Ah.
I think discovering it's core material is important, in answering these questions.
It was quoted earlier by James Jacobs that Celestial armor has its weight reduction from magical qualities and not from special material.
Sure, but that really doesn't change the fact that this particular quote from UE doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. It also doesn't address whether adding Mithral to Celestial Plate actually does anything, other than making it Mithral. Then there's the pricing issue.Scroll up again and read the part about the Lion's Shield.Interesting conversation but two things:
1. It's mAster_marshmallow.
2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.
I think you need to read the material before commenting, sir.
The section quoted comes from "Pricing New Magic Items" in Ultimate Campaign.
If an armor is made of mithral, it gains the benefits of being made from mithral. There does not have to be a general rule that says it does, because the rule is inherent in mithral's description.
I've read the material, thanks.
But you are correct in that I misspoke. I was referencing your quotation from Inner Sea Gods, not UC or UE. That quotation is generally irrelevant, as was noted by another poster above.
The UC citation is more helpful, but again doesn't really address a number of the concerns which have been pointed out quite well by numerous people.
Bottom line is that the RAW answer, despite your protestations, is "Ask your GM". Because there aren't clear rules addressing this specific situation.
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If you add the description of celestial to any item and you do not change its words(RAW) then you will get exactly one type of armor. Medium Armor.
Sure, but that really doesn't change the fact that this particular quote from UE doesn't prove what you're trying to prove. It also doesn't address whether adding Mithral to Celestial Plate actually does anything, other than making it Mithral. Then there's the pricing issue.Scroll up again and read the part about the Lion's Shield.Interesting conversation but two things:
1. It's mAster_marshmallow.
2. The rules say it is conceivable that, e.g., Deadeye Leather could be made out of leather instead of studded leather. The bolded section quoted says that different types of armor may be used, not different types of material. This means that you could conceivably have Rhino Hide armor that is actually the equivalent of Leather. This is not the same thing as saying Rhino Hide can be made out of Angelskin, which is the conclusion you're drawing. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just saying the quotation you're insisting upon proving your point doesn't do it.
I think you need to read the material before commenting, sir.
The section quoted comes from "Pricing New Magic Items" in Ultimate Campaign.
If an armor is made of mithral, it gains the benefits of being made from mithral. There does not have to be a general rule that says it does, because the rule is inherent in mithral's description.
I've read the material, thanks.
But you are correct in that I misspoke. I was referencing your quotation from Inner Sea Gods, not UC or UE. That quotation is generally irrelevant, as was noted by another poster above.
The UC citation is more helpful, but again doesn't really address a number of the concerns which have been pointed out quite well by numerous people.
Bottom line is that the RAW answer, despite your protestations, is "Ask your GM". Because there aren't clear rules addressing this specific situation.
I have never once indicated otherwise.
Eh, your position seems to be "Yeah, the GM doesn't have to follow these rules, but this is how it works."
That's different than "Ask your GM because the rules are unclear."
Also, RAW = Ask your GM is different than "You can absolutely do this by RAW".
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One other thing to consider, while celestial armors don't seem to be made of a particular special material, and do indeed get their special qualities entirely from magic, it also indicates that after the enchantment the resultant armor is 'fine and light' and possibly of a silvery/gold color. Now, if the magic just made it lighter, it would be one thing, but it also makes it 'fine' which in this context means 'thin, delicate, wispy.' If we presume that typically this enchantment is applied to regular steel armor, then we must also assume that the enchantment itself specifically alters the material in question, making it both lighter and finer. Thematically this most likely is either converting it to something only found in the celestial realms or magically making it approximate that particular unknown material.
If, as I think I have demonstrated we must, the magic of the 'celestial' enchantment process also converts the base material of the armor into something else, then it is extremely likely that it would do this no matter what the base material originally was. Steel Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, Gold Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, and Mithral Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor.
Now, this is indeed contrary to the general guideline that specific magical items can be made out of different things, such as special materials or different styles of armor, I also think that most people realize that this general guideline has limits. For example, while I would probably allow studded leather instead of leather for enchanted eelskin, I wouldn't allow an Enchanted Eelskin Breastplate. Where these lines occur exactly will vary from GM to GM, and since all custom magic items are very firmly placed by RAW into GM purview anyway this isn't a real problem or a rules question, but I think many, perhaps most GMs would conclude that celestial armors can't benefit further from being mithral.
If, as I think I have demonstrated we must, the magic of the 'celestial' enchantment process also converts the base material of the armor into something else, then it is extremely likely that it would do this no matter what the base material originally was. Steel Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, Gold Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, and Mithral Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor.That is a great way to explain why it can't be done, and would likely be my ruling (I came to the same conclusion earlier) in a game I was running. Unfortunately, it is still making an assumption from the flavor description of the item.
I certainly would never say that a GM could or should not allow mithral celestial plate armor to be light armor (requiring medium armor proficiency etc. etc.)
I do think though that such a GM would be an outlier. And neither is violating RAW in any way at all, since we are well beyond any specific rules when deciding these things, other than the rule that GMs get to decide and players should expect them to decide on a case-by-case basis, even in the most RAW games.
If, as I think I have demonstrated we must, the magic of the 'celestial' enchantment process also converts the base material of the armor into something else, then it is extremely likely that it would do this no matter what the base material originally was. Steel Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, Gold Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, and Mithral Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor.That is a great way to explain why it can't be done, and would likely be my ruling (I came to the same conclusion earlier) in a game I was running. Unfortunately, it is still making an assumption from the flavor description of the item.
I 100% agree with this explanation, but there are no rules to back it.
Eh, your position seems to be "Yeah, the GM doesn't have to follow these rules, but this is how it works."
That's different than "Ask your GM because the rules are unclear."
Also, RAW = Ask your GM is different than "You can absolutely do this by RAW".
That is my position, and the rules are pretty clear. There are guidelines in how to price the item, and if your DM and player cannot come to an agreement then it is suggested that you not make the item. I don't know how it can be any clearer in the rules for making custom items...
Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
In this case, no, we are not assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that always drops armour to one level lighter. We are assuming "Celestiial" is an enhancement that moves the armour category to a specific one, as you say.
The "Celestial" from Celestial Plate moves it to Medium, specifically. What MM was saying, and I was agreeing, in the specific context of a custom, house ruled, magical item, was that taking the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, the chainmail version, that is treated as Light, would be better then, because it is moving it to the specific armour category of Light, savvy?
Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
In this case, no, we are not assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that always drops armour to one level lighter. We are assuming "Celestiial" is an enhancement that moves the armour category to a specific one, as you say.
The "Celestial" from Celestial Plate moves it to Medium, specifically. What MM was saying, and I was agreeing, in the specific context of a custom, house ruled, magical item, was that taking the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, the chainmail version, that is treated as Light, would be better then, because it is moving it to the specific armour category of Light, savvy?
Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why...
But there are rules supporting it. The rules for Mithral are clear. All we are doing is using Mithral as the base metal, and applying the written rules to it. Implying anything further is not part of the written rules and therefore doesn't belong in the rules forum.
Not that your opinion doesn't matter, but I'm just going with what's written.
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...Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
In this case, no, we are not assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that always drops armour to one level lighter. We are assuming "Celestiial" is an enhancement that moves the armour category to a specific one, as you say.
The "Celestial" from Celestial Plate moves it to Medium, specifically. What MM was saying, and I was agreeing, in the specific context of a custom, house ruled, magical item, was that taking the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, the chainmail version, that is treated as Light, would be better then, because it is moving it to the specific armour category of Light, savvy?
Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it
Except there are no written rules saying that Celestial makes armor one step lighter. You're IMPLYING that it does. It doesn't.
You're making some rather large assumptions assuming that's what it means. But they're just that - assumptions.
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I am willing to allow that either way is possible under the RAI. It's farfetched to believe that full plate can become light armor as RAW. Its impossible to achieve it.
Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. Does Celestial reduce armor by one category, or does it do a fixed reduction to medium/light? So far, the answer seems to constantly change depending on which one is better for your argument at the moment.
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That is my position, and the rules are pretty clear. There are guidelines in how to price the item, and if your DM and player cannot come to an agreement then it is suggested that you not make the item. I don't know how it can be any clearer in the rules for making custom items...Eh, your position seems to be "Yeah, the GM doesn't have to follow these rules, but this is how it works."
That's different than "Ask your GM because the rules are unclear."
Also, RAW = Ask your GM is different than "You can absolutely do this by RAW".
So then I'm curious why you said that you've never suggested otherwise in response to my statement as to the status of RAW, when your position then is actually quite different than the one you were responding to.
"These are the rules. But your GM may not want to follow them, so ask."
is different than
"Better ask your GM because the rules aren't altogether clear."
It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. Does Celestial reduce armor by one category, or does it do a fixed reduction to medium/light? So far, the answer seems to constantly change depending on which one is better for your argument at the moment.Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
The overarching point is that "Celestial" doesn't provide one specific subset of benefits. So you really can't draw any uniform conclusions. If every piece of "Celestial" armor behaved the same way, you might be able to infer something that specific. Since they don't, you can't.
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ut there are rules supporting it. The rules for Mithral are clear. All we are doing is using Mithral as the base metal, and applying the written rules to it. Implying anything further is not part of the written rules and therefore doesn't belong in the rules forum.
Not that your opinion doesn't matter, but I'm just going with what's written.
Actually the only thing written is that celestial full plate is treated as medium and celestial armor is treay as light armor.
You are assuming that it making something celestial drops it down by one armor category but the raws never says to treat celestial as a pseudo enhancement.
I do agree it could be read that way but the fact that each celestial(normal and plate) can be its own things you can't say that your interpretation is factual. That is why many of us are saying "ask the GM".
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The overarching point is that "Celestial" doesn't provide one specific subset of benefits. So you really can't draw any uniform conclusions. If every piece of "Celestial" armor behaved the same way, you might be able to infer something that specific. Since they don't, you can't.It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. Does Celestial reduce armor by one category, or does it do a fixed reduction to medium/light? So far, the answer seems to constantly change depending on which one is better for your argument at the moment.Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
That, I can agree with. There's no explicit RAW on how mithral celestial armor would work, and no clear precedent to call upon for judging it. Thus far the case for it shifting to light armor seems stronger to me, but it's clearly a case of "ask your GM."
It seems like you're trying to have it both ways. Does Celestial reduce armor by one category, or does it do a fixed reduction to medium/light? So far, the answer seems to constantly change depending on which one is better for your argument at the moment.Then we still disagree. I was trying to avoid repeating an earlier post.
The enhancement process for heavy armor makes it medium. The process for medium moves medium armor to light armor. Basically the celestial name is only a name not an all encompassing magic process so you can't apply "celestial" to anything.
The idea is that you found a way to move medium armor to light armor and called it celestial.
Later you may have found a way to move heavy armor to medium and called it celestial plate.
That is why MM's idea can possibly not work so he can't say its RAW.
I did not change anything . I said.more than once that each celestial armor could be a specific process with the a similar name added later. You not seeing it does not make it into a new position .
I know this isn't RAW, but how do you guys feel about the following from a balance standpoint?
Look at adding mithral to celestial as trying to half a half. You don't get the benefit of halving the original, and therefore get half the benefits (I know this is a stretch for rules and logic). IE, Mithral Celestial Plate would be +7 max dex, -2 check penalty, 15% spell failure, requires medium proficiency, but counts as light for movement. This way, the check and spell failure are the same as celestial armor. Max dex is one worse, but you would get 3 more ac from armor. So, with exceptional dex, you gain 2 ac for 11,600 gold compared to celestial armor. You could also do the same with the celestial armor and get +9 max dex, -1 check penalty, and 10% spell failure for 4000 gold.
(NOTE: I rounded down for the armor check penalty because I feel like part of the check penalty comes from a lack of ability to move and not just the weight. I am iffy on if that is the right call for the chainmail version, since it says it can be hidden under cloths easily, but for plate that makes perfect sense considering you still have long, solid plates that would restrict movement slightly. Also, if you don't round down, then mithral celestial armor still runs into the 0 check penalty problem - why do you care if you are proficient or not if there is no check penalty?)I feel like that isn't all that terrible balance wise and makes for a nice homebrew compromise. You are skipping the biggest problem (imo) of mithral celestial plate which is having a 0 check penalty and almost no spell failure.
P.S. I feel it is a travesty that this is such a hotly debated topic, and only 2 of us have marked the original post as FAQ...
First, that isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is getting heavy armor down to light armor.
Second, the reason people aren't flagging the OP is that 95% of the people in the thread know the answer: its a custom magic item, ask your GM.
Not to mention that since Celestial Plate is technically a 3.5 item, the odds of an official answer on it are just about nil.
Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Is it a special material or an enchantment?
If an enchantment, what bonus cost would it incur?
To me it makes much more sense as a special material and doesn't stack and looks to be treated in that way in the costing. If it is an enchantment than how much more would the cost be? +3 enchantment?
Neither are in RAW for materials or enchantment. But hypothetically.
Second, "ask your GM" isn't an answer if someone is wondering what to do in a game they are running. That is a very poor bandaid to cover the rules not being very clear. Sure, it works fine if the person asking is playing in a campaign, but the answer doesn't work at all if they are running the game. I don't know why everyone seems to assume everyone asking a question or looking for an answer in the rules forum must be a player (and honestly, many seem to think they are idiots that can't read, simply because they don't already agree with them).
"Ask your GM" is the short version of the answer after those originally answering had to type the longer version a million times. The full answer is "The rules don't adequately cover the question at this point, so ask your GM." That is pretty much understood by the community.
If you happen to be a GM that answer still tells you that there are no adequate rules for the situation and that you will either A) have to go post for advice in the Advice forum on how to adjudicate it or B) don't allow it until such a time as the rules are clarified.
Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Exactly the order in which it should be applied is not part of the rules. Yet you keep stating that your order of application is correct. If the order of applications is not part of the rule set it is not in the rule set either way.
Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
But how can one make a piece of armour? You say it doesn't matter, somehow it just magically appears in the store. There are craftsmen that have to work on it.
If you say it is an enchantment to the armour. Then it has to be made first, then the enchantment placed upon it. And remains medium.
If you say the steel needs the enchantment? Then it changes the properties of the mitral steel to celestial and becomes only the celestial special material. And remains medium.
Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
But how can one make a piece of armour? You say it doesn't matter, somehow it just magically appears in the store. There are craftsmen that have to work on it.
If you say it is an enchantment to the armour. Then it has to be made first, then the enchantment placed upon it. And remains medium.
If you say the steel needs the enchantment? Then it changes the properties of the mitral steel to celestial and becomes only the celestial special material. And remains medium.
Remember that bit about me citing Mithral Crystals and using alternate skill checks when crafting magic items because you could craft the metal from scratch into a set of armor according to the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat? The order in which we apply the properties does not matter, because we are applying both properties simultaneously.
Is it a special material or an enchantment?
If an enchantment, what bonus cost would it incur?
To me it makes much more sense as a special material and doesn't stack and looks to be treated in that way in the costing. If it is an enchantment than how much more would the cost be? +3 enchantment?
Neither are in RAW for materials or enchantment. But hypothetically.
Citations from JJ in another rules thread are about the closest thing we'll ever get to an answer on this, and he says it's an enchantment. The armor is made lighter because of the magic being used on it, not because of the special material used.
If you say it is an enchantment to the armour. Then it has to be made first, then the enchantment placed upon it. And remains medium.
If you say the steel needs the enchantment? Then it changes the properties of the mitral steel to celestial and becomes only the celestial special material. And remains medium.
But Celestial is not a special material, it doesn't turn into a new material. We have covered this extensively.
Remember that bit about me citing Mithral Crystals and using alternate skill checks when crafting magic items because you could craft the metal from scratch into a set of armor according to the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat? The order in which we apply the properties does not matter, because we are applying both properties simultaneously.Except that none of that is true, even by the optional talasmanic component rules. Here is what UCamp has to actually say about changing base materials:
Altering Existing Items
The Core Rulebook doesn’t allow item creation feats to
alter the physical nature of an item, its default size, its
shape, or its magical properties. For example, there is
no mechanism for using crafting feats to change a steel
+1 longsword into an adamantine +1 longsword, a Large
+1 chain shirt into a Medium +1 chain shirt, boots of speed
into an amulet of speed, or a +1 unholy longsword into a +1
f laming shock longsword. Many GMs might decide that
these kinds of transformations are impossible, beyond
the scope of mortals, or not as cost-efficient as crafting
a new item from scratch. Others might allow these sorts
of transformations for free or a small surcharge. Keep in
mind the following warnings.So you cannot take any existing item(Celestial Plate) and change its material
And in order to craft a new set of magic armor, the mundane armor is a required material. There is no simultaneous crafting.
Citations from JJ in another rules thread are about the closest thing we'll ever get to an answer on this, and he says it's an enchantment. The armor is made lighter because of the magic being used on it, not because of the special material...JJ is not a rules source, and should never be referenced as such. He has no more weight when talking rules than any given forum poster, and he freely admits such.
I never said anything about magically turning the armor to Mithral. Mithral is not magic in any way. Mithral's properties are not magic.
Celestial Armor's material is not magic, because it is not cited as such in its description. In all other cases, any special materials are listed in the item's description, such as with a Mithral Fullplate of Speed. The Celestial Shield specifically calls its material out as being made of steel, but its weight is still cut in half.Not that it really matters, but in the original source Celestial Plate is listed at 28,650 gp for it's price, but its construction cost is 115,150 gp. It confuses me.
I'm not saying JJ's word is gospel or even official, I'm just greateful to have the opinion of someone on the Paizo team on the issue.
Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
By the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .
MM. the reason you keep getting so much resistance. is because you keep claiming RAW but there is no rule to say celestial _____ gives a generic drop in category per RAW
By the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Okay, but that still doesn't invalidate Mithral's properties.
Celestial armor is medium armor, by the text. So we take that medium armor, and see that it is made of Mithral. Mithral armor is treated on step lighter.
When the armor becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor, which means that the Mithral on it takes it lighter, the order doesn't matter because the lightness is not coming from the same source.
What rules are you claiming that I am breaking now? And more importantly, how do they have any effect on the finished product?
There is no rule, thats the whole point everyones been trying to make, other than: Ask your GMBy the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Okay, but that still doesn't invalidate Mithral's properties.
Celestial armor is medium armor, by the text. So we take that medium armor, and see that it is made of Mithral. Mithral armor is treated on step lighter.
When the armor becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor, which means that the Mithral on it takes it lighter, the order doesn't matter because the lightness is not coming from the same source.
What rules are you claiming that I am breaking now? And more importantly, how do they have any effect on the finished product?
Except for the rules that are printed and quoted in the newer books.
There is even a guideline for pricing new items.
"Ask your GM" was the rule, back in CRB days.
By the rules you have to make the armor before it is enhanced. That means it is crafted as mithral and made into celestial plate 2nd. That is in the rules because armor has to be masterwork before any it is enhanced. . Special armor and weapons don't have a rule to bypass that so they follow the same creation rules as other armor and weapons .Guys I'm not saying that Celestial Armor(s) reduce the weight category by one. Mithral does. Nothing in the rules says that the magic enchantments placed on the armor negate Mithral's properties.
If you make a suit of Celestial Plate, it is considered medium by it's own description. If it is made out of Mithral, then rules regarding Mithral armor are applied and it is treated one category lighter. Order of operations is not part of the rules set. I am applying the rules from both armors simultaneously.
Okay, but that still doesn't invalidate Mithral's properties.
Celestial armor is medium armor, by the text. So we take that medium armor, and see that it is made of Mithral. Mithral armor is treated on step lighter.
When the armor becomes Celestial Plate, it becomes medium armor, which means that the Mithral on it takes it lighter, the order doesn't matter because the lightness is not coming from the same source.
What rules are you claiming that I am breaking now? And more importantly, how do they have any effect on the finished product?
Because you cannot take the stats for full plate, add mithral, add celestial, and then add mithral again.
Full plate is heavy armor. Mithral full plate is heavy armor but is medium for "purposes of movement and other limitations." Celestial mithral fullplate is medium armor. (At this point, you cannot re-add mithral properties, they have already been taken into account.)
master_marshmallow,
Lets assume that we treated this 3.5 item as if it were a Pathfinder item and subject to Pathfinder rules.
In that case, if you were to start with Mithral Plate you have Heavy armor that counts as Medium armor for certain things.
Next, we slap Celestial Plate on it and it counts as...Medium Armor.
Why? Because that is what Celestial Plate states. What it does not state it is that it becomes one category lighter. If it stated it becomes one category lighter then you would have Light armor (for certain purposes and Medium armor for the remaining purposes).
So, Heavy that is treated as Medium for certain purposes is now Heavy that is treated as Medium for all purposes.
Now, I know you will say...but Mithral...!! But, because you start with mithral you cannot calculate the Celestial first and Mithral second. The Mithral is calculated first and then the Celestial is applied. When Celestial is applied it has a specific list of stats which pretty much replaces whatever Mithral did.
A basic rules concept is in effect here: unless it states it stacks or it states it reduces what is already in existence then it doesn't. Celestial Plate does not state either of those things.
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be prof icient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Yeah, there is no order of operations. Mithral armor has Mithral properties, that is the rule. Apply Mithral statistics to Celestial plate, and you have done nothing but follow the rules as they are written.
Inferring something else from the rules goes into house rule territory, which is fine, but not in the rules forum.