Ok will do ',)
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Teleportation is not considered movement. In neither dimension door or teleport do they use the word movement, it says transported too.
Grappled does not prevent you from disappearing and reappearing. Trying to get off a spell or SLA vs. a 10 + CMB + spell level may prevent you from casting or activating such an ability but if successful it will go off despite grapple or being in a whirlwind.
I have a druid specifically build around whirlwind. He is a blight druid so anyone in his whirlwind needs to make some fun Fort saves and he has Powerful Shape to pick up creatures his size. He is otherwise a caster druid with a very high wisdom (to boost DC on whirlwind) so plays as a summoner that occasionally turns into a whirlwind and picks people up.
So far the best he did was juggle 3 hill giants.
While I find it unusual you can basically grab a tornado,
Have you not heard the story of my good friend Pecos Bill?
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So my suggestion is to shapeshift into either a large megaraptor -5 large natural attacks or allorsaurus -5 huge sized natural attacks.
Here's proof this is possible.
dat Kingdom Heart music.
Here's proof this is possible.
High Level Mythic is the gold standard, not the average.
Seems to me like the root problem here is our conception of what an air elemental *is*. It is not an incorporeal creature. It is not the wind. Depending on size, it does have some DR, but you *can* hit it with a sword, and you *can* grapple it.
Off the top of my head, I would have thought an air elemental was like a wraith - incorporeal - especially in whirlwind form. But it isn't.
It's so counter-intuitive. But a lot of stuff is like that.
I would have thought that the whirlwind form might be treated like a swarm. No go on that front either.
What about the DR 5 from the elemental did your master take it in count ? :)
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I'm pretty sure that if the grapple is legit, the auto death is legit too. I don't have the CMB to break the grapple, and he can deal more HP damage than I can sustain. It IS auto death, which is why I was hoping for some way around the grapple entirely.
1) If your druid is level 12+ he he get DR 5/-. It applies to grapple damage;
2) Nothing in the grapple rules say that you can't eject him.
Ejecting require you to move? No.
It require 2 hands? No.
So it can be done. The GM is arguing that a whirlwind can be grappled. Fine. But as he applies strict RAW he should apply it to both combatants.
Note: the fall will not break the grapple, but your opponent will get some falling damage and end prone.
3) "Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.", so a -2 to his CMv and CMD. The +5 for being the one that started the grapple apply only to attempts to maintain it, not against your attempts to break it.
BTW, what was he using to damage you? Unless he was using armor spikes or unarmed combat he would have suffered from the -4 to the grapple checks for not using 2 hands.
4) Revert to air elemental from in at the top of the whirlwind form (when you change form you can occupy any of the squares you occupied previously). Now you are several feet in the air and your foe has to cling to you to maintain the grapple. 1 hand used to cling to you. 1 hand to maintain the grapple with a -4 modifier (plus the whirlwind modifiers). A -6 total to his CMB.
Actually there are no rules to cling to someone mid air. You cling to a item, not a creature.
5) Change shape to a fire elemental. Grapple+burn damage=Ouch!
1-2 slam attacks + burn damage, burn damage from grappling (actually for hitting you, but it is the same thing). Possibly even more damage from catching fire.
There are ways to counter your GM tactic, it is not an automatic death.
BTW, for the future, take whirlwind form, move over the enemy square, pick it up, rise him into the sky, then eject him and move on (or up) . You are faster than most opponents, it is hard to pursue you and grapple you.
I'm pretty sure that if the grapple is legit, the auto death is legit too. I don't have the CMB to break the grapple, and he can deal more HP damage than I can sustain. It IS auto death, which is why I was hoping for some way around the grapple entirely.
1) If your druid is level 12+ he he get DR 5/-. It applies to grapple damage;
2) Nothing in the grapple rules say that you can't eject him.
Ejecting require you to move? No.
It require 2 hands? No.
So it can be done. The GM is arguing that a whirlwind can be grappled. Fine. But as he applies strict RAW he should apply it to both combatants.Note: the fall will not break the grapple, but your opponent will get some falling damage and end prone.
3) "Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls.", so a -2 to his CMv and CMD. The +5 for being the one that started the grapple apply only to attempts to maintain it, not against your attempts to break it.
BTW, what was he using to damage you? Unless he was using armor spikes or unarmed combat he would have suffered from the -4 to the grapple checks for not using 2 hands.4) Revert to air elemental from in at the top of the whirlwind form (when you change form you can occupy any of the squares you occupied previously). Now you are several feet in the air and your foe has to cling to you to maintain the grapple. 1 hand used to cling to you. 1 hand to maintain the grapple with a -4 modifier (plus the whirlwind modifiers). A -6 total to his CMB.
Actually there are no rules to cling to someone mid air. You cling to a item, not a creature.
5) Change shape to a fire elemental. Grapple+burn damage=Ouch!
1-2 slam attacks + burn damage, burn damage from grappling (actually for hitting you, but it is the same thing). Possibly even more damage from catching fire.There are ways to counter your GM tactic, it is not an automatic death.
BTW, for the future, take whirlwind form, move over the enemy square,...
He is Level 10
My go to solution as a DM myself would be:
Turn into something bigger. Like a rhinoceros. Go ahead, grapple me now.
Transforming into a creature with a better grapple check didn't occur to me. I didn't realize that such a bonus came from wild shape. Hmm. While typing this I'm reading the rules and I don't see anything in wild shape or beast shape which grants me the grapple bonus of the creature I become. The size bonus would help (+1) and STR bonus a bit too (+2). But that doesn't get me anywhere near what I need.
However after reading this now I'm confused. You *don't* take on all the stats of said animal? You continue to use your own and simply gain strength and whatnot? If that is the case a Druid built to grapple would carry over that modifier to wild shape forms that can't (or shouldn't) be capable of grappling.
For instance, my example of a Rhino. Yes I get that a successful grapple by the enemy has occurred and you are both in the grappled state. What are *you the Rhino* using to grapple with that really high CMB? Or better yet, turning into a Behemoth Hippopotamus would *not* grant you its default CMD of 30 due in most part to its size alone?
No, you don't take on the stats of the form you wild-shape into. Yes, you continue to use your own and simply gain strength and whatnot.
However, you do take on the shape of the creature. So if you're a rhino you don't have a free hand (or any hands) so I don't think you can initiate a grapple by RAW.
If you are grappled:
...... If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD).
You also do not gain the skill bonuses of said Animal/Elemental? A Large Air Elemental has +15 Escape Artist and you are getting a couple mod points of dex added already...
No, you don't take on the stats of the form you wild-shape into. Yes, you continue to use your own and simply gain strength and whatnot.
However, you do take on the shape of the creature. So if you're a rhino you don't have a free hand (or any hands) so I don't think you can initiate a grapple by RAW.
So how do you make an opposing grapple check if you no longer have anything to maintain a grapple with? Does the grappler now auto win every check?
You also do not gain the skill bonuses of said Animal/Elemental? A Large Air Elemental has +15 Escape Artist and you are getting a couple mod points of dex added already...
A typical large air elemental has +15 Escape Artist because he puts his skill points into Escape Artist. A druid doesn't automatically gain Escape Artist skill points when he changes shape, any more than he loses the skills he already has.
So how do you make an opposing grapple check if you no longer have anything to maintain a grapple with? Does the grappler now auto win every check?
You can still make a CMB check to break free of a grapple, and someone trying to grapple you still has to beat your CMD.
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
You aren't just taking the form of the creature, you *are* the creature. The bonuses provided by the Beast Shape/Elemental Body spells in the Wild Shape dialog are making you an even better version of said creature. You should be using every stat for it straight from a Beastiary.
Everyone seems to think you get Natural attacks but retain all of your own stats and skills, leading to situations like (still using my previous example) becoming a Behemoth Hippopotamus that still uses the Druids base strength of 10 (16 thanks to Beast Shape 3 bonus) but still a far cry from the creatures actual strength of 29.
What becomes the point of turning into a creature if you don't become fast, strong or tough like it?
Everyone seems to think you get Natural attacks but retain all of your own stats and skills
Everyone who knows the rules of Pathfinder, yes. People who play D&D 3.5 do it another way.
leading to situations like (still using my previous example) becoming a Behemoth Hippopotamus that still uses the Druids base strength of 10 (16 thanks to Beast Shape 3 bonus) but still a far cry from the creatures actual strength of 29.
Yup. That's why you don't make a wild-shaping melee druid with a strength of 10. If you play as a druid with an initial strength of 18, a one level barbarian dip for +4 rage strength, a couple of points of strength gain from leveling up, and cast Bull's Strength on yourself, you have a strength of 34 or so as a Behemoth Hippopotamus. You also gain the hippo's massive damage dice. This means you can be a full caster and have an animal companion and do damage on a par with a fighter while having better skills and also being able to turn into a bird for scouting or an elemental for flying or burrowing. This is why Pathfinder druids are generally considered a bit overpowered.
What becomes the point of turning into a creature if you don't become fast, strong or tough like it?
You do become fast, in terms of movement speed: (Page 211)
"A polymorph spell transforms your physicalbody to take on the shape of another creature. While these
spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10
bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of
the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell
allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type,
granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and
a bonus to your natural armor... If the form grants a lesser
ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume."
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back.
School transmutation (polymorph)
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
In short, you do NOT turn into a creature when you use a polymorph effect such as Wild Shape. You turn into an approximation of that creature with a specific list of abilities and powers that modify or replace your natural abilities and powers. If you start out as a weak Druid you are going to be a weak Earth Elemental.
Back in 3.5 this was not the case and it was widely abused.
You also do not gain the skill bonuses of said Animal/Elemental? A Large Air Elemental has +15 Escape Artist and you are getting a couple mod points of dex added already...A typical large air elemental has +15 Escape Artist because he puts his skill points into Escape Artist. A druid doesn't automatically gain Escape Artist skill points when he changes shape, any more than he loses the skills he already has.
I respectfully completely disagree. The Air Elemental has a natural +15 to escape artist because it's made of air. not because it woke up one morning and decided to spec Escape Artist.
Where does is state that turning into a creature does not include gaining or losing any/all of the relevant skills and abilities? I can understand retaining all your personal mental stats and abilities/skills, but your physical body is changing. Besides something that flies or swims, what good does it do you? You gain no natural skills, won't fight better, won't move better or survive any better if you literally just assume its form.
*EDIT
Thank You Gauss! That is exactly the info I couldn't find. :)
So basically my entire interpretation is still the 3.5 version of it all (which I've seen Druid builds for too) but Pathfinder nerfed it? I can't believe how many changes I've missed! It's so infuriating at times...
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Large Air Elemental Skills:
Skills Acrobatics +15, Escape Artist +15, Fly +21, Knowledge
(planes) +5, Perception +11, Stealth +11
Ability Scores: Str 18 (+4), Dex 25 (+7), Con 16 (+3), Int 6 (-2), Wis 11 (+0), Cha 11 (+0)
Now, we know that Air Elementals have Perfect fly skill and this one is large. That is +8 and -2 respectively.
We also know that Large creatures have a -4 penalty to stealth.
It has no racial skills or skill improving feats.
Air Elementals have Fly as a class skill.
Outsiders have a number of class skills and those are: Bluff, Craft, Kn. Planes, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. They also have 4 additional unspecified class skills depending on theme.
Of the 6 Air Elemental's skills only 2 are not automatically class skills so we can assume those two are theme related as per Outsiders.
So, now we know all the modifiers lets subtract all of them from the skills:
Acrobatics: 15-7-3 = 5
Escape Artist: 15-7-3 = 5
Fly: 21-7-8-(-2)-3 = 5
Kn. Planes: 5-(-2)-3 = 4
Perception: 11-0-3 = 8
Stealth: 11-7-(-4)-3 = 5
Total ranks required: 32
An Outsider gets 6+int in skill ranks per HD. In this case that is 4*8 = 32.
Looks like the Air Elemental did indeed purchase ranks in Escape Artist. They are not some flat bonus.
Yeah Frozen Codzilla has been nerfed. There are quiet a few changes and when I first switched over from 3.5 I was getting a lot of things wrong.
Part of Codzilla being nerfed was so they could not easily outfight martials with a few buffs.
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It made it so you could play a melee druid or a caster druid but it is much more difficult to do both. Also what abilities you can gain is limited by the spell so even if some monster comes out with incredibly awesome EX abilities, you can only use the ones from the spell.
I still play druids, have been since 1st Ed, but the balance Paizo brought while not perfect is much better than in the other game.
I'm just disappointed that in a scenario like we are discussing that changing shape into something that is extremely large or strong doesn't give the druid enough of an advantage to escape a simple Grapple.
Like I am just imagining being locked up in a grapple, wild shaping into an rhinoceros and *still* being grappled by that pesky humanoid who at this point is just hanging off your leg...
I guess the only solution would be to shift into a Huge creature and use the 2 size category difference to cancel the grapple?
Meaning the druid could just as well turn into a Gargantuan Tyrannosaurus Rex and still be on the losing end of the grapple from the human wrapped around his toe.
(yes I know they can't technically do it, but it serves my point)
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A level 6 druid turning into a (Large) rhino gets +3 to CMB (+2 from Str increase, +1 size bonus). The druid has a BAB of +4, and a combat druid will likely have Str 16, for a rhino-shape CMB of +10. The rhino's CMB is also +10.
A level 8 druid turning into a (Huge) elephant gets +5 to CMB (+3 Str, +2 size). BAB +6, Str 18 (assume at least a +2 belt), for a CMB of +15, which is behind the elephant's CMB of +20 but not by any means useless or puny, especially when we note that at level 8 the druid is 3 HD and two points of BAB behind the elephant. Bring the druid up to level 11 and assume a +4 Str belt at that level and the difference is +18 vs 20.
A level 12 druid turning into a Huge earth elemental gets +6 to CMB (+4 str, +2 size), which starting from +9 BAB and Str 20 yields +19 to CMB compared to the elemental's +21 (and note identical Str scores: 28).
If a BBEG can grapple a combat druid in animal form, there is a good chance the BBEG could grapple the animal the druid is emulating. I do not have a problem with this given that high level characters should be able to achieve truly fantastic things. If you find it strains credulity, I would recommend doubling the size modifiers to CMB (or just grapple) instead of placing an outright size cap. But as Lifat says note that this almost always hurts the PCs more than their adversaries.
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Keep in mind some monks, Lore Warden Fighters, Tetori monks and Brutal Pugilist Barbs can grapple most of the monsters in the Bestiaries at the appropriate CRs.
I threw a Tetori at Beastmass and not only could he grapple everything in that thread his CMB was so high nothing could cast while grappled pretty much shutting down most of the monsters ability to escape.
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Me: UGH. OK, I eject him!
DM: You can't. You have to succeed on an opposed grapple check to break free of him.
Me: But this is my whirlwind power to eject people! It doesn't have any conditions on it; it just works!
DM: Grapple imposes conditions, sorry.
...
OK friends, what is wrong with any of that above?
The bit where the DM says you can't eject the grappler is clearly wrong. Grapple does impose some conditions, but those are very clearly specified. Here are the rules about what you can do if you are grappled:
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
So you can attempt to break the grapple in order to move, if you want to, but that's not all you can do. In fact, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform. Ejecting the grappler from your whirlwind (a free action you can perform whenever you wish) certainly comes under that.
Me: So what can I do?
DM: Nothing. You're frozen in air, and he deals damage every round with the grapple until you're dead.
As stated above, it's not true that there's nothing you can do. In addition, the grappler doesn't automatically deal damage to you - he has to succeed at a grapple check (as a standard action) each round to do it. Conversely, you do deal your slam damage to him automatically each round, as specified in the whirlwind rules:
An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round.
Still me: Fine. I fly up to drop him.
DM: You can't. You have to beat a grapple check to move.
Me: BUT I'M A FLYING AIR ELEMENTAL. How does a grapple stop me from that?!?!
DM: Grapple rules, that's how.
However, in my opinion, this is your DM's biggest error - not applying rule 0. The rules are guidelines that need to be interpreted. While it's true that the rules state that "grappled creatures cannot move", this presupposes that the grappler is physically capable of holding them in place. If the grappler is "picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds", then they cannot stop the whirlwind from moving, as thy have no purchase point by which to do so. Grappling is not some magical power of non-movement, it's a physical ability.
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Callum, I think you made the same misinterpretation I did when I first read the OP.
The DM states the enemy moves up and grapples him first.
The elemental Druid never had the chance to try and pick him up before the grapple was initiated. It means he couldn't eject him, at least on the first turn.
After that though, most of us are in agreement that the grappler needs to make reflex saves to avoid getting caught up. Then things might change a bit.
Cheers
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Did you know that you can grapple someone with an arrow shot from a bow and use hatamutsu strike to instantly teleport them to you, and locked in your grasp? Did you know that you can then shoot them with that bow while grappled?
Did you know that a goblin feral gnasher barbarian can get an infinite attack chain going with grappling?
just to clear this up, the feat is Hamatula strike, just wanted to get that out there as Hamatulatsu Strike is very different.
Callum, I think you made the same misinterpretation I did when I first read the OP.
The DM states the enemy moves up and grapples him first.
While the OP does support that sequence of events, later in the thread the OPer clarifies things:
In point of fact, the bad guy virtually *welcomed* the attack -- I moved through his square, he took damage and was swept up. He didn't bother to grapple until he was already in the whirlwind, taking damage, failing all saves.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If the grappler's CMB was so high that the druid had no effective chance to escape(I hear "need a nat 20") then it's unlikely that the druid would be able to concentrate enough to get off a freedom of movement spell while grappled. (Concentration DC 10+grappler's CMB+spell level(4))
So if you choose to do this tactic in the future, remember to cast freedom of movement before you sweep victims up...then their attempts to grapple auto-fail and your GM loses her neat trick.
My understanding of your situation is this: The bad guy has such a high CMB compared to you that your checks basically aren't worth doing, and he's only going to fail to grapple on a nat 1. He was doing more unarmed damage per round than you, and he had more hp so you weren't going to win the battle of attrition. Does that seem accurate?
I mean, one could envision a casty druid having cruddy Str and Dex, and thus only having a CMB of +10 or so in Large Air Elemental form at 10th level. Conversely the druid could be fighting a, say, 14th level barbarian BBEG with grapple stuff whose gets a CMB of +25-30 or so. It's entirely feasible for the druid to be super outclassed when it comes to grappling. However if you've got nothing else it's still worth rolling out fishing for 1s and 20s.
I agree that changing forms was the way to go. A huge animal with rake (Allosaurus maybe?) would have seriously upped your per round damage, as well as allowed the rest of your party(where were they?) to help beat down the threat.
If he moved up and grappled shouldn't that have provoked an AoO... That probably would have made no difference in the end, I suppose.
He probably had Improved Grapple too, I suppose.
mud elemental. Paralyze!
True but maybe gm will let him.