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At low levels that monster could easily be killed by a couple of AoOs, so it'd be dumb to rush past the martials to get at the wizard.
At high levels (admittedly - I think the game starts to break down past level 10 or 12 so I haven't played much higher than that) if the caster is smart, he doesn't look like a caster at all. A hat of disguise or a level 1 spell and suddenly the arcane caster looks to be the biggest, baddest, and most heavily armored one in the group.
Not to mention - a monster just going after someone without armor might end up swinging at the highest AC in the group. (well built monk)
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...I'm not sure what are you talking about. If your party is facing a group of enemies that have a big dangerous squishy caster-like enmy protected by several not so strong martial-like bodyguards that can not hurt you much, then ignoring the bodyguard is the natural good idea. It have been stated several times by me and others in this thread that if you can go (with resonably impunity) for the caster-like enemy then go for it.
But this thread is not about that. Is about mosnter attacking the party. A party build with more or less the same system mastery for every member. You can not compare a martial-like monster that can not do much against a PC vs a Pc that can reasonably kill CR equivalent opponents in one full attack (specially if those enemies are already wounded by on or several AoOs).
If in your example going for the enemy caster-like monster woudl mean you will full attacked to death nex round the things would be diferent.
Yes. Well, you see, Nicos, I think everyone is assuming that the caster is more dangerous than the martial. This often isnt true at all.
For example, in our highest level PF party,our Fighter is far and away the deadliest member of the party. Next comes the melee/tank cleric. I play a Sorc, who indeed is HUGELY useful what with T-port, GWM, Haste and other battlefield control spells. I am certainly more useful and more flexible that the tanks. But when you're up to your rear in alligators, it's hard to remember your original plan was to drain the swamp.
True, in the long run, the best way to cripple our party would be get rid of either my support/ battlefield control/utility caster Sorc or the Buffer/healer Life Oracle.
But during combat, if you wanna live, you have to be first concerned with that melee monster of a buffed Fighter who is taking you down with a single Full attack. Or- with a decent crit (and a high crit range) even a single attack.
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I'm not sure who enemies should target in our party of 6 PCs. Frankly, unless they can take us all out in 1 round they are in for a whooping.
Life oracle keeps us up despite taking a beating. If you don't take her out you aren't going to win.
Barbarian has strong melee attacks and is usually in your face making you eat a dangerous AOO or just full attacking you to death.
Bard archer gives all of the group massive attack and damage buffs and on subsequent rounds will fill you full of arrows from a safe distance.
Scout rogue is hard to pin down but often has the hardest hits due to spring attacking sneak attacks.
Wizard can either blast or offer buffs or debuffs depending on our needs at the time.
Cleric Holy Vindicator can lay down some serious smack with his mace if he novas but mostly offers interference with his high AC or provides buffs and some melee damage.
So, yeah, have fun enemies. Realistically they should be targeting our life oracle, because as long as she is up they won't win. But we have a very strong backup healer in the cleric/hv who fills in a pinch. If they ignore the barbarian or the scout rogue or the archer bard they will be dead very quickly. The wizard isn't often their first target, and rightfully so in our case. YMMV.
I'm not sure who enemies should target in our party of 6 PCs. Frankly, unless they can take us all out in 1 round they are in for a whooping.
Life oracle keeps us up despite taking a beating. If you don't take her out you aren't going to win.
Barbarian has strong melee attacks and is usually in your face making you eat a dangerous AOO or just full attacking you to death.
Bard archer gives all of the group massive attack and damage buffs and on subsequent rounds will fill you full of arrows from a safe distance.
Scout rogue is hard to pin down but often has the hardest hits due to spring attacking sneak attacks.
Wizard can either blast or offer buffs or debuffs depending on our needs at the time.
Cleric Holy Vindicator can lay down some serious smack with his mace if he novas but mostly offers interference with his high AC or provides buffs and some melee damage.
So, yeah, have fun enemies. Realistically they should be targeting our life oracle, because as long as she is up they won't win. But we have a very strong backup healer in the cleric/hv who fills in a pinch. If they ignore the barbarian or the scout rogue or the archer bard they will be dead very quickly. The wizard isn't often their first target, and rightfully so in our case. YMMV.
Sounds a lot like our group! ;-)
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In a life or death situation where you can't assume what spells the guy has memorized and no spellcraft ranks to even begin to find out you have to assume the worse.IN a life or death situation I do not see how ignoring the guys who are stabbing you is an inteligent movement.
I have to try to bypass the two guys with knives because the guy behind them is about to call in an orbital bombardment on me and all my friends. That's what it's like.
My thoughts are simply this. If the intelligent enemy wants to run past my ranger and her hipogriff to try and attack me with his sword / hammer... well, the enemies welcome to try. If a caster is smart or at least wants to minimize damage he's not just going to lhave the enemy go through an AOO or two, he'll either have to also get through (web, pit, or grease, etc) or pull out a javeli cause I'm flying as well. Smart enemies are fine, I'm just as smart and I won't make getting to me a walk in the park of AOOs. Neither will my caster buddies, archer and ranger.
I've faced a troll 1 on 1 before and it was fairly easy to play keep away with my flesh until I killed him. I wasn't even prepped to fight a troll either.
But, they could still get to me, so, by all means. Do what they feel makes sense.
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It makes little sense that anything smart enough to cause attacks of opportunity to go after an enemy in a dress instead of the big ugly armor-clad big guy in front of them. Unless he has a backup team, a backup plan, or some sort of contingency plan.
The guy in a dress could be a noble, a farmer, could be a woman.
You will expose yourself to danger (big melee guy) simply to get the chance of wounding the guy a in a dress. Congratulations, you are sentient.
You will accomplish nothing other than force the group to spend a few of their resources (healing potions or spells), which is a metagaming knowledge.Most "creatures" arent simply stat blocks or miniatures in the hands of a hateful god (the gm), but actual living beings, that have desires, fears and things they hate. And unless they have some trauma against women, they shouldnt rush head in against mages or wizards.
If said creature has ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana or even knowledge religion, i would allow him to identify a "caster" instead of just "someone on a dress".
If you start metagaming like that against your players, you will see everybody on your group wearing robes in no time.
Well let me say this. This evening I have 4 tieflings I plan as the main event tonight.2 of the figures are in heavy armor, a third is wielding duel weapons and is In leather and the last is a scantily clad female with a bone staff. Now since the female tiefling could just be a bargirl along for the ride should I accuse my players of metagaming if they attack her first?
...I'm not sure what are you talking about. If your party is facing a group of enemies that have a big dangerous squishy caster-like enmy protected by several not so strong martial-like bodyguards that can not hurt you much, then ignoring the bodyguard is the natural good idea. It have been stated several times by me and others in this thread that if you can go (with resonably impunity) for the caster-like enemy then go for it.
But this thread is not about that. Is about mosnter attacking the party. A party build with more or less the same system mastery for every member. You can not compare a martial-like monster that can not do much against a PC vs a Pc that can reasonably kill CR equivalent opponents in one full attack (specially if those enemies are already wounded by on or several AoOs).
If in your example going for the enemy caster-like monster woudl mean you will full attacked to death nex round the things would be diferent.
Is it really? I was pretty sure that the OP was:
The standard fantasy trope of "Big guy with sword and shield fights the enemy blade-to-blade, while the dude dressed in robes stands way the hell back and casts magic spells at it" doesn't really make much sense.
Anybody with any degree of intelligence should default to "kill the most dangerous enemy first," which would be the caster. Also, many creatures would default to "kill the most fragile enemy first," which would be the guy without any armor.
So, with the exception of Int 1-2 creatures that don't know any better, why aren't the casters (especially arcane casters) the very first target? (Note that this doesn't apply when obvious strategic concerns and/or an irrational hatred of some other character or type of hero make them a lower priority).
Why don't enemies just eat the attack of opportunity for passing the fighter in order to get a pounce+rake combo or full two-handed Power Attack on the guy who will wreck them utterly (reverse gravity, flesh to stone, sleep, color spray, create pit, suggestion, dominate person, stinking cloud, ray of exhaustion, slow) with a single standard action?
This seems pretty "screen neutral".
If we're talking about NPCs who are grossly outclassed by the PCs, then the NPCs should probably still attack the caster whenever possible but do so while avoiding the martials. This is a more passive-aggressive style of combat but one that serves groups of NPCs well, and usually involves things like ranged attacks, superior movement, traps (both real and figurative), and misdirection.
At the end of the day it comes down to this.
1. The meat-tank is going to come to you and kill you while his VIP helps.
2. You are going to try to kill his VIP and the meat-tank is going to come to you and kill you.
The smartest option is to not fight the PCs at all, unless you have a really solid set of group-tactics that are more complex than simply being able to out-maneuver someone on the battlefield.
Well, if the caster will be using the strongests tactics avaliable (like the broken dazing spells) then the martial have to be asumed to with the same system mastery. And in a full attack + AoO an optimized martials can have very reasonably chances of killing equal CR monster.
1. Dazing spells are good, but they are most definitely not the strongest tactics available (barring a few oddities like druids).
2. A single feat does not make system mastery. Suggesting that because a caster picks up a single metamagic feat and uses it means that everyone and everything is going to be dialed to the hilt is ludicrous.
3. I used dazing fireball as an example, but I could have just as easily said cloudkill, black tentacles, summon monster V, enervation, wall of fire, empowered fireball (most NPCs don't need to conserve resources, so getting nova'd down by repeated castings if blasting spells is a real possibility, which is painful if nobody has energy resistances up).
4. Depends on your view of optimized. Are you talking about a glass-cannon build? Because if that's the case, then we'll just kill the martial first. Survival is efficiency. The AoO + full attack argument only applies if...
A) the meat-tank is adjacent/within 10 ft. of the VIP, which makes provoking questionable unless you're running in from a very specific angle.
B) The meat-tank has pounce or something similar, so that after you move past him and he's taken his AoO, he can then move up to go get you and still full-attack.
Any other situation and there is no full-attack, because it goes like this. Aggressor runs past meat-tank. Meat-tank takes an AoO (hit/miss). Aggressor continues movement to close with VIP. If aggressor moved more than 5 ft., meat-tank must pursue and cannot full-attack.
And yes, there are sitautiosn where running and eating an AoO will be a good idea but, generally speaking, the enemy group will need more complex tactics, and if you are facing a sitaution like that your group will need more complex tactics. That is the point.
I think you're over dramatizing it. This is just tactics 101. This isn't getting into really detailed stuff, this is tactics kindergarden.
I've seen very few martials who can kill another martial with a single AoO and then a single standard-action attack. Especially since AC is a thing. Hell, front-line martials are actually really resilient to full-attacks themselves because of AC. When you're only hit with someone's main attack on a 16+, you're not particularly fearful of that 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th attack...or even the extra 3 attacks from TWF.
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Well let me say this. This evening I have 4 tieflings I plan as the main event tonight.2 of the figures are in heavy armor, a third is wielding duel weapons and is In leather and the last is a scantily clad female with a bone staff. Now since the female tiefling could just be a bargirl along for the ride should I accuse my players of metagaming if they attack her first?
You could change things up: Monks can use staves and the wizard could have levels as a hellknight signifier.
If you choose to play everything as a stereotype, It does make enemies predictable.
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I just witnessed this action in 10th level play:
Optimized 10th level party travelling underground through thick magical fog is ambushed by a large nasty fug-ugly monster. Monster clearly has a fearsome full attack sequence. Two party martials are near the creature. One of them takes considerable damage and yells warning.
The party Wizard, who has all his defensive buffs up, moves adjacent to the horrendous fearsome monster(trying to draw an AoO), then casts a spell defensively. He's basically daring this powerful, but non-magical, monster to attack him. The monster initially takes the Wizard up on the offer but is stopped cold for several attacks. It gives up in frustration and finishes the rest of its iterative attacks against the synthesist summoner tank, who is easier to hit.
The wizard was buffed with Blur (20% miss chance), Mirror Image (6 images at start), Displacement, and a variety of other defensive buffs. His AC was even pretty good, not that it mattered.
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** spoiler omitted **
Shut eyes and blind fight ignores all those buffs. Drops each miss chance to 25%. It doesn't take too many hits to kill mr wizard.
In the situation you outlined, it certainly worked.
Using those as the be all to end all for reasons why casters don't care about getting hit shows a clear lack of experiencing in running into well built Martials.
Attacking casters isn't something everything does. But when the enemy is capable of having the tactics to do so, you can be damn sure they'll likely have the skill to do so as well.
As a DM, this is something I'd pull on my party only very occasionally though. It helps to remind them they're not über gods, and it makes them mix up their tactics. Too much use is just destroying fun though.
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Well let me say this. This evening I have 4 tieflings I plan as the main event tonight.2 of the figures are in heavy armor, a third is wielding duel weapons and is In leather and the last is a scantily clad female with a bone staff. Now since the female tiefling could just be a bargirl along for the ride should I accuse my players of metagaming if they attack her first?
Rakshasa-spawn tiefling magus (staff magus, eldritch scion) 7 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 104; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 168; Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9, 49)
NE Medium outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +1 shield, +2 natural)
hp 59 (7d8+21)
Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +5
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 quarterstaff +10 (1d6+7)
Special Attacks deed: opportune parry and riposte, spellstrike
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +9)
. . 1/day—detect thoughts (DC 14)
Magus (Staff Magus, Eldritch Scion) Spells Known (CL 7th; concentration +9):
. . 3rd (1/day)—haste, vampiric touch
. . 2nd (4/day)—bladed dash, blur, glitterdust (DC 14), invisibility, mirror image
. . 1st (5/day)—long arm{super}ACG{/super}, obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement (DC 13), shield, shocking grasp
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, disrupt undead, mage hand, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 18
Feats Arcane Strike, Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Quarterstaff Master[UM], Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +6, Disguise +4, Intimidate +8, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +10; Racial Modifiers deed: derring-do
Languages Common, Infernal
SQ bloodrager bloodline (arcane), eldritch pool, magus arcana (close range, flamboyant arcana), quarterstaff defense, spell combat
Other Gear +1 lamellar (leather) armor, +1 quarterstaff, 1,390 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Close Range (Ex) Using spellstrike, deliver ranged touch spells as melee touch spells.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deed: Derring-Do (+1 extra dice) (Ex) Use 1 panache, +1d6 to Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check. On a 6, roll another die.
Deed: Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack, then counterattack.
Eldritch Pool +2 (5/day) (Su) As a swift action, gain access to bloodline powers for 2 rds.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Flamboyant Arcana (Ex) Gain a selection of deeds, and can use arcane pool in place of panache for them.
Quarterstaff Defense +1 (Ex) At 7th level, while wielding a quarterstaff, the staff magus gains a shield bonus to his Armor Class equal to the enhancement bonus of the quarterstaff, including any enhancement bonus on that staff from his arcane pool class feature. At 13th level,
Quarterstaff Master Use a quarterstaff one-handed
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spellstrike (only in mystic focus) (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Unnamed Hero
Tiefling fighter (lore warden) 6/swashbuckler 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 168)
CE Medium outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 66 (7d10+20)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +2 (+1 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +1; Resist cold 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 sawtooth sabre +12/+7 (1d8+8/19-20) and
. . +1 sawtooth sabre +12 (1d8+8/19-20)
Special Attacks deed: opportune parry and riposte, panache, weapon training (heavy blades +1)
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +6)
. . 1/day—darkness
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 24
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), Slashing Grace[ACG], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Weapon Specialization (sawtooth sabre)
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (local) +12, Perception +10, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth, deed: derring-do
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
SQ deed: dodging panache, prehensile tail, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear +2 lamellar (leather) armor, +1 sawtooth sabre, +1 sawtooth sabre, 7,600 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deed: Derring-Do (+4 extra dice) (Ex) Use 1 panache, +1d6 to Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check. On a 6, roll another die.
Deed: Dodging Panache (Ex) As an imm action when attacked, use 1 panache to move 5 ft. and gain +0 to AC vs. attack.
Deed: Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack, then counterattack.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Slashing Grace (Sawtooth sabre) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Unnamed Hero
Kyton-spawn tiefling oracle 7 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 168)
CE Medium outsider (native)
Init -2; Senses oracle's curse (deaf), darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -1
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 10, flat-footed 22 (+10 armor, +2 natural)
hp 66 (7d8+28)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +4
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft., revelation (skill at arms, surprising charge, war sight, weapon mastery)
Melee +1 greataxe +8 (1d12+11/×3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +9)
. . 1/day—web (DC 14)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 7th; concentration +9):
. . 3rd (4/day)—blood rage, cure serious wounds, magic vestment, prayer
. . 2nd (7/day)—bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, effortless armor{super}UC{/super}, fog cloud, silence (DC 14)
. . 1st (7/day)—bless, compel hostility{super}UC{/super}, cure light wounds, divine favor, enlarge person (DC 13), protection from good, shield of faith
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink (DC 12), read magic
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Armor Of The Pit[ARG], Extra Revelation[APG], Furious Focus[APG], Power Attack, Silent Spell, Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Skills Acrobatics +0, Escape Artist -3, Heal +4, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (planes) +6, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception -1 (+2 on checks that do not rely on hearing), Spellcraft +10
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ mystery (mystery [battle])
Other Gear +1 full plate, +1 greataxe, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deaf Fail sound-based Perception, -4 opposed Perception. All spells have Silent Spell for free.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Silent Spell Cast a spell with no verbal components. +1 Level.
Surprising Charge (2/day) (Ex) Move your speed as an immediate action.
War Sight (Su) Take your choice of 2 initiative rolls. Always act in the surprise round.
Unnamed Hero
Male tiefling hellknight signifer 2/wizard 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 168)
LE Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 51 (2d8+5d6+19)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +5
Resist cold 5
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +6)
. . 1/day—darkness
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +11):
. . 4th—crushing despair (DC 19), lesser geas (DC 19), still unadulterated loathing{super}S,UM{/super} (DC 18)
. . 3rd—haste, heroism, still hideous laughter{super}S{/super} (DC 17), unadulterated loathing{super}UM{/super} (DC 18)
. . 2nd—blood armor{super}ACG{/super}, darkness, hideous laughter{super}S{/super} (DC 17), hideous laughter (DC 17), touch of idiocy
. . 1st—charm person{super}S{/super} (DC 16), charm person (DC 16), infernal healing{super}ISWG{/super}, protection from good, shocking grasp
. . 0 (at will)—daze (DC 15), detect magic, ray of frost, read magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Armor Training, Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium), Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (enchantment), Still Spell
Skills Appraise +8, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +12, Fly +5, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (planes) +14, Perception +5, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +12; Racial Modifiers +4 Fly
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elven, Hallit, Infernal
SQ arcane bond (arcane bond [ring of protection +1]), catchesis, dazing touch, opposition school (conjuration, necromancy), order (order of the gate), prehensile tail, specialized school (enchantment)
Other Gear +1 hellknight plate, +1 mithral buckler, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Arcane Armor Mastery Swift action: -20% arcane spell failure due to armor.
Arcane Bond (Ring of protection +1) (1/day) (Sp) Use object to cast any spell in your spellbook. Without it, Concentration required to cast spells (DC20 + spell level).
Catchesis (Ex) Add signifer level to divine spellcaster levels for effects of powers.
Conjuration You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Conjuration school.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dazing Touch (7/day) (Sp) Touch attack dazes foe for 1 rd, if HD <= wizard level.
Enchantment The enchanter uses magic to control and manipulate the minds of his victims.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Necromancy You must spend 2 slots to cast spells from the Necromancy school.
Prehensile Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Spell Focus (Enchantment) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Still Spell You can cast a spell with no somatic components. +1 Level.
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** spoiler omitted **Shut eyes and blind fight ignores all those buffs. Drops each miss chance to 25%. It doesn't take too many hits to kill mr wizard.
Blind Fight still has a 50% miss chance. Same as you would have with your eyes open fighting anyone with Displacement.
To drop your miss change to 20%, you need Greater Blind Fight.
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** spoiler omitted **Shut eyes and blind fight ignores all those buffs. Drops each miss chance to 25%. It doesn't take too many hits to kill mr wizard.
Blind Fight still has a 50% miss chance. Same as you would have with your eyes open fighting anyone with Displacement.
To drop your miss change to 20%, you need Greater Blind Fight.
50% miss for fighting eyes closed. Re roll with 50% miss chance as consequence of blind fight feat. Combined probability law makes that a 25 % miss for each attack you would normally hit with.
In other words, it negates displacement and mirror image completely. So for the buffs outlined in the spoiler that was given, that one feat ruins most of the buffs.
But not something that's going to pop up all that often. Probably about as often as the party should run into a caster rocking mirror image, blur and displacement I would think.
I guess it depends on the reasons you play. Many folks on these boards seem to play competitively. Me and my mates play for co operative play and relaxation.
Cheers
About staff and guys armed with them.
Just as today there are some people who cannot tell one rifle from another and other who can give you the make, model , caliber and magazine of any rifle they see, there are going to be intelligent monsters who are going to know what staff some one is armed with just by looking at it, unless one uses illusion magic or some other disguise. notice all staffs that are magical have a unique description. So why is that monk or merchant wielding a rusty metal staff with a green gem on top? Ditto for robes and other items.
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Surely if your tactic is always disable the caster first, you would stack up on thunderstones, smoke sticks, ect to blind/deafen/ect the caster at a range to then deal with the marshals, especially since getting hit on purpose (with AoOs) is just as dumb
IIRC thunderstone are only a DC 15 fort save. Unless you are a low(1-3) level caster they are not a threat unless you throw a lot of them. Depending on how many minions are around throwing them could be a terrible use of your actions.
If they(PC casters) can't target someone there are always AoO's. In addition many casters cause problems with buffs and summons. Smoke sticks won't normally stop those.
From a PC perspective if the entire party opens up with thunderstones, then it might work, but I think think it is less efficient than trying to use your casters to shut down the other caster if possible, hopefully in conjuction with your meat shield so he takes less damage while getting to the caster.
I think the problem here is that "go after the caster" is being presented as "rush in with no matter what", but I doubt Ashiel or the other posters would do that. More than likely some of the meatbags protecting the NPC caster will be disabled, and the PC meatbag will be buffed, so that his path to the caster is less painful than it would be otherwise.
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** spoiler omitted **Shut eyes and blind fight ignores all those buffs. Drops each miss chance to 25%. It doesn't take too many hits to kill mr wizard.
Blind Fight still has a 50% miss chance. Same as you would have with your eyes open fighting anyone with Displacement.
To drop your miss change to 20%, you need Greater Blind Fight.
50% miss for fighting eyes closed. Re roll with 50% miss chance as consequence of blind fight feat. Combined probability law makes that a 25 % miss for each attack you would normally hit with.
In other words, it negates displacement and mirror image completely. So for the buffs outlined in the spoiler that was given, that one feat ruins most of the buffs.
But not something that's going to pop up all that often. Probably about as often as the party should run into a caster rocking mirror image, blur and displacement I would think.
I guess it depends on the reasons you play. Many folks on these boards seem to play competitively. Me and my mates play for co operative play and relaxation.
Cheers
The reroll is improved blind fight.
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Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.
An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded.
Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...
I mean like... SUPER DUMB....
And to use that is being a sore munchkin like none other...
Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...
I mean like... SUPER DUMB....
And to use that is being a sore munchkin like none other...
I think this is more of an issue with mirror image than blind-fight.
Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...
Dunno, it worked well for Luke Skywalker. And Zatoichi. It's very cinematic to train for the possibility that someone will try to confuse you visually, so you block out the confusion and strike from the heart or some such fortune cookie.
Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...Dunno, it worked well for Luke Skywalker. And Zatoichi. It's very cinematic to train for the possibility that someone will try to confuse you visually, so you block out the confusion and strike from the heart or some such fortune cookie.
But makes a 0 lick of sense... especially in an actual combat situation... I mean, really? you hit BETTER with your eyes closed?
Sure, if you know your opponent is in front of you, but has a ton of duplicates dancing around distracting you? Shut out the distractions and swing.
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When your vision is actually making it harder for you to perceive where your opponent actually is, yes. Yes you do.
Sure, if you know your opponent is in front of you, but has a ton of duplicates dancing around distracting you? Shut out the distractions and swing.
Except remember, that is from a Meta-Game stand point. Remember, you and your opponent can be ANYWHERE in the 5x5 square. That is a lot of space to be moving around in. and it's not all of you in that 5 ft square, its your main body. So your leg could possibly be in the square over so there is a lot of square fo ryou to be standing in. On a board, yes they are in front of you. But in the actual scenerio they can be caddy corner from you, in front of you, or possibly damn near next to you (you are in the upper right cornor and they are in the corner opposide of you). As for the duplicates, you can obviously tell which is the real because there is nothing stoping you from being the same square as one of the copies (if we assume they are all in different squares) or they are so closed together that you can kind of tell where he is, its just kinda distored or hard to tell exactly (if all the copies share teh same square).
Honestly, I just find the whole idea really dumb...
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But makes a 0 lick of sense... especially in an actual combat situation... I mean, really? you hit BETTER with your eyes closed?Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...Dunno, it worked well for Luke Skywalker. And Zatoichi. It's very cinematic to train for the possibility that someone will try to confuse you visually, so you block out the confusion and strike from the heart or some such fortune cookie.
When your eyes are what is making you hit badly, yes.
When your vision is actually making it harder for you to perceive where your opponent actually is, yes. Yes you do.
Except that closing yoru eyes will almost always be harder. No matter what. The reason for that is that your eyes are used for more than just seeing things. For instance, have a person stand still then tell them to stand still with their eyes closed. They will invaribly end up swaying more with their eyes closed. This is because you use your eyes in conjunction with your inner ear to mainain balance and develop a sense of balance AND positioning. Without your vision, many full body tasks become exceptionally difficult.
For instance, it doesn't matter how blurry your vision may be, it is always better to shoot with your eyes and to close your eyes and try to shoot blind (which NEVER works, screw what cinima says).
When your vision is actually making it harder for you to perceive where your opponent actually is, yes. Yes you do.Except that closing yoru eyes will almost always be harder. No matter what. The reason for that is that your eyes are used for more than just seeing things. For instance, have a person stand still then tell them to stand still with their eyes closed. They will invaribly end up swaying more with their eyes closed. This is because you use your eyes in conjunction with your inner ear to mainain balance and develop a sense of balance AND positioning. Without your vision, many full body tasks become exceptionally difficult.
This is not true. I can address that from personal experience. You do not always sway more with your eyes closed.
A local science museum had an exhibit about proprioception and similar senses, and one of the things that they had was a setup, basically a dark tent, and inside the tent was a smaller umbrella-like tent that had brightly illuminated vertical stripes on it. The trick is that the inner tent was rotating. People were asked to stand in the center of the tent. Most people couldn't, because they were doing exactly what you said, relying on their sense of sight to help balance, and they quickly got dizzy and fell over -- their ears were being confused by what their eyes saw. (The setup was rather similar to the one described here, if I understand the article properly.)
Another part of the exhibit had a tunnel with an elevated floor and a rotating pattern on the walls of the tunnel. Again, people found it very difficult (as you can see from the video) even to stand up in the tunnel, let alone walk to the far end. I assure you that the falling-over behavior is not what that person normally does, and if she would just close her eyes, she'd sway much less.
This is more or less the effect the spells are supposed to have on your vision. It's not simply that your vision is blurry, but that your vision is actively misleading and causing you to take the wrong action.
And what most people end up doing to walk through the tunnel is simply to close their eyes, at which point it's no harder than walking blindfold.
I should point out that I, personally, was not as affected by these exhibits as my friends, which I attribute to training in the martial arts, which among other things improves both balance and proprioception. I could walk through the tunnel, for example, but I couldn't have skipped through.
So I find this spell to be quite plausible -- the spell does not simply create mirror images, but it creates them at exactly the spots that make you the most likely to swing at them and miss. If you can't see the decoys, you can't be misled by them. With appropriate training, you can negate some of the penalties.
Remember that you've still got an enhanced miss chance when you blind-fight. Even with all the feats, you're never as good as you would be under optimal conditions. It's not that you fight better with your eyes closed than your eyes open against mooks. It's that you can avoid the worst aspects of a spell that specifically causes you to behave as ineffectively as that girl in the tunnel.
When your vision is actually making it harder for you to perceive where your opponent actually is, yes. Yes you do.Except that closing yoru eyes will almost always be harder. No matter what. The reason for that is that your eyes are used for more than just seeing things. For instance, have a person stand still then tell them to stand still with their eyes closed. They will invaribly end up swaying more with their eyes closed. This is because you use your eyes in conjunction with your inner ear to mainain balance and develop a sense of balance AND positioning. Without your vision, many full body tasks become exceptionally difficult.This is not true. I can address that from personal experience.
A local science museum had an exhibit about proprioception and similar senses, and one of the things that they had was a setup, basically a dark tent, and inside the tent was a smaller umbrella-like tent that had brightly illuminated vertical stripes on it. The trick is that the inner tent was rotating. People were asked to stand in the center of the tent. Most people couldn't, because they were doing exactly what you said, relying on their sense of sight to help balance, and they quickly got dizzy and fell over -- their ears were being confused by what their eyes saw. (The setup was rather similar to the one described here, if I understand the article properly.)
Another part of the exhibit had a tunnel with an elevated floor and a rotating pattern on the walls of the tunnel. Again, people found it very difficult (as you can see from the video) even to stand up in the tunnel, let alone walk to the far end. I assure you that the falling-over behavior is not what that person normally does, and if she would just close her eyes, she'd sway much...
Except you see, those are full envirions that are designed to manipulate with your senses.
Things like Mirror Image does no such things. All it does is create duplicates of you around you. The Idea is that it is harder to hit the "real you" because you throw off their aim and make them hit a duplicate. This would have 0 effect on a person's sense of sight at all. Blur does nothing more but make it so that fighting you would be like trying to fight a person with "Drunk Goggles" on.
What you are talking about your require a more large scale illusionary effect.
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But makes a 0 lick of sense... especially in an actual combat situation... I mean, really? you hit BETTER with your eyes closed?Honestly this whole "well close your eyes! You will hit better!" thing is really dumb...Dunno, it worked well for Luke Skywalker. And Zatoichi. It's very cinematic to train for the possibility that someone will try to confuse you visually, so you block out the confusion and strike from the heart or some such fortune cookie.
It's dumb for the melees to be able counteract the magic users through feats?
No wonder you're one of the great advocates for the "Martials suck" camp. You have no issue with a caster using spell slots to bend reality, but the moment someone shuts their eyes to counter the illusions, you get bent out of shape.
I didn't expect that from you Kat.
I've actually done training in martial arts for dark conditions. It's all about the style of defenses and the aggressiveness of the attacks. The hardest bit is keeping your opponent within strike range and in correct orientation. Also, it hurts a lot because your basically flailing at each other without the usual controlled attacks. Not something we did a lot of, and we were fully padded up. Still sucked, but can be done.
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Mirror image actually magically shifts you around the five foot square so you never know which one is real. It's like the magic trick with the three cups and the ball.
If you can't trust your eyes, don't use them especially if you've trained for it.
I still can't believe you of all people think this is cheezy Kat. It's a rule as written and is effective at negating niche defensive measures. It requires a feat slot, far more investment than the spell slots spent to get the illusion buffs up. Balances well, and serves to scare the pants off casters suddenly.
For PCs it's a smart investment.
For DM's its good to use occasionally so players stay on their toes.
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The reroll is improved blind fight.** spoiler omitted **Shut eyes and blind fight ignores all those buffs. Drops each miss chance to 25%. It doesn't take too many hits to kill mr wizard.
Blind Fight still has a 50% miss chance. Same as you would have with your eyes open fighting anyone with Displacement.
To drop your miss change to 20%, you need Greater Blind Fight.
50% miss for fighting eyes closed. Re roll with 50% miss chance as consequence of blind fight feat. Combined probability law makes that a 25 % miss for each attack you would normally hit with.
In other words, it negates displacement and mirror image completely. So for the buffs outlined in the spoiler that was given, that one feat ruins most of the buffs.
But not something that's going to pop up all that often. Probably about as often as the party should run into a caster rocking mirror image, blur and displacement I would think.
I guess it depends on the reasons you play. Many folks on these boards seem to play competitively. Me and my mates play for co operative play and relaxation.
Cheers
Wrong sorry. See Aratocks post.
I will note, Blind-Fight is a great countermeasure to Mirror Image, but it's very rare that monsters use that spell. My dragon style Oread monk has the feat (it works in three ways, earthsense as an Oread, blindsense as a dragon, or general monk mysticism trope), but I haven't used it yet.
What if getting hit with an AOO meant an end to your move action?
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What if getting hit with an AOO meant an end to your move action?
Absolutely Marcus. There are abilities that allow for just such a thing of course.
But then, there are skills and abilities that allow enemies to close and avoid AoOs completely. There are builds for monks, rogues and fighters that I've seen on these boards where getting past the front liners is really easy for them. This then makes the enemy have to change their battle plan as you now have a PC (or NPC) amongst their own defensive lines. You don't need to cop AoOs to close with casters, but it is difficult.
However, just as I mentioned above about using blind fighting enemies to negate miss chance spells, using acrobatic enemies to dance past your defensive line is not something to pull all the time.
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I will note, Blind-Fight is a great countermeasure to Mirror Image, but it's very rare that monsters use that spell. My dragon style Oread monk has the feat (it works in three ways, earthsense as an Oread, blindsense as a dragon, or general monk mysticism trope), but I haven't used it yet.
I found it great for invisible foes, low light conditions, concealing fogs or scenery, blur and anything else that had miss chance to concealment. It essentially halves the miss chance of those effects as a consequence of the re roll.
More importantly, it removed lots of penalties for fighting against foes you can't see.
In the Second Darkness campaign I'm playing in, the melee characters nearly all have that feat, since the situations it's useful for pop up quite a bit in that campaign.
Also, that campaign in particular we've seen a great deal of the enemy rushing our casters because they are very familiar with fighting mixed parties of Martials and casters. It's not something our group finds an issue, because it makes a great deal of sense for that campaign.
Cheers
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And unless they have some trauma against women, they shouldnt rush head in against mages or wizards.I think it's really great when we start grouping "women" in with "mages" on the list of "people who are easy to kill and need protecting". Sexism is just so cool! And it's so nice to see that the work paizo put into being inclusive get completely wasted!
/sarcasm.
I think he was referencing earlier posts about wizards wearing robes and people calling them dresses.
However, you have a valid point.
Why do so many people seem to think you need to give players an AOO to target casters?
Last month my Witch, when the party ran into some Orcs seem two of the Orcs where armed with short composite bows and had built hunters platform in the trees. And once I cast my first spell they then made me their main target
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Why do so many people seem to think you need to give players an AOO to target casters?
Last month my Witch, when the party ran into some Orcs seem two of the Orcs where armed with short composite bows and had built hunters platform in the trees. And once I cast my first spell they then made me their main target
That is an entirely different scenario than what has been discussed to date. Archers in a fortified and elevated position can attack targets as they present themselves.
It is also not your typical encounter.
And unless they have some trauma against women, they shouldnt rush head in against mages or wizards.I think it's really great when we start grouping "women" in with "mages" on the list of "people who are easy to kill and need protecting". Sexism is just so cool! And it's so nice to see that the work paizo put into being inclusive get completely wasted!
/sarcasm.
Though I agree with your gripe, I also would make a note that, humorously, if "woman" and "mage" share the same grouping of "easy to kill" in this game, then that pretty much puts "woman" in the category of "potentially the most powerful and best thing ever". :P
As others have pointed out, mages are not easy to kill. Notice that in my explanation, I never actually mentioned that the meat-tank would actually kill the VIP in question by closing into melee with it. I made mention that it was pressing threat and forcing them onto the defensive, which means that the VIP will need to consider (strongly) actions that would prolong its existence rather than those that would hinder or end the existence of your friends.
IE - if you make the wizard use teleport instead of cloudkill, you've scored one for team-meat-tank.