Mithral Celestial Plate Armor


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I've been thinking about grabbing Celestial Plate Armor for my barbarian, so I can gain the benefits of fast movement. However, I realized that the armor never says it's made of mithral. Were I to get this armor in mithril, would it count as light armor and allow for a faster move speed?


Plate is heavy, celestial is already treating it as medium. You can't reduce it down more to light.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Plate is heavy, celestial is already treating it as medium. You can't reduce it down more to light.

This is wrong, your interpretation is correct.


It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.


This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.


Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.

These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.

Link to previous post

Spoiler:
Ultimate Campaign, pg 170, under "Pricing New Items" wrote:


Some new items are really existing magic items with a different weapon or armor type, such as a dagger of venom that is a rapier instead of a dagger or a lion’s shield that’s a wooden shield instead of a metal shield. For these items, just replace the price of the nonmagical masterwork item with the cost of the new type of item. For example, a rapier of venom has a price of 8,320 gp instead of the dagger of venom’s price of 8,302 gp.

It is within the rules to have a specific item altered to be in a different form, according to Ultimate Campaign.

same page wrote:
or a lion’s shield that’s a wooden shield instead of a metal shield.

This particular line here is a specific example of a Specific Magic Item being made from a different material.

Short answer: Yes, you can have Celestial Armor crafted from Mithral, unless your DM decides that Ultimate Campaign doesn't exist.


Thank you mister_marshmallow. On a tangential note, my barbarian is a worshipper of Ragathiel, so your avatar fits.

To Caith's credit, though, I will ask.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.
These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.

What interpretation, those are the game rules. Celestial Full Plate is a specific magic item, it cannot be altered without allowing custom magic items, which is by GM allowance. It is outright banned in PFS. In a home game, I would rule against it, but some GMs might allow it. There is no rule allowing you to make Mithral Celestial Full Plate without GM approval.


Calth wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.
These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.
What interpretation, those are the game rules. Celestial Full Plate is a specific magic item, it cannot be altered without allowing custom magic items, which is by GM allowance. It is outright banned in PFS. In a home game, I would rule against it, but some GMs might allow it. There is no rule allowing you to make Mithral Celestial Full Plate without GM approval.

PFS is not RAW, and the question was not posted in the PFS forum, it was posted in the Rules Forum.

Links to relevant discussions and quotes are in the post above.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Consult your GM to see if he/she will allow this particular combination.

PFS is a moot point, since Celestial Plate Armor is not legal for play anyways.


Despite what Master Marshmellow is suggesting, it is not simply a yes.

Creating this combination of an item requires permission from your GM, some may not object to it but some probably would. However, if they allow the item, then yes it would effectively be light armor.


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Claxon wrote:

Despite what Master Marshmellow is suggesting, it is not simply a yes.

Creating this combination of an item requires permission from your GM, some may not object to it but some probably would. However, if they allow the item, then yes it would effectively be light armor.

Inner Sea Gods pg 250 wrote:

The following specific armors and shields are popular

among mortal devotees of the deities of the Inner Sea
region, as designated in the item entries. This section
focuses on relatively inexpensive magic armors and
shields that low-level characters can afford. For higher level
characters, remember that these armors can be
upgraded like any other magic item by adding "plus
equivalent" or "gp value" abilities, then paying the
difference between the original item's price and the price
of the item when upgraded with the additional special
abilities. Likewise, variants of these armors may exist
using different types of armor, such as Deadeye leather,
which is made from leather armor instead of studded
leather.
The full rules for customizing magic armor and
shields can be found in Chapter 15 of the Pathfinder RPG
Core Rulebook.

Emphasis mine.

Your DM can choose to not use these rules, but the rules exist in print.

In the rules forum, this is the correct answer. Like all things a player wants to do in the game, the DM has final say, I have never contested that.


If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.


Splendor wrote:
If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.

Does this count for non-fighters? If so, this is amazing!


Splendor wrote:
If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.

So you would blatantly disallow RAW, then allow the use of a class ability enhancing item for a class ability that the character doesn't have?

o.O


master_marshmallow wrote:
Splendor wrote:
If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.

So you would blatantly disallow RAW, then allow the use of a class ability enhancing item for a class ability that the character doesn't have?

o.O

To be fair, Splendor just got here. And the item is pretty decent. Like the Bracers of the Avenging Knight enhance smite by four levels and grant something to non-paladins. But that makes the non-paladin case explicitly.


aceDiamond wrote:
Splendor wrote:
If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.
Does this count for non-fighters? If so, this is amazing!

It does not grant the ability to anyone, you must have the class ability in order for an item to enhance it, unless it specifically states that it gives you that class ability, such as with the Monk's Robe.

EDIT: NINJA'd.... kinda....


master_marshmallow wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
Splendor wrote:
If your DM doesn't allow you to make it mithral (which I wouldn't) just pick up a Sash of the War Champion to be able to use your full movement.
Does this count for non-fighters? If so, this is amazing!

It does not grant the ability to anyone, you must have the class ability in order for an item to enhance it, unless it specifically states that it gives you that class ability, such as with the Monk's Robe.

EDIT: NINJA'd.... kinda....

Though a one level dip in fighter solves that.


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aceDiamond wrote:
I've been thinking about grabbing Celestial Plate Armor for my barbarian, so I can gain the benefits of fast movement. However, I realized that the armor never says it's made of mithral. Were I to get this armor in mithril, would it count as light armor and allow for a faster move speed?

You can make it Mithral per RAW, but since the armor is already treated as one category lighter, and mithral does the same thing the GM could rule that mithral acts on the base armor type, and only overlaps, but does not stack. Ask your GM.


wraithstrike wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
I've been thinking about grabbing Celestial Plate Armor for my barbarian, so I can gain the benefits of fast movement. However, I realized that the armor never says it's made of mithral. Were I to get this armor in mithril, would it count as light armor and allow for a faster move speed?
You can make it Mithral per RAW, but since the armor is already treated as one category lighter, and mithral does the same thing the GM could rule that mithral acts on the base armor type, and only overlaps, but does not stack. Ask your GM.

It does not say that it is treated as one step lighter, it says that it is treated as medium armor for all purposes, including proficiency.

Mithral will affect it normally RAW.

Of course DM has final say, but do not misconstrue RAW.


mithral: Heavy armors are treated as medium
celestial plate: This ... full plate ... is treated as medium armor.

Yeah I see treated as medium on both for heavy armors. and full plate is a heavy armor. So I don't see anything happen if you have both on the "class" of armor it is.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
I've been thinking about grabbing Celestial Plate Armor for my barbarian, so I can gain the benefits of fast movement. However, I realized that the armor never says it's made of mithral. Were I to get this armor in mithril, would it count as light armor and allow for a faster move speed?
You can make it Mithral per RAW, but since the armor is already treated as one category lighter, and mithral does the same thing the GM could rule that mithral acts on the base armor type, and only overlaps, but does not stack. Ask your GM.

It does not say that it is treated as one step lighter, it says that it is treated as medium armor for all purposes, including proficiency.

Mithral will affect it normally RAW.

Of course DM has final say, but do not misconstrue RAW.

If plate(heavy armor) is being treated as medium armor then it(plate) is being treated as if it is one step lighter.

Therefore mithral which treats the base form(plate) as one step lighter may not allow it to stack. The fact that it uses "treated as" means that it is not according to the base armor.

So by RAW it is actually heavy armor that is "treated as" medium armor. Which goes back to what I said about the GM applying it to the base form.

That means "ask the GM".


As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.


So, whether or not I'd allow this at my table, I am very much on the fence but RAW Mithral states,emphasis mine:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

While Celestial Plate Armor says (emphasis mine):

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Aura faint transmutation (good); CL 8th

Slot armor; Price 25,000 gp; Weight 25 lbs.

DESCRIPTION
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor.

This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 12,500 gp

Mithral calls out the need for Heavy Armor Proficiency if you take a stock Full Plate and add Mithral, whereas Celestial Plate Armor says it is treated as Medium Armor without explicitly calling the need for Heavy Armor Proficiency, meaning if you have Medium Proficiency you could use Celestial Plate.

So, from there it is easy to see that Celestial Plate Armor at a Base is Medium Armor, than applying Mithral would make it Light Armor, but still needing the Medium Armor proficiency to wear it without penalty. There is nothing stating they are the same type of bonus. In fact you could argue that Celestial Plate Armor drop in category is a "Magic" bonus and Mithral is a "Physical" bonus due to change in material. Much like a deflection bonus and an armor bonus will stack for AC.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.

It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.


wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.
It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.

Still a different effect, even if a very similar one.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.
It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.
Still a different effect, even if a very similar one.

This is not a bonus so that does not mean they stack. Both start from the assumption of the base armor type. If the referenced the effective armor type it would be different.


wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.
It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.
Still a different effect, even if a very similar one.
This is not a bonus so that does not mean they stack. Both start from the assumption of the base armor type. If the referenced the effective armor type it would be different.

Celestial Plate is medium armor. Period.

Nowhere in the armor's description does it say that it is made out of mithral.

RAW it is legal to have specific magic items crafted out of different materials, as cited previously in regards to the Lion's Shield.

Ergo, RAW it is legal to have Celestial Plate crafted out of Mithral. No where in the rules does it state that the mithral properties are negated or overridden by the Celestial Plate's enchantment. Ruling as such is DM Fiat and in house rule territory.

As far as a question in the rules forum goes, that is the correct answer. Yes, it is plausible according to the written rules in the book. Will it fly at every table? No. Neither does Leadership, and that is also clearly written in the rules.


Celestial Plate is medium armor. Period. Where are you getting this? It has the exact same wording as mithral, heavy armor is treated as medium. Sure you can craft it out of mithral, but the category of the armor will be treated as medium twice.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It seems to me that the fact that the celestial plate specifically, calls out itself as being treated as medium armor instead of saying it is one category lighter means that no matter what it stays as medium armor.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Celestial Plate is medium armor. Period. Where are you getting this? It has the exact same wording as mithral, heavy armor is treated as medium. Sure you can craft it out of mithral, but the category of the armor will be treated as medium twice.

It does not have the same wording, this has been cited upthread.

It does not say in its description that it is heavy armor, as evident by the fact that it does not call for heavy armor proficiency. The same is true for its predecessor, Celestial Armor.

Special Materials, Mithral wrote:
When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Of note, Celestial Plate has never been reprinted under the PFRPG rules set.

Doesn't change RAW, it isn't made out of mithral, and armors that are made out of mithral gain those benefits. The armor says that it is medium, therefore when made mithral it gets treated as light.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.
It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.
Still a different effect, even if a very similar one.
This is not a bonus so that does not mean they stack. Both start from the assumption of the base armor type. If the referenced the effective armor type it would be different.

Celestial Plate is medium armor. Period.

Nowhere in the armor's description does it say that it is made out of mithral.

RAW it is legal to have specific magic items crafted out of different materials, as cited previously in regards to the Lion's Shield.

Ergo, RAW it is legal to have Celestial Plate crafted out of Mithral. No where in the rules does it state that the mithral properties are negated or overridden by the Celestial Plate's enchantment. Ruling as such is DM Fiat and in house rule territory.

As far as a question in the rules forum goes, that is the correct answer. Yes, it is plausible according to the written rules in the book. Will it fly at every table? No. Neither does Leadership, and that is also clearly written in the rules.

If that were true the book would not say "treated as". "Treat as" means X is not Y, but you treat it as though it is Y.

By your logic mithral full plate is medium, however it is not.


wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
As far as stacking goes, Celestial Plate and Mithral are similar-but-different effects. Celestial is a flat one category lighter for all purposes, while mithral is only one category lighter in a limited set of circumstances.
It seems to be treated the same for all purposes except proficiency. Celestial Plate seems to be plate armor that can be use with medium armor proficiency(which is the only difference I see), and for what the OP is wanting the celesital armor already does it.
Still a different effect, even if a very similar one.
This is not a bonus so that does not mean they stack. Both start from the assumption of the base armor type. If the referenced the effective armor type it would be different.

Celestial Plate is medium armor. Period.

Nowhere in the armor's description does it say that it is made out of mithral.

RAW it is legal to have specific magic items crafted out of different materials, as cited previously in regards to the Lion's Shield.

Ergo, RAW it is legal to have Celestial Plate crafted out of Mithral. No where in the rules does it state that the mithral properties are negated or overridden by the Celestial Plate's enchantment. Ruling as such is DM Fiat and in house rule territory.

As far as a question in the rules forum goes, that is the correct answer. Yes, it is plausible according to the written rules in the book. Will it fly at every table? No. Neither does Leadership, and that is also clearly written in the rules.

If that were true the book would not say "treated as". "Treat as" means X is not Y, but you treat it as though it is Y.

It's also not written under Pathfinder RPG rules, because it was part of the 3.5 run so the wording may be different.

Don't forget that Celestial armor also has phrasing 'considered light armor' despite the fact that it is medium armor (chain mail).

The armor flat out calls itself as saying it is treated as medium armor. It also is not called out as being made of mithral.

The rules exist to have a specific magic item made of different materials.

Mithral armors gain the benefit of being treated as one category lighter.

Where in the rules does it not allow this?


My point is that the mithral needs a point of reference. I am saying it looks at what the armor actually is, not what it is treated as. You think that mithral builds off of what it is treated as. It is like trying to climb two foot ladders that are side by side. You can do it, but you can't get any higher than 5 feet.


wraithstrike wrote:
My point is that the mithral needs a point of reference. I am saying it looks at what the armor actually is, not what it is treated as. You think that mithral builds off of what it is treated as. It is like trying to climb two foot ladders that are side by side. You can do it, but you can't get any higher than 5 feet.

My point is that the wording is old and before a time when Paizo didn't clarify such things as they did with their reprinting of Celestial Armor and Elven Chain.

What point of reference does mithral need? The armor is not made of mithral, because if it was it would be cited as such, not unlike Elven Chain or a Breastplate of Vanishing.

If you choose that interpretation for your own game, that is fine, but in the rules forum there is no such rule as "mithral needs a point of reference to determine whether or not armor can benefit from being made out of it."

Dark Archive

Celestial Plate Armor is a specific magic item that most likely does not exist in most campaign worlds, I know that in the Mummy's Mask game I am running I have specifically told the PC's that Specific items from other AP's are not necessarily available to them and it would be a case by case issue.

You must remember that Celestial Plate Armor is not just a type of armor it is actually a very specific suit of armor crafted for a single person with a massive history and backstory and should not be just available for anyone to buy from ye olde magic shop.

Hence customisations such as making it Mithral is kind of irrelevant as the item is unique, and the unique item is not Mithral.

Also the rules text you quote as saying these things exist uses the words "variants of these armors may exist using different types of armor", in no way does that say that this item must exist in every campaign, what it means is ASK your GM if you can have something like this and that there are ways to calculate the cost of said item.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Mr. Marshmallow (I just love that name, for some reason), would the cost to craft Celestial Plate Armor out of Mithral then be only +3700gp?

4000gp for Mithral medium armor, minus the 300gp that was already paid before the armor was enchanted?


master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
My point is that the mithral needs a point of reference. I am saying it looks at what the armor actually is, not what it is treated as. You think that mithral builds off of what it is treated as. It is like trying to climb two foot ladders that are side by side. You can do it, but you can't get any higher than 5 feet.

My point is that the wording is old and before a time when Paizo didn't clarify such things as they did with their reprinting of Celestial Armor and Elven Chain.

What point of reference does mithral need? The armor is not made of mithral, because if it was it would be cited as such, not unlike Elven Chain or a Breastplate of Vanishing.

If you choose that interpretation for your own game, that is fine, but in the rules forum there is no such rule as "mithral needs a point of reference to determine whether or not armor can benefit from being made out of it."

Point of reference=which armor type is mithral trying to act upon. I say it is acting on heavy armor. You say it is acting on medium armor.

However I don't think either of us will convince the other so we may as well agree to disagree.

PS: I never said it was made of Mithral. I think we both agree that you can not add mithral to twice.


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wraithstrike wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
My point is that the mithral needs a point of reference. I am saying it looks at what the armor actually is, not what it is treated as. You think that mithral builds off of what it is treated as. It is like trying to climb two foot ladders that are side by side. You can do it, but you can't get any higher than 5 feet.

My point is that the wording is old and before a time when Paizo didn't clarify such things as they did with their reprinting of Celestial Armor and Elven Chain.

What point of reference does mithral need? The armor is not made of mithral, because if it was it would be cited as such, not unlike Elven Chain or a Breastplate of Vanishing.

If you choose that interpretation for your own game, that is fine, but in the rules forum there is no such rule as "mithral needs a point of reference to determine whether or not armor can benefit from being made out of it."

Point of reference=which armor type is mithral trying to act upon. I say it is acting on heavy armor. You say it is acting on medium armor.

However I don't think either of us will convince the other so we may as well agree to disagree.

PS: I never said it was made of Mithral. I think we both agree that you can not add mithral to twice.

Really, there would need to be a reprint for us to figure who was 'right' because the way I see it, we both are (it finally clicked with me what you are saying).

I am still of the impression that the item's description trumps the general rule, because there is a general understanding that specific trumps general, and I read that as the armor is medium armor. The words used to get there really mean less than people want them to when it comes to Rules Lawyering, as has been pointed out by Devs before this discussion. I would love to have someone 'official' actually give an opinion on this, someone like James or SKR.

Nefreet wrote:

Mr. Marshmallow (I just love that name, for some reason), would the cost to craft Celestial Plate Armor out of Mithral then be only +3700gp?

4000gp for Mithral medium armor, minus the 300gp that was already paid before the armor was enchanted?

Technically, yes.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.

These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.

Link to previous post

** spoiler omitted **

"May exist". Not "do exist". Not to mention the context for those rules. Special material changes in specific magic items fall under the same level of scrutiny as any custom-built magic item--there are printed rules to help price them, but ultimately they're an "ask your GM before proceeding", not a "they work unless my GM is house-ruling". At best, the pricing guidelines for the former are more reliable and less likely to cause problems.

On that note, I'd disallow it from reducing the armor past medium under the custom item guidelines that expect you to price armor based on total effect rather than blind application. You could still get the other properties of mithril, but further classification reduction would require another plus or two worth of cost.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

And so, Mithral Celestial Armor would only cost +700gp?


blahpers wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.

These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.

Link to previous post

** spoiler omitted **

"May exist". Not "do exist". Not to mention the context for those rules. Special material changes in specific magic items fall under the same level of scrutiny as any custom-built magic item--there are printed rules to help price them, but ultimately they're an "ask your GM before proceeding", not a "they work unless my GM is house-ruling". At best, the pricing guidelines for the former are more reliable and less likely to cause problems.

On that note, I'd disallow it from reducing the armor past medium under the custom item guidelines that expect you to price armor based on total effect rather than blind application. You could still get the other properties of mithril, but further classification reduction would require another plus or two worth of cost.

Technically, all rules are subject to DM approval. And who's to say that the DM is not the one using these rules to create special items for the player? You make too many assumptions. The fact of the matter is that these rules exist in print, and if someone inquires as to whether or not these items could exist, the answer is yes under these guidelines. I have never said that the DM doesn't get a say in whether or not the item is created at any point.

Nefreet wrote:
And so, Mithral Celestial Armor would only cost +700gp?

Technically, yes.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

would the cost to craft Celestial Plate Armor out of Mithral then be only +3700gp?

4000gp for Mithral medium armor, minus the 300gp that was already paid before the armor was enchanted?
Technically, yes.
master_marshmallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
And so, Mithral Celestial Armor would only cost +700gp?
Technically, yes.

So, if you're unsure what material these armors are actually made of, your default assumption is that they're made of steel?

Even though the word "steel" is never used?

I ask because the main problem all these years with determining a price for Mithral Celestial Armor was that nobody knew what the base material was, and so determining what that material should cost was impossible.

That's why Mithral Celestial Armor isn't allowed in PFS. It's not a balance issue, or a custom magic item issue, it's because nobody could figure out how much to pay for the darn thing.

Relevant discussion from the PFS forums.


Nefreet wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

would the cost to craft Celestial Plate Armor out of Mithral then be only +3700gp?

4000gp for Mithral medium armor, minus the 300gp that was already paid before the armor was enchanted?
Technically, yes.
master_marshmallow wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
And so, Mithral Celestial Armor would only cost +700gp?
Technically, yes.

So, if you're unsure what material these armors are actually made of, your default assumption is that they're made of steel?

Even though the word "steel" is never used?

I ask because the main problem all these years with determining a price for Mithral Celestial Armor was that nobody knew what the base material was, and so determining what that material should cost was impossible.

That's why Mithral Celestial Armor isn't allowed in PFS. It's not a balance issue, or a custom magic item issue, it's because nobody could figure out how much to pay for the darn thing.

Relevant discussion from the PFS forums.

RAW they are the prices you inquired about earlier.

In a home game I would probably charge as if they were the size category their base armors are.

The only thing we know about the base material is that it is not mithral. We know this because it does not say that it is mithral. Therefore it can be surmised that under the aforementioned rules presented for new magic items that the armors can be made from mithral and gain the benefits of being made from mithral.


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Well that presents an interesting scenario. What comes first the mithral or the celestial? It would have to be the mithral, right? You can't make Celestial Fullplate out if mithral if the Fullplate is already made. It would have to be fullplate->made out of mithral->enchanted as Celestial.
That solves the other problem as well. Fullplate->heavy armor, mithral->med armor but need heavy prof., Celestial->med armor.


I don't believe by raw that you can assume that you can stack the bonuses from mithril and celestial. As a specific item, there is no description that the higher max dex and lower ACP is due to the material or magic.

I can just as well assume that those bonuses are due to the material of the armor. That making the item mithril just gives the user the max dex and ACP of mithril armor.

Reasoning that you can change the material in my explanation works like this - you can change a silver axe to a cold iron axe. The axe would then be cold iron - not cold iron + silver.


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master_marshmallow wrote:
blahpers wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Helikon wrote:
It is made of silver. You cannot make it mithral.
Calth wrote:
This question has been the subject of many threads, all with the same conclusion: If you are allowed to stack them, yes, it would be treated as light, but ask your GM. Custom magic items are available solely at GM discretion, and it would not be unreasonable to disallow the stacking of the mithral effect twice.

These are also wrong. Your interpretation is correct.

Link to previous post

** spoiler omitted **

"May exist". Not "do exist". Not to mention the context for those rules. Special material changes in specific magic items fall under the same level of scrutiny as any custom-built magic item--there are printed rules to help price them, but ultimately they're an "ask your GM before proceeding", not a "they work unless my GM is house-ruling". At best, the pricing guidelines for the former are more reliable and less likely to cause problems.

On that note, I'd disallow it from reducing the armor past medium under the custom item guidelines that expect you to price armor based on total effect rather than blind application. You could still get the other properties of mithril, but further classification reduction would require another plus or two worth of cost.

Technically, all rules are subject to DM approval. And who's to say that the DM is not the one using these rules to create special items for the player? You make too many assumptions. The fact of the matter is that these rules exist in print, and if someone inquires as to whether or not these items could exist, the answer is yes under these guidelines. I have never said that the DM doesn't get a say in whether or not the item is created at any point.

Perhaps not, but the way in which you present your argument implicitly places disallowing of a mithril celestial plate in the same category as disallowing a wand of magic missiles when, in fact, it's closer to the cloak of continuous mage armor end of the spectrum. It isn't a baseline from which GMs can depart; it's a guideline for when GMs wish to permit things above and beyond the baseline.


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Lets ask a question: If we turn 'regular' armor into 'silver' armor can we then turn 'silver' armor into 'mithral' armor and have it count as 'silver'? Answer: No

Celestial Armor is made out of silver. It cannot be both silver and mithral. Since this is a specific magic item the moment you choose to make a Chainmail out of Mithral instead of Silver you cannot use it for Celestial Armor.

Dark Archive

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Well that presents an interesting scenario. What comes first the mithral or the celestial? It would have to be the mithral, right? You can't make Celestial Fullplate out if mithral if the Fullplate is already made. It would have to be fullplate->made out of mithral->enchanted as Celestial.

That solves the other problem as well. Fullplate->heavy armor, mithral->med armor but need heavy prof., Celestial->med armor.

I really think Durngrun has cinched it here. Magic items are made in a certain order. You can't change the material something is made of once it has already been made. Following the UC guidelines, assuming the GM is allowing custom items, you can have a Mithral Celestial Full Plate. But it's not a Celestial Plate Armour that is then made into Mithral. That's not how magic item crafting works. It's a Mithral Full Plate that is then enhanced with the "Celestial" quality. This decides the order in which the modifiers are added and, hence, what the resulting armour's qualities are.

Special Materials:
Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that have innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or a weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.

Each of the special materials described below has a definite game effect. Some creatures have damage reduction that makes them resistant to all but a special type of damage, such as that dealt by evil-aligned weapons or bludgeoning weapons. Others are vulnerable to weapons of a particular material. Characters may choose to carry several different types of weapons, depending upon the types of creatures they most commonly encounter.

[Archives of Nethys Link] - [PRD Link]

Mithral:
Mithral is a rare, silvery metal that is lighter than steel but just as hard. When worked like steel, it can be used to create amazing armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Weapons and armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

[snip]

  • Medium Armour - +4,000gp
  • Heavy Armour - +9,000gp

Same links as above, as direct linking not currently possible.

Celestial Plate Armour:
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

[Archives of Nethys Link] - Celestial Plate Armour does not exist in Core materials and, as such, is not on the PRD

Mithral Celestial Plate Armour - Part 1:
Now, to the specifics of applying the above. Firstly, start with the Full Plate Armour that we are modifying. We have a cost of 1,500 gold pieces (GP), +9 Armour Class (AC), +1 Maximum Dexterity Bonus (MDB), -6 Armour Check Penalty (ACP), 35% Arcane Spell Failure (ASF), 50 lbs., and Heavy Armour (HA), with proficiency needed.

Then apply the Mithral modifiers. The plate is one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations (i.e. Medium Armour (MA), though HA proficiency is still required to avoid ACP to attack rolls), ASF reduced by 10%, MDB increased by 2, ACP reduced by 3 to a minimum of 0, weighs half as much as the standard item, and costs +9,000 GP, as the armour we are modifying is HA. This results in an armour with the followings statistics : 10,500 GP, +9 AC, +2 MDB, -3 ACP, 25% ASF, 25 lbs., and MA, though HA proficiency required. As the cost of masterwork is already included in the +9,000 GP, I think it is fully reasonable to assume that the 1 reduction in ACP from masterwork is included in the 3 reduction from Mithral.

Finally we have to add the magical enhancements from the "Celestial" quality. Which are... well, there is no "Celestial" enhancement, is there? We first have to work this out, so that the armour can be modified. So, let's take a break from this to work out what "Celestial" does.

Celestial Enhancement:
Okay, to figure out what "Celestial" does, we need to compare the Celestial Plate Armour to normal Full Plate Armour and figure out the differences. Basic Full Plate Armour has the following attributes : 1,500 GP, +9 AC, +1 MDB, -6 ACP, 35% ASF, 50 lbs., and HA, with proficiency needed. As all magical items need to start with masterwork armour, we can assume the cost has to be increased by 150 GP, and the ACP reduced by 1. Then we push the Plate up to a +3 enhancement, to cancel out the Full Plate portion of the Celestial Plate entirely, costing an additional 9,000gp, bringing the total up to 10,650 GP.

Now, breaking down Celestial Plate Armour, it has the following statistics : 28,650 GP, +12 AC, +6 MDB, -3 ACP, 20% ASF, 25 lbs., is treated as MA, and can cast Fly once per day. So, taking out the +3 Full Plate, we have an additional cost of 18,000 GP, an increase in the MDB of 5, a reduction in ACP of 2, a reduction in ASF of 15%, halving the weight, treated as MA, and the ability to cast Fly once per day. It is difficult/ possibly impossible to tell whether or what the + enhancement equivalent of this enhancement is, so for the sake of continuing, let's say it's one of the straight cost enhancements, costing +18,000 GP to add to any armour.

Now that we have the cost and qualities of the "Celestial" enhancement, we can continue with the creation of our Mithral Celestial Plate Armour.

Mithral Celestial Plate Armour - Part 2:
So, once again, we have our Mithral Full Plate, with the following qualities : 10,500 GP, +9 AC, +2 MDB, -3 ACP, 25% ASF, 25 lbs., and MA, though HA proficiency required.

Next, we have our "Celestial" enhancement, that we want to add to our Mithral Full Plate to create our Mithral Celestial Plate Armour. It has the following qualities : +18,000 GP, increase of MDB of 5, reduction of ACP of 2, reduction of ASF of 15%, halving weight, treating as MA, and the ability to cast Fly once per day.

Combining them both, we get Mithral Celestial Plate Armour : 28,500 GP, +9 AC, +7 MDB, -1 ACP, 10% ASF, 12.5 lbs., treated as MA for all purposes, and the ability to cast Fly once per day. Done, sorted, finished, and as close to RAW as it's actually possible for something that's clearly not meant to be done in RAW, by virtue of not giving the details or costs of the "Celestial" enhancement. I welcome, nah, hope, for further discussions, as long as you can point to the rules as I have, and explain your process.

To answer the OP, no, by RAW, Mithral Celestial Plate Armour is still Medium Armour.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:
RAW they are the prices you inquired about earlier

If we assume that Celestial Armor is made of steel, then you'd be correct, and those would be the prices for changing it to Mithral.

But we don't know that, and can't assume that.

Both armors are described using an ambiguous "silver and gold" metal. Although we don't know what it is, it certainly isn't steel.

And therefore, +3700gp and +700gp, are not correct.

You have to determine the base material, and its cost, before you start switching things out. And nobody has ever confirmed what these armors are made of. Until someone does, we've hit a roadblock.

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