Goblin Squad Member
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It seems sad if we only form cooperative "ventures" with people that can bring more or other things to the table than we can. To me, someone that brings enough of the same values, some eager particapatory bodies, and maybe some diversity (game mechanic, and personality) is very welcome.
The most important thing is: are they cool people? ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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When it comes to considering trade, one always needs to keep in mind comparative advantage. Everyone can gain from trade, even if one partner's better at everything than another.
I would say cooperative ventures come in various forms. For example Canis Castrum has already put in our choice to Lee, we will be using the crafting template and receiving combat training via our allies and friends. This allows us to specialize our focus while giving our friends a centralized place to craft and sell goods. By our judgement crafting will be a far more tedious task to split between multiple settlements than running out to a neighbor for combat training every few days.
But to even engage in such a level of cooperation we had to form connections with some of our neighbors. While it may have started somewhat out of necessity I would say it has grown to a shared philosophy. Now that we have achieved the bare minimum to operate as desired I hope that we can grow and spread our philosophy with others who may be interested in working with us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the success of regional auction houses will also depend on their distance from Thornkeep and their proximity other "frontier" settlements. Anyone facing an hour-long overland haul to Thornkeep may find an auction house three or so hexes away very attractive.
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If other games are any sort of sign NPC auction houses will become the defacto place regardless of distances unless some other factor severely limits them.
While PFO is structured to encourage more reliance on your neighbor an NPC AH will always be impartial and available comparatively. While players might be able to carve out a tiny corner I think it would be just that, tiny. The only sure way to encourage diverse markets to pop up (and have them impact the political atmosphere) is to not let NPCs offer superior services. Since they aren't doing that with the training, the core mechanic of the game, I will be surprised if they do not do the same for the economic portion. But time will tell either way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the success of regional auction houses will also depend on their distance from Thornkeep and their proximity other "frontier" settlements. Anyone facing an hour-long overland haul to Thornkeep may find an auction house three or so hexes away very attractive.
Yup. I'll be at Brighthaven, and if there's a market at Keeper's Pass, 5 hexes away, I'll use that instead of Thornkeep, 14 hexes away. I'll let people playing merchants keep the market stocked. (If the price differential is large between the two markets is large, I'll just consider getting into the merchant game and shipping goods myself.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the success of regional auction houses will also depend on their distance from Thornkeep and their proximity other "frontier" settlements. Anyone facing an hour-long overland haul to Thornkeep may find an auction house three or so hexes away very attractive.Yup. I'll be at Brighthaven, and if there's a market at Keeper's Pass, 5 hexes away, I'll use that instead of Thornkeep, 14 hexes away. I'll let people playing merchants keep the market stocked. (If the price differential is large between the two markets is large, I'll just consider getting into the merchant game and shipping goods myself.)
Their is usually a price differential in smaller markets. Your goods sit around far longer before selling so you need a bigger markup to maintain the same profit per week.
Generally the differential is directly realted to the turnover of the item. In fact mined/gathered goods can often be cheaper at remote markerts whereas rare goods have a huge markup.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just because a settlement chooses to go with a Market build, or a Combat Class build, does not mean they can not support those skills outside of their focus.
They may not be on par with NPC settlement training, but they may chose to have the small support buildings to maintain the skills gained elsewhere.
A Fighter / Rogue settlement can still train gathering, refining and crafting, for the items that those classes use. What they won't have is an auction house, but that does not mean there will be no trade. Trade will just be done person to person.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The most important thing is: are they cool people? ;)
Despite the danger of spinning off topic, we all, I think, tend toward preferring to affiliate with those we like or admire. Yet after reading your post I found myself wondering whether that whole tendency to favor of 'cool' people and to have aversion to 'uncool' people may someday be a contentious issue of political correctness.
Is it like the tendency of 'pretty' or 'handsome' people to more reliably find employment (and the tendency of less-than-handsome' people to reach positions of power)?
But I digress. Ignore the Being muttering to himself in the shadowed corner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The most important thing is: are they cool people? ;)Despite the danger of spinning off topic, we all, I think, tend toward preferring to affiliate with those we like or admire. Yet after reading your post I found myself wondering whether that whole tendency to favor of 'cool' people and to have aversion to 'uncool' people may someday be a contentious issue of political correctness.
Is it like the tendency of 'pretty' or 'handsome' people to more reliably find employment (and the tendency of less-than-handsome' people to reach positions of power)?
But I digress. Ignore the Being muttering to himself in the shadowed corner.
I don't think that you are getting my meaning when I write the term "cool". It has nothing to do with the avenue that you took it down. Perhaps I didn't elaborate enough in my context.
It has nothing to do with popularity or success and more to do with how they communicate, coexist, and playstyles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup. I'll be at Brighthaven, and if there's a market at Keeper's Pass, 5 hexes away, I'll use that instead of Thornkeep, 14 hexes away. I'll let people playing merchants keep the market stocked. (If the price differential is large between the two markets is large, I'll just consider getting into the merchant game and shipping goods myself.)Their is usually a price differential in smaller markets. Your goods sit around far longer before selling so you need a bigger markup to maintain the same profit per week. ...
I'm fine with a price differential. If I have to take the time to carry goods to a distant market there's an opportunity cost - what could I have done in that time? - as well as more risk.
There may be a markup in the regional markets compared to the NPC towns. It might not apply to all goods, because high skill people will usually belong to settlements. For example, if there are more Tier 2-3 weaponsmiths in the hinterlands, then good weapons might be readily available there. Tier 3 weapons might be more dear in Thornkeep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, alright. I get you.
I hope that the game does not degenerate into a "cool kids" and "uncool kids" thing. I really see polarization happening (in general) toward alignments and percieved alignments, toward "groups" of friends and inclusion of newly met players into that, and general playstyle philosophies (that oddly reflect my take on alignments).
This all as a "general" perception. Not to say that there are not odd exceptions in many cases. I also see many newer people jumping into the first group that writes the perfect greeting, whether the playstyles match or not. :)
In the long run, there will be some "elitest" organizations that have their expectations/standards/checklists of suitability. I don't think that any progressive, growth oriented group can afford too lean far into exclusivity. Will be interesting to see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope that there is at least one craft-only settlement per "alliance". And I hope it is relatively nearby. We've been sort of spoiled in the fact that neither encumbrance nor fatigue/endurance has been activated yet. So everyone has been literally running over long distances.
But once those activate, no more running long distance, just the normal jog that could mean a very long time to travel, oh say, 8 hexes to get to your friendly craft-only buddy village while dodging enemy PCs and creatures out in the very dangerous world.
And of course, dropping from 5000 xp per hour to only 100 xp is going to be the most massive sticker shock EVER!
To be smart, a craft-only village might not want to be on the edge of the "alliance territory", especially if that edge is near a hostile "alliance". Better to be in the middle somewhere, also makes it easier for everyone to get to that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your settlement must support your class, or after 30 days, you lose access to any training they do not support. A settlement with 6 towers will support any role to level 8 apparently.
Yes, loose access to training, not loose feats, skills etc. that you already paid for. If you loose access to training to level 12, that doesn't mean you loose all your level 12 abilities, it means you can't train form level 11 to level 12 until the settlement gets access to level 12 back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, loose access to training, not loose feats, skills etc. that you already paid for. If you loose access to training to level 12, that doesn't mean you loose all your level 12 abilities, it means you can't train form level 11 to level 12 until the settlement gets access to level 12 back.Your settlement must support your class, or after 30 days, you lose access to any training they do not support. A settlement with 6 towers will support any role to level 8 apparently.
I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that if your settlement does not support your skills, you lose the ability to use those levels after 30 days. You would still have them, but they will degrade to the lower level. The description that was once used is an athlete that fails to train for a long period.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This talk of assaulting a Settlement won't even be in during the WoT, right? That's the point of the Towers, giving us something to fight over? Then after the world goes kablooey you can design your settlement however you wish, no need to hold onto these templates?
That is the intent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want the open air baths on the east side, the Romanesque bathhouse on the west side, the Viking sweat lodge on the north side and the tanneries and slaughter yards on the south side.
Put the mayor's house next to the slaughter yards, that way, you really really have to want the job!
We will put the Wizard's Training Hall near the open air baths so that they can see how well they can concentrate on spell casting while listening to a bunch of naked women have fun in the baths.
The Cleric Training Hall also goes near the slaughter yards since it will help them get used to the smell of battle and death!
Fortress in the center. Houses to the north and west side. We will have to invent something called railroad tracks so we will know which people are living on the wrong side of them.
Join Kabal!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that if your settlement does not support your skills, you lose the ability to use those levels after 30 days. You would still have them, but they will degrade to the lower level. The description that was once used is an athlete that fails to train for a long period.Yes, loose access to training, not loose feats, skills etc. that you already paid for. If you loose access to training to level 12, that doesn't mean you loose all your level 12 abilities, it means you can't train form level 11 to level 12 until the settlement gets access to level 12 back.Your settlement must support your class, or after 30 days, you lose access to any training they do not support. A settlement with 6 towers will support any role to level 8 apparently.
That system makes no logical sense and would piss a lot of people off who paid serious XP for the skills. It would likely also be a nightmare for the developers to code. It would make much more sense and be far simpler to just limit what can be trained at the settlement based on number of towers. Also, what about transients? Those who don't care to participate in player settlements or switch between settlements?
Do you have a link to an official source on this?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is the current mechanic. Belonging to a settlement that supports your desired skills at the desired level is considered an important feature. Transients will be diminished, to be effective you will have to be part of some in game community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Drake, please consider the difference in arrogance between "this design makes no sense" and "I don't understand the reasoning process that led to this design." Rest assured that every element of the design makes at least a little bit of sense.
If only new training was limited by settlement reputation thresholds, then a character you no longer wished to train would be immune to the constraints of the reputation system. The support system is intended to prevent players from training up to a competent level and then turning rogue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you have a link to an official source on this?
(Not the best, but all I can come up with before work)
Support: Settlements also support skills, i.e. allow you to keep using skills if you have trained them.
The mechanism is intended to prevent characters with bad reputation from being functional. It is a core mechanic of the game, which helps force people to cooperate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that if your settlement does not support your skills, you lose the ability to use those levels after 30 days. You would still have them, but they will degrade to the lower level. The description that was once used is an athlete that fails to train for a long period.That system makes no logical sense and would piss a lot of people off who paid serious XP for the skills. It would likely also be a nightmare for the developers to code. It would make much more sense and be far simpler to just limit what can be trained at the settlement based on number of towers. Also, what about transients? Those who don't care to participate in player settlements or switch between settlements?
I think the system makes a lot of sense. Note, first and foremost that all that training isn't gone, it's just temporariky inaccessible to you. If you shift your allegiance to a bigger settlement, that does support you higher skills, (after a transition period?) you will be back to your old level without needing to re-spend any exp.
The one issue I have with this system is that it provides a serious incentive to move out of the smaller settlements and thus will cause a major loss of diversity as soon as players pass the lvl8-barrier. But as much as this bothers me, the devs have consistently said that settlements are meant to be in the hundreds of members if they want a chance of survival, not the current tiny ones. So for the small settlements this is basically an incentive to grow or perish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And even NPC settlements have a Limit I believeNPC Settlements support only what they train: Tier 1. To advance further, one needs to join a Settlement that supports what one wants to use. For training, one has a bit more flexibility.
I meant even NPC settlements have a reputation limit, I believe.
You don't want the jerks next to the new players, do you?|
Goblin Squad Member
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(after a transition period?)We've no affirmative statements either way, but I've seen no indications that there's a re-adjustment period. As soon as one joins a Settlement with appropriate support, one gets one's abilities back.
There might be a transition period in that it takes 24 hours to shift from one company to another company, and from one settlement to another settlement? Which does raise the question whether shifting from an NPC settlement to a PC settlement takes any time. I'd hope shifting from no company to a PC company would be almost instantaneous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We've been told that there will always be a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" NPC Settlement where even very Low Reputation Characters can get basic training and support.
It's also worth pointing out that having a Low Reputation doesn't automatically mean you can't get support from a High Reputation PC Settlement. It just means you can't enter that Settlement for Training. Apparently, there's no direct impact on the Settlement for you being Low Reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's also worth pointing out that having a Low Reputation doesn't automatically mean you can't get support from a High Reputation PC Settlement. It just means you can't enter that Settlement for Training. Apparently, there's no direct impact on the Settlement for you being Low Reputation.
I'd be very surprised if we saw a live design which allowed low-rep characters to take advantage of advanced feat support from high-threshold settlements, since that negates the entire purpose of the feat support model.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's also worth pointing out that having a Low Reputation doesn't automatically mean you can't get support from a High Reputation PC Settlement. It just means you can't enter that Settlement for Training. Apparently, there's no direct impact on the Settlement for you being Low Reputation.I'd be very surprised if we saw a live design which allowed low-rep characters to take advantage of advanced feat support from high-threshold settlements, since that negates the entire purpose of the feat support model.
Yeah, I was surprised when the devs verified this was actually intentional.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Drake,
While I don't like the system myself and think there are other ways it could have been addressed, that is the way it was designed. It does make internal sense, even while it does come with it's own downsides and is certain to alienate some people while it attracts others.
I wish GW had taken a different approach myself... but it is part of thier core design and not likely to change in significant ways. Just how successfull it ends up being is TBD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I was surprised when the devs verified this was actually intentional.It's also worth pointing out that having a Low Reputation doesn't automatically mean you can't get support from a High Reputation PC Settlement. It just means you can't enter that Settlement for Training. Apparently, there's no direct impact on the Settlement for you being Low Reputation.I'd be very surprised if we saw a live design which allowed low-rep characters to take advantage of advanced feat support from high-threshold settlements, since that negates the entire purpose of the feat support model.
Maybe its so the "good" settlements can run covops/black ops teams of assassins - for a good purpose of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, if that is the case, and I still think it is a BAD idea, then the survival of Crafting Only settlements is truly in danger If they can't support combatants to the same level as the crafting.
What I see as likely to happen is crafting settlements send off their combatants to "live" in Settlements that support their combat style and join Companies that give their towers to the Crafting Settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...If they can't support combatants to the same level as the crafting.
Settlements train to the level their held towers allow (level = towers +2). For support, I don't remember which of the following is true:
.1) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, or
2) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, as long as they have the towers to do so
Either way, support isn't tied to the choice the Settlement made.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...If they can't support combatants to the same level as the crafting.Settlements train to the level their held towers allow (level = towers +2). For support, I don't remember which of the following is true:
.1) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, or
2) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, as long as they have the towers to do so.Either way, support isn't tied to the choice the Settlement made.
I was going to make the same remark. I was just unsure that the context of the statement was exactly what I read it as. ;)
Probably a good thing that you did so that people don't get the wrong idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...If they can't support combatants to the same level as the crafting.Settlements train to the level their held towers allow (level = towers +2). For support, I don't remember which of the following is true:
.1) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, or
2) All Settlements support anything their folks've trained, as long as they have the towers to do soEither way, support isn't tied to the choice the Settlement made.
Reading the thread that was linked:
Basically we have two concepts involved in the settlements, training and support.:
Training: You can actively learn skills from a settlement and settlements can only teach up to a certain level.
Support: Settlements also support skills, i.e. allow you to keep using skills if you have trained them. If a settlement trains something it automatically supports it as well.For example, Torkville controls 6 towers and is a cleric/fighter settlement. It can train up to level 8 fighter and cleric related skills, feats, etc. It cannot train any wizard or rogue skills, but can support them up to level...say 5 (note I am pulling approxmiate numbers here, so if anyone tries to hold me to them in six months I will laugh and laugh). So people in the settlement can train and use up to level 8 skills for fighter and clerics, and if they train wizard and rogue skills somewhere else they can only use up to level 5 of those skills while being a member of that settlement. This is to stop people from bouncing around settlements, training everyone, and then being completely antisocial as they don't need any more training. But it does allow you to train classes other than those your settlement favors at allied settlements.
If you lose a tower and your settlement downgrades, it's training and support offerings go away, but this isn't immediate. You've got some time to fight back, or try and take some other tower, before the downgrade happens. Same sort of thing will happen in the final settlement system if you don't pay your upkeep on your training and support facilities.
So he is saying that your support for skills your settlement doesn't train will be lower then the support for skills your settlement does train. (He suggested a -3 in his example, but as he said, he was just using approximate numbers so if it is accurate it is just a coincidence.)