Monk AC Bonus and Sacred Fist AC Bonus


Rules Questions

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So if we are allowed to split class features at will can I split off Fatigue from Rage and Bloodrage so I dont have to take it. I mean if I can break abilities into neat pieces why wouldn't i?

Silver Crusade

See <here> and subsequent discussion.

Especially <this one> for the "effective rule":

Mark Seifter wrote:
Joe M. wrote:

Looks like the effect of this may be to bring stat-based bonuses under normal bonus type stacking rules. All untyped stat based bonuses are treated as a bonus of that stat type. So you have your Dex bonus to init, and if something else gives you *another* Dex bonus to init, they don't stack (per usual stacking rules).

Sound right? (Haven't been following the issue closely, reading/writing from phone, may be off).

(Confusion may be thinking of this as question of untyped bonus source. Easier to think that those "untyped" bonuses now have a type: a Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha type bonus, depending.)

That is definitely how I am going to think of them in my own mind too, yes. But officially, they are still technically untyped.


No. They both draw from Wisdom. The Deflection bonus from SF and the untyped bonus from Monk will, but the AC equal to Wisdom doesn't.


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Ok so... still confused because the Design Team's post is full of double speak.

So if you have a bonus equal to.. it stacks.. except when it doesn't because suddenly it counts as the ability even when they just said it didn't....How does that make sense?

They are saying a Wis bonus is an ability score typed bonus.. fine makes the monk and sacred fist absolutely useless above really lower level games and only if you give them 18 in Wis as a default...But if an ability or feat or spell.. whatever grants a bonus EQUAL to something that bonus is untyped and will stack. Ok makes sense its fine... except then they go on to say, unless it stacks with something else that gives you a bonus equal to the same ability score which then the first bonus is treated as if it were a ability score typed bonus.. except that.. how can stack in the first place?

Yes they used Divine Protection and Paladin as an example but doesn't matter. What they are saying is anything related to ability scores never stack. Just say that clearly... like really just say it.


Sworn of Cayden Caylen wrote:
So if we are allowed to split class features at will can I split off Fatigue from Rage and Bloodrage so I dont have to take it. I mean if I can break abilities into neat pieces why wouldn't i?

Because that would be asinine. It would also be a willful misinterpretation of the rules.

Part of the ability doesn't work, namely double-dipping Wisdom to AC. The other part still works.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
Sworn of Cayden Caylen wrote:
So if we are allowed to split class features at will can I split off Fatigue from Rage and Bloodrage so I dont have to take it. I mean if I can break abilities into neat pieces why wouldn't i?

Because that would be asinine. It would also be a willful misinterpretation of the rules.

Part of the ability doesn't work, namely double-dipping Wisdom to AC. The other part still works.

And what if I am immune to Fatigue, what if I am playing a 3.P with a Warforged who is immune to Fatique


It's clear: Does an ability say 'Add (Attribute) to (Score)'? If yes, then another ability that says 'Add (Same Attribute) to (Same Score)' doesn't stack. Untyped bonuses equal to (Attribute) aren't the same thing as (Attribute). They still don't stack with other untyped bonuses.


Then you don't suffer Fatigue. You still have Rage. Go you.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
It's clear: Does an ability say 'Add (Attribute) to (Score)'? If yes, then another ability that says 'Add (Same Attribute) to (Same Score)' doesn't stack. Untyped bonuses equal to (Attribute) aren't the same thing as (Attribute). They still don't stack with other untyped bonuses.
Design Team's Post Joe Linked too wrote:
For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

So right there they say that anytime you would have a bonus equal to an ability score, it will not stack with that ability score.


I'm not seeing what's unclear about that. My wording's a little wonky, but I've been up for three days.

Also, learn to quote properly. I didn't link to anything.


You are right I messed that up. I scrolled up and at a glance I saw your name and the link, but it was Joe that linked it, sorry.

Its not unclear I am saying its confusing. It is saying that if you have an ability that says Bonus Equal to her 'Ability Score' bonus (if any) to 'Whatever' it is to be treated as 'Ability Score' bonus (if any) rather then the equal to, meaning it will not stack as both are direct ability score bonuses.

I am saying it now treats all class features, feats, spells, etc that say they are giving bonus equal to an ability score and would normally have stacked with that exact same ability score will not stack now because the untyped bonus equal to that ability is not treated as if it comes from that ability score directly.


It means the Oradin builds are dead. :(


I'm currently playing an Oradin. And I can't think of anything about him that is affected by this. Please explain?


Nevermind, I read the bit about paladins wrong, I think.

Shadow Lodge

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So, I'm confused, how does this interact with abilities that "replace" x ability with y ability? For instance, Fury's Fall+Agile Maneuvers? If I have a 12Str and an 18Dex, does using Agile Maneuvers(while I have Fury's Fall) actually lower my tripping CMB?

Silver Crusade

EvilPaladin wrote:
So, I'm confused, how does this interact with abilities that "replace" x ability with y ability? For instance, Fury's Fall+Agile Maneuvers? If I have a 12Str and an 18Dex, does using Agile Maneuvers(while I have Fury's Fall) actually lower my tripping CMB?

See <here> and subsequent discussion for the main conversation about all this. You're not the only one to wonder about "replace" abilities.

For the specific question, confirmed that Fury's Fall & Agile Maneuvers don't stack: <here> together with <here>.


prototype00 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
prototype00 wrote:

NOOooooooOOO!!! MY BUILD IS RUINED! Ruined I say!

No not really, the Monk/Sacred Fist is still the most powerful iteration of the Unarmed style fighter-ish. It was a nice bonus, but now that it is settled, most DMs won't take as much umbrage when it is brought to their table.

I do feel sorry for all the Inquisitors though, but judging from how people were constantly comparing them favorably in role to the Warpriest, they needed to be taken down a peg.

prototype00

I still think they are better than the warpriest overall, and that is before I started to stack ability scores. :)

Hey, Base Warpriest I'm inclined to agree with you. But Sacred Fist? I think the damage output is at least even, if not better (Inquisitor might still edge out in non-combat situations).

prototype00

Fair enough. I was just thinking of the base warpriest.


Ascalaphus wrote:
*shrug* There have been rumours that double-dipping the same ability wasn't kosher for years. If you do it anyway, you know you're in dubious territory.

There are always rumors (disagreements) about how a rule works so by that logic someone is always in dubious territory.


wraithstrike wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
*shrug* There have been rumours that double-dipping the same ability wasn't kosher for years. If you do it anyway, you know you're in dubious territory.
There are always rumors (disagreements) about how a rule works so by that logic someone is always in dubious territory.

It's been a while since I've seen any commoner questions. That class might be safe for play with that logic. ;)

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