lists" in rules text are not exhaustive.
Additionally, the rule in the core rulebook that discusses what bonus types exist, does not list trait. And yet I don't think anyone would disagree that you can't stack trait bonuses.
If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
And since in all instances that I can recall, where you use a particular ability modifier or bonus to modify a particular roll, it specifically says add your <ability modifier/bonus> to your roll, then it seems clear to me that ability modifiers are typed bonuses.
Until something specifically clarifies that this is not the case, that is how I will be ruling it at my table.
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So then how do people feel about an Oracle with one of the replace dex to AC with cha that worships Arshea and is high enough level to get her celestial obedience bonus of cha to AC as an armor bonus?
What if they multiclass into paladin and declared smite evil against someone, giving them cha as a deflection bonus to AC against that target?
What if they also had the feat Osyluth Guile and were fighting defensively, giving them their cha bonus to AC against a single target as a dodge bonus?
Each of these abilities give bonuses that should stack with each other, as Armor, dex, deflection, and dodge all apply to AC independently of each other.
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an ability bonus turned into a different type of bonus is different.
The bonus type they have is deflection. There are no stacking issues here.
Multiclassing currently can be an issue when folks cherrypick level dips just so they can max out stacking and getting their character to only need one stat to do everything.
But if you are straight up adding Dex from one source and adding Dex from another source, that ability cannot be modified by a Dexterity bonus twice.
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All of those bonus combinations you provided have different bonus types, don't they? (Untyped + Dodge, Untyped + Deflection, Untyped + Armor)They do, but surely someone is going to say "You can't have cha to AC four times."Either Cha is the source or the class features are. Type of bonus does not matter, source does. There is no middle ground. Either that doesn't work or the monk/SF works. Either Dragon style gives you +half str damage or it doesn't.
If the stat bonus is the source and not the abilities then all of these including the ones where it seems clear how it should function (dragon ferocity) will fail to function.
If not they all work.
I disagree with your logic.
When you say, "you can add your Charisma modifier to your AC as a Deflection Bonus" Then the bonus being added is Deflection and won't stack with any other Deflection bonuses.
When you say, "you add your Charisma modifier to AC" then the bonus you are adding to AC is a Charisma bonus and is typed as Charisma.
When you say, "you can replace your Strength bonus with Dexterity Bonus" then you are adding your Dexterity Bonus and it will not stack with anything else that also allows you to use your Dexterity Bonus.
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All of those bonus combinations you provided have different bonus types, don't they? (Untyped + Dodge, Untyped + Deflection, Untyped + Armor)They do, but surely someone is going to say "You can't have cha to AC four times."Either Cha is the source or the class features are. Type of bonus does not matter, source does. There is no middle ground. Either that doesn't work or the monk/SF works. Either Dragon style gives you +half str damage or it doesn't.
If the stat bonus is the source and not the abilities then all of these including the ones where it seems clear how it should function (dragon ferocity) will fail to function.
If not they all work.
I disagree with your logic.
When you say, "you can add your Charisma modifier to your AC as a Deflection Bonus" Then the bonus being added is Deflection and won't stack with any other Deflection bonuses.
When you say, "you add your Charisma modifier to AC" then the bonus you are adding to AC is a Charisma bonus and is typed as Charisma.
When you say, "you can replace your Strength bonus with Dexterity Bonus" then you are adding your Dexterity Bonus and it will not stack with anything else that also allows you to use your Dexterity Bonus.
The bonus is still the stat bonus in different forms. You can't add your wisdom as a deflection bonus and a dodge bonus because it's your wisdom bonus. Even in 10 different ways the STAT is still the source and does not stack. There is literally no other way it can exist. The bonus is a CHARISMA deflection modifier and a CHARISMA dodge modifier and as such cannot stack with each other because the SOURCE is the same.
If the rule is "The stat is the source of the bonus" All stat stacking typed or untyped fails automatically.
If the rule is "The class feature/feat/item is the source of the bonus" then they all stack automatically.It's a blanket rule which effects large swaths of the game...
I think where our disconnect here is, is where we are defining source and how that works with the statements that two bonuses with the same source can't stack.
You are saying its binary, either the source is the Ability score, or the source is not the Ability score.
I'm saying that's not true:
The source is where the bonus comes from. When you are talking bonuses like Deflection bonuses, they don't stack because they are both of a type called Deflection.
James Jacobs has tried to use crazy logic to disallow some stacking and allow other stacking based on what he prefers as a GM, not what makes sense from a rules logic standpoint.
You can't sit there and say that "Ability modifiers are untyped bonuses that don't stack with one another."
Because the untyped bonuses stack.
Typed bonuses do not.
So if an ability modifier is an untyped bonus, then it will stack with every other type of untyped bonus regardless the source.
Then you have the 3rd type of statement.
You can add X to Y as a Z type bonus.
The type of the bonus is Z. It doesn't matter that it comes from X, or that you have another bonus that also comes from X.
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Andrew: The problem is that you are classifying several different things as the same thing.
If you get a bonus to initiative from a feat, is that a feat bonus? How about, if, instead of being a flat +4, like Improved Initiative, it gave a bonus to your initiative equal to your Dex mod?
Is the source of the bonus, in this case, the feat, call it "Greater Initiative", or your Dex mod? If it is your Dex mod, then it cannot add to Initiative, since your Initiative already uses your Dex mod to begin with.
So, is Initiative a Dex check or a Charisma check, if you have Noble Scion of War? Would a Circlet of Persuasion add to your Initiative if you had Noble Scion of War?
Kinevon, I don't think we can deal in hypotheticals, because you're assuming they wouldn't be written with the rules in mind.
Stacking the same stat is already cheesey, and the problem would only continue to get worse as more options for doing so arise.
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Andrew: The problem is that you are classifying several different things as the same thing.
If you get a bonus to initiative from a feat, is that a feat bonus? How about, if, instead of being a flat +4, like Improved Initiative, it gave a bonus to your initiative equal to your Dex mod?
Is the source of the bonus, in this case, the feat, call it "Greater Initiative", or your Dex mod? If it is your Dex mod, then it cannot add to Initiative, since your Initiative already uses your Dex mod to begin with.
So, is Initiative a Dex check or a Charisma check, if you have Noble Scion of War? Would a Circlet of Persuasion add to your Initiative if you had Noble Scion of War?
According to Andrew's definition as I understand it, Greater Initiative does nothing if it adds your Dex mod to initiative and you do not have Noble Scion(War) or a similar replacement.
Yes initiative is an ability check, yes Circlet applies to your initiative with the aforementioned feat. The part that doesn't stack as as I understand under Andrew's statements are the bonus types. So feats don't stack unless they state otherwise or obviously should, (In this case Greater Initiative seems the logical followup to Improved, perhaps a bit fancier), but if you named it something different and gave it a campaign specific flavor, perhaps it wouldn't. I don't know his exact thought process, this is as I understand it. Similarly, when you add an "untyped" ability score bonus to AC/Saves/Trip/etc., Andrew states that the type is the ability score providing the bonus. So the Paladin ability adds a "Charisma" bonus to saves, and thus would not stack with an ability that also added a "Charisma" bonus to saves. Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse both add "Dexterity" bonuses to Trip, and thus would not stack under his apparent mindset.
Short of it: According to his mindset as I see it, and one that has been brought to me in game, like Insight, Competence, Dodge, Armor, Sacred, etc., Ability scores that do not grant those types of bonuses grant typed "Ability" bonuses, such as Fury's Fall granting a "Dexterity" bonus to trip attempts, and would not stack with like typed bonuses. I disagree with it personally, but I believe that is what he is expressing.
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Wasn't this explained before by Mike or some one else from Paizo in another post?
I remembered something about how adding CHA twice to dex works was explained using a paladin and oracle?
Something like if one ability says in place of and the other says add, they both work, but if both abilities say add, only the highest will work out?
Can't quite remember which thread...
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Andrew: The problem is that you are classifying several different things as the same thing.
If you get a bonus to initiative from a feat, is that a feat bonus? How about, if, instead of being a flat +4, like Improved Initiative, it gave a bonus to your initiative equal to your Dex mod?
Is the source of the bonus, in this case, the feat, call it "Greater Initiative", or your Dex mod? If it is your Dex mod, then it cannot add to Initiative, since your Initiative already uses your Dex mod to begin with.
So, is Initiative a Dex check or a Charisma check, if you have Noble Scion of War? Would a Circlet of Persuasion add to your Initiative if you had Noble Scion of War?
I'm not classifying things as the same thing.
You guys keep harping on source, and source doesn't matter as long as the bonus is a different type.
The same Monk ability adds both a dodge and an untyped bonus to AC. Those both come from the same source.
The only bonus that matters for what the source is, is Dodge. Because Dodge stacks with other Dodge bonuses, you can't gain multiple Dodge bonuses from the same source.
In this case, it doesn't matter if you have a feat, class ability, or other that grants you a Charisma bonus to AC.
All that matters is that if that bonus is a Charisma Bonus, it won't stack with other Charisma bonuses. If it says "Add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to AC," you are adding your Charisma modifier as a bonus, and it won't stack with another Charisma bonus to your AC. If it says, "Add your Charisma modifier as a Deflection bonus to your AC," then it would stack with the other bonus. Because this is not a Charisma bonus. It is now a Deflection bonus.
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Wasn't this explained before by Mike or some one else from Paizo in another post?
I remembered something about how adding CHA twice to dex works was explained using a paladin and oracle?
Something like if one ability says in place of and the other says add, they both work, but if both abilities say add, only the highest will work out?
Can't quite remember which thread...
Nobody from Paizo, as far as I'm aware, has clarified this.
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Andrew: The problem is that you are classifying several different things as the same thing.
If you get a bonus to initiative from a feat, is that a feat bonus? How about, if, instead of being a flat +4, like Improved Initiative, it gave a bonus to your initiative equal to your Dex mod?
Is the source of the bonus, in this case, the feat, call it "Greater Initiative", or your Dex mod? If it is your Dex mod, then it cannot add to Initiative, since your Initiative already uses your Dex mod to begin with.
So, is Initiative a Dex check or a Charisma check, if you have Noble Scion of War? Would a Circlet of Persuasion add to your Initiative if you had Noble Scion of War?
According to Andrew's definition as I understand it, Greater Initiative does nothing if it adds your Dex mod to initiative and you do not have Noble Scion(War) or a similar replacement.
Yes initiative is an ability check, yes Circlet applies to your initiative with the aforementioned feat. The part that doesn't stack as as I understand under Andrew's statements are the bonus types. So feats don't stack unless they state otherwise or obviously should, (In this case Greater Initiative seems the logical followup to Improved, perhaps a bit fancier), but if you named it something different and gave it a campaign specific flavor, perhaps it wouldn't. I don't know his exact thought process, this is as I understand it. Similarly, when you add an "untyped" ability score bonus to AC/Saves/Trip/etc., Andrew states that the type is the ability score providing the bonus. So the Paladin ability adds a "Charisma" bonus to saves, and thus would not stack with an ability that also added a "Charisma" bonus to saves. Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse both add "Dexterity" bonuses to Trip, and thus would not stack under his apparent mindset.
Short of it: According to his mindset as I see it, and one that has been brought to me in game, like Insight, Competence, Dodge, Armor, Sacred, etc., Ability scores that do not grant those...
That's pretty much what I'm saying.
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If you look up the rules on Ability Scores, it defines Ability Modifier as a bonus. It doesn't say its an untyped bonus.
Doesn;t thios mean it is untyped?
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Nobody from Paizo, as far as I'm aware, has clarified this.Wasn't this explained before by Mike or some one else from Paizo in another post?
I remembered something about how adding CHA twice to dex works was explained using a paladin and oracle?
Something like if one ability says in place of and the other says add, they both work, but if both abilities say add, only the highest will work out?
Can't quite remember which thread...
I found the posts, they are by James Jacobs on his ask him anything thread. Since it is not an official thread/answer... I guess yap, still no official answer then.
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Wouldn't that example prove his point. Aren't they saying that since you couldnt get the bonus again you instead get a +1 so the feat is actually worth something?
I am not sure what the answer is, but I think Andrew has the right idea and one I am expecting them to go with. You can only stack attribute bonuses if they are different bonus types. So you could have Wis bonus to AC and a armor bonus to AC equal to your wisdom but not Wisdom bonus to AC twice.
Now an interesting case would be if they said add your Wisdom bonus to AC as an untyped bonus, which would technically fall into that category.
Extremely insignificant, given the rarity of antimagic fields, but regardless EX and SU are different types of sources, not bonuses. What happens? If the Sacred Fist bonus was higher, it'd drop down to the Monk bonus. Otherwise, nothing at all.
Louis is right - Divine Protection is a great example of how you *can't* add your Charisma modifier twice. Great example of an OP feat as well, but that's entirely another matter.
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I'm confused why we're still talking about sources. It's not the source of the bonus that determines it stacks, it's the type. You guys are kind of confusing yourselves talking about the "source" and it's really irrelevant.
The question here is really whether adding an ability modifier is adding a bonus of that ability's type when it doesn't specify a different type. For instance, does adding your dex modifier mean it's a dex bonus, if it wasn't assigned a bonus type already (such as deflection, dodge, competence, insight, etc)?
I can't find anything that says that's how things work. There's no "ability bonus" or anything akin to that listed in the CRB. Leads me to think that it's untyped until someone rules otherwise. But I would not be surprised if someone came out and said these untyped ability modifier bonuses don't stack.