wraithstrike |
I think his point is that if you go with the reduction in armor size category being fixed, then you could just use the enchantment off of the CRB Celestial Armor and apply it to full plate, making it light armor that way.
So, does the Celestial enchantment reduce armor by one category, or cause a fixed reduction to a given category (medium for plate version of the magic, light for chain version). If it's a fixed change, it means Celestia Plate and Celestial Chain technically have different types of magic on them, and the Celestial Chain version is vastly superior. If armor category and max dex changes are relative to the armor's base stats, then it becomes a question of whether Mithral stacks with Celestial. Which I personally think it would, since it's two different abilities from different sources (even if bonuses are very similar, but not identical).
If he is making thay argument based o. whay I said he completely misunderstood me.
I was saying if the magic specifically made heavy armor into medium NOT just one category lighter. That is why I presented options A and B above to illustrate the difference because another poster said it could work that way. If the magic specifically moves the armor to one category that is different from a general reduction no matter what.
If this is still not clear then I will have to explain after I get home.
master_marshmallow |
To start, thus is not RAW, this is just my interpretation, but I see the Celestial enchantment as clearly taking the base armor one step lighter than it is, magically by the word of JJ. Mithral is lighter due to it's physical properties. Taking the physical properties into account, the armor is medium, and thus when Celestial is applied to it it magically becomes one step lighter.
My understanding of your statement is that there are one of two ways it could work. The first being that there are two different enchantments going on here, and that the one on chain specifically makes a medium armor light, and the one on plate specifically makes a heavy armor medium. By this logic, Celestial plate's enchantment won't make Mithral plate lighter because its magic only works on heavy armor, to make it medium. The Celestial chain enchantment also doesn't work because out makes a medium armor light and Mithral plate doesn't count as either because it is supposed to be heavy but is treated as medium.
The second is that the enchantment treats the armor as written, regardless of the base armor. Applying Celestial chain's enchantment to heavy armor would in this case turn it light, and applying Celestial plate's enchantment would turn out medium, in all cases. This makes Celestial chain's enchantment vastly superior in effect.
Crozekiel |
In my opinion, there isn't enough information to come to a rock solid conclusion. It seems like there are RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate being light armor; there are also RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate to exist, but the Mithral is wasted money and its medium armor.
For me, there isn't enough information about what Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate is. JJ says its a magic effect. That makes it sound like an enchantment you could apply to any armor, and therefore be treated 2 levels lower with Mithral. In that case, there isn't enough information to determine what that enchantment does, we only have 2 examples of final products from the enchantment. Then he also mentioned that Celestial Armor is a specific item. Then, its unknown how much of it actually does come from magic and how much comes from a special material, so changing the material would be difficult to determine what benefits that would confer. Hell, it could be argued that the base material doesn't matter, and the process of making Celestial Armor or Plate actually physically changes the base material into a new material unique to Celestial Armor.
For your campaign, there are definitely rules to support either side. I think that is why people keep saying "ask your DM". Sure, that doesn't answer the question, but without more information, nothing really does.
Chengar Qordath |
Think is... I don't see celestial as an enchantment.
Celestial is something made from a metal unique to the Planes of Good, essentially Mithral's mithral. It's not something you can apply to standard steel.
What about the earlier quoted statement from James Jacobs that it is magic, not material?
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:What about the earlier quoted statement from James Jacobs that it is magic, not material?Think is... I don't see celestial as an enchantment.
Celestial is something made from a metal unique to the Planes of Good, essentially Mithral's mithral. It's not something you can apply to standard steel.
If Paizo staff can disagree with each other, I think I can be allowed to disagree with them individually from time to time. It's not something I have to worry about when I GM PFS, and when I run my own games I have the right as acknowledged by the esteemed Mr. Jacobs to diverge from anyone, no matter who they may be.
Chess Pwn |
LazarX wrote:What about the earlier quoted statement from James Jacobs that it is magic, not material?Think is... I don't see celestial as an enchantment.
Celestial is something made from a metal unique to the Planes of Good, essentially Mithral's mithral. It's not something you can apply to standard steel.
Well that means that both apply, but the effects are the same so it's still redundant. Like if you have innate natural armor and gain natural armor. they wouldn't stank even though one is magic and the other is material.
master_marshmallow |
In my opinion, plate is heavy armour.
Mithral: "Heavy armors are treated as medium"
Celestial: "is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armour."
It's the same to me. Both do the same thing. There is little question in my mind. They do not stack.
There is nothing to stack. There are no bonuses to have types to overlap. One is a material that is lighter, and the other is a magical effect that makes the material lighter. Sources already cited.
By that interpretation, one can apply Celestial chain's enchantment to adamantine full plate and have it treated as light armor.Think is... I don't see celestial as an enchantment.
Celestial is something made from a metal unique to the Planes of Good, essentially Mithral's mithral. It's not something you can apply to standard steel.
That's fine for your game, but this is the rules forum where readers want to know what the rules of the games are, not what you would rule in your home game.
In my opinion, there isn't enough information to come to a rock solid conclusion. It seems like there are RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate being light armor; there are also RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate to exist, but the Mithral is wasted money and its medium armor.
The only RAW in this scenario are that Celestial Armor/Celestial Plate can be made from a Mithral Fullplate.
For me, there isn't enough information about what Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate is. JJ says its a magic effect. That makes it sound like an enchantment you could apply to any armor, and therefore be treated 2 levels lower with Mithral. In that case, there isn't enough information to determine what that enchantment does, we only have 2 examples of final products from the enchantment.
This is actually not true, there is also the Celestial Shield which interacts with Celestial Armor and has the same lightened effect on it, being only 7 lbs as opposed to 15. It has no ACP or Spell Failure, and is called out as being made of steel which cements itself to me as being lighter due to the magical properties of the Celestial Enchantment. This is my interpretation of RAI, and is most certainly not RAW.
Then he also mentioned that Celestial Armor is a specific item. Then, its unknown how much of it actually does come from magic and how much comes from a special material, so changing the material would be difficult to determine what benefits that would confer. Hell, it could be argued that the base material doesn't matter, and the process of making Celestial Armor or Plate actually physically changes the base material into a new material unique to Celestial Armor.
There is no RAW supporting that, so we cannot make rulings based on that assumption. That said, it would be a fine house ruling.
For your campaign, there are definitely rules to support either side. I think that is why people keep saying "ask your DM". Sure, that doesn't answer the question, but without more information, nothing really does.
With the information given, it is possible to make Celestial Armor that is made from Mithral Fullplate by RAW. No one is contesting that. What it's statistics are is the topic at hand here.
Mydrrin |
OK, lets go about this in a logical way.
Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.
So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.
And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.
Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?
Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.
master_marshmallow |
OK, lets go about this in a logical way.
Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.
So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.
And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.
Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?
Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.
There is nothing to stack!!!!
What follows this statement is only my interpretation: Mithral Fullplate weighs 25 lbs, which is half the weight of full plate. Mithral full plate has statistical adjustments due to it's physical properties, the metal is actually lighter.
Celestial (armors and shield) both cut the weight of their respective armor in half, reduce the armor by a weight category, and reduce the ACP and Spell Failures while increasing the max DEX by at least 300%. It is implied by James Jacobs that Celestial Armor has its properties due to the magic used on it, and that it is not lighter because of any special material used.
By applying the Celestial Armor Template onto a suit of Mithral Fullplate, you end up with a suit of +3 fullplate which is treated as light armor (but requiring medium proficiency), with a max DEX of +8, an ASF of 5%, and an ACP of 0. It weighs 12.5 lbs and costs 33,850 gp (16,925 gp to craft). These figures are achieved by simply applying the Mithral statistics to the Celestial plate armor.
The armor weighs as much as it weighs normally, without being magic. In all cases Celestial enchantments cut the weight in half, so regardless of the material, I interpret that the Celestial enchantment will reduce the weight by half and treat the armor as one category lighter, to a minimum of light armor. I am not claiming this is RAW, only that this is how I interpret the enchantment.
Jon Otaguro 428 |
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To say anything about celestial plate armor is RAW is laughable. This item comes from a 3.5 module, not from a core rulebook. The pricing for this item is different in the module, archives of nethys and pfsrd. For most people, this item doesn't even exist in their world.
Then to suggest that it is RAW that the "lightness" of this armor derives from magic and not material is ridiculous. Only the creator of the item knows that. You can have your opinion that celestial and mithril can stack, but you can't convince me that is RAW.
master_marshmallow |
To say anything about celestial plate armor is RAW is laughable. This item comes from a 3.5 module, not from a core rulebook. The pricing for this item is different in the module, archives of nethys and pfsrd. For most people, this item doesn't even exist in their world.
Then to suggest that it is RAW that the "lightness" of this armor derives from magic and not material is ridiculous. Only the creator of the item knows that. You can have your opinion that celestial and mithril can stack, but you can't convince me that is RAW.
There is nothing to stack!!!!
You can have specific magic items made from different bases, be it a different armor type or a different material. This is supported by RAW. Celestial [plate] Armor is a specific item, Mithral is a different material. The rules support this existing, I don't have to convince you.
Crozekiel |
...
With the information given, it is possible to make Celestial Armor that is made from Mithral Fullplate by RAW. No one is contesting that. What it's statistics are is the topic at hand here.
I agree, and was trying to point out that there just isn't enough information to say definitively what would happen.
I was also giving my interpretations of it (although I didn't know about the shield...)
wraithstrike |
To start, thus is not RAW, this is just my interpretation, but I see the Celestial enchantment as clearly taking the base armor one step lighter than it is, magically by the word of JJ. Mithral is lighter due to it's physical properties. Taking the physical properties into account, the armor is medium, and thus when Celestial is applied to it it magically becomes one step lighter.
My understanding of your statement is that there are one of two ways it could work. The first being that there are two different enchantments going on here, and that the one on chain specifically makes a medium armor light, and the one on plate specifically makes a heavy armor medium. By this logic, Celestial plate's enchantment won't make Mithral plate lighter because its magic only works on heavy armor, to make it medium. The Celestial chain enchantment also doesn't work because out makes a medium armor light and Mithral plate doesn't count as either because it is supposed to be heavy but is treated as medium.
The second is that the enchantment treats the armor as written, regardless of the base armor. Applying Celestial chain's enchantment to heavy armor would in this case turn it light, and applying Celestial plate's enchantment would turn out medium, in all cases. This makes Celestial chain's enchantment vastly superior in effect.
You are close, but I was not using Celestial as a specific enhancement.
I was saying the magic item creation process used to create Celestial Plate only moves heavy armor to medium.
The creation process for Celestial armor only moves medium armor to light armor and despite the similar names the process may not be the exact same.
Going back to Mithral Celestial Plate it is already treated as medium armor before any magic is applied because it is Mithral. Since the magic could(the rules don't say one way or the other) possibly only make heavy armor into medium armor only then it would not work. <----That is what I have been trying to say.
I will put it another way:
Mithal + full plate= medium armor.
Magic that specifically only* changes heavy armor to medium armor= medium armor.
So if both the armor is already treated as medium due to mithral, and the celestial plate magic also moves the armor from heavy to medium not necessarily a lighter category then they both do the same thing.
*with respect to armor category.
Peet |
The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.
I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.
If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.
If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.
The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.
In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.
Gauss |
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All of the debate regarding whether or not Mithral Celestial Plate Armor is RAW or not is flawed in that Celestial Plate Armor cannot be Pathfinder RAW to begin with.
This is because Celestial Plate Armor is from a 3.5 Paizo publication and not a Pathfinder Paizo publication. Thus, it is not part of the Pathfinder game and cannot be RAW for Pathfinder.
Of course, a GM may grant permission to use it but that would be GM fiat. At that point whether or not the GM decides you can apply Mithral to it is also GM fiat since it is a 3.5 item.
Riuken |
There is nothing to stack!!!!
I believe we're talking about "stacking", not Stacking. As in, properties combining instead of overlapping, not the specific rule for magic bonuses. I know it's very hard for you to understand, since you just keep yelling this, so I'll lay it out.
Stacking (CRB): the rule that specifies, "The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."
Stacking (generic): a summation of the properties involved, as opposed to an overlap of the properties.
LordSynos |
It does not say that it is treated as one step lighter, it says that it is treated as medium armor for all purposes, including proficiency.
Mithral will affect it normally RAW.
Oh look, your post from the first page. Emphasis mine, of course. It does not get treated as one step lighter, it is treated an Medium Armour. Guess that means you agree that adding Celestial to Mithral Full Plate would not make it Light, because, as you said, it doesn't treat it one step lighter, it makes it Medium, right? And as everyone else has agreed, the Mithral would have to come first, because of the way that Magic Item crafting works. Hence, Mithral Celestial Plate armour is still Medium. Glad that's sorted.
LordSynos |
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The Talsimanic Component from Ultimate Campaign, the very source material that is being debated here.
What the heck are you talking about? What we were debating here is the metal, Mithral, from the Special Materials sections of the CRB and UE. Not sure where you're getting these crystals from, never heard of them before. Got a link there? (PRD preferable, UC is on there)
It has to be mithral, yes, but it does not have to be mithral full plate first, but the point is moot.
I disagree, and linked to the sections of the Magic Item crafting section of the CRB to support my argument. You are disagreeing based on what exactly? As I said, link, cite, source. Because you said so is not a valid RAW argument.
Creative Director calls out Clestial Armor as being treated as lighter because of the magic involved. Mithral is treated as lighter because it is physically lighter. Applying one to the other is covered in making custom items in the new materials.
JJ, the Creative Director, is awesome. Respect the Dinosaur. Seriously. But he's not the rules guy, nor is he on the rule team (as far as I know), and a post from 2010 is hardly binding RAW. Regardless, that's not what he said.
In any event, celestial armor isn't an armor quality. It's a unique kind of armor, and thus has a unique pricing. It does weird stuff; it's really light, it's made of gold, it's REALLY nice looking, it lets you fly, and so on. Its pricing is a result of ALL of these elements, and that's pretty much that.
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armor.
So it's made of silver or gold, specifically. Do you know whether the specifics of the enhancement need gold or silver to work? I sure don't. This was long before the UC guidelines you cited for making magic items from different materials existed. I think he'd have something very different to say about it now. Note he also specifies the higher max Dex and the arcane spell failure being the aspect of the magic here, and he's also talking about Celestial Armour, not Celestial Plate.
When someone asks: "Can I make a suit of Celestial Armor out of Mithral Fullplate and have it be treated as light armor?" the answer, unequivocally is "Yes, using the guidelines from Ultimate Campaign."
As Majuba pointed out, clearly not, or else there wouldn't be 119 posts in this thread, and gods know how many other thread arguing this exact topic. As I pointed out in my post of the first page, the "RAW" (and it's not even RAW because, truly, as Gauss points out, none of this is actually RAW on the basis we're talking about a 3.5 item, not a Pathfinder item, and there is no "Celestial" enhancement, it's all just guesswork, which JJ also called out as being pointless in his quote) would suggest that a Mithral Celestial Plate Armour would still be Medium Armour.
Within those guidelines from Ultimate Campaign is the much debated "subject to DM approval" line which I am being hounded for.
Funny how guidelines are suddenly RAW. There's a difference between a guideline and a rule, you know that, right? And there's a reason you are being hounded for that. You make it seem, to the new, inexperienced person, i.e. the ones most likely to come to the Rules forum for guidance, that this is sure RAW, and that any GM who tells you you can't have it is wrong. Which is completely false. No, you never said that the GM can't overrule it, but you made damn well sure never to say that they could until someone called you on it, and even then, you compared it to a GM denying you wands or magic or classes, as opposed to the much more accurate comparison of a Sword of Continuous True Strike, which those very UC guidelines call out as a bad idea.
Technically, all rules are subject to DM approval. And who's to say that the DM is not the one using these rules to create special items for the player? You make too many assumptions. The fact of the matter is that these rules exist in print, and if someone inquires as to whether or not these items could exist, the answer is yes under these guidelines.[/I][/B] I have never said that the DM doesn't get a say in whether or not the item is created at any point.
Emphasis mine.
Okay, so sure, it's a guideline, along with every other rule ever printed. So what, if I may ask, allows you to invalidate this rule more than any other rule aside from the fact that you don't like it. At what point can you say: "This is less of a rule than any other rule printed."
I didn't even need to emphasize this one, you had already done it for me.
Mydrrin |
Mydrrin wrote:OK, lets go about this in a logical way.
Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.
So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.
And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.
Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?
Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.
There is nothing to stack!!!!
What follows this statement is only my interpretation: Mithral Fullplate weighs 25 lbs, which is half the weight of full plate. Mithral full plate has statistical adjustments due to it's physical properties, the metal is actually lighter.
Celestial (armors and shield) both cut the weight of their respective armor in half, reduce the armor by a weight category, and reduce the ACP and Spell Failures while increasing the max DEX by at least 300%. It is implied by James Jacobs that Celestial Armor has its properties due to the magic used on it, and that it is not lighter because of any special material used.
By applying the Celestial Armor Template onto a suit of Mithral Fullplate, you end up with a suit of +3 fullplate which is treated as light armor (but requiring medium proficiency), with a max DEX of +8, an ASF of 5%, and an ACP of 0. It weighs 12.5 lbs and costs 33,850 gp (16,925 gp to craft). These figures are achieved by simply applying the Mithral statistics to the Celestial plate armor.
The armor weighs as much as it weighs normally, without being magic. In all cases Celestial enchantments cut the weight in half, so regardless of the material, I interpret that the Celestial enchantment will reduce the weight by half and treat the...
What do you mean there is nothing to stack, you are trying to make them stack lightness to a quarter to 12.5 pounds. Celestial isn't a process to make something better, it's not a common process. The idea is that the armour of heavenly agents have a special type of material imbued with the divine power of a god to make flying, lightest, least encumbered armour.
So how do you take this special material and make it mitral. It's like taking mithral and combining it with darkwood to make a light, nimble armour for druids. This is two different materials, celestial silver or gold made into armour by the pure will of a god, and a mundane rare light metal. Materials don't stack, they are just materials - and in this case a super rare and impossible for mortals to fabricate. It's a silly construct to allow you think you should.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:...Mydrrin wrote:OK, lets go about this in a logical way.
Would you say that both of them are special materials that make them lighter? Both have the effect to make them lighter and more nimble.
So Celestial Plate has a dex bonus of +6. Celestial weighs 25 pounds.
And mithral full plate a dex bonus of +3. Mithral weights half the normal weight of 50 so 25 pounds.
Celestial plate makes it more nimble than mithral. What would replacing the material add to or hinder the plate?
Both are because of it's lightness that it makes it easier to move around in. You can't stack lightness to make it "lighter". Mithral only works this way with steels. It is only half the weight of steel, not half the weight of celestial silver.
There is nothing to stack!!!!
What follows this statement is only my interpretation: Mithral Fullplate weighs 25 lbs, which is half the weight of full plate. Mithral full plate has statistical adjustments due to it's physical properties, the metal is actually lighter.
Celestial (armors and shield) both cut the weight of their respective armor in half, reduce the armor by a weight category, and reduce the ACP and Spell Failures while increasing the max DEX by at least 300%. It is implied by James Jacobs that Celestial Armor has its properties due to the magic used on it, and that it is not lighter because of any special material used.
By applying the Celestial Armor Template onto a suit of Mithral Fullplate, you end up with a suit of +3 fullplate which is treated as light armor (but requiring medium proficiency), with a max DEX of +8, an ASF of 5%, and an ACP of 0. It weighs 12.5 lbs and costs 33,850 gp (16,925 gp to craft). These figures are achieved by simply applying the Mithral statistics to the Celestial plate armor.
The armor weighs as much as it weighs normally, without being magic. In all cases Celestial enchantments cut the weight in half, so regardless of the material, I interpret that the Celestial enchantment will
It's not a special material, the silver and gold parts are errata'd out of subsequent releases of Celestial Armor.
And even if it was, the rules still say you can make a specific armor out of a different material.The only thing in the game that stacks are bonuses. We are not applying bonuses, we are using a mundane effect of the armor and a magical effect on the armor. Saying they don't stack makes no sense because there is no stacking going on.
I'm the one who pointed out that Celestial Plate was 3.5 in the first place itt, I'm laughing that people are using that to tell me I'm wrong. Flagging for personal attacks.
master_marshmallow |
The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.
I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.
If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.
If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.
The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.
In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.
There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.
There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.
Durngrun Stonebreaker |
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It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.
Mydrrin |
Peet wrote:The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.
I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.
If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.
If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.
The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.
In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.
There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.
There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.
Where is this Celestial enchantment spell? What spell does the gods use to make the armour? It's through divine will that these are created out of gold and silver (thought of as divine/pure because of their lack of reactivity). How does one imbue the mithral (substituted for gold or silver) it's celestial enchantment if you don't have a lawful good god in your pocket with nothing else to do?
Perhaps gold and silver are the only material that can get the celestial enchantment because of their purity. Or perhaps you are so much smarter than the gods?
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Peet wrote:The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.
I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.
If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.
If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.
The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.
In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.
There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.
There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.
Where is this Celestial enchantment spell? What spell does the gods use to make the armour? It's through divine will that these are created out of gold and silver (thought of as divine/pure because of their lack of reactivity). How does one imbue the mithral (substituted for gold or silver) it's celestial enchantment if you don't have a lawful good god in your pocket with nothing else to do?
Perhaps gold and silver are the only material that can get the celestial enchantment because of...
Gold and Silver are no longer part of the description, so that's a moot point.
The rules also don't support that at all, and in the rules forum, that is what I care about.
LordSynos |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the sake of completeness, here's the reference material for the specific armours we're all discussing. Just for everyone's ease of access.
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 11,350 gp
Price 22,400 gp; Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th; Weight 20 lbs.
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction Requirements
Cost 11,350 gp
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 125 (Amazon), PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 464 (Amazon)
Aura faint transmutation [good] CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Price 11,350 gp
Price 13,170 gp; Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th; Weight 7 lbs.
This gold-edged +2 blinding heavy steel shield is impossibly light and handy despite its size. It has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance, and it allows the wielder to use feather fall on himself once per day. A creature wearing celestial armor while wielding a celestial shield may command the armor to provide overland flight rather than fly once per day.
Construction Requirements
Cost 6,670 gp
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, feather fall, overland flight
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 131 (Amazon), Advanced Race Guide pg. 1 (Amazon)
Aura moderate evocation CL 7th
Slot shield; Price 13,170 gp; Weight 7 lbs.
Description
This gold-edged +2 blinding heavy steel shield is impossibly light and handy despite its size. It has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance, and it allows the wielder to use feather fall on himself once per day. A creature wearing celestial armor while wielding a celestial shield may command the armor to provide overland flight rather than fly once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, feather fall, overland flight; Price 6,670 gp
Source Pathfinder #11: Skeletons of Scarwell pg. 29 (Amazon)
Aura faint transmutation (good) CL 8th
Slot armor; Price 28,650 gp; Weight 25 lbs.
Description
Celestial plate armor is a sturdier version of the standard celestial armor. This bright silver suit of +3 full plate is remarkably light, and is treated as medium armor. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, an armor check penalty of –3, and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%. It allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be good, fly; Price 15,150 gp, 1,080 XP
Mydrrin |
Mydrrin wrote:...master_marshmallow wrote:Peet wrote:The first step is to speak to your GM. If you think these arguments are relevant then direct him to read the thread.
I would expect that most GMs will say that this is not possible.
If I was the GM I would say that this is not possible.
If I was a player I would not expect my GM to permit such a thing.
The reason is that while it does not directly violate the stacking rules, it violates their principle, which is that you cannot duplicate an effect to double that effect. Specific circumstances that circumvent this should be directly spelled out, and if they are not then one should not assume that stacking is allowed.
In this case it seems that the advantage from Celestial mimics the advantage gained from mithral, only it is even better. I don`t think it was ever intended that this advantage would be combinable with the mithral benefits. A big part of the problem here is that the item dates from 3.5 and has not been clarified since then. The entry in CRB about celestial armor is basically copied from 3.5.
There is not problem with the fact that it is a 3.5 item, because the rules we are citing only refer to Specific Magic Items. Using the rules as written, you can make a specific magic item out of different material.
There is only one effect that makes the armor lighter, and that is the Celestial enchantment. Mithral is lighter due to mundane reasons, there is no effect being applied to it. The material is actually that light.
Where is this Celestial enchantment spell? What spell does the gods use to make the armour? It's through divine will that these are created out of gold and silver (thought of as divine/pure because of their lack of reactivity). How does one imbue the mithral (substituted for gold or silver) it's celestial enchantment if you don't have a lawful good god in your pocket with nothing else to do?
Perhaps gold and silver are the only material that can get the celestial
Here is the rule:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
LordSynos |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the sake of completeness, here's the reference material for the specific armours we're all discussing. Just for everyone's ease of access.
** spoiler omitted **
Using the links in the above, I compared all three "Celestial" pieces of equipment, for consistency. Turns out all three are inconsistent with each other. They're all being based off the same base, a +3 piece of armour, and yet all of the celestial enhancements cost different amounts and give different bonuses (not just in terms of armour type the final armour counts as, the change in the maximum dexterity penalty is also different). Based on that, if you want to talk about Celestial Plate, the Celestial Armour and Shield are not relevant to the conversation, despite sharing a similar name.
LordSynos |
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.This is actually false.Special Materials, Mithral wrote:When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).The only named limitation on Mithral making the armor lighter is specifically for armor proficiency. For movement and other purposes, it is one step lighter. Not considered, not treated as, it is one step lighter.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I don't see where the quoted text contradicts Durngurn. Specifically in relation to his actual issue, that being the one of order. Call me slow. Could you please be a pal and highlight it for me?
Charon's Little Helper |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mydrrin wrote:Here is the rule:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
Where is this rule from? Also, Celestial Armor is not a special material, we've been over this. It is lighter because of the magic involved.
also, the actual text on Celestial Armor** spoiler omitted **
You are being lied to friends.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.This is actually false.
Special Materials, Mithral wrote:When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check...
You are wrong. It is a matter of order. Celestial Plate is medium - straight up. It's not a modifier on what it was. It's just medium.
Mithril is a modifier on the base armor.
If theoretically you could turn what's already Celestial Plate into mithril - you'd be right.
You can't.
The armor needs to exist before it can be enchanted into Celestial Plate.
Once it's Celestial Plate it can't afterwards become mithril.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Mydrrin wrote:Here is the rule:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
Where is this rule from? Also, Celestial Armor is not a special material, we've been over this. It is lighter because of the magic involved.
also, the actual text on Celestial Armor** spoiler omitted **
You are being lied to friends.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.This is actually false.
Special Materials, Mithral wrote:When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check...You are wrong. It is a matter of order. Celestial Plate is medium - straight up. It's not a modifier on what it was. It's just medium.
Mithril is a modifier on the base armor.
If theoretically you could turn what's already Celestial Plate into mithril - you'd be right.
You can't.
The armor needs to exist before it can be enchanted into Celestial Plate.
Once it's Celestial Plate it can't afterwards become mithril.
Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.
master_marshmallow |
'shmallow, when you've got 100% disagreement, it's maybe time to reconsider whether your stance is "obviously" the only correct way of seeing things.
My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.
Charon's Little Helper |
Kirth Gersen wrote:'shmallow, when you've got 100% disagreement, it's maybe time to reconsider whether your stance is "obviously" the only correct way of seeing things.My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.
Only if you see Celestial Plate as a type of armor & not an enchantment.
And if you want to get that technical - it doesn't actually say it's made out of metal. If it's not inherently metal - it can't be upgraded to mithril.
Kirth Gersen |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My way of seeing things is RAW.
(shrug) I'd be a lot more impressed if the RAW had any degree of internal consistency. Alas, "RAW" in this case (and in a lot of others) consists of a bunch of designers and temp contributors chucking stuff out there without any math behind it and without referencing each other's work.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Kirth Gersen wrote:'shmallow, when you've got 100% disagreement, it's maybe time to reconsider whether your stance is "obviously" the only correct way of seeing things.My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.Only if you see Celestial Plate as a type of armor & not an enchantment.
And if you want to get that technical - it doesn't actually say it's made out of metal. If it's not inherently metal - it can't be upgraded to mithril.
Except for the armor types listed as primarily being made of metal?
I'm really not trying to be that technical, being more technical is what made this thread over 100 posts long.OldSkoolRPG |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My way of seeing things is RAW. I'm looking at the written rules and there is nothing that disallows it. There is material that supports it. I understand that it is a very powerful combo and that a lot of people will try and not allow it.
It is statements like this that convince me that whoever said it is probably wrong. This is simply question begging. Throughout this thread you have repeatedly asserted that your position is RAW when that is what you are supposed to be proving. Others disagree but instead of answering their arguments you just keep saying the same thing over and over which is only your assertion that your interpretation is correct. Since you are the one resorting to a logical fallacy to support their position that leads me to believe the other side is probably correct.
LordSynos |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm going to try and summarise this, and want people involved in this to tell me if they think I have it wrong or right and, where they think it's wrong, cite why, okay?
Alright, first step, there's no two ways about this, this is a custom magic item. We are taking a specific magic armour and modifying it. That makes it custom. So the absolute first step is to ask the GM if custom magic items are okay. IF they are, then we start putting together the magic item. If they're not, you drop the subject. It's not allowed, that's completely okay, it's an optional guideline for GM's anyways.
Second step, deciding the goal. Mithral Celestial Plate Armour. Break this up, Full Plate, made of Mithral, with the modifiers from the Celestial Plate Armour specific magic item. There are no rules for transmuting an existing magic item into a different material type. Note, I'm not saying there's no guideline saying that magic items can't be made from other materials, it has been linked from Ultimate Campaign plenty of times. I'm saying there is no spell or rule for transmuting an existing item into a different, special material. Which means we can't take the Celestial Plate Armour and make it Mithral. There's no rules for how to handle that. Then again, there's no rules for taking Mithral Full Plate and applying the "Celestial" enhancement to it either, because there is nowhere that codifies what the "Celestial" enhancement is or does, exactly. Still, following the text of the Magic Item Creation Section, which has also been linked several times, if we are creating this custom magic item, it would start with the Mithral Full Plate, as the armour being enhanced must be made first.
Thirdly, we take our Mithral Full Plate and apply the "Celestial" armour enhancement as best we can. We can take the "Celestial" enhancement from the Celestial Armour, the Celestial Plate or the Celestial Shield. If we were looking for the best benefit, the Celestial Armour "Celestial" is best, and cheapest. Realistically though, the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate is the one actually made for applying to Full Plate, so we should really use it. We come up with the armour I described in my first post on this thread, here.
Lastly, we bring the item back to our GM, who looks over it under the same guidelines in the Magic Item creation section, and determines if we've priced it fairly, accurately and appropriately given the bonuses it provides. At this point, if you had used the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour as opposed to the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate, the GM should deny the item, as that "Celestial" gives a better benefit for less gold and hence, clearly, isn't priced in line with comparable items. Otherwise, it's up to the specific GM in question.
EDIT : Upon reflection, the GM should reject the Mithral Celestial Plate I statted up as well. It's cheaper than the Celestial Plate, but better. Clearly, my math is off somewhere. However, I hope my method / order of events is still correct.
EDIT 2 : Crafters should also be aware that crafting a set of Celestial Plate costs XP. Cause, you know, it's a 3.5 item.
wraithstrike |
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master_marshmallow wrote:Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.
Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
Mydrrin |
Mydrrin wrote:Here is the rule:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
Where is this rule from? Also, Celestial Armor is not a special material, we've been over this. It is lighter because of the magic involved.
also, the actual text on Celestial Armor** spoiler omitted **
You are being lied to friends.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:It's not a question of stacking but one of order. It has to be mithral first. You can enchant mithral full plate. You cannot take an existing suit of magical armor and then convert it to mithral. Mithral does not make it medium armor. It remains heavy armor but reduces the penalty for wearing it to medium. Then Celestial actually makes it medium armor.This is actually false.
Special Materials, Mithral wrote:When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor, and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check...
The quote is from Special Materials section. First paragraph.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials
Celestial (imbued gold/silver) is a different material than mithral. Full stop. Done.
Mitrhral is only lighter and more nimble in comparison to steel, not different materials, different materials have different attributes and you can only get one property.
LordSynos |
LordSynos wrote:master_marshmallow wrote:Then don't bother making Celestial Plate out of it and make Celestial Armor.This actually makes the most sense, discussing it the way we are. It actually costs less and gives more benefit that the "Celestial" from Celestial Plate Armour anyways.Not really. You are assuming Celesital is like an enhancement that always drops armor to one level lighter from the current form.
It could be that the process for plate makes it medium.
As an example if I cast a spell that gives you an 8 strength.
And then I cast another spell that takes your strength from a 10 directly to an 8, the your strength won't drop to 6 because the spell does not say strength drops by 2. It says it makes it directly into an 8. In that case one effect is duplicating another so there is no benefit to casting both.
In this case, no, we are not assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that always drops armour to one level lighter. We are assuming "Celestial" is an enhancement that moves the armour category to a specific one, as you say.
The "Celestial" from Celestial Plate moves it to Medium, specifically. What MM was saying, and I was agreeing, in the specific context of a custom, house ruled, magical item, was that taking the "Celestial" from Celestial Armour, the chainmail version, that is treated as Light, would be better then, because it is moving it to the specific armour category of Light, savvy?