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Torbyne, making the bolt and placing it in the magazine for you is an entirely different thing. That is why the magazine/clip still has to be loaded.
On the issue of free actions getting 15 in a round is not something I would expect most GM's to allow and combining magic.items is something that still requires GM permission since it is not an already made item in the CRB. However if we are to assume the GM will say yes to whatever may be possible this idea can work. I just would not use it to prove anything since there are two things that are subject to table variation.
PS: Before any says "everything is up to the GM, I am not trying to debate semantics. I am just stating in advance certain things that I have seen before on the boards.
I'm not really sure what should happen with a Repeating Crossbow.
One thing does seem clear, because you can load other ammunition on a repeating crossbow the Endless Ammunition enchancement will have the bolt vanish and be replaced by the actual ammunition in the magazine. Mostly because there is no way to prevent the bolt from being loaded into the repeating crossbow if any are in the magazine.
Now, once the magazine is empty I have no idea what happens or what should happen.
Honestly, for the price of a single feat (Rapid Reload) and getting 1d8 instead of 1d10 you can reload a light crossbow as a free action.
If someone wants to spend a minimum of 18000 gold and make the rest of their weapon enhancements more expensive along the way to get 1d10 damage and the ability to reload as a free action...eh, seems like a fair enough trade off. Especially since it wont be viable until somewhere around level 8 to spend that much gold on it, and even then it's more than half your WBL.
During that time the guy with rapid reload and a light cross bow will also have had Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and an iterative attack and been attacking 4 times a round while you waited to get an extra 1 points of damage on average.
Yeah the Bolt Ace's ability for reloading is kind of bad.
Inexplicable Reload (Ex): At 11th level, loading a crossbow
becomes unthinking and automatic for a bolt ace. As long as
she has at least 1 grit point, she always starts each round of
combat (even a surprise round) with her crossbow loaded. Also
the amount of time needed to reload a crossbow decreases by
one step: a standard action becomes a move action, a move
action becomes a swift action, a swift action becomes a free
action, and a free action becomes not an action. This deed
replaces lightning reload.
It doesn't come on line till 11th level. Way too long to wait, by that time you've just admitted defeat and picked up Rapid Reload because you didn't want to suck forever.
Beyond that, once you get it I guess you could retrain all your feats that require you to select a type of crossbow to work with heavy crossbow instead, including Rapid Reload and then depending on how .... wait, nenvermind. Even if you have Rapid Reload it specifically sets it at to a move action for Heavy Crossbows, and Inexplicable Reload moves it down to a swift. Or if you applied them differently Inexplicable reload...doesn't cover what the full round action to reload a heavy crossbow should become...so I guess you're stuck with reloading as a swift action. I guess, happy two shots a round...
Wow. That sucks.
Edit: Wait. It's worse than that. You only get two shots the first round, because after that it will keep requiring your swift action which you only get 1 of per round.
I have to be missing something, or is it really this shitty? Was 1d8 vs 1d10 really so important that it required making Heavy Crossbows unusable?
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Why can't someone make an Efficient Quiver but in the form of a Repeating Crossbow's magazine? I see absolutely no reason why not.
Because the D&D family originated in miniature historical gaming and in an English speaking country (sort of, but I digress). Or, if you prefer, the world of, "The English Yeoman Longbowmen were gods, as demonstrated at Agincourt," along with a seasoning of, "Richard I was killed by a dastardly and cowardly crossbow. obviously this weapon should not be considered by anyone why has the time to develop real skill."
Disclaimer: this post is intended as humor. Please rebut in kind.
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Why can't someone make an Efficient Quiver but in the form of a Repeating Crossbow's magazine? I see absolutely no reason why not.Because the D&D family originated in miniature historical gaming and in an English speaking country (sort of, but I digress). Or, if you prefer, the world of, "The English Yeoman Longbowmen were gods, as demonstrated at Agincourt," along with a seasoning of, "Richard I was killed by a dastardly and cowardly crossbow. obviously this weapon should not be considered by anyone why has the time to develop real skill."
Disclaimer: this post is intended as humor. Please rebut in kind.
Have to agree with this. In the English-speaking world, longbows often occupy a similar space to the katana of the stereotypical anime fanboy. The difference being that "Katanas should be 2d10 and 17-20 x4" never actually made it into Pathfinder.
I think this just comes down to game design, game designers do not want a simple weapon to be as effective as martial ones.
That excuse can't be made for them, for a few different reasons:
- The simple/martial distinction is meaningless to the Fighter and Ranger, yet the Crossbowman Fighter and Crossbow Style Ranger both suck.
- Repeating Crossbows are Exotic weapons and they're still worse than the Composite Longbow.
- SKR stated directly that Crossbows aren't as good as Longbows in this game because Longbows shoot faster IRL.
Bolt Ace isn't terrible but it still suffers from the ACG having been rushed out: It retains Gunsmithing (why not get Rapid Reload instead?) and retains proficiency in all Firearms instead of with all Crossbows. The clause that allows Deadly Aim to be used while targeting Touch AC is missing. He still starts play with a broken firearm.
Shooter's Resolve would be okay if it wasn't restricted to a Standard Action.
Inexplicable Reload comes way too late, and is just an over-complicated way of belatedly giving the character a neutered version of Rapid Reload. Why is Swift Action part of the progression, other than to pad out its length and prevent people from using Heavy Crossbows? Then again, "not an action" reload might make TWF Hand Crossbows workable.
Vigilant Shooter seems to require one Grit Point per shot in order to work. I'd rather take Point Blank Master and use Signature Deed on Sharp Shoot instead.
The pattern keeps repeating itself: Deeds that do the same general thing as existing feats, only more restricted, more complicated, and less effective. It wouldn't surprise me if these mechanics started out simpler and more effective, but the writer (or writers) started to get nervous about it being "too powerful". So they added restrictions and clauses and complications until they broke it. It's the same mental image I got from the release version of Slashing Grace.
While i consider a lot here being a bit cheesy and would not allow it at my table, i think the bolt ace works fine.
I would consider crossbow mastery as early as possible for a heavy crossbow and just take a light crossbow before.
Probably i would add improved critical to that crossbow, because 17-20x3 1d8/10+DEX is quite a word.
Of course it´s a thing to wait for level 5 untill DEX kicks in, but i made that with my musket master too and it was just fine.
The only beef i have there is that all crossbows could become martial weapons for them, or at least hand crossbows.
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What's the point? Seriously, what's the point?I posted a build here for a crossbow user who does more then 600 DPR. This assume no crits and no misses. Since he uses a (17-20/x3) weapon I think crits will more then counteract misses but I am not sure.
Sub signature deed for improved critical and keen for seeking.
Add bracers of flacon's aim for better crit multiplier.With Haste, rage and favored enemy his full attack looks like
+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27 for 1d6+4d6(elemental)+50.AC of 55(64 with bodyguard)
Fort 32 Ref 38 Will 20
Can move and full attack every round due to roc companionRoc has 60 AC with combat expertise and defensive fighting.
Saves are mid 20s for fort and ref and a measly 13 for will.Will saves are an issue.
Can someone build something similar with a bow that does more damage?
Perception and stealth should both be pretty good.
The point is the game is broken at high levels.
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The point is you can't be a slave to RAW and have the game make any sense as a role playing game. This is what you end up with, just statistical craziness that exploit the fact that the rulebook would be an encyclopedia set if you tried to plug every hole, so they don't. The GM is the final arbiter of the rules and you do not have infinite free actions in a round. GMs give that intangible element that make the games fun and exciting, not a math class
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Every game system will break down once the game opens full throttle. The GMs are the ones that need to rein it in. This build will only work if the GM allows it to work, and technically, RAW by the free action statement above. The list of hand swaps and reloads most assuredly is outside the realm of "reasonable" for a six second period. It is a well thought out build and is technically sound by the book, with a few fudges by a GM
True you don't want to end up with a reloading time of a swift action, but if you can get your reload time down to a free action (via rapid reload/crossbow mastery), reducing the reload time to "not an action" is pretty handy (as I pointed out in the previous thread). I'm assuming you choose to apply them in the order that's most beneficial, otherwise you could never reduce the reload time to the lowest step. It allows you to TWF with crossbows or to don a shield while wielding a crossbow without any complex tricks. In the case of light crossbows, it saves you the feat for crossbow mastery to avoid provoking while reloading.
Bolt Ace looks great. Not sure crossbow users can really complain. Dex to damage at level 5, signature deed (sharp shoot) at 11. Slower start that a bow user, but a worthwhile payoff. Less intense than a gunslinger, but less crippling hurdles at low levels (ammunition cost, misfires).
I'd hardly say that heavy crossbows are unusable with crossbow mastery around, but it's too feat intensive for the payoff for sure.
I missed your post in the other thread I guess. Can you remind me what the benefit of having the reload time be a non-action versus free action? I would think you still need a free hand to reload. I just can't imagine how not-an-action is more beneficial than free action.
Honestly, Bolt Ace 5 to get dex to damage then weapon master fighter.
As a 9th level character I converted an existing ranger archer I had to this build and he was doing 1d8+20 using a light crossbow.
Don't have the character sheet in front of me to do the total calculation, but I think Bolt Ace is best kept at a 5 level intro for crossbow and then switching out to something else. Nothing else is that great of interest that can't be replaced with feats at earlier levels (which is why levels of fighter come in handy). It's also not really worth the extra feats to use heavy crossbows over light crossbow considering that the damage difference is 1d8 vs 1d10.
Signature Deed is well worth waiting till 11 for, since you'll then be making all your shots against Touch AC.
Signature Deed is well worth waiting till 11 for, since you'll then be making all your shots against Touch AC.
I think if depends. If you know the game is going to go for a few levels after 11 then it might be worth it. But, if you playing in PFS* or something where you cap at level 12 or less then it really doesn't offer anything else of value. 1 level worth of time of free touch attack isn't worth it to me.
*assuming the Bolt Ace is PFS legal
I will admit though I forgot about the Signature Deed feat which is only available to 11th level gunslinger. I was only looking at class features, and none are really attractive except dex to damage, in my opinion. At least not without Signature Deed for the touch attack bit.
If you post up a level 11 build with the attack sequence, I'll plug the numbers into the spreadsheet I made.
I'll try to remember to do it when I get home and have access to herolab.
I also love herolab. It can be expensive to get all the data packages, but I don't regret spending the money.
I will try to get those characters made, I will basically make a clone of your earlier build's stats and such with a Bolt Ace 5/Weapon Master 6 and Bolt Ace 11 for comparison.
I think the critical route is pretty neat for crossbows.
Especially after level 5 of Bolt Ace when you get DEX to damage.
On level 8 you can have improved critical, which definately makes it worth! That also fits the picture of crossbows way better than a million shots.
The extra attack arrow from Manyshot isn't shown, and remember he is targetting touch AC on all attacks.
Also, I'm looking at your damage calculation for your original Weapon Master Post and I think there might be an error. It doesn't look like you included penalties for Deadly Aim being in effect and I am otherwise confused on how you're getting your damage.
The builds are basically identical feat wise except for Weapon, Focus, Greater Weapon Focus. There is also Weapon Training that you get. That gives a (1(WF)+1(GWF)+3(WT)+2(gloves))=7 to attack...which is exactly the difference. And 5 to damage from WT and gloves and 2 more for weapon spec. Deadly Aim adds 6. So thats 13 damage. What am I missing?
Edit: Missed 3 more from the weapon, and then...1 more point? Point blank shot? If so that not included in the damage of either of my builds.
Anyways, there is the first build in the link.
Also, average touch AC is 12 at CR 11, which appears to be where you got AC 24 from.
Also, an important thing to note the x4 critical multiplier is correct. The Bracer's of Falcon's Aim increases the critical multiplier to 3, and Bolt Ace's Crossbow Training increases it as well. They stack, because the spell doesn't specify they don't. However, you still take Improved Critical to end up with 17-20x4 critical threat range.
Actually, based on that I don't think a multiclass bolt ace/weapon master can compete due to the touch AC with with Signature Deed Sharp Shoot. The mutlticlass will have more static damage and higher attack bonus due to weapon training and gloves of dueling, but based on the number required to hit I think average damage would drop significantly. The question would be does the extra damage granted by Bolt Ace 5 out do the drop in to hit compared to the fighter build.
I also love herolab. It can be expensive to get all the data packages, but I don't regret spending the money.
I will try to get those characters made, I will basically make a clone of your earlier build's stats and such with a Bolt Ace 5/Weapon Master 6 and Bolt Ace 11 for comparison.
Again sorry for the derail...
So how much would it be for HeroLab and all the pathfinder options?
All the PF options? ~$360 at this point. (Not including 3rd party books) Just the program and core books (not including bestiaries) ~$120
So, because he has 17-20x4 crit range I think he comes out ahead of the Weapon Master. But do note, his damage is only 5 higher while his to hit is 3 lower.
I did have to drop his armor enhancement and drop AC items to afford the gloves of dueling, and drop down the cloak to a +2 but it's still acceptable I think.
Manyshot doesn't work with crossbows.
Just thought the same.
Something that hit me while playing with bolt ace a bit is the added combination of the bull´s eye shot feat and focused shot, if one has some INT bonus.Also i would get the seeking property on that crossbow asap, makes improved precise shot unnecessary i believe.
Manyshot doesn't work with crossbows.
Good call, forgot it specified bows. Either way, no big deal. Drop Many Shot, and...I guess there is a relevant feat that could be picked up.
Good catch. I made those in a hurry.
As a note, Manyshot's extra arrow is not normally displayed in Herolab anyway so that is why I didn't think about it.
Edit: Replace Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot on the straight Bolt Ace build.
Crossbow Mastery isn't really that worthwhile, it enables you to use a Heavy Crossbow, but it's only 1 extra point of damage on average.
For the Bolt Ace / Weapon Master multiclass, lets replace it with Iron Will and shore up that will save. Alternatively you could use Reckless Aim if you're not worried about tanking your AC, but that would complicate calculations.
Point blank master is also not needed, since you get vigilant loading quite early.
And if so i would get crossbow mastery.
Point blank master is also not needed, since you get vigilant loading quite early.
And if so i would get crossbow mastery.
Point Blank Master is needed, unless you pickup 11 levels in Bolt Ace.
Read Bolt Ace's Vigilant Shooter ability. Vigilant Shooter makes it so you don't provoke an AoO when firing a crossbow. Vigilant Loader only makes it so it doesn't provoke an AoO when loading the crossbow, which I didn't realize was a separate AoO before but I guess since it's normally a move or higher action type it normally provoked.
You can really tell I don't mess with crossbow much, since I failed to realize just how many things are different from regular bows and how bad crossbow suck without a ton of feats.