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Hi Paizo please make sure this Feat is banned in PFS
I can see this being abused terribly.
Your talent for slaughter lets you dispatch helpless
opponents before they can recover.
Prerequisites: Dastardly Finish, sneak attack +5d6,
studied target† class feature.
Benefit: As a swift action that does not provoke attacks
of opportunity, you can attempt a coup de grace against
a cowering, helpless, or stunned opponent that you have
designated as your studied target.
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That class combination doesn't actually have the prerequisites. +5d6 Sneak Attack isn't easy to get. Still, you can manage it with 7 levels of Rogue/Ninja (or Vivisectionist or something), 3 levels of Slayer, and 1 level of Monk. That'd do it.
But that's 11th level at the lowest, only doable something like 3 times a day (more as you rise in level), and allows a Save to avoid it. It's a less than spectacular multiclass, too.
Honestly, seems balanced enough to me.
Yes, it's not a big deal. A monk rarely lands his Stunning Fist unless he invests heavily in Wisdom which would wreck this build. Unless you are depending on your allied casters for the Stun it's almost never going to work.
Tough to get before level 11 anyway.
If a Vivisectionist dips Slayer it might be fun but it is certainly not an I WIN button for every fight.
Less balanced and more just bad. The DC on Stunning Fist is probably going to be in the area around 20, and that's including Mantis Style. Most CR 11 creatures have the Fortitude to have better than a 50/50 shot of making that save. Plus you have to make the attack roll first (not the easiest thing to do because all those enhancements you have applied to your main weapon aren't going to affect an unarmed strike) and can only do it a few times per day.
Also you're devoting your entire freaking build to something you can't do until level 11. I can see it being a nice high level trick for a pair consisting of a Thug Rogue and a Dirge of Doom-based Bard, though.
here is an example.
Rogue/Ninja 7, Slayer 2, Monk 2.
= move action "studied target", Standard action stunning fist, Swift action Coup de grace.
Woohoo you finally, at 11th level (1 level before PFS maxes out, mind you) can maybe make somebody fail your Stunning Fist (not an easy feat), IF you hit them in the first place (not at all a guarantee given you're multiclassing 3/4 BaB characters) and then, maybe, possibly CdG them.
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Considering PC saves are usually EVEN BETTER than monster saves, and monsters with the requisite minimum of NINE LEVELS in a PC class are basically nonexistent, and optimized NPCs utilizing Feats like this are even rarer, and even if it did exist it would run into the exact same problems the PC version has, if not worse, and EVEN THEN save or die effects from NPCs aren't exactly uncommon in the first place...still not seeing the issue here.
The Assassinate ability is probably more likely to come up, and have the same effect as this very specific build requiring no less than three Feats to even be potentially usable.
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You could be put to sleep by a witch and then coup de graced by minions more easily.
With this ability you have to be hit, and then fail a save before the coup de grace is even possible. I don't see this recurring enough to make it a problem.
I believe there is an Inquisitor spell (Castigate?) that can set up the Coup de Grace
Sanctified Slayer could access the feat at like... 17th level. Wooh.
This really isn't a big deal. The monk has to land the stunning fist. The target must fail their save against stunning fist. The monk can than coup-de-grace for decent damage and the target makes a save or dies. A wizard can use phantasmal killer at 7th level to similar effect, though without as much consolation damage.
Regarding other uses: Various means of inflicting the panicked condition (usually by stacking two frightening effects) when the enemy is in a corner would work.
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my real Fear here is when Certain mod writers decide to attach some non associated rogue and slayer levels to some random monster then get this feat to insta slay PC's
it is going to happen.
There are many many other ways mod writers can kill you. Think of all OP or broken builds and combos that existed pre-ACG. Campaign Devs kept those out of scenarios.
At L8 and beyond, death is just a speed bump anyways.
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my real Fear here is when Certain mod writers decide to attach some non associated rogue and slayer levels to some random monster then get this feat to insta slay PC's
it is going to happen.
Banning a feat only means player characters can't use it. If a writer wanted to use it in his/her scenario then it will happen regardless of banning.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So to make sure I'm following:
If a melee class builds really specifically and jumps through enough hoops, then eventually they can get a melee-only save-or-die effect a few levels LATER than any random full caster would get by default?
And we want to ban the ability because... why?
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There are many many other ways mod writers can kill you. Think of all OP or broken builds and combos that existed pre-ACG. Campaign Devs kept those out of scenarios.
Have you never played Dalsine Affair? I'd be happy to GM it for you. Just bring your favorite level 3-4 PC who doesn't have enough prestige for a Raise Dead. *evil grin*
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The brokeness of this feat is not a soul character doing it, but with a partner.
One person stunns them and then the Mericles butcher kills them.
The ability to have your caster buddy let you do the "die" part of the save-or-die that they could have just done themselves is not "broken".
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The ability to have your caster buddy let you do the "die" part of the save-or-die that they could have just done themselves is not "broken".The brokeness of this feat is not a soul character doing it, but with a partner.
One person stunns them and then the Mericles butcher kills them.
I would agree for ht emost part. But stun debuff is easier to inflict then helpless.
It is nothing compared to something that takes them out completely.
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There are many many other ways mod writers can kill you. Think of all OP or broken builds and combos that existed pre-ACG. Campaign Devs kept those out of scenarios.
o.O
At L8 and beyond, death is just a speed bump anyways.
Yeah, destroying equipment is better. Now that creates a lot of deliciously sad tears.
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The fastest way to get 5 dice of sneak attack is to go rogue/ninja/vivasectionist 5 followed by 1 level in sleepless detective and 1 level in inner sea pirate gets you 5 dice at 7. Also a total bab of 3.
After that you can take master spy 1 for a total of 6 sneak attack dice at level 8.
Those are all the accelerated sneak attack I know of.
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There are many many other ways mod writers can kill you. Think of all OP or broken builds and combos that existed pre-ACG. Campaign Devs kept those out of scenarios.o.O
At L8 and beyond, death is just a speed bump anyways.Yeah, destroying equipment is better. Now that creates a lot of deliciously sad tears.
So, I love you, in an entirely unprofessional manner.
I was running at Scotties next to your table, with a mod that had frost giants. I sundered everyone's s#$!, because, why not?It was beautiful. Tears refiled my glass faster than the server. They were delicious.
They. Were. Delicious.
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The ability to have your caster buddy let you do the "die" part of the save-or-die that they could have just done themselves is not "broken".The brokeness of this feat is not a soul character doing it, but with a partner.
One person stunns them and then the Mericles butcher kills them.
I would agree for ht emost part. But stun debuff is easier to inflict then helpless.
It is nothing compared to something that takes them out completely.
And even one round of stun tends to mean that NPC is dead. Unless you get a really weird situation.
Glad I was GMing that one, as playing it, as anyone but the wizard, would have been embarrassing, except, maybe, for the first PC who went into the water to rescue the NPCs. This is about the only time, in a sub-tier 1-2 game, that I have seen anyone, other than a PC after his allies took out the caster, recover from a color spray.
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You can't multiclass Rogue and Ninja.The fastest way to get 5 dice of sneak attack is to go rogue/ninja/vivasectionist 5 followed by 1 level in sleepless detective and 1 level in inner sea pirate gets you 5 dice at 7. Also a total bab of 3.
After that you can take master spy 1 for a total of 6 sneak attack dice at level 8.
Those are all the accelerated sneak attack I know of.
I think he meant Rogue or Ninja or Vivisectionist for 5 levels. Not all three at once.
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I think he meant Rogue or Ninja or Vivisectionist for 5 levels. Not all three at once.You can't multiclass Rogue and Ninja.The fastest way to get 5 dice of sneak attack is to go rogue/ninja/vivasectionist 5 followed by 1 level in sleepless detective and 1 level in inner sea pirate gets you 5 dice at 7. Also a total bab of 3.
After that you can take master spy 1 for a total of 6 sneak attack dice at level 8.
Those are all the accelerated sneak attack I know of.
Last time I checked, Vivisectionist is not PFS Legal, but yeah, the math presented works with 5 levels of either Rogue or Ninja (+3 BAB / +3d6 SA) plus Sleepless Detective 1 (+0 BAB / +1d6 SA = +3 BAB / +4d6 SA) plus Inner Sea Pirate 1 (+0 BAB / +1d6 SA = +3 BAB / +5d6 SA).
If it were legal to multiclass Rogue/Ninja, it still wouldn't speed this build up as you need 5 ranks in skills to qualify for the prestige classes
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Quickest build:
Brawler (Snakebite Striker 1)/Slayer 3/Ninja or Rogue 1/Sleepless Detective 1/Inner Sea Pirate 1, for 7 levels and all the prerequisites. You then need Stunning Fist to make this combo actually work, so it comes online at 8th level at the earliest, and then only with a bizarre class combination...and still isn't any worse than many Save or Die effects spell casters have readily available.
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I don't think the slayer will stack with the rogue
You can stack levels of them (and need a level of Slayer for this anyway). I guess it's debatable if the Sneak Attack would stack, if it won't just make it Slayer 1/Rogue 3, same number of levels, all the Sneak Attack from the Rogue.
The prereqs of stunning fist withou further taking a level of monk is Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8..
My progression plus one level of Monk was what I was thinking.
It actually is worse (or better depending on how you look at it). The caster casts save or die, they make the save or die. This build has to hit you 1) then has to land the stunning fist 2) then you get a fort save on the CDG.
That last one is almost meaningless...but yeah, there's an attack and then a Save, making it worse than most Save-or-Die effects.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I don't think the slayer will stack with the rogue
I just wanted to tell you, that you might be wrong, but since prestige classes have:
This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
And rogues and slayers have the same wording:
Sneak Attack
At 3rd level, if a slayer catches an opponent unable to defend itself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The slayer's attack deals extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the slayer flanks his target. This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this additional damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a slayer can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The slayer must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A slayer cannot use sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
So yeah they might very well not stack.
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This is the language i was worried about.
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two
classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme.
While a character can multiclass with these parent classes,
this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities
don’t stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the
character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline),
that choice must match similar choices made by the parent
classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).
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Setting up a coup de grace is not more powerful than *any* save or suck spell.
I'm not sure...it seems considerably more powerful than this.
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IIRC, for spells, if there is both an attack roll and a save, it is a really nasty spell. Disintegrate, for instance, is one such spell.
Ranged touch attack, then the target gets a Fort save to reduce the damage from (2xCL, minimum 26, max 40)d6 to only 5d6. And the really nasty effect only requires bringing the target to 0 hit points, rather than negative Con...
Somehow, this doesn't really compare.
Attack roll, while burning a limited resource (Stunning Fist attempts)
Target gets a Fort save against a usually relatively low DC (10 + 1/2 character level + Wis mod)
And then target gets the final Fortitude save against a DC of damage done plus 10. Not inconsequential, unless your build only does 1d4-2 or worse. Seen that on a CdG, Sorcerer or Wizard with a dagger.
But it only requires a raise dead, rather than a resurrection...
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Setting up a coup de grace is not more powerful than *any* save or suck spell.I'm not sure...it seems considerably more powerful than this.
I'd have to agree. Any spell that just causes frightened or sickened is weak sauce compared to havign a coup de grace set up. Heck, for casters, even staggered is kinda meh in many cases.