Could I have a Magic Ring with True Strike constant effect?
I'm totally prepared for a no, but I'm curious as to the reasoning behind a yes/no answer.
Thanks :-D.
Absolutely.
You would pay 8000gp, and have a constant effect True strike.
It wouldn't modify True strike, though, and the ring would lose all its power when you will make your first attack roll...
Which is why he should get a ring of True Strike with infinite uses.
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An infinite use ring of True Strike wouldn't be particularly overpowered if it's a standard action to use every time.
I would not allow it as a constant effect because the spell only last for 1 round, and only affects 1 attack.
Assuming I was a more generous DM...
The CRB states that continuous items based on spells measured in rounds have the cost multiplied by 4. I would make a 1 -round spell cost x10.
spell level (1) x caster level (7 : minimum to make a ring)x 2,000 x10=
140,000 gp. For a +20 to hit insight bonus, and negate miss chances due to concealment.
Still seems too cheap. ;0
Could I have a Magic Ring with True Strike constant effect?
I'm totally prepared for a no, but I'm curious as to the reasoning behind a yes/no answer.Thanks :-D.
I would refer you to the page where magic item creation is discussed. Near the table of formula costs, there are a pair of examples of unreasonable items. One of these is the 'constant True Strike' item, where it suggests that it is indeed possible, but at an exorbitant price.
This is because you need to price it as if it were a +20 enhancement bonus, plus extra since it would stack with any actual enhancement bonus, not as a 1st level spell.On the other hand, I'd be quite happy with an item that casts True Strike, requiring a standard action to activate. That would then use the formula. Or simply make a wand.
So what would the Math be behind what it would cost? I'm looking at the graph, and I get 56,000 for you needing to be spell caster lvl 7 for rings, multiplied by spell level, 1, by 2000, and then by 4 since the spell lasts in Rounds/a round.
1 X 7 X 2000 X 4 = 56,000... but since it's adding +20... what part of the chart would I look up for that?
Thanks again very much, I love discussions like this, gets my mind going.
My take on the original question was that he was after a ring that allowed all attacks to gain the +20. Every round, every attack. Therefore, it would function like a weapon bonus that stacks with any bonuses from the actual weapon, and be more like the enhancement style of bonus rather than a spell effect.
Without checking the books, I think a +5 bonus costs 50000gp and +10 costs 200000gp. Since you can't normally apply all 10 to the enhancement you're already looking at some sort of extra cost there. So, +20 might be anywhere between 800000 and 1.6 million gp. But that would still need to be priced for being stackable, and work with any weapon so I'd offer it at about 3 million, and need a CL of 60 to craft.
There's the reason why it doesn't exist.
Edit : I just remembered that it doesn't add to damage, so I'd reduce the price somewhat to 2 million.
Or you could price it from the cost of hiring a powerful wizard to make it...1 million days of crafting would cost rather more than anyone could afford.
So what would the Math be behind what it would cost? I'm looking at the graph, and I get 56,000 for you needing to be spell caster lvl 7 for rings, multiplied by spell level, 1, by 2000, and then by 4 since the spell lasts in Rounds/a round.
Rings don't have a default minimum caster level. While you do need a caster level of 7 to take the Forge Ring feat, you can make a ring with a caster level of 1. The only magical item that has a default minimum caster level are staffs, which have a minimum caster level of 8th because it specifically says they do.
For more proof, you can find several rings in the core rulebook with caster levels below 7th.
A "constant true strike" is a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. Being generous (notice the difference between armor enhancements and weapon enhancements) and applying the same value as AC bonus (other) on the Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values table (based on an ioun stone (dusty rose prism) as an item providing a constant insight bonus):
Bonus squared x 2,500 gp = (20 x 20 x 2,500) = 1,000,000 gp
If going by the "bonuses on attacks are twice as expensive as bonuses to AC" rule of thumb, the item would be 2,000,000 gp.
snip
If going by the "bonuses on attacks are twice as expensive as bonuses to AC" rule of thumb, the item would be 2,000,000 gp.
Which, by an amazing coincidence, is the same value I came up with.
The OP still couldn't have one, though. Can you imagine the response of a high level wizard being asked to spend 1 million days crafting anything? At least, crafting anything for someone else. And he wouldn't have a use for such a limited item himself.
If going by the "bonuses on attacks are twice as expensive as bonuses to AC" rule of thumb, the item would be 2,000,000 gp.Can you imagine the response of a high level wizard being asked to spend 1 million days crafting anything?
I make it 2000 days of work.
Yes, a friend wanted to make his party a few rings of constant effect true strike.... but figured they'd be ridiculously expensive and time consuming to do so... I was QUITE curious at how long and how expensive such rings would cost. Yes to Constant Effect, and Yes to Every Attack lol.
(My friend said he can do 8,000 gold per day with his crafting feats... is that possible? O_O.... I realize this'll cause a whole different can of worms to be opened but I figure I may as well do it!)
(My friend said he can do 8,000 gold per day with his crafting feats... is that possible? O_O.... I realize this'll cause a whole different can of worms to be opened but I figure I may as well do it!)
I'd like to see how he can do 8000gp of crafting per day.
Ravingdork came up with ways of making the costs a lot less, but not ways of doing a higher total per day.
If you put use restrictions like alignment, class, or race the cost can be cut down.
(My friend said he can do 8,000 gold per day with his crafting feats... is that possible? O_O.... I realize this'll cause a whole different can of worms to be opened but I figure I may as well do it!)I'd like to see how he can do 8000gp of crafting per day.
Ravingdork came up with ways of making the costs a lot less, but not ways of doing a higher total per day.
I think through the use of his familiar with the Valet Template?... I'm not sure what that entails to though.
Cooperative Crafting is in the Valet Template for a familiar, it doubles how much gold you can work on an item by double... still trying to figure out the rest of the math...
Could I have a Magic Ring with True Strike constant effect?
In theory? Yes. Course I would love to live in theory. Everything works in theory.
In practice? No smart GM would want such an item in their game really.
Adding a constant +20 to every attack and permanently ignoring concealment miss chances is stupid broken to put into a game.
And when a higher level monster kills you and takes it then you have unleashed an even bigger horror on the world since when any 'real' power hears of this ring they are going to want it BAD.
And the 2,000,000 GP cost others are coming up with do not even include the 'ignoring concealment miss chances' part of the spell.
I would simply say it is beyond the power of magic before they ask for a ring that casts cure light wounds every round too.
If calculated as a "constant effect" it would be the +20 bonus squared x 2000, which is probably prohibitively expensive.
On the other hand, being able to cast it at will would probably be fine, much like Ring of Invisibility which doesn't make you invis 24/7 but rather for 3 minute bursts.
So he's got Valet Familiar, he rushes, adding 5 to the DC, and has cooperative crafting, plus he has a mythic feat called Mythic Craft that doubles the amount he can do in a day...
The Math:
1000
2000 (rushed)
4000 (rushed with familiar helping)
8000 (rushed with familiar helping with mythic crafting)
Right?
Doubling things don't stack multiplicatively, they stack additively. Two doubles make a triple, for example. Doubling thrice would give you 4,000 a day.
Doubling things don't stack multiplicatively, they stack additively. Two doubles make a triple, for example. Doubling thrice would give you 4,000 a day.
Can you explain the math on that, like use 1,000 gold and then go through the math with that for 8 hours of crafting, rushed, with a familiar with cooperative crafting who shares the mythic crafting feat as well.
Where is it to say that it doesn't double instead of adding to the multiplier? In my mind, both ways make sense, but going 1,000>2,000>4,000>8,000 is doubling your effectiveness.
Where is it to say that it doesn't double instead of adding to the multiplier? In my mind, both ways make sense, but going 1,000>2,000>4,000>8,000 is doubling your effectiveness.
How to handle multiplicatives is stated in the core rules. Kayerloth is 100% correct in his math and statements.
Multiplying
When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
That specifies applying multipliers to a 'roll'. Does that apply here by RAW? The amount you can craft in a day isn't rolled.
When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.That specifies applying multipliers to a 'roll'. Does that apply here by RAW? The amount you can craft in a day isn't rolled.
That's an interesting question. Thankfully, this is General Discussion, not Rules Questions. Therefore, we can forgo chilly logic for common sense. So yes, as the only rule that handles multipliers, it does apply universally.
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Cooperative Crafting is in the Valet Template for a familiar, it doubles how much gold you can work on an item by double... still trying to figure out the rest of the math...
Something about a trait that increase it and being a dwarf with the right deity and/or archetype I think. All those effects increase the base value of magic items that you can make in a day, so they would be increased by working a double speed and the cooperative crafting.
With a personal demiplane with the flowing time trait you can get another doubling.
Flowing Time: On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real. When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane's flow of time first, followed by the flow in the other plane.
About
Heh so only 6 years give or take.Never mind that for a caster level in this stratosphere said wizard probably has a demiplane or some other manner to 'I'll step in back for a sec, brb' and all but create the Item in an apparent few minutes aka make the crafting time as close to meaningless (Immortal/Ageless on a Timeless plane etc.) as it can get. He might very well be on a first name basis with the 'Greater God of Magic' who could literally just think the Item into existence. Hi welcome to Artifact Creation 101.
AFAIK no demiplane allow you to compress 6 years in a few minutes and, beside that, we are still speaking of 6 years of work from the point of view of the wizard. I am appalled bit the ease with which people hand wave working for 6 years without any pause. Immortal or not, working for 6 straight years confined in a small area isn't sane.
1,000gp etc
I was aware of the valet familiar and cooperative crafting, but not the mythic feat. Thanks.
One extra thing to bear in mind (if you don't already know) is that initial 1000gp refers to the items base price, not it's halved crafting cost.
Flowing Time: On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed.AFAIK no demiplane allow you to compress 6 years in a few minutes
No demiplane that a wizard can create (unless your GM is willing to take a very permissive attitude to what a 'timeless' demiplane is), but it is stated that such planes exist already. So you'd have to find one (GM permitting), use planar travel to get there, build a home there, and hope nothing bad happens on that plane during those six years of crafting. You'd probably want to bring the rest of the party with you for security (and company) rather than just popping off into a room and coming back 36 seconds later with the completed item.
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No demiplane that a wizard can create (unless your GM is willing to take a very permissive attitude to what a 'timeless' demiplane is), but it is stated that such planes exist already. So you'd have to find one (GM permitting), use planar travel to get there, build a home there, and hope nothing bad happens on that plane during those six years of crafting. You'd probably want to bring the rest of the party with you for security (and company) rather than just popping off into a room and coming back 36 seconds later with the completed item.Flowing Time: On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed.AFAIK no demiplane allow you to compress 6 years in a few minutes
Living 6 years with a bored barbarian with nothing to do.
Should I really need that ring to do that.
I mean... I understand the crit rule, if you raise a crit severity from X2 to X3... it's doubling the crit severity... instead of going X2 to X4 right? I don't think my friend knew about the certain dwarf deity speeding up how much you can do in a day... I'll have to bring that up.
I don't see it anymore, but the wayback machine comes to the rescue:
Making Magic Items (Part Seven)
By Skip Williams
Okay, you've finally written out a description for your item. Now it's time to figure out what the item costs. This week, we'll consider that problem and conclude this particular subject!
Base Price and Market Price
The rules offer you some help in this endeavor, but ultimately your own good judgment will prove the best guide.
Assigning a market price to a magic item is covered in detail in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. See Table 7-33. Items that provide simple bonuses to attacks, Armor Class, saving throws, or checks are fairly easy to evaluate.
If your item doesn't provide any bonuses and has no clear spell analogy, try comparing it against similar items. If that's not helpful, consider the question of when you think it would be appropriate for a PC to have one of your items. Should he have it at 7th level? According to Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level in the Dungeon Master's Guide, a 7th-level PC is assumed to have 19,000 gp of gear. A reasonable cost for a single item that such a character might own would be somewhere between 10% and 40% of the character's total wealth. In this case, that's 1,900 gp to 7,600 gp.
Weapons, Armor, and Shields: Many weapon or armor qualities are not assigned a market price in cash, but they are instead priced as "+1 bonus", "+2 bonus," and so on. This was discussed in Part Four.
You can use this system when the property directly affects the offense (hit chance or damage dealt) of a weapon, or the defense (likelihood of a hit or damage received) of an armor. Otherwise, your new weapon property should be priced as a no-slot item. For example, armor of Strength +4 shouldn't be priced as a +2 or +3 armor bonus; instead it should be priced as a +4 ability enhancement (+16,000 gp), doubled to +32,000 gp because it doesn't use up any item slots (see Table 7-33).
Some Things to Avoid
Keep in mind that the rules and advice in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide are intended to help a reasonable person estimate what an item is worth in play. It's always a mistake to try to create the most powerful item possible for the lowest possible price or vice versa.
When the Formulas Fail: Table 7-33 provides the basic tool for determining item prices and costs, but many items don't fit the table. Many spells in the game work fine as spells, but spells come with built-in limits on their power, and chief among those is the simple fact that a spell is used up when cast and a character has only so many spells available each day. Many spells become world beaters when they're placed in items that work continuously or in items that can be reused over and over again. For example, a ring of invisibility is a command-activated item that duplicates a 2nd-level spell, and its caster level is 3rd (the minimum to cast the spell). According to Table 7-33, such an item has a cost of 2 x 3 x 1,800 gp (spell level x caster x 1,800 gp). So, a ring of invisibility costs 10,800 gp, right? Wrong, it costs nearly twice that much (20,000 gp) because an endless supply of invisibility spells are worth something extra.
Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring of true strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range.
Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use-activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain.
So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.
Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs.
/cevah
My intent wasn't so much to hand wave it away as to point out how terribly far beyond the normal gaming experience (perhaps even most 'epic' gaming) so as to be pretty much an entirely different game altogether. The wizard in question needs in excess of 60 levels to be able to craft the Item. We have very little basis with which to even compare such a wizard to or even talk about the abilities of such a caster. Even the Epic rules barely cover such characters beyond "continue this table out as needed ... "
No he doesn't. You can bypass the requirements to make an item in Pathfinder by upping the crafting DC. That was even specifically mentioned in the FAQ.
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Second, the 3x caster level thing is for armor and weapons. It doesn't hold true for all items. Bracers of Armor, for instance, only requires a caster level equal to twice the bonus. So it isn't set in stone. It may be possible to require a caster level equal to the bonus, or even less. Not that it matters, because as I quoted above, you can simply ignore the caster level requirement (no matter how high it is) by simply adding +5 to the crafting DC.
So if you flat out say "I don't have the caster levels, so I'll just add 5 to the DC, would you still include the caster level in the DC, or only add 5? Since it's 5 for not being CL 60, plus 5 for rushing, and the original 5.... does that mean the DC is 15?... If this was the case, I'd just have my familiar at home doing 3,000 (Or 6,000... I don't know which doubling rule to use and whatnot yet) for a year to make my ring for me... and anytime that I'm at 'home' I'd help the crafting to speed it up.
So if you flat out say "I don't have the caster levels, so I'll just add 5 to the DC, would you still include the caster level in the DC, or only add 5? Since it's 5 for not being CL 60, plus 5 for rushing, and the original 5.... does that mean the DC is 15?... If this was the case, I'd just have my familiar at home doing 3,000 (Or 6,000... I don't know which doubling rule to use and whatnot yet) for a year to make my ring for me... and anytime that I'm at 'home' I'd help the crafting to speed it up.
The DC is 5+CL whether or not you have the CL needed. So it'd be 5 base +60 CL+5 not having CL+5 rushing for DC 75.
So if you flat out say "I don't have the caster levels, so I'll just add 5 to the DC, would you still include the caster level in the DC, or only add 5? Since it's 5 for not being CL 60, plus 5 for rushing, and the original 5.... does that mean the DC is 15?... If this was the case, I'd just have my familiar at home doing 3,000 (Or 6,000... I don't know which doubling rule to use and whatnot yet) for a year to make my ring for me... and anytime that I'm at 'home' I'd help the crafting to speed it up.The DC is 5+CL whether or not you have the CL needed. So it'd be 5 base +60 CL+5 not having CL+5 rushing for DC 75.
I figured as much... :D This thread has been fun ^_^
Just for the sake of arguement, would GM's allow a Ring of True Strike that let you cast the spell an infinite number of times a day?
Given you'd have to spend an action to gain the buff, and it only applied to the first attack each time, would it be a viable item and how would you price it?
That type of an object would be a BIT more balanced.... since if you did Flurry of Blows on a Monk for example... instead of ALL the hits getting +20 (Broken IMO), only the first hit would get the effect.