Goblin Squad Member
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So my understanding is a crafting only settlement can only train crafting not classes.
This means the fighter/cleric/wizard rogue etc must train elsewhere.
Will the Towers belonging to a crafting settlement allow them to still use their higher level combat abilities?
More particularly does this make a crafting only settlement vulnerable to a concerted effort to remove towers thus degrading their combat abilities far more than would occur with a class based settlement ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Class settlements also come with crafting training and facilities necessary for your classes, but not everything you will want to have. Crafting settlements on the other hand have all crafting trainers and facilities plus an auction house, but no class training. You can go train at other settlements for skills or feats yours does not teach, but if you train a higher level feat or skill than your settlement supports (based on the number of towers you control), you will not have access to that feat or skill. So crafters can go train class skills at friendly settlements, but have to keep their own settlement upgraded through claiming towers to use the skills they learn.
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My concern is that between any two "Class Role" focused settlements the training for any given skill/feat/craft will be available between them, completely bypassing any advantage the ACE role Settlement will have had. If the towers determine what level the Settlement training is, then having all non Role training advance at the same level or rate that the "Class" settlements will be just as good at crafting/harvesting/refining, without having to make those hard choices.
Lets say the Class focused types train half the Roles, and half of the trade/craftskills. These settlements will NEED to have at least half of the feat trainers from outside the power 4 roles JUST to allow their players to get the attribute bonuses they need to advance past level 2 or so.
If day 1 of WoT hits, and people are setup into what archetype their settlement will be and ACE Settlements can't train any Roles, then recruitment for said locations is going to be very, very difficult at a time when we need it most.
"Hey newbies! Want to join the war of towers? Join us as we try and fend off better trained PCs so we can all continue to focus on non-combat abilities."
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Goblin Squad Member
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"So crafters can go train class skills at friendly settlements, but have to keep their own settlement upgraded through claiming towers to use the skills they learn."
If you go to a friendly settlement and train a fighter to level six, and have six towers, you'll be fine. If you have three towers, you'll lose access to some of your abilities a month after you train them. It's possible the 30 day cool-down on skill degradation will not be in place. If not, things will be more complex. If it is, I'm guessing that the closer settlement alliances will have a somewhat migratory population (at least for a while) as citizens move to another settlement for a week in order to lock-down their role support for the following month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My concern is that between any two "Class Role" focused settlements the training for any given skill/feat/craft will be available between them, completely bypassing any advantage the ACE role Settlement will have had. If the towers determine what level the Settlement training is, then having all non Role training advance at the same level or rate that the "Class" settlements will be just as good at crafting/harvesting/refining, without having to make those hard choices.
I'll be a crafter (refiner) for a settlement that will have class roles in WoT. To get our crafters' skills up, we're going to need a crafting settlement somewhere. To do routine high-level crafting we're going to need a high-level crafting settlement nearby. If we don't have that... then our class warriors will have to trade for every bit of the good gear - the stuff that lets them use their high-level feats. I'm likely going to be living out of the crafter town, where I can craft and bank materials.
(I rather every town had a bit more self-sufficiency. We're being wedged into blocs of 3+ settlement by these rules, as well as being herded into settlements.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...between any two "Class Role" focused settlements the training for any given skill/feat/craft will be available between them...
I'm not sure I understand. A Settlement which chose Rogue/Wizard, for example, wouldn't have Dowser training, nor Bowyer, nor the other Gathering, Refining, and Crafting Feats.
As we've seen in other threads, learning some crafting skills will be important--in the beginning--for the Characteristic increases, even if one doesn't intend to use the Feat itself. Crafters will also benefit from learning some basic combat Feats, so all citizens of both Settlements will have incentive to visit each.
As I understand it, the amount of support, for all Feats of both types, will be determined by how many towers each Settlement holds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game is being heavily designed to encourage building relationships with both neighbors and farther away entities (at least until you have enough population to conquer or found new settlements), this is just the tip of it. I would expect more choices like this in the long run as specializations and factions start getting rolled out down the line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Class settlements also come with crafting training and facilities necessary for your classes, but not everything you will want to have. Crafting settlements on the other hand have all crafting trainers and facilities plus an auction house, but no class training. You can go train at other settlements for skills or feats yours does not teach, but if you train a higher level feat or skill than your settlement supports (based on the number of towers you control), you will not have access to that feat or skill. So crafters can go train class skills at friendly settlements, but have to keep their own settlement upgraded through claiming towers to use the skills they learn.
This is somewhat ambiguous to me.
Do the number of towers increase support for ALL feats or just the ones your buildings will support?
If its as I suspect the latter then a crafting settlement could not support any feats outside of crafting as I do not see any combat support buildings in them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Class settlements also come with crafting training and facilities necessary for your classes, but not everything you will want to have. Crafting settlements on the other hand have all crafting trainers and facilities plus an auction house, but no class training. You can go train at other settlements for skills or feats yours does not teach, but if you train a higher level feat or skill than your settlement supports (based on the number of towers you control), you will not have access to that feat or skill. So crafters can go train class skills at friendly settlements, but have to keep their own settlement upgraded through claiming towers to use the skills they learn.This is somewhat ambiguous to me.
Do the number of towers increase support for ALL feats or just the ones your buildings will support?
If its as I suspect the latter then a crafting settlement could not support any feats outside of crafting as I do not see any combat support buildings in them.
In your proto settlement, EVERYTHING is supported up to whatever limit the towers you hold, allow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is somewhat ambiguous to me.
Do the number of towers increase support for ALL feats or just the ones your buildings will support?
If its as I suspect the latter then a crafting settlement could not support any feats outside of crafting as I do not see any combat support buildings in them.
So crafters can go train class skills at friendly settlements, but have to keep their own settlement upgraded through claiming towers to use the skills they learn.
This doesn't seem at all ambiguous to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, regardless of what type of Settlement you have, everything you could possibly want will be Supported up to a certain level and that level is only determined by the number of Towers your Settlement controls?
Do I have that right?
Correct. Everything is supported at the level of your tower count. You just have to find someplace to train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...between any two "Class Role" focused settlements the training for any given skill/feat/craft will be available between them...I'm not sure I understand. A Settlement which chose Rogue/Wizard, for example, wouldn't have Dowser training, nor Bowyer, nor the other Gathering, Refining, and Crafting Feats.
Unless something's changed that I've missed, they will. I recall Lee saying that they would have "some basic to intermediate crafting". The question is whether "basic to intermediate" is sufficiently limited for anyone to care enough about not having access to higher tiers during the WotT for a crafting settlement to be useful. Put differently, a crafting focused settlement is useless until the demand from Role-focused settlements outstrips their internal production ability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When the WoT is over and our true Settlements are established, will they be started from the ground up with just a Fort or will we be given a few structures based on our previous Settlement Type choice?
All we've been promised is some "DI support" buildings based on our average tower holdings. Essentially a few mostly cosmetic buildings that will help to pay for any real buildings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We will be given a fort and a pile of building materials. Template choice will have no lasting effect on city infrastructure.
Settlement which have consistently held adequate numbers of towers will also be gifted a small number of civic assets/ decorations, which are non-interactable structures which provide small DI boosts.
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Put differently, a crafting focused settlement is useless until the demand from Role-focused settlements outstrips their internal production ability.
Considering that you would currently need access to at least two role based settlements to be able to craft all your own gear (for both access to training and crafting buildings) I think it will still end up serving a purpose.
A centralized crafting hub that has all the required crafter buildings and also has a built in auction house that no other template gets could end up being a big deal. Otherwise you need to run back and forth between at least two settlements to make your items and then you have rely on trading in person or from a shared bank. I'm also ignoring that the odds are good most people will not train every crafting profession that is required to make a piece of gear. So they would need to trade for the parts they can't make/refine themselves, which is way easier with an auction house.
Considering how much effort goes into one item, and who knows what the rate of item removal will be at this point, I wouldn't be horribly surprised if it takes quite awhile before people are continuously running around with just slightly better than starter equipment from mobs. Especially if there aren't that many full crafting settlements churning out gear and selling via convenient local auction houses as fast as they can.
So my understanding is a crafting only settlement can only train crafting not classes.
This means the fighter/cleric/wizard rogue etc must train elsewhere.
Will the Towers belonging to a crafting settlement allow them to still use their higher level combat abilities?
More particularly does this make a crafting only settlement vulnerable to a concerted effort to remove towers thus degrading their combat abilities far more than would occur with a class based settlement ?
Just talking with no evidence, I think as a crafting settlement you would be valued by other settlements because they need to craft as well. However, I am not sure how you would hold your towers. You may have to hope to interact with some of your neighbors and get help. Ideally, you could even be next to a strong combat group and they could let you take some towers to get your count up.
Of course, that's not to say they wouldn't crush you once they got what they wanted. Always worry about that in games. Still, I think it would work. Just make sure you find trustworthy people. I've found non-combat is just as if not more important than combat. If you can craft as well as train crafters, you are set.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont't think, holding your towers wiil be the problem, it's just that you don't bring anything useful to the table. Aside from the auction house, 2 complementing settlements have almost all the crafting options between them, and any group of three different settlement types almost certainly does.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah, the Market will be enough of an advantage to make it decidedly useful.
In addition, only a crafting focused protosettlement will be able to handle the entire pipeline for many items. Others will have to do a brisk trade in refined components to complete the production chain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know that Lee has published the buildings specific to each of the 7 proto-settlement types. Perhaps It would be useful to post that here so non-alpha players can see.
There are some crafting and refining in each of the dual-core settlements. E.g. a community with clerics includes Artificer, Apothecary and Iconographer in addition to Seminary and Temple.
But Crafting center only place where all of the refining and crafting can be done{ Keep,auction house and 13 refining/crafting centers. Having the auction house may be the only place our characters can go to sell other than one to one trade window.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Spoiler:Building TypesArcane Training
Academy - trains wizard role feats
War Wizard School - trains damage focused cantrips
Occultist School - trains debuff/buff/crowd control cantripsDivine Training
Temple - trains cleric role feats
Seminary - trains orisonsSneaky Training
Thieves’ Guild - trains rogue role feats
Skirmisher School - trains light melee and ranged combat featsMartial Training
College - trains fighter feats
Dreadnaught School - trains heavy melee combat featsArcane Crafting
Alchemist’s Lab - produces potions and other consumables
Arcanist’s Workshop - refines magical components
Artificer's Workshop - makes staves and wands
Tailor - produces cloth armor, mainly for wizardsDivine Crafting
Apothecary - refines chemicals
Iconographer - produces holy symbols and other cleric itemsSneaky Crafting
Leatherworker - produces leather armor
Sawmill - refines wood
Tannery - refines leather
Woodshop - refines
Geologist - refines gems
Institute of Technology - builds rogue tools (note this does not have its own model yet and will likely be combined in with another building)Martial Crafting
Armorer - produces metal armor armor
Geologist - refines gems
Weaponmaster - produces melee weapons
Smeltmill - refines metals
Jewelers - produces jeweleryGeneral
Keep
Auction House - allows indirect buying and selling of itemsThe settlement types available, with the buildings in each, are:
Cleric/Fighter Town
1. Arcanist’s Workshop
2. Apothecary
3. Armorer
4. College
5. Dreadnaught School
6. Dueling School
7. Geologist
8. Iconographer
9. Jewelers
10. Keep
11. Weaponmaster
12. Seminary
13. Skirmisher School
14. Smeltmill
15. TempleWizard/Rogue Town
1. Academy
2. Arcanist’s Workshop
3. Artificer’s Workshop
4. Institute of Technology
5. Keep
6. Leatherworker
7. Loom
8. Occultist School
9. Sawmill
10. Skirmisher School
11. Tailor
12. Tannery
13. Thieves’ Guild
14. War Wizard School
15. WoodshopCrafting Town
Alchemist’s Lab
Apothecary
Arcanist’s Workshop
Artificer’s Workshop
Armorer
Auction House
Geologist
Iconographer
Institute of Technology
Jewelers
Keep
Leatherworker
Weaponmaster
Sawmill
Smeltmill
Tailor
Tannery
WoodshopWizard/Cleric Town
1. Academy
2. Alchemist’s Lab
3. Apothecary
4. Arcanist’s Workshop
5. Artificer’s Workshop
6. Armorer
7. Dreadnaught School
8. Iconographer
9. Keep
10. Loom
11. Occultist School
12. Seminary
13. Tailor
14. Temple
15. War Wizard SchoolRogue/Fighter Town
1. Alchemist’s Lab
2. Apothecary
3. Armorer
4. College
5. Dreadnaught School
6. Institute of Technology
7. Keep
8. Leatherworker
9. Weaponmaster
10. Sawmill
11. Skirmisher School
12. Smeltmill
13. Tannery
14. Thieves’ Guild
15. WoodshopCleric/Rogue Town
1. Alchemist’s Lab
2. Apothecary
3. Geologist
4. Iconographer
5. Institute of Technology
6. Keep
7. Leatherworker
8. Sawmill
9. Seminary
10. Skirmisher School
11. Smeltmill
12. Tannery
13. Temple
14. Thieves’ Guild
15. WeaponmasterFighter/Wizard Town
1. Academy
2. Arcanist’s Workshop
3. Artificer’s Workshop
4. Armorer
5. College
6. Dreadnaught School
7. Keep
8. Loom
9. Occultist School
10. Weaponmaster
11. Sawmill
12. Smeltmill
13. Tailor
14. War Wizard School
15. Woodshop
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Goblin Squad Member
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Put differently, a crafting focused settlement is useless until the demand from Role-focused settlements outstrips their internal production ability.Considering that you would currently need access to at least two role based settlements to be able to craft all your own gear (for both access to training and crafting buildings) I think it will still end up serving a purpose.
This is only true if you need gear from two roles that are not colocated in a settlement. If you are in a town that trains role skills, it will have all of the crafting facilities necessary to create gear for that role. So, if you're in a rogue/fighter settlement, and are only training rogue skills, you're fine. You only need to branch out to other settlements for gear if you're training rogue and cleric, or rogue and wizard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We haven't seen the market mechanics yet but the obvious assumption would be that anyone allowed in the town can use the market.
A smaller citizens-only market would be a great option for settlements that don't want to invest in a full-sized market, but there's no sign yet of such a design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, where are people getting the idea that with the War of the Towers you are going to be limited on what skills you already have trained you can use? This makes absolutely no sense. From what I have read the only thing affected by how many towers you control is what level skill your trainers can train, not weather you can use the skills you already have trained. Limiting what skills you can USE based off of the number of towers your settlement controls sounds like a nightmare to code.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Every settlement will support level 8, since that is what Thornkeep does and it doesn't make sense to be worse than that. If you have more than six towers, you will be able to support more.
Training at other settlements is possible, and limited by geopolitical reality more than game mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe a Settlement with no Towers will be on par with Thornkeep.
In the last Gobbocast, the number of levels supported was stated as number of towers +2, but no less than 8, quite specifically. Of course, Thornkeep may have other advantages, but level-wise, it should be on par.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the discussion.
The crafting town seems a very one-sided affair. Either it is sheer genius to go for and train elsewhere (guess no problem finding places to train if you are friendly with others) or it is a really, really bad choice as you can't train up basic defences at all.
I will follow this discussion with interest.
I dont't think, holding your towers wiil be the problem, it's just that you don't bring anything useful to the table. Aside from the auction house, 2 complementing settlements have almost all the crafting options between them, and any group of three different settlement types almost certainly does.
You think? Crafting goes a long way. It's gather, too. There will be settlements (and players with DT) who will have the ability to craft their own gear, but I doubt everything. Maybe the largest ones with have something comparable, but I kind of disagree also with the comment it's how you play the social game... unless social means crafting.
If you wanna be Neutral and bring something great to the table, even delivering or going out to meet people with low rep, it'd be a big hit.
Would a settlement blacklist you if you brought a trade caravan to their town and they were trying to sell, too?
There will always be people who need gear. Even in a guild has x amount of crafters with mats ready, there are times when they won't be around. If this game ends up over-saturated with crafts, I will be surprised.
And, arguably, if it does that's bad game design.
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Goblin Squad Member
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snip ...
If you wanna be Neutral and bring something great to the table, even delivering or going out to meet people with low rep, it'd be a big hit.
... snip
Even a neutral settlement needs figthing power. Be it to better survive while gathering, to get accomplishments or to take over towers.
But it hasn't alluded me as leader of the Emerald Lodge that it would bring something useful to the table as a neutral town.
Are there any settlements who openly declare they will be crafter settlements ?
And knowing Gurrzak I assume he means with the social game that it is even more important for a crafter town as for any other town to play the politics right. You offer something valuable to neighbours but it also makes you dependent on them.
If they block you fighters, wizards, rogues, clerics to train then you have a problem. Getting a wagonload of bows, swords or armour in is likely easier to solve as when a close neighbour closes his border.
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snip ...
If you wanna be Neutral and bring something great to the table, even delivering or going out to meet people with low rep, it'd be a big hit.
... snip
Even a neutral settlement needs figthing power. Be it to better survive while gathering, to get accomplishments or to take over towers.
But it hasn't alluded me as leader of the Emerald Lodge that it would bring something useful to the table as a neutral town.
Are there any settlements who openly declare they will be crafter settlements ?
And knowing Gurrzak I assume he means with the social game that it is even more important for a crafter town as for any other town to play the politics right. You offer something valuable to neighbours but it also makes you dependent on them.
If they block you fighters, wizards, rogues, clerics to train then you have a problem. Getting a wagonload of bows, swords or armour in is likely easier to solve as when a close neighbour closes his border.
It would suck if your settlement got destroyed, but on the other hand, if that happened... say your neighbor decided you were just a weak settlement and didn't need you, so they go in and just blow up everything you have.
You've lost everything, that sucks... but your character still exists. You could then say, "man, my crafting settlement was a fun idea until THESE GUYS came in and messed it up." Then 'take your talents' elsewhere and eventually destroy them using the power of your new guild behind you. Then, start again.
I think people undervalue exp dependent characters. Meaning that you can't really rob a crafter of their power. They are an asset where-ever they are. And if someone gets stupid, then they can become an enemy.
The key is to produce high level stuff. I don't know how high tier stuff can be, in regards to others, though. In some games there is science behind it, where you have to figure stuff out. Since PFO has a more basic system, I don't know how much knowledge and dedication to craft will help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With no mechanisms to prevent it, I doubt that anyone can stop anyone else from training in their settlement. They may code membership requirements in and "whitelist ability" but I don't see it in MVP. Not when they are already scaling back MVP.
I haven't heard or read anything, along those lines, of functional control being available for WotT.
That leaves us with the only option (to prevent outsiders using our facilities) being to kill and take the rep hit (outside the PVP window).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The role-focused settlements will very much need the facilities of any craft-focused settlement, and in any consequence role-focused settlement that owns a lick of sense will queue up for the opportunity to help defend that crafting settlement, whether the crafters are wonderful diplomats or not, so long as they are tolerable and non-threatening.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The role-focused settlements will very much need the facilities of any craft-focused settlement, and in any consequence role-focused settlement that owns a lick of sense will queue up for the opportunity to help defend that crafting settlement, whether the crafters are wonderful diplomats or not, so long as they are tolerable and non-threatening.
You can bet your Sweet Potatoes that I will defend and organize aid for any near by "crafting town" that is both friendly and has the power to take enough towers to be a valuable training/crafting/trading center.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont't think, holding your towers wiil be the problem, it's just that you don't bring anything useful to the table. Aside from the auction house, 2 complementing settlements have almost all the crafting options between them, and any group of three different settlement types almost certainly does.You think? Crafting goes a long way. It's gather, too. There will be settlements (and players with DT) who will have the ability to craft their own gear, but I doubt everything. Maybe the largest ones with have something comparable, but I kind of disagree also with the comment it's how you play the social game... unless social means crafting.
What I meant to express was this: Any settlement, in order to provide all necessary training to its members, will likely have to make agreements with their neighbors to provide complementing training (and crafting) facilities and to allow each other use of these facilities.
Now, if my settlement were a Cleric/Fighter town, I would need to "team up" with a Wizard/Rogue town of similar size, ideally. Even crafting issues aside, I would need to do this, just to provide all training in role feats. Now, if you look at the crafting facilities that these two provide, then aside from the Auction House they have everything but the Alchemist's Lab (even the Loom that is so curiously missing from the pure crafting settlement).
If my hypothetical settlement were looking for a partner town, basically ANY but a pure crafting town would be the better choice. Pure crafting settlements really only ever become useful as the third partner in any such alliance. And even then, all they add is the Auction house and one or two missing crafting facilities. Rather meager offerings, compared to the fact that the other two partners in that alliance provice them with ALL the role-based training they need in return. Of course, the one other advantage they do offer is having everything together in one place, so as to save all the running to the next settlement...
So, yes, individually, they bring fairly little to the negotiating table. As the trading hub in a larger proto-nation, they can find a useful place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the things I noticed in the description of crafting for the class towns was that they would include "crafting training and facilities necessary for your classes, but not everything you will want to have" while crafting is listed as "have all crafting trainers and facilities plus an auction house, but no class training".
You could take the "not everything you want to have" as either a few nice crafting abilities for those roles you picked are not included, or it could mean just that you don't have the crafting abilities of the roles you didn't pick.