You're right: it won't be popular at all. In fact, it's a pretty sure bet you'll completely derail this topic with that kind of post. Do yourself a favor and delete it.
I'm not trying to derail anything - that seems to me to very clearly be one of the 'irons' Paizo has in the fire... its not occurring by happenstance, its occurring as a result of very conscientious and deliberate planning, something which I'm certain involves much discussion and deliberation... i.e. time. Manhours. In the interest of being inclusive and accepting of all sincerely offered viewpoints, even unpopular ones, why would I feel the need to censor my own?
I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
I think his point is that there are different perspectives on what 'successful' is. I have no doubt that Paizo wants to do well financially, for instance, just as I have no doubt that there are certain things they'd never do, even if doing those things would reap greater financial rewards... their definition of being successful, great and even 'world-leading' may well be different from another company.
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I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
I suspect some equivocation on "best" there. To hopefully clarify:
I think it's a good idea to do the best you can. That doesn't have anything to do with how well other people do it though.
I agree paizo should strive to be the best they can. Why do you think they should strive to be better than WotC. That was my question. Maybe I just misunderstood your first post.
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Wiggz, that doesn't even make sense.
Your statement implies that the designers, developers, and editors at Paizo are spending X minutes per day specifically to focus on "LGBT flag waving"* instead of spending those X minutes "checking for rules compatibility" or "editing books" or "answering FAQs."
It's like you think there's some extra mental process involved in being sensitive to LGBT issues, instead of it being a trained part of your thinking. An editor doesn't read a book, then do another pass to check specifically for LGBT issues, and another to check for profanity, and another for rules language. It's all part of the same process--the editor reads the text, and if there's anything that sets off a mental flag**, something gets done about it.
* aka treating LGBT people (which includes many people on staff) like they're people... instead ignoring, marginalizing, or suppressing them.
** Whether that mental flag is "I don't think that's the correct name for the feat they're citing," or "we don't normally include f-bombs in our books," or "maybe this significant NPC shouldn't be a gay stereotype."
Yes. We are absolutely doing things to try to let us do a better job on Occult Adventures.Figured I'd ask here since the devs are looking at this one.
I've asked this before, but no one ever answered it. The one thing I have on my mind is, with GenCon coming earlier, and the ACG being what it is because of rushing, is anything going to be looked at so that Occult Adventures doesn't suffer similar issues? I like Paizo, but I don't want to buy a hardcover that will have the same (or more) editing errors that the ACG had. The ACG may have been a singular drop in quality, but it is one that has the chance of repeating itself again next year. And I've been waiting for psionics to come out, so I am a lot more invested in Occult Adventures than the ACG.
So what can we expect from Occult Adventures and avoiding the same editing issues that plague the ACG? Is GenCon coming early being looked at as a potential issue?
Hopefully that includes bringing Brandon Hodge over on the night before the book ships to the printer (whenever that may be) to have him exorcise any lingering, error-writing spirits that could be present on Occult Adventures to ensure a smooth print run. ;-)
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I think his point is that there are different perspectives on what 'successful' is. I have no doubt that Paizo wants to do well financially, for instance, just as I have no doubt that there are certain things they'd never do, even if doing those things would reap greater financial rewards... their definition of being successful, great and even 'world-leading' may well be different from another company.I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
Fair points, for both of you. I will admit that my own definition of success greatly colors my view of others' successes.
I just don't think their own view of success would include allowing all the issues that have become commonplace. At the risk of sounding like a motivational speaker, "The World's Leading <insert widget here> Company" is how you present yourself, not necessarily what you are.
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Wiggz, that doesn't even make sense.
Your statement implies that the designers, developers, and editors at Paizo are spending X minutes per day specifically to focus on "LGBT flag waving"* instead of spending those X minutes "checking for rules compatibility" or "editing books" or "answering FAQs."
It's like you think there's some extra mental process involved in being sensitive to LGBT issues, instead of it being a trained part of your thinking. An editor doesn't read a book, then do another pass to check specifically for LGBT issues, and another to check for profanity, and another for rules language. It's all part of the same process--the editor reads the text, and if there's anything that sets off a mental flag**, something gets done about it.
* aka treating LGBT people (which includes many people on staff) like they're people... instead ignoring, marginalizing, or suppressing them.
** Whether that mental flag is "I don't think that's the correct name for the feat they're citing," or "we don't normally include f-bombs in our books," or "maybe this significant NPC shouldn't be a gay stereotype."
I think that's a point of disconnect, that the only way to treat LGBT people as if they were people is by calling out their LGBT nature... whereas I am of the belief that you don't need to single out a person's sexuality in order to treat them like a person, that by singling it out you are in fact pointing out their exceptional nature rather than encouraging equal treatment. I live for the day when walking into a room and announcing 'I'm gay' or 'I'm black' or whatever generates the same shrug of indifference as announcing 'I'm straight' or 'I'm white' does.
Now I can see this discussion certainly moving the thread off in another direction as suggested, and that was not my intent, so I don't want to debate the social merit, implications or benefits/detractions that spending time keeping attention on LGBT issues might offer... I'm merely making the point that its clearly a conscious and concerted effort, a deliberate priority, not the result of mere happenstance - a point which has been publicly and proudly stated may times in the past.
I think his point is that there are different perspectives on what 'successful' is. I have no doubt that Paizo wants to do well financially, for instance, just as I have no doubt that there are certain things they'd never do, even if doing those things would reap greater financial rewards... their definition of being successful, great and even 'world-leading' may well be different from another company.I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
Fair points, for both of you. I will admit that my own definition of success greatly colors my view of others' successes.
I just don't think their own view of success would include allowing all the issues that have become commonplace. At the risk of sounding like a motivational speaker, "The World's Leading <insert widget here> Company" is how you present yourself, not necessarily what you are.
I definitely agree with you that they'd be disappointed in the ACG issues. More so than any fan, I'd bet.
I think I just misunderstood what you wrote initially - I read it more as "paizo should try and outsell other publishers" rather than "paizo should strive to make their books better". Best to ignore me, I suspect. :p
Developer
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You're right: it won't be popular at all. In fact, it's a pretty sure bet you'll completely derail this topic with that kind of post. Do yourself a favor and delete it.I'm not trying to derail anything - that seems to me to very clearly be one of the 'irons' Paizo has in the fire... its not occurring by happenstance, its occurring as a result of very conscientious and deliberate planning, something which I'm certain involves much discussion and deliberation... i.e. time. Manhours. In the interest of being inclusive and accepting of all sincerely offered viewpoints, even unpopular ones, why would I feel the need to censor my own?
It takes zero additional "manhours" () to make a world that is open and inclusive.
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I can't get behind the idea that the reason is because you hired too many people.This won't be a popular response, but perhaps if the very clear priority of keeping the LGBT flag waving wasn't quite so front and center, if the social engineering and universal representation were left to the players and GM's themselves, the focus on these many other issues presented might be greater.
We can't get answers to any of dozens of questions in the FAQ, have classes coming out after months of playtests which immediately need tons of errata and the much-heralded Mythic ruleset is broken pretty much as soon as you get into the meat of it... but hey, we all know EXACTLY how much a sex-change potion will cost!
I'm not saying the two are related, but in earlier pathfinder materials, the focus wasn't so great, the constant LGBT banner wasn't so zealously waved and many of these issues weren't near so pronounced either. Can we skip the social agenda, cut the rules bloat and just get back to what Paizo has always been best at - telling great stories through gaming?
What is rules bloat is subjective, and rules can be sold to GM's and players. Don't make the mistake of thinking "what you like" is "best for business". That is a mistake I see far too often here. "Well in my games...." does not equate to "ok for the general public or good for Paizo".
That is why I try to debate from a neutral stance. Someone like myself would have more powerful options based on how I like to play, but I know that is not everyone so I don't try to push Paizo to make more powerful options. I like to play/GM to level 17, but many prefer to stop before that. I can list a number of reason of why it works for me, but that does not mean it is good for Paizo to push it.
Basically you are advocating what suits your games, but since Paizo is growing quickly under their current model that may not be best for them or us as a whole.
PS: Personally I think the mythic rules do need to be redone so we do agree on that. No, I am not expecting for it to happen.
It takes zero additional "manhours" () to make a world that is open and inclusive.You're right: it won't be popular at all. In fact, it's a pretty sure bet you'll completely derail this topic with that kind of post. Do yourself a favor and delete it.I'm not trying to derail anything - that seems to me to very clearly be one of the 'irons' Paizo has in the fire... its not occurring by happenstance, its occurring as a result of very conscientious and deliberate planning, something which I'm certain involves much discussion and deliberation... i.e. time. Manhours. In the interest of being inclusive and accepting of all sincerely offered viewpoints, even unpopular ones, why would I feel the need to censor my own?
The Elixir of Sex Change is a very tiny example of what I'm referencing. I'm assuming ti was written up, possibly a handful of drafts as I imagine most written work receives, reviewed by someone, possibly several someones as most written work is, some effort put into determining a proper gp cost for it and so on... and I imagine every step of the way that took some time. Not exhaustive amounts to be sure, but it adds up, especially when spread across numerous characters - NPC's and Iconics, items, story lines, etc.
Now, I'm assuming that the Elixir of Sex Change didn't magically appear on the printed page and I'm assuming its sole purpose was to make the world more open and inclusive, no? That suggests your statement isn't entirely true.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I think his point is that there are different perspectives on what 'successful' is. I have no doubt that Paizo wants to do well financially, for instance, just as I have no doubt that there are certain things they'd never do, even if doing those things would reap greater financial rewards... their definition of being successful, great and even 'world-leading' may well be different from another company.I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
Fair points, for both of you. I will admit that my own definition of success greatly colors my view of others' successes.
I just don't think their own view of success would include allowing all the issues that have become commonplace. At the risk of sounding like a motivational speaker, "The World's Leading <insert widget here> Company" is how you present yourself, not necessarily what you are.
I definitely agree with you that they'd be disappointed in the ACG issues. More so than any fan, I'd bet.
I think I just misunderstood what you wrote initially - I read it more as "paizo should try and outsell other publishers" rather than "paizo should strive to make their books better". Best to ignore me, I suspect. :p
I get passionate when I write about this stuff. It makes it easy to see what I post as very preachy, so it's definitely not your fault.
Outselling WotC would certainly have its merits. But I think going at it by just trying to beat their sales volume would would the wrong approach. If, on the other hand, Paizo had been able to keep the focus of the gaming public squarely on how awesome their company and products are, fewer people would be willing to test the grass on the WotC side of the fence. Right now people are flocking over there who I think wouldn't have, had they been given a compelling reason to stay. Had they stayed, 5E wouldn't be doing as well as it is.
Perhaps that's a less preachy way for me to state my criticism (which hopefully is being seen as constructive - I am in no way a Paizo detractor; I hope that's clear).
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Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.
Edit: I'm not seeing you pounce on anyone, Steve. You're being completely reasonable. Others, however, have an overwhelming need to be the cool kid in class. It gets old.
I don't think he is saying Paizo should not strive for financial success. I think he is saying the number 1 spot is not needed to be successful, and making more money does not always mean you are the better company.
What is rules bloat is subject, and rules can be sold to GM's and players. Don't make the mistake thinking "what you like" is "best for business". That is a mistake I see far too often here. "Well in my games" does not equate to "ok for the general public or good for Paizo".That is why I try to debate from a neutral stance. Someone like myself would have more powerful options based on how I like to play, but I know that is not everyone so I don't try to push Paizo to make more powerful options. I like to play/GM to level 17, but many prefer to stop before that. I can list a number of reason of why it works for me, but that does not mean it is good for Paizo to push it.
Basically you are advocating what suits your games, but since Paizo is growing quickly under their current model that may not be best for them or us as a whole.
I honestly believe that the way Paizo determines what's best for it as a company is to listen to many, many different people tell them what suits their games and what's best for them personally, and then making decisions based on that aggregated data. Knowing that my voice is but one and is representative of some portion less than the whole doesn't make me want to keep from speaking. I'm not trying to represent everyone in as neutral a way as possible - that, in theory, is Paizo's job. I'm telling them the only thing I can know for a certainty, the only thing I know for a fact I'm better educated on than they... which is what I and those at my table want, what we like and displace, what appeals to us and what does not. Its a service I would expect every loyal patron should offer.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I don't think he is saying Paizo should not strive for financial success. I think he is saying the number 1 spot is not needed to be successful, and making more money does not always mean you are the better company.Why do you think it's important for paizo to be the worlds leading game company?
I wish them all the success they want, but its irrelevant to me whether they sell more or less books than WotC. I consider them great because of who they are and how they do things, not because ICv2 declared them the winner for a few quarters in a row.
I have no idea how to reply to this, beyond saying that I can't imagine not trying to be the best at what I do. No way did Paizo set out wanting to be "okay" at making their game. If they had, it would have been exactly that.
Edit: I'm not seeing you pounce on anyone, Steve. You're being completely reasonable. Others, however, have an overwhelming need to be the cool kid in class. It gets old.
I actually agree. See the above posts.
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For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
Disclaimer: I don't think these problems extend to the Campaign Setting line, modules, or Adventure Paths. At this point those products are the only ones I purchase and use the PRD for anything else. I think James Jacobs does a really good job over there and I rarely have quality control issues with those products.
Before anyone pounces on me I would like to say that I support said publishers with my dollar because of their product and customer relations, not because of any oddball agenda against Paizo. If Paizo products were as high quality as these 3PP products I'd be willing to spend just as much money.
I honestly believe that the way Paizo determines what's best for it as a company is to listen to many, many different people tell them what suits their games and what's best for them personally, and then making decisions based on that aggregated data. Knowing that my voice is but one and is representative of some portion less than the whole doesn't make me want to keep from speaking. I'm not trying to represent everyone in as neutral a way as possible - that, in theory, is Paizo's job. I'm telling them the only thing I can know for a certainty, the only thing I know for a fact I'm better educated on than they... which is what I and those at my table want, what we like and displace, what appeals to us and what does not. Its a service I would expect every loyal patron should offer.
What is rules bloat is subject, and rules can be sold to GM's and players. Don't make the mistake thinking "what you like" is "best for business". That is a mistake I see far too often here. "Well in my games" does not equate to "ok for the general public or good for Paizo".That is why I try to debate from a neutral stance. Someone like myself would have more powerful options based on how I like to play, but I know that is not everyone so I don't try to push Paizo to make more powerful options. I like to play/GM to level 17, but many prefer to stop before that. I can list a number of reason of why it works for me, but that does not mean it is good for Paizo to push it.
Basically you are advocating what suits your games, but since Paizo is growing quickly under their current model that may not be best for them or us as a whole.
I am not saying don't tell them what you want, but you presented what you want as if "it is the best way", or at least that is how I read it.
As an example I wanted Paizo to have psionics based on power points as an official thing. I campaigned for it to an extent. I would still embrace it now, but I won't go so far as to say it is a good thing for them to do because I know the "psionics" has a certain stigma attached to the name.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
I'd be very interested to see your list, particularly with regard to the adventures. I am always hunting for different things, and this statement has piqued my curiosity.
Personally I haven't noticed any decline in Paizo's quality. I don't have the ACG yet so can't comment on that specifically, but I think one book with some editing problems isn't necessarily a symptom of a wider problem. I think the AP's are as great as ever, along with the world building in the campaign setting, which are the things that drew me to Pathfinder in the first place. And personally I like the other irons they have in the fire. The Adventure Card Game is great fun, and I'm really looking forward to whatever Pathfinder game Obsidian comes out with.
I'd also suggest that a complex rule system means that there will inevitably be more errors as that rule system expands. The more moving parts a system has, the greater the chance that a new rule is going to interact badly with an existing portion of it. That doesn't mean that errors aren't annoying, but increasing errors doesn't have to mean that the books are getting sloppy. It may simply be reflective of an increasing potential for errors.
Someone else brought up problems with book bindings, which I had not considered. Most of my books are pdf, and my hardbacks hardly ever see use. The AP's I have in physical form are holding up, but I hardly ever use them either. So of course I can't comment on whether it is use or quality of the binding that is the issue. I also don't know if people are taking use/handling into account, but if the binding is an issue then it should be fixed.
PS: When people say "quality" while complaining they should be more specific. What exactly is dropping is a question that should be answered. Every book has had errors, and I think the last two major releases coming back to back may have created a "sky is falling" syndrome. I could be wrong however. This is an interesting topic, so I will watch to see how the next book turns out. Other than the equipment guide, I had not really seen this much complaining about 1 product.
I'd be very interested to see your list, particularly with regard to the adventures. I am always hunting for different things, and this statement has piqued my curiosity.For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
I would also. Other than Genius(rogue or whatever the current name is)* Games, and one pdf with 8 classes that I paid about 1 dollar for I have not been repeat purchaser of any 3rd party items.
*If you are reading this I do like your products, but my brain is failing me. :)
Did they? We'll see.Lesson learned.
-Skeld
Iron Gods's new rules were written by the same guy who's developing Iron Gods.
Hell's Rebels and Giantslayer aren't linked to ANY new rules in any significant way.
Make of that what you will.
Well, I've started up my suscription again with Iron Gods, so I'll know soon enough. Although I kinda get the feeling that the Technology Guide is absolutely needed to run that AP, which I kind of disapprove about.
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I love Paizo, but have to admit I am frustrated with spending $150+ on MA and WotR and then hearing about all of the problems and issues on the forums here. I am a somewhat new PF DM and the thought of trying to "fix" things on my own is daunting. Most companies that put out a "flawed" (I know some would argue this is an overstatement) product usually try to "make things right." It sounds like Paizo does have enough "irons in the fire" to prevent that from happening in this particular case...which is too bad.
Yeah, that persistent lack of accountability is troubling me, too. It would be unacceptable in most other industries, but something about the roleplaying market seems to want make many fans apply a lower standard than they would anywhere else. It really baffles me.
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I'd be very interested to see your list, particularly with regard to the adventures. I am always hunting for different things, and this statement has piqued my curiosity.For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
As these are adventures opinions will always vary, but I would suggest
Adventures+Campaign settings
-Anything from Frog God Games. In Particular Slumbering Tsar, Razor Coast, and Rappan Athuk.
-From LPJ the Obsidian Apocalypse campaign setting (A kickstarter for an AP in the setting is on its way and will likely be worth looking into)
-Way of the Wicked
Splat books
-Ultimate Psionics and anything else DSP touches. When I think "Best Publisher" I think Dreamscarred Press. They have only one downside, the playtest process they use takes a very long time. The upside? All products get a lot of heavy playtesting and feedback. I don't think I've ever gotten as amazing a release as Ultimate Psionics. They just released a reinvention of the classic "Book of Nine Swords" and it's an absolutely amazing treasure trove.
-Rogue Genius Games and the "Genius Guide" series
-Kobold Press, in particular the New Paths Compendium
-Rite Publishing
If I missed any really cool people and 3PP I apologize, I am only one man and one wallet. I also heavily suggest checking out this guy, he is a very trusted reviewer of 3PP though I do find his perspective on the power level available in Pathfinder to be skewed downward.
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Well, I've started up my suscription again with Iron Gods, so I'll know soon enough. Although I kinda get the feeling that the Technology Guide is absolutely needed to run that AP, which I kind of disapprove about.Did they? We'll see.Lesson learned.
-Skeld
Iron Gods's new rules were written by the same guy who's developing Iron Gods.
Hell's Rebels and Giantslayer aren't linked to ANY new rules in any significant way.
Make of that what you will.
True, but the rules are online which means you don't have to purchase it.
I'd be very interested to see your list, particularly with regard to the adventures. I am always hunting for different things, and this statement has piqued my curiosity.For me and for a lot of people the "Number One Publisher for Pathfinder" isn't necessarily Paizo. There are several 3PP that I believe publish more unique and balanced classes, more amazing adventures, and have more open dev-player relations.
As these are adventures opinions will always vary, but I would suggest
Adventures+Campaign settings
-Anything from Frog God Games. In Particular Slumbering Tsar, Razor Coast, and Rappan Athuk.
-From LPJ the Obsidian Apocalypse campaign setting (A kickstarter for an AP in the setting is on its way and will likely be worth looking into)
-Way of the WickedSplat books
-Ultimate Psionics and anything else DSP touches. When I think "Best Publisher" I think Dreamscarred Press. They have only one downside, the playtest process they use takes a very long time. The upside? All products get a lot of heavy playtesting and feedback. I don't think I've ever gotten as amazing a release as Ultimate Psionics. They just released a reinvention of the classic "Book of Nine Swords" and it's an absolutely amazing treasure trove.
-Rogue Genius Games and the "Genius Guide" series
-Kobold Press, in particular the New Paths Compendium
-Rite PublishingIf I missed any really cool people and 3PP I apologize, I am only one man and one wallet. I also heavily suggest checking out this guy, he is a very trusted reviewer of 3PP though I do find his perspective on the power level available in Pathfinder to be skewed downward.
I do like DSP, and I will be in on the Obsidian Apocalypse kickstarter. It will be my first item from them ever. :)
Ha ha ha Nutella is for the soft Vegemite is for the hardcore... It puts hair on your chest and it's made from beer.
That and I can get peanut butter Tim Tams now.
The problem with Vegemite is that those who don't understand it slather it on like peanut butter. Vegemite should be used sparingly on toast with melted butter.
Sorry, but peanut butter is bleugh. 8P It's only useful for making satay sauce.
Heresy... Peanut & chocolate is a Mythically Epic combination.... It is the killer move, maybe only topped by prawns, cold beer and Hendrix blaring on the stereo on a hot summer afternoon while sitting in the shade at the beach.
Top keep it relevant - In our home games ambiguous rules are settled on by player GM consensus and change only if they change in the FAQ. I can see how it may cause frustration with PFS games.
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Wiggz, the elixir of sex change is clearly the magic item used by
which inspired a great deal of discussion on the message boards, among which were people asking for it to be given form as an actual magical item. People were INTERESTED in it, and so one of the developers decided to spend some time putting this magical item, which had been hinted at in an AP, and which people were interested in finding out more about, into a rulebook. If this were a magical sword or a helm or an elixir of hair-color-change instead, you wouldn't have cared.
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I just love good adventures and splat material y'know? I don't think that's too uncommon. My personal favorite Paizo materials are as follows
-THE CAMPAIGN SETTING LINE, especially the ones typing to APs
-The Adventure Path Line (for the most part)
-The Paladin, Magus, Inquisitor, Bard, Skald, Sorcerer, Bloodrager, Hunter, Shaman, Alchemist, and Oracle classes.
-The Inner Sea Gods book is my personal favorite Paizo book and the only Paizo Hardcover I own. Under most circumstances I only buy PDFs and Softcovers, so owning a hardback means I really love something. The only other hardback I own is Ultimate Psionics.
I am not some impossible to please guy who complains about everything I see as some people say I am. In fact I very often praise the materials I pointed out above. I thought the Hunter was going to be USELESS when the ACG play test ended and was happy to say I was wrong when the book came out. I just want fun splat material that fills a niche without being overshadowed at conception (Warpriest, lookin at you).
To bring this all back in and on topic. I don't know if Paizo has too many Irons in the Fire, but the ACG was such a huge blunder than it actually tarnished my trust in Paizo. What did I find wrong with it? Editing, lack of communication between teams, lack of unified language, sloppiness in the archetype section in particular lots of references to non-existent terms, poorly designed feats, poorly designed archetypes, and more.
You know what? I can forgive Paizo for all that. I would have forgiven Paizo for all that too if we even saw a single blog post saying that they admit they could have done a better job, that errata was forthcoming, and that their next main line release would not have the same problems. The problem is that Paizo has been almost radio silent on this whole issue.
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It takes zero additional "manhours" () to make a world that is open and inclusive.You're right: it won't be popular at all. In fact, it's a pretty sure bet you'll completely derail this topic with that kind of post. Do yourself a favor and delete it.I'm not trying to derail anything - that seems to me to very clearly be one of the 'irons' Paizo has in the fire... its not occurring by happenstance, its occurring as a result of very conscientious and deliberate planning, something which I'm certain involves much discussion and deliberation... i.e. time. Manhours. In the interest of being inclusive and accepting of all sincerely offered viewpoints, even unpopular ones, why would I feel the need to censor my own?The Elixir of Sex Change is a very tiny example of what I'm referencing. I'm assuming ti was written up, possibly a handful of drafts as I imagine most written work receives, reviewed by someone, possibly several someones as most written work is, some effort put into determining a proper gp cost for it and so on... and I imagine every step of the way that took some time. Not exhaustive amounts to be sure, but it adds up, especially when spread across numerous characters - NPC's and Iconics, items, story lines, etc.
Now, I'm assuming that the Elixir of Sex Change didn't magically appear on the printed page and I'm assuming its sole purpose was to make the world more open and inclusive, no? That suggests your statement isn't entirely true.
Yes, it would have taken some time to get in the book. Slightly more than the Elixr of the thundering voice below it, about the same time as the Drinking horn of the Pancea above it, and most importantly, exactly the same amount of time as the alternate item that would be needed to fill that 3.5 column inches in the ACG.
It's not that if Paizo stopped including LGBT friendly elements in their books it would free up time to deal with editing passes or any of the other issues, as they would still need to fill the book space used to describe those characters
If, on the other hand, Paizo had been able to keep the focus of the gaming public squarely on how awesome their company and products are, fewer people would be willing to test the grass on the WotC side of the fence. Right now people are flocking over there who I think wouldn't have, had they been given a compelling reason to stay. Had they stayed, 5E wouldn't be doing as well as it is.In what way do you think they've lost their focus to encouraging some customers to wander to other games?
Do you think the products Paizo has released this year were the best choices to coincide with the release of 5e? - as in attracting enough interest sharing shelf space together.
I can only speak for my experiences, but after reading the ACG I was so dissapointed I looked into more 3PP that could act as a new source of content for myself and my group and alternate systems such as DnD 5E, Rogue Trader, Numenera, Monster Hunter International, and Dark Heresy 2E
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As for the LGBT:
The only think I noticed recently was a transgender character and it was only one. As for homosexuals, rise of the runelords(the very first AP) had one. Another AP had one in a prominent role instead of as something players may never notice. It is not like this started yesterday or as if there has been a sudden increase. I clearly doubt it takes up enough time to detract from production.
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As for Drogon I am wondering what he is talking about. I don't think Mythic would have been much better, nor would the ACG without more playtesting and editing time. Since products have their own teams I don't think more products is an impact until people have to cover several product lines.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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I can only speak for my experiences, but after reading the ACG I was so dissapointed I looked into more 3PP that could act as a new source of content for myself and my group and alternate systems such as DnD 5E, Rogue Trader, Numenera, Monster Hunter International, and Dark Heresy 2E
I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the book, Dragon. While I don't agree with the premise of this thread in general, it is true that last year had a couple of significant challenges that may have contributed to some of the problems you cite.
Many of those factors (losing a core member of the design team, developing a bonus hardcover superadventure to support a huge Kickstarter campaign, and developing a book as visually complex and ambitious as the Strategy Guide) are not likely to occur in 2015, so I am personally optimistic about the future.
I am working on Occult Adventures (next year's Gen Con release) as a freelancer, and have had lots of opportunity to participate in the overall conception of the book. I've also worked closely with each member of the design team, all of whom have been uniformly terrific and on-point in every discussion I've had with them.
That book is going to be fantastic.
If we fell short of your expectations with the Advanced Class Guide, I'm confident that the books coming up will regain some of that faith you have lost. I have a lot of faith in them, and in those yet to come.
What, more controversy? How is that making things better?
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Well, considering they created a plane of nothing but irons in a fire...
I can only speak for my experiences, but after reading the ACG I was so dissapointed I looked into more 3PP that could act as a new source of content for myself and my group and alternate systems such as DnD 5E, Rogue Trader, Numenera, Monster Hunter International, and Dark Heresy 2EI'm sorry you had such a negative experience with the book, Dragon. While I don't agree with the premise of this thread in general, it is true that last year had a couple of significant challenges that may have contributed to some of the problems you cite.
Many of those factors (losing a core member of the design team, developing a bonus hardcover superadventure to support a huge Kickstarter campaign, and developing a book as visually complex and ambitious as the Strategy Guide) are not likely to occur in 2015, so I am personally optimistic about the future.
I am working on Occult Adventures (next year's Gen Con release) as a freelancer, and have had lots of opportunity to participate in the overall conception of the book. I've also worked closely with each member of the design team, all of whom have been uniformly terrific and on-point in every discussion I've had with them.
That book is going to be fantastic.
If we fell short of your expectations with the Advanced Class Guide, I'm confident that the books coming up will regain some of that faith you have lost. I have a lot of faith in them, and in those yet to come.
That is the closest thing to public statement I've seen on the ACG and for now it's good enough. I still feel that the ACG has been sort of swept under the rug and would be much more comfortable with Paizo as a whole if they could offer a real apology for a book that is below the standards Paizo sets for themselves.
For you though I would like to make a small wager
If you guys can deliver Pathfinder Unleashed and Occult Adventures as a much improved product I will buy both of them, screenshot the order, screenshot this post, and formally thank and apologize to Paizo in a forum post for releasing well written products with no snark because as a gamer all I want are products worth the money I paid for. My primary areas of concern are the editing, the balance of the feats, the quality of the archetype section, and whether or not the book feels unified. I say this because these sections of the ACG read like they were written by completely separate people with not interaction made with the devs of created the classes. The "Possible Errors" thread is a real goldmine of what sort of stuff we shouldn't see.
If the books are on the same level as the ACG I will rate them 1/5 stars and include a link to your above statement in my reviews.
I think that sounds fair?
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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You don't ever need to apologize for posting critical comments about our books, especially if they are constructive. I don't require your contrition, and neither does anyone else. If we fell short of your expectations, we fell short of your expectations.
We shall endeavor to exceed them in the future.
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I have a question. Do you believe that the ACG that was released fell short, exceeded, or met your expectations?
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I have a question. Do you believe that the ACG that was released fell short, exceeded, or met your expectations?
I'm not sure that's a fair question to ask them. It's really about whether they are meeting our expectations. The fact that they are responding on the forums to our opinions around this shows that they care about our expectations which is in part what really matters.
I live for the day when walking into a room and announcing 'I'm gay' or 'I'm black' or whatever generates the same shrug of indifference as announcing 'I'm straight' or 'I'm white' does.
So how do you achieve that?
A good starting point is, for example, if someone is casting a few hundred extras for TV or film in London (very multicultural) they cover the whole demographic as far as possible - i.e lots of non-white extras, the whole age demographic, a lot of people grouped into families or couples, some of which are same sex.
Because acceptance only really seems to happen when most people can say "Like (my mate/guy on TV) X, then"
What madness is this!? Are you telling me I can't have my weekly Nutella bath!? LIVE IS NO LONGER WORTH LIVING!!!Might I suggest rolled up Pfannkuchen filled with jam or Nutela?Just give me a spoon. That Nutella will get taken care of.Can't we have to conserve resources this years nut harvest might be pretty bad (about 70% of the nuts in Nutella come from Turkey and their harvest is projected to be terrible this year.
He have to make it last.... also you can put Nutella and Bananas on top ^^ Maybe even some (white) chocolate shavings^^
Ha ha ha Nutella is for the soft Vegemite is for the hardcore... It puts hair on your chest and it's made from beer.
That and I can get peanut butter Tim Tams now.
I will see your Vegemite and raise you one Marmite. Generally known to many who taste it as "Good God, HOW CAN YOU EAT THIS STUFF?!" and known to the rest of us as Ambrosia.
I will see your Vegemite and raise you one Marmite. Generally known to many who taste it as "Good God, HOW CAN YOU EAT THIS STUFF?!" and known to the rest of us as Ambrosia.
OMG Marmite!! You've come out on the forums to admit this? Have you told your parents yet?
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The problem with Vegemite is that those who don't understand it slather it on like peanut butter. Vegemite should be used sparingly on toast with melted butter.Ha ha ha Nutella is for the soft Vegemite is for the hardcore... It puts hair on your chest and it's made from beer.
That and I can get peanut butter Tim Tams now.
I made that mistake with Branston Pickle. Put a big scoop on some toast, and was overwhelmed.
On topic: Yes, the ACG has typos. Yes, some of the archetypes don't feel finished. Yes, I would have liked to see more archetype support for some classes (imagine an exploiter cleric, or a spirit bound cleric). Am I glad I bought it? Yes, I am. I find most of the new classes quite interesting, and am actually considering running an ACG only game. It's got alot of good stuff, far more than any bad.