I am asking these questions for a PFS character.
I posted before in another thread about specifically my actual character and didn't really ask any questions about my Animal Companion. So here's the thread for that! I looked up about 12 other threads on the Beast Totem rage power and only two of them G. Furious Beast and didn't answer my question(s) clearly or at all.
My character is a Halfling Mounted Fury archetype barbarian. Let's assume he is level 8, has a medium size boar mount with 3 Int, has G. Ferocious Beast, and already has L. Beast Totem.
Lesser Beast Totem wrote: "While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. These attacks are considered primary attacks and are made at the barbarian’s full base attack bonus. The claws deal 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d4 if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier." Greater Ferocious Beast wrote: "While the barbarian is raging, her animal companion shares the benefits of the barbarian’s rage powers that are constant in effect. It gains no benefit from rage powers that require actions to activate, even if they are free actions. A barbarian must have the ferocious beast rage power and be at least 8th level to select this rage power." Looking through the natural attacks section doesn't mention an "appropriate limb" or anything like that.
Questions:
1) Is my boar animal companion able to use the claw attacks provided by the Lesser Beast Totem and Greater Ferocious Mount?
2a) If yes to #1, would he magically grow paws while raging or maybe just magically work?
2b) If no to #1, would he maybe instead get hoof attacks (same damage just different wording/type)?
3) At level 9 when the boar gets a second natural attack (foregoing Multiattack since he doesn't have 3 or more naturals) would the full attack routine be Gore BaB/Gore BaB-5 (and if the claws applied) another Claw-Hoof BaB-5/Claw-Hoof BaB-5? Or since Lesser Beast Totem states the claws are primary attacks it would be Gore Bab/Gore BaB-5/Claw-Hoof BaB/Claw-Hoof BaB?
4) Would the boar ever naturally qualify for Multiattack since he wouldn't permanently have 3 or more natural attacks?
5) I'm assuming he would qualify for Multiattack if I were to have him wear a magic item that gives, for example, a bite attack much like using stat boosting items qualify your character for feats?
6) If he were to qualify because of #5, would he still be able to use the feat if I were to sell the item in favor of another use for the slot?
Hopefully I stated my questions clearly enough. Thanks in advance!
1. Yes. He gains all the benefits, even if they make no sense.
2a. It just works
2b. no
3. I believe it would just be 3 primaries Gore/claw/claw
4. He doesn't get it
5. Magic items granting abilities such as natural attacks/stats, as long as they're always active, let you qualify for feats.
6. I'm not sure, but I guess yes.
Thanks for your response, Kiinyan!
Not to ask too much, but could you explain more why he would gain the attacks/how it works even it doesn't make sense? I am leaving the decision up to the DM of course but would like to see both sides of the evidence (how can hooves use claw attacks? vs. it works just because it's a fantasy game) before personally investing heavily into it.
3. The answer is he would get Gore BAB, Gore BAB-5, Claw BAB, Claw BAB
If you hasted it, you would get Gore BAB, Gore BAB, Gore BAB-5, Claw BAB, Claw BAB
The claws are primary attacks, so is the Gore, Multi-attack does nothing for him (none of his attacks are secondary) so he gets the iterative attack at 9th level.
Link to rules
If you check the NPC animal companions in the NPC codex, you will see that these follow the same rule guidelines set forth in that post.
It just works because that's what the rules say. Neither Greater Ferocious Beast nor Lesser beast Totem say anything about needing to have appropriate limbs, so the boar grows claws regardless. Where? Who knows? Doesn't matter, he has them. The GM can house-rule otherwise, but that's what the rules say.
Actually there is a relevant FAQ on this (Quadrupeds can have up to 4 claws, Bipeds can only have claws on hands)
Natural weapons never get iterative attacks.
Thank you very much for the link Jayder! I was unsure if choosing a natural attack type caused the other types to turn into secondary naturals hence the question.
Paladin, so there's no RAW anywhere that says you have to have an appropriate limb or anything similar?
David, I looked through the FAQs and I didn't find one dealing with that. Any chance you have that link saved? The iterative attacks part I get.
Really appreciating all the responses!
I'm assuming if a Halfling grows deadly shear like claws from stubby hobbit hands when angry, that akin to that weirdness a boars hooves similarly grow/extend to a double hooked claw type thing. Seems legit.
I mean the boar has limbs, it's not like we're talking about a snake animal companion in this scenario...that might actually cause me some concern!
My local DMs responded to my email about the issue (I mentioned in my email as an example Toothy being used with a full normal weapon attack). Here's what they said:
"1. I did not say that if you had two claws or a *secondary* natural attack that they would not get iteratives on that. However if a creature uses 2 claws and a bite they are using their full natural attack set – all at the full primary and they do not get iteratives on any of those natural attacks.
2. In the case of an orc doing this with a bite, the bite would be a secondary weapon and would not be combined with a longsword in one hand and a short sword for three attacks. The player would have to choose what the secondary attack is and use it. Thus if the PC in question had a longsword and chose to add the bite then at level 1-5 he’d get “Longsword/bite” with appropriate TWF penalties. At level 6-10 he’d get “Longsword/longsword-5/bite/bite-5” at appropriate additional TWF penalties. I disagree with the stack exchange answer and could post multiple Paizo discussion questions where my view is held. I ran my view by the Triad and we agreed on it, so that’s how we’re going to rule it.
a. If a fighter were converted to an octopus. He would 8 natural appendages. He could either make 8 attacks at full strength (each with a sword or natural slam attack) – OR – he could make a set of iterative attacks with a sword – OR – He could take two weapon fighting. He would *NOT* be allowed to take a full iterative attack with a sword plus 7 other natural attacks.
b. In your specific example of a level 4 barbarian with two claw attacks – he could use Two claw attacks at full BAB or choose a bad option of primary/secondary TWF attack.
3. The BOAR does not gain additional attacks or the ability to use hooves as claws. Bears and Lions and such are specifically called out as having claw attacks.
4. In answer to #5 the boar doesn’t convert hooves to claws and have 3 natural attacks. This is how I’m reading it."
So what I"m getting from the octopus example is someone can either use all their natural attacks OR use their iterative attacks and just a natural attack as one of the attacks. If TWF then a level 2 character could Longsword/Bite at -2/-2 assuming bite was a light natural weapon. Interesting.
David_Bross wrote: Actually there is a relevant FAQ on this (Quadrupeds can have up to 4 claws, Bipeds can only have claws on hands)
Natural weapons never get iterative attacks.
There is no such FAQ that I know of. Bipeds (RAW) can have claws on their feet.
Driver 325 yards wrote: David_Bross wrote: Actually there is a relevant FAQ on this (Quadrupeds can have up to 4 claws, Bipeds can only have claws on hands)
Natural weapons never get iterative attacks.
There is no such FAQ that I know of. Bipeds (RAW) can have claws on their feet. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk
FAQ wrote:
Claws and Talons: If I gain claw attacks, can I put those claw attacks on my feet?
If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
Talons are much like claws, but go on a creature's feet, usually a bipedal creature (especially a flying bipedal creature such as a giant eagle or harpy). An ability that grants you claw attacks cannot be used as if they were talon attacks (in other words, you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics so you can use it on a different limb).
David_Bross wrote: Driver 325 yards wrote: David_Bross wrote: Actually there is a relevant FAQ on this (Quadrupeds can have up to 4 claws, Bipeds can only have claws on hands)
Natural weapons never get iterative attacks.
There is no such FAQ that I know of. Bipeds (RAW) can have claws on their feet. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk
FAQ wrote:
Claws and Talons: If I gain claw attacks, can I put those claw attacks on my feet?
If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
Talons are much like claws, but go on a creature's feet, usually a bipedal creature (especially a flying bipedal creature such as a giant eagle or harpy). An ability that grants you claw attacks cannot be used as if they were talon attacks (in other words, you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics so you can use it on a different limb).
I stand corrected. Must be a relatively new FAQ.
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It was.
It was a response to tieflings trying to put claws on their feat so they could wield 2H weapons and get claw attack and the special note on Eidolons allowing them to put claws on their feet.
David_Bross wrote: Natural weapons never get iterative attacks. Unless over-ruled by FAQ, Animal Companions can get a secondary attack at level 9 if they only have two or fewer natural attacks:
Quote: Multiattack
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
Sadurian wrote: David_Bross wrote: Natural weapons never get iterative attacks. Unless over-ruled by FAQ, Animal Companions can get a secondary attack at level 9 if they only have two or fewer natural attacks:
Quote: Multiattack
An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
That is a specific thing for animal companions, and is an exception to the " You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus." rule. Specifically it gives you a bonus for reaching that level if you do not have requisite number of natural attacks.
Note if you have three or more natural attacks, then the bonus would become multi attack bonus feat instead, I believe. This might be worth clarification, but is such a corner case that I doubt anyone actually cares to FAQ it.
The question is about the natural attacks of an animal companion, so the animal companion rules apply in this case.
Can anyone spell out the rules for natural attacks and Lesser Beast Totem interacting with creatures that already get natural attacks? I've read quite a bit, so all I'd like is the stepping through the rules. My local PFS DMs ruled that gaining the two claw attacks just meant that my mount, the boar, could substitute its gore attack for a claw attack and at level 9 could substitute both for the claw attacks (2 Claws at full BaB and x1 Str instead of 2 Gores at BaB/BaB-5 but x1.5 Str).
I've always heard that natural attacks stack, so I'm not really understanding this ruling. I guess the interpretation for Lesser Beast Totem is "gain" means you have the option to use the attack but can't make more total/natural attacks than you would attacks normally be able to make (iteratives or TWF). Since they made sure to point out that at level 2-5 I'd only get to use my claw attacks if I took TWF penalties, this is how I think they're viewing the rules interactions.
I really only care about how it works for my animal companion because the only time I'd be using the claw attacks is if I were sundered/disarmed.
A creature can attack with all natural attacks that is possesses unless the limb or appendage is otherwise occupied. For example, if a creature has two claws and a bite, and opts to use a weapon in one hand, it would attack with a weapon, a claw, and a bite. If if uses a weapon, all natural attacks become secondary attacks.
If an Orc armed with two weapons also has a bite attack, for any reason, he can attack with both weapons and the bite; the bite attack will be secondary. He retains the bite attack here because the bite is not occupied with one of the weapons.
In the case of your boar, it always gets the gore/claw/claw when you rage. When you gain the extra attack, it's a corner case that is unclear. You will get table variance as to whether it is gore/claw/claw, or gore/gore/claw/claw. Ruling that it had to chose limited number of gore/claw/claw is clearly incorrect.
TL;DR you local GM is confusing the FAQ on multiple weapons with natural attack. He's wrong.
I definitely agree with you Howie, but the three DMs all agreed on the interpretation so it would be pretty difficult to change their minds (they said they had dev comments backing them up after I emailed them for reasoning but wouldn't email me the link to the comments because I had "already taken up so much of their time researching and writing out our explanations over several emails").
I haven't been able to find any dev comments on how gaining natural attacks work or specifically for creatures. It would probably need to include the BaB breakdown to show there's no TWF penalties (and that all gained natural attacks for different limbs stack).
Sorry for asking so much. I've been searching for several days for these things and I'm just bad at finding what I'm looking for lol.
EDIT: I should mention that these DMs aren't actually linked to "real" PFS. A few professors at my college use Pathfinder as a get together for students to meet each other and enjoy each others company. They use "strict PFS" rules and modules so everyone can look up the rules we play by. So it's still PFS, but just not official. I'm super thankful my college professors do this because it's a really nice Friday evening event when 30 or 40 people are all playing Pathfinder. Still, if it's strict PFS, I'd like it to be strict PFS.
Can anyone help me out with constructing this argument to my DMs? The main thing about it is actually proving the natural attacks stack on top of one another, not just "gaining them and being able to substitute them out for other attacks" as well as not "needing to take TWF penalties" as they have ruled.
I know two natural attacks on my mount isn't going to be much change when I'm a barbarian, but I'd like to go ahead and clear it up before other players that would like to focus on natural attacks hit this wall.
From the PRD here we have: PRD wrote: You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). So unless your DM is arguing that Gore takes the same limb/body part as a claw, you get additional attack rolls for extra natural attacks you can make.
I believe they're making the ruling that hooves are not capable of making claw attacks. I hadn't seen that in the PRD, Bob. Thanks!
We met last night to game and for clarification I asked if I could use both of my claw attacks for my barbarian. He's allowed to use both of his claw attacks. However, the boar wouldn't "because he only gets one attack" is what one DM said.
I'm still really confused. The DM said that the boar could use the claw attack(s) but only by substituting out one or both of the gore attack(s). So it's not even that the boar can't use the claw attacks, it's just that they believe there's a hard cap on the number of natural attacks a creature can make based on their ability.
I'm just not understanding.
Wouldn't the boar also get a bite ?
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Dimminsy wrote: We met last night to game and for clarification I asked if I could use both of my claw attacks for my barbarian. He's allowed to use both of his claw attacks. However, the boar wouldn't "because he only gets one attack" is what one DM said.
I'm still really confused. The DM said that the boar could use the claw attack(s) but only by substituting out one or both of the gore attack(s). So it's not even that the boar can't use the claw attacks, it's just that they believe there's a hard cap on the number of natural attacks a creature can make based on their ability.
I'm just not understanding.
You're not understanding because your GM is making a ruling that is unsupported by any rules.
I cannot go to the DM without any evidence to the contrary. All I have right now is the "body parts capable of making the attack" quote which can just responded to with "hooves aren't capable of making claw attacks.
It's not hooves, though, it's legs. And quadrupedal legs definitely can make claw attacks.
You have an available limb. It's called the leg. Your boar has 4 of them. You don't have an available body part until you grow it with lesser beast totem. It says "While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks." Your barbarian's hands can't be used as claws until you grow some claws. Your boar's hooves can't be used as weapons until he grows some claws.
Dimminsy wrote:
2. In the case of an orc doing this with a bite, the bite would be a secondary weapon and would not be combined with a longsword in one hand and a short sword for three attacks. The player would have to choose what the secondary attack is and use it. Thus if the PC in question had a longsword and chose to add the bite then at level 1-5 he’d get “Longsword/bite” with appropriate TWF penalties. At level 6-10 he’d get “Longsword/longsword-5/bite/bite-5” at appropriate additional TWF penalties. I disagree with the stack exchange answer and could post multiple Paizo discussion questions where my view is held. I ran my view by the Triad and we agreed on it, so that’s how we’re going to rule it.
According to natural attack rules:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
Technically, you can can do TWF Longsword(-2)/shortsword(-2)/bite(-5)(secondary) as all the attacks make use of different limbs.
Secondly, you never get iterative attacks with natural attacks. Therefore, the part where your DM mentions "At level 6-10 he’d get “Longsword/longsword-5/bite/bite-5” is wrong.
Dimminsy wrote:
a. If a fighter were converted to an octopus. He would 8 natural appendages. He could either make 8 attacks at full strength (each with a sword or natural slam attack) – OR – he could make a set of iterative attacks with a sword – OR – He could take two weapon fighting. He would *NOT* be allowed to take a full iterative attack with a sword plus 7 other natural attacks.
"
Same in this case, the Octopus can do iterative attacks with the sword, followed by Natural attacks all at -5 and half strength bonus.
Example:
Sword/Sword(iterative)/7 tentacles (-5 and half str)
Hell, the Octopus can even TWF with 2 limbs, followed by the rest of the tentacles as secondary attacks.
TWF Sword/Sword(iterative)/Sword(offhand)/6 tentacles (-5 and half str)
-Grijm- wrote: Secondly, you never get iterative attacks with natural attacks. Actually, as has been pointed out this isn't quite true. Animal Companions (and ONLY animal companions, barring some obscure monster that I'm not aware of) get an iterative with a natural weapon at the level they hit BaB +6 if they only have a single attack to begin with.
Jeff Merola wrote: -Grijm- wrote: Secondly, you never get iterative attacks with natural attacks. Actually, as has been pointed out this isn't quite true. Animal Companions (and ONLY animal companions, barring some obscure monster that I'm not aware of) get an iterative with a natural weapon at the level they hit BaB +6 if they only have a single attack to begin with. Thanks for the information, that I never knew.
Although the email reply by the DMs seem to imply they were referring to PCs.
Thank you Jeff, Bob Bob, and especially Grijm for laying out the explanation well. Also Jeff, the AC can gain an iterative attack if they have fewer than three natural attacks by level 9 (when they get 6 BaB), not just when they have only one attack.
Multiattack wrote: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty. So just to reiterate and organize everything that has been said/quoted:
1) Without Lesser Beast Totem, my barbarian wouldn't be able to make any natural attacks, so since my barbarian is able to gain natural attacks and use them (stacking 2 on top of 0 for a total of 2), the boar should be able to gain the natural attacks and use them (stacking 2 on top of 1 for a total of 3).
2) In the natural attack section it says "You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus" so upon earning 6 BaB my barbarian would not be able to "Longsword/longsword-5/bite/bite-5" since I would have already used my bite attack and the only way to use 2 bite attacks is to have 2 mouths ("so long as a different limb is used for each attack").
3) As per this FAQ a creature with four legs, regardless of the type of foot, are able to use up to 4 claw attacks granted to them by an ability or abilities.
4) As long as you do not use the limb that round for a different weapon attack/holding something you are able to use that limb for an applicable natural attack as per the different limb clause quoted at the end of 2. So Sword (BaB-TWF)/Sword BaB-TWF)/Bite (BaB-5) for secondary natural attack is what would happen at levels 1-5 when TWF with longswords while having a bite ability.
5) The natural attack section states "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.". For commentary on the octopus example sent by my DM, I will quote Grijm (editting a bit):
Grijm wrote: The Octopus can do iterative attacks with the sword, followed by Natural attacks all at -5 at half strength bonus.
Example:
Sword (BaB)/
Sword (BaB-iteratives)/
7 tentacles (BaB-5 at half str)
The Octopus can even TWF with 2 limbs, followed by the rest of the tentacles as secondary attacks.
Sword (BaB-TWF)/
Sword(BaB-TWF-iteratives)/
Sword(offhand BaB iteratives)/
6 tentacles (BaB-5 at half str)"
This is not really going to be used by the boar, but it was just for completeness.
6) The boar would have 2 natural attacks at level 9 without Lesser Beast Totem because of the Multiattack clause quoted near the beginning of this post.
Is this a fair summary of the thread? Was anything left out?
You are quite correct about the extra attack. I've never taken one of the handful of creatures with two attacks, so I'd forgotten that was a thing.
And I'm pretty sure you've got everything right there.
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