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Hi
I run many games at conventions and other one time events and I was wondering if anyone else had encountered a problem with trying to introducing new players to the rule system. This is not just playing 1st level characters in a simple encounters.
I've found may good/great roleplayers will not play pathfinder games because of the complexity of the rules. I know a can use other systems and just use background materials. I was hoping not to have to do this.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Use Beginner Box
Use Beginner Box or Core Rulebook Only
Limiting the number of sources helps to cut down confusion a lot in my opinion.
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They disliked it greatly...
Some of the reasons given:
1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.
2. They really liked some parts to game system, but game mechanics and rules prevent logical and rational actions from being useful.
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1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.
The GM needs to be aware that not every situation requires a dice roll. If the story would be enhanced by a check to see if the PCs succeed, then a check should be made. If there is nothing to be gained by rolling the die to see if they succeed, just let them succeed.
I recommend FATE Accelerated for you group then. But you do realize rolling poorly is part of the game right? I mean not everything characters do in novels/movies/play/etc. succeeds, which the whole point of rolling.
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They disliked it greatly...
Some of the reasons given:
1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.2. They really liked some parts to game system, but game mechanics and rules prevent logical and rational actions from being useful.
Frankly - if you don't like crunchy mechanics to some degree - Pathfinder probably isn't the system for you. There are bunches of more simplistic systems.
Myself - I find that the more simplistic systems tend to make it more luck based as the very few rolls mean that law of large numbers doesn't apply.
Or, if not just a few rolls being the deciding factor, it becomes extrememly subjective based upon what the GM thinks should happen based upon your plan/description of said plan.
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1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.The GM needs to be aware that not every situation requires a dice roll. If the story would be enhanced by a check to see if the PCs succeed, then a check should be made. If there is nothing to be gained by rolling the die to see if they succeed, just let them succeed.
I agree completely. In general I only kill players for bad or really bad ideas like lets bug the evil wizards guide because we can... lets poke the sleeping dragon..
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They disliked it greatly...
Some of the reasons given:
1. Wanted to play a Roleplaying game not rollplaying game, were dice were way,way more important that what the players do. Have a great plan but rolling very poorly kills that.2. They really liked some parts to game system, but game mechanics and rules prevent logical and rational actions from being useful.
Frankly - if you don't like crunchy mechanics to some degree - Pathfinder probably isn't the system for you. There are bunches of more simplistic systems.
Myself - I find that the more simplistic systems tend to make it more luck based as the very few rolls mean that law of large numbers doesn't apply.
Or, if not just a few rolls being the deciding factor, it becomes extrememly subjective based upon what the GM thinks should happen based upon your plan/description of said plan. [/QUOTE
Yes your right other systems can do this. I was just wondering if anyone had been playing a lighter pathfinder system. Many but not all found the box set too basic...
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On another note about pathfinder system, Has anyone found a solution to the increasing time that higher level combats rounds take? I noticed higher the level characters are the the player take more and more time to complete there rounds. This is more common with spell casters...
Things I've already tried include :
1. Timer and/or time limits
2. Spell cards
3. Spell templates
4. Printing out spell books...
I'd be open to suggestions
Thanks
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On another note about pathfinder system, Has anyone found a solution to the increasing time that higher level combats rounds take? I noticed higher the level characters are the the player take more and more time to complete there rounds. This is more common with spell casters...
Things I've already tried include :
1. Timer and/or time limits
2. Spell cards
3. Spell templates
4. Printing out spell books...I'd be open to suggestions
Thanks
Play an E6 or E8 game. d20 breaks at level 13+, pathfinder is no different.
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Found something funny on the internet today:
Large group of kids: Hey, we wanna play Pathfinder!
Me: Why?
Kids: Can you run it for us?
Me: No. I have to run a different game today. Maybe you guys should run an easier game.
Kid: But I’ve already made my character.
** He shows me his ability scores, race, class, and skill list. **
Me: Great. Now all you need is to figure out your ability modifiers, alignment, racial modifiers to ability scores, speed, armored or encumbered speed, vision, racial traits, class features, spell list, spells prepared or granted, deity, feats, skill ranks per level based on class, bonus skill ranks from race or Intelligence modifier, class skills vs. non-class skills, skill rank allocations, Fortitude save, Reflex save, Will save, hit points, base attack bonus, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, shield proficiencies, weapons carried, weapon ranges, weapon prices, weapon handedness, weapon damage dice, weapon damage types, weapon critical threats, ammunition, armor worn, shield carried, armor price, shield price, armor weight, shield weight, Armor Class bonus, starting gold by class, equipment, initiative modifier—
Kid: That sounds really complicated. Isn’t there an easier version?
Me: That is the easier version. That’s just the material from the Beginner Box. If you were playing the full version, you’d also need your size, carrying capacity, languages, flat-footed Armor Class, touch Armor Class, Combat Maneuver bonus, Combat Maneuver defense—
Kid: Maybe we should play something else...
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If you want to play Pathfinder (and use the Pathfinder campaign paths) with players who find the rules confusing, here are a few suggestions: (I've dealt with a similar situation myself introducing my wife and daughter to roleplaying)
1) Restrict the rules. Core rules works fine, or Core + APG at most. Less rules = less complexity. Also, spontaneous casters only. Oracles and Sorcerers are easier to play than Clerics and Wizards.
2) Make the characters yourself. Get an idea what each player wants to play and then make a character for them. Make sure to crunch all the numbers so they have all the calculations they need close at hand. If you want to take this to the next level, do the levelups as well (give the player maybe 3 good choices then do the calculations for them)
3) Give them a handicap. New players often have difficulty with the tactics of the game, and the game is VERY tactical. Give them levels above what is recommended for the module to make it a bit easier. Once they get the hang of it, you'll know when the encounters start to become too easy, then even it back out.
4) Multiple Choice. My wife taught me the importance of this technique when I was teaching her. Delete "What do you do?" from your vocabulary and instead give 3 options. As in, "You could open the door, listen at the door, or look for another entrance, which do you want to try?" This is much easier for very new players who find the endless options in roleplaying overwhelming.
5) Find a ringer. If you can get even one experienced player at the table, they can be the mentor for everyone. It makes the learning period much easier.
Hope that helps.
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On another note about pathfinder system, Has anyone found a solution to the increasing time that higher level combats rounds take? I noticed higher the level characters are the the player take more and more time to complete there rounds. This is more common with spell casters.
I find that player investment is the biggest way to reduce high level combat time. And I mean investment in the actual rules you are using.
If you have every player know the rules they are using, in that they actually read and understand everything their characters can or may be required to do, things move quickly.
If you have players that don't want to take the time to study their part of the game, you need to either stay in the low levels or ignore large chunks of the rules that will cause confusion and take time to resolve.
Enforcing time limits on turns only treats the symptom, not the disease. You need to either cultivate players that don't need much time to take their turn, or have less stuff to resolve on each turn.
The Beginner Box, in my opinion, should be expanded to be the official Pathfinder-Lite. Its just such a good product.
However it's still a roleplaying game and some people still don't 'get'. I was going to show my sister (21 years old) how to play using the Beginner Box. I didn't get past explaining ability modifiers because she saw the character sheet and said "This looks like homework.". My mom lasted longer and she still hasn't grasped that elves are not halflings.
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On another note about pathfinder system, Has anyone found a solution to the increasing time that higher level combats rounds take? I noticed higher the level characters are the the player take more and more time to complete there rounds. This is more common with spell casters...
Things I've already tried include :
1. Timer and/or time limits
2. Spell cards
3. Spell templates
4. Printing out spell books...
GMing tactics can vary the amount of time greatly. Comparing two groups at the same level, one completed a number of encounter equal to the number of rounds the other group did in the same time.
1. As a GM be fast. That includes running monsters fast.
2. Never look up a rule. As a GM just make the call, the player should have looked up the rule before his/her turn.
3. Tell everyone to prepare their turns ahead of time, let the first person have some thinking time.
4. If a player doesn't know what they are doing daze them and move to the next person.
5. If they need to look up a summon monster table, either make the spell fail or daze the summon.
6. If they don't know how their spell works, make it fail.
7. Trust your players. As a GM I don't have time to double check if they are interpreting their spell correctly.
8. If you have special rules for something let the players know. For example I allow people with climb and acrobatics to wall jump.
Things that might be crossing the line:
1. Aggro in my games is generally whoever is taking the longest on their turn, especially people who start nova summoning and can't run the monsters fast(pre-roll attacks and damage rolls before turn, saves time).
2. I don't allow anything non-PRD at the table without being ran by me first. I that group of spells is full of tricky RAW.
3. If a player wants to talk about rules respond: "In this universe it works this way."
4. Set up encounters so that they are quick.