Crozekiel's page

What I'm suggesting is, using the guidelines in the book, in reference to changing items, to calculate what the "Celestial" enhancement is, being the enhancement on the Celestial Armours. That would then be a set enhancement, like Flaming or Vorpal, which has a specific benefit and a specific cost. Like any enhancement, you can't stack them. Buying Flaming twice doesn't give twice the benefit. Similarly, you couldn't stack "Celestial". I gave a price based on my interpretation, what I was seeing. Multiple people have valued it differently. You could say it's a +5 enhancement or costs 50,000gp. It would have as much basis as the 18,000gp + 1,080xp estimate I gave. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it valuable? Yes. Is it game breaking? Only if you under cost it.

Something else to consider when determining stats for this item:

Mydrrin, are you even reading the replies? It has been pointed out over and over again that it isn't a special material. If I understand correctly, your argument is that no other (official) magic does it, therefore it can't be magic? No matter how much you want it to be a special material, it currently is not.

Synos, question, if it doesn't become light armor by your interpretation, does it still get the stat changes from mithral? Not arguing, just curious your interpretation.

The closest thing to rules the "order of operations" people have quoted is that you can't enchant something with armor enchants that isn't armor (even if it will be armor later). Nowhere in the rules you have quoted does it say that the order of operations come into play when determining statistics... It also doesn't say anything about armor enchantments overwriting the statistics of the armor being enchanted. In fact, in order to make anything from a special material, you have to determine the base statistics first, then apply mithral modifiers to it, despite not being made in that order. As you like to point out OVER and OVER again, you can't apply mithral to already made armor... My point has never been that you have the order the armor gets made wrong, simply that that order doesn't change how you stat the item and nothing in the rules says that order changes how you stat the item. You are completely nullifying the rules presented in Ultimate Campaign that have been quoted numerous times stating you CAN change the base material for specific magic items. If we were forced to follow your poorly interpreted order of operations ruling for all specific magic items, changing base material would never have an effect.

I fully understand that many people don't want this in their game. No one here is trying to say you HAVE to allow it. I can even see SOME of the arguments against it (like maybe it wouldn't end up as light armor, for example) having a valid point. I have said it over and over again: Both sides are making an assumption of what Celestial Armor (and Plate) are to come to their conclusion. The assumption of the "Yes" crowd is based off something James Jacob's has said, but it was also several years ago and it was in a discussion where people were complaining because they thought it was a special material and the pricing didn't add up correctly under that assumption. I doubt JJ realized he was plugging one whole to make another 4 years later when he said that, and it could change, since his forum posts are not considered official rules by any means. In fact, I have also said I doubt Mithral Celestial Armor is something they ever intended, and would not be surprised to see an official FAQ or Errata concerning it in some way. (which we aren't likely to get if everyone arguing this for 7 pages is so arrogant to think they are so obviously correct they won't FAQ the thread...)

My problem is coming from the people claiming because an item gets made in a specific order, you can't apply special material modifiers to it. Its a perversion of the rules, plain and simple. You won't even acknowledge that the way you are twisting the rules completely nullifies an entire mechanic. Literally ALL special materials could not be applied to any specific magic items under your rules. That is flat wrong. The only rules you have linked are just saying you can't enchant a lump of metal with armor special abilities, not that armor enchants overwrite the stats of armor its applied to. This interpretation of the rules doesn't just effect this one case of Mithral Celestial Armor, but every single case of changing a magic item to a special material.

"You could then just apply the Celestial Armor magic to Plate armor instead of chainmail and end up with full plate as light armor." I suppose you mean breastplate, as there isn't something called "plate armor" in the game.

But a celestial breastplate is simply a reskinned Celestial armor using a breastplate instead of a chain mail.

Abut your claim that there isn't a "celestial armor" enchantment. Very well, if the reduction in encumbrance isn't determined by an enchantment it is determined by special materials, so you can't apply another special material to that armor. Simple, don't you think?

I was referring to Full Plate, not a breastplate...

And what I was saying about there not being a "celestial enchantment" was there aren't generic rules written up that specify what it does. I was not saying it is a special material. That is putting words in my mouth (and a reach at that).

There is nothing in the rules for crafting magic items or for changing the material of magic items that even brings up order of operations. Literally nothing. If there was, one of you guys would have posted it in the last 3 pages you have been claiming it.

And the problem you keep having is you are treating the description for a magic item as though it is the description of the magic that made the item. "Celestial Plate" is a specific item that has had some sort of magic done to it, not the magic itself. Or are you actually trying to claim you could apply Celestial Plate Armor to padded armor, or a shirt, or a rock, and you always get +3 Full Plate with X stats? The description given for Celestial Plate Armor is the description of the finished product, just like the description of Mithral Full Plate of Speed is a finished product. It doesn't tell you what the process to get there was at all in the description. The only reason we can say for sure what happened to Mithral Full Plate of Speed to give it the stats it has, is because we have other rules that tells us what Mithral does specifically. There are no rules like that for the magic involved with Celestial Plate or Celestial Armor, so you can't say that the magic "turns the stats into X no matter what they were before". You can't say for certain what would happen if you applied the magic involved to a breastplate, or banded mail, or anything else, because they have not told us what it does, only given examples of 2 items.

How are you not getting this?
Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate are finished items that have had some magic done to them. There is no information telling us what that magic does. Anywhere.

Also, I have to point out, Gauss and Aelryinth, neither of you have pointed out ANY rules that support your argument, you just keep making the same argument with nothing to back it up. The rules for changing the base material for specific magic items, howerver, has been quoted multiple times in this thread already, do we need to do it again?

Also, As Marshmallow pointed out when someone first brought up the idea that the magic for Celestial Plate turns the target armor specifically into Medium armor, and doesn't drop the weight class of the armor. You could then just apply the Celestial Armor magic to Plate armor instead of chainmail and end up with full plate as light armor. If you claim it works one way for one of them, then it works that way for the other, and honestly, that is FAR more broken than what we have been suggesting...

In truth, its obviously more likely that there is one magic that drops the armor by a weight category. What else, specifically, it does, is a bit muddy, but it does alter the armors "similarly". Ultimately, still, we just don't know. Until Paizo says something, we can't know for sure.

+1 Peet. I think you summed up my thoughts perfectly... (although, doesn't mithral drop ACP by 3, not 2, so you actually run into 0 ACP with the full plate version as well?)

You guys keep looking at the description for Celestial Plate and deciding that it is the description for "Celestial Enchantment" and that is leading to false conclusions about what the magic does. We don't know what the magic does, because it never tells us. We only know what 2 bits of armor that have had the magic applied to it ended up as.

At best, the arguments against this working RAW only prevent Celestial Plate from becoming light armor when made of Mithral, not the stat adjustments from Mithral being applied (which seems like a bigger problem to me). Although, using the 2 examples we have, the stats might be slightly less than just adding them together since celestial armor seems to roughly half the ACP and ASP, and celestial plate does the same. So maybe you end up halving the stats already reduced by Mithral. We can't say for sure, because they have not told us what the magical enhancement does.

Sure, RAI, I doubt they had this in mind, because as Peet pointed out (along with many others previously, including myself) this combination is over powered. It fully makes sense to not allow it in your games since it could destroy balance. Wizards or Sorcerers in Full Plate with zero penalties at the cost of 1 feat is insanity. I just hope when they do FAQ or Errata this, they do it well. Personally, my hope would be for them to either say its already made of Mithral (or other special material, like maybe Celestial Mithral, but that is sort of already a thing from Rite Publishing...) or write up exactly what the Celestial Enhancement does (considering its applied to 2 different armors and alters them in different amounts). We are just guessing at what they intend to be possible until then.

Finally, the "order of operations" argument is really grasping at straws. The only possible way the argument makes sense is if we had a description for a Celestial enhancement that we can apply to any armor, and that description states that the end stats are X and the armor becomes Y weight category no matter what it started out as. We have no such description. It doesn't exist. Without it, trying to single this one item (two technically, but everyone seems to be ignoring celestial armor here) out as being uncraftable (or at least that the extra cost of material is wasted because it can't impact stats. To me, that might as well be uncraftable) is ridiculous. Saying you can't make this item from mithral because of order of operations would also mean you can't make any item out of any special material because of order of operations. There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support the idea. There are however rules in place for making items out of special materials. There are also rules for altering a specific magic item to get something new by changing the type of item or the base material. I have pointed this out multiple times. The rules I am referencing have been quoted in this thread more than once by Marshmallow. Every time, you just make the same claims with nothing to back them up. Its fallacy for the way you want to run things, not rules.

Wraith - First off, the quote wasn't very helpful since I never said "some stuff which has already been answered" so i am not sure what you are referring to... Second, what about Celestial Armor then? Celestial Plate is the only bit that is not pathfinder, its a paizo published 3.5 item. Celestial Armor, however, has been published for pathfinder in Ultimate Equipment... Ask the GM for approval is true of any custom magic item, that isn't an answer.

Gauss, you missed the point entirely. There is nothing that says that Celestial Plate (or Celestial Armor, for those of you that will just say, "oh it doesn't matter, its a 3.5 item"...) ignores the base material of the item anymore than a +1 enhancement does. So, with your logic, Mithral Full Plate +1 is uncraftable as well (or you could, but would end up with normal +1 Full Plate stats). Hell, Mithral Full Plate in general would be uncraftable, since you can't start with Full Plate made of nothing and add mithral to it (Mithral Full Plate is NOT made by "... add[ing] Mithral to non-magical Plate Armor" as you mentioned. I assume that was poor wording and you meant that you can craft full plate out of mithral instead of steel)... The order it gets made doesn't have any effect on how you apply stats (do you have a single quote from the books that supports this, btw?)... Mithral gives a set of modifiers that you apply to armor statistics. You always apply the Mithral modifiers to some sort of "already made" armor. That doesn't mean you are adding mithral after the armor gets made.

Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate are specific armors that have had magic applied to them. There are no rules for what that magic is, just 2 examples of end results. You are making the assumption of what that magic is and what it would do to an item. I don't see how that isn't clear. You have no more right to say you are following the rules explicitly than I do, because you are assuming information that is not given to us. You're right, this is the Rules Forum, which is why I have pointed out multiple times that the Rules don't have enough information for a definitive answer in EITHER direction. Its a little frustrating that you feel your assumptions on the matter are RAW, when they are just assumptions. If this was "simply how the rules worked" there wouldn't have been 4 pages of people discussing how it worked with several people on both sides before you shared your thoughts on the subject.

Also, there are rules in place for creating specific magic items out of a different base material to get different stats (marshmallow quoted above a specific wood shield being made of steel instead). There are even rules to change the base item to something new (the example quoted earlier on by marshmallow was turning a specific magic dagger into a rapier with the same effects but different damage die and threat range etc). First, obviously, those rules aren't stating that, in universe, someone took the item and just changed it from wood to steel or from a dagger to a rapier. They are guidelines for making a custom item. Yes, custom items require DM approval. In fact, I would bet those rules are there just as much (if not more) for the DM to make something unique. Obviously, those examples stated above are not suggesting that the end result has the exact same stats the the specific item listed in the CRB "because magic". They are not suggesting that you build a rapier, then apply the specified magic effects to it, and you end up with a d4 damage die and 19-20 threat range because the specific item referenced is a dagger. What would be the point of adding rules to change things if the end result will always be the same?

Gauss... By your logic, you could not make a set of +1 Mithral Full Plate (or any specific magic item...), because +1 steel plate armor has a set of stats assigned to it (instead of modifiers) and because you can't retroactively apply mithral to a set of +1 steel armor "because you don't make it in that order". That just isn't how stats for magic items are done. You don't apply them in the order it has to be made...

Unless you have some specific part of Celestial Armor (or Plate) that explicitly states the material from which it is crafted gets wasted or altered to become something new in the process, then your argument doesn't work. It just doesn't.

The two are special materials. And the rules state:

If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.

Celestial isn't an enchantment like fortification, but a changing of the materials.

We are also talking about semi artifacts. There is not ability to make them, not in pathfinder. They are only linked to heroes of the lawful good plane.

If we allow Celestial Mithral than why can't we also have Celestial Mithral Demon Rhino Hide Armor?

There is nothing about Celestial Armor (or plate) that states that it is simply a special material. In fact, all the armors that are a special material (like Dwarven Plate, which is 2 items below Celestial Armor in the link below) specifically state "... is made of ..." in their description which is nowhere in the description for Celestial Armor.

There is the ability to make them, there are construction requirements and cost right on the PRD for Celestial Armor. It is also not listed as a "semi artifact" but rather listed as a "specific armor". (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/armor.html#celestial-armor)

Trying to say that you can't make a specific magic item out of a different base material actually goes against the rules quoted MANY times in this thread that say you can do exactly that.

I would also point out, those guidelines aren't just there for a player wanting to get a really sweet new piece of gear, but also for DMs creating a campaign from nothing; wanting to set it apart and offer their players something they haven't seen before.

I am sure it has been said, but the rules on customs are only guidelines.

It goes on to note that abilities, and spell effect, and enchantments, should be carefully considered. A constant Bless effect, is not equal to a constant True Strike effect, even though they are both first level spells.

Also, it notes how to estimate these costs, and does not note it as a hard formula.

So, you have to compare this custom magic armor, to existing magic armors, and try to estimate an appropriate price.

The end price is subject to DM approval.

So, in theory, you could have a set of Mithral Celestial Plate armor, but you have to realize custom magic guidelines, are just that.

Guidelines.

Too often I see PCs taking the formula for estimates, and forgetting that is all it is.

An estimate.

So, when it comes to custom magic items, a Mithral Celestial Plate armor, is no different than a Ring of Truestrike, in that they both need DM approval.

Yes, very true. And given that the end result of Mithral Celestial Plate would end up being a very powerful item, I could understand the cost being significantly higher. I could also understand the DM that just doesn't allow it. I haven't been arguing these rules as a means for players to usurp their DM, that is nonsense. Part of why I have continued discussing it beyond the point I came to my conclusion is because everyone agrees the DM gets final say, but many people seem to think the item is just flat out not allowed no matter what and the DM allowing it to exist at all would be on par with him deciding that vorpal effects happen any time the weapon hits (something clearly NOT in allowed in the rules). There is plenty in the rules to support this item existing. You have to make some assumptions about what isn't written to determine what the stats would be, and there are many logical conclusions you could draw from even just a couple assumptions one way or the other, and without more information from Paizo, no one can say the other party is just flat out wrong.

[...] the armor is still a chain mail or a full plate, and the mithal modifier is applied to the chain mail stats or the full plate stats, so the mithral effect overlap and don't stack.

Also, nowhere does it say mithral changes stats from the base armor and not the stats the armor actually has. At best, this argument would say it gets the stats from mithral, but still only counts as medium because mithral is dropping full plate (a heavy armor) down to medium. Which is ignoring the fact that nothing says that Celestial Plate is considered heavy armor in any way at all...

So wait, you are saying that "treated as medium armor" with absolutely zero examples of when it isn't treated as medium armor, is completely different from "treated as medium armor in all ways"? Making a statement and not having any exceptions implies the "in all ways".

Also, the order the armor actually gets made doesn't actually effect the order you apply stats, unless the magic applied to it would remove the effects of the material. There is no evidence of this. They have not given us the effects of the magic enhancement of Celestial Plate or Celestial Armor and stated "it changes armor into x no matter what it originally was". They have given us 2 final products and what their stats are. I agree that isn't enough information to extrapolate the enhancement out and apply it to different armors like half plate or a breast plate, however, they also didn't tell us that the enhancement ignores what it was made out of and always turns into the same thing. Also, trying to claim that it doesn't work "because you don't build it in that order" would also not allow you to make mithral full plate at all, since you don't start with steel full plate and transmute it to mithral... Your own post stating the order you "make the armor in" starts with steel full plate then you add mithral. That isn't how it is actually crafted, just how you determine the stats, because you apply the modifiers to the stats. With Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate, you are given a set of stats that you can then apply modifiers too. You even admit you could make adamantine Celestial Plate, so the order of operations obviously doesn't matter...

The problem here seems to be whether you can gain the benefits of Mithral on top of the benefits of Celestial, not whether you can make it. Most people saying no, seem to be saying more because its a bit of a broken combination and they don't believe that to be intended rather than the rules stating that it isn't allowed, usually just reverting to the stacking rules (which don't really address this issue). If its a stacking issue, where is the line drawn? Can you not use any effect that alters the things mithral already alters? There really isn't a rule that states an magical effect can't effect an item because it already has a physical effect that is similar. If you halve something's weight and make it easier to use, and then had a way to halve it again, would it not become even easier to use?

As for trying to sweep the problem under the rug by saying "this isn't a pathfinder item", what about Celestial Armor which was printed in pathfinder books? Are you saying we can Mithral Celestial Armor?

Yes, there are assumptions being made on both sides, which is something all the nay-sayers seem to be forgetting. You can't say it breaks any rules without making assumptions as to what it is because we don't have enough information. You can't assume exactly what the magical effect does based on 2 examples of finished products. (i exclude the shield because it has extra effects and has more spell requirements to craft).

P.S. I am very curious to hear whether you all think Celestial ARMOR can be mithral or not... And you can't default back to "well it doesn't matter because its a 3.5 item" since its paizo published in a pathfinder book...

You guys keep bringing up the "order of operations" for making magic armor, but that only matters if you are operating under the assumption that celestial armor physically changes the base material into something new via some sort of transmutation magic. The fact that you make it out of mithral first, then apply magic to it, does not effect how you determine the stats. The armor with the stats is Celestial Plate, then you apply the mithral modifiers to it. That is how adding mithral to something works. You start with the stats for the item you have, then apply mithral to it. Making mundane mithral full plate, you don't craft steel plate then mithralize it, but when determining the stats, you start with full plate, then add mithral modifiers... One item has stats, the other has modifiers to those stats. You can rule it how you like in your home games, but you can't claim the rules are crystal clear against this working.

There is no rule, thats the whole point everyones been trying to make, other than: Ask your GM

If there is no rule saying you can't do it, and that is everyone's point, then why are there so many people saying that, per the rules, you can't do it?

First, that isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is getting heavy armor down to light armor.

Second, the reason people aren't flagging the OP is that 95% of the people in the thread know the answer: its a custom magic item, ask your GM.

First, how is that the biggest problem? 10ft faster move speed is more important than getting 9 AC from armor with no penalties for not being proficient with it? Especially considering the proficiency requires 2 feats, since no matter how you slice it, you need medium armor proficiency to use it without penalty. So, are you saying that you can't Mithral Celestial Plate, but you CAN Celestial Armor because one starts as heavy armor and dropping down to light is too much of a drop? So 10ft of faster movement is a much bigger concern than bypassing 2 feats? Honestly, everyone seems to have a hang up about the terms "heavy armor" turning into "light armor" and aren't actually looking at what you get from it...

Second, "ask your GM" isn't an answer if someone is wondering what to do in a game they are running. That is a very poor bandaid to cover the rules not being very clear. Sure, it works fine if the person asking is playing in a campaign, but the answer doesn't work at all if they are running the game. I don't know why everyone seems to assume everyone asking a question or looking for an answer in the rules forum must be a player (and honestly, many seem to think they are idiots that can't read, simply because they don't already agree with them).

Also, a very similar problem comes from applying Mithral to Celestial Armor, which is in published pathfinder materials, and the 2 are very closely related, and giving an answer to one would very likely answer the other.

I know this isn't RAW, but how do you guys feel about the following from a balance standpoint?

Look at adding mithral to celestial as trying to half a half. You don't get the benefit of halving the original, and therefore get half the benefits (I know this is a stretch for rules and logic). IE, Mithral Celestial Plate would be +7 max dex, -2 check penalty, 15% spell failure, requires medium proficiency, but counts as light for movement. This way, the check and spell failure are the same as celestial armor. Max dex is one worse, but you would get 3 more ac from armor. So, with exceptional dex, you gain 2 ac for 11,600 gold compared to celestial armor. You could also do the same with the celestial armor and get +9 max dex, -1 check penalty, and 10% spell failure for 4000 gold.
(NOTE: I rounded down for the armor check penalty because I feel like part of the check penalty comes from a lack of ability to move and not just the weight. I am iffy on if that is the right call for the chainmail version, since it says it can be hidden under cloths easily, but for plate that makes perfect sense considering you still have long, solid plates that would restrict movement slightly. Also, if you don't round down, then mithral celestial armor still runs into the 0 check penalty problem - why do you care if you are proficient or not if there is no check penalty?)

I feel like that isn't all that terrible balance wise and makes for a nice homebrew compromise. You are skipping the biggest problem (imo) of mithral celestial plate which is having a 0 check penalty and almost no spell failure.

P.S. I feel it is a travesty that this is such a hotly debated topic, and only 2 of us have marked the original post as FAQ...

The overarching point is that "Celestial" doesn't provide one specific subset of benefits. So you really can't draw any uniform conclusions. If every piece of "Celestial" armor behaved the same way, you might be able to infer something that specific. Since they don't, you can't.

Well, the Armor and Plate can be boiled down to a particular effect. It might be a bit screwy, but: +5 to max dex, reduce check penalty by 50%, and reduce spell failure chance by 50% rounded to nearest 5% increment (in player's favor). The shield is a bit screwy, but the shield also requires different spells to create than the armor so could be considered a deviation from the norm.

If, as I think I have demonstrated we must, the magic of the 'celestial' enchantment process also converts the base material of the armor into something else, then it is extremely likely that it would do this no matter what the base material originally was. Steel Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, Gold Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor, and Mithral Masterwork Plate would become regular celestial armor.

That is a great way to explain why it can't be done, and would likely be my ruling (I came to the same conclusion earlier) in a game I was running. Unfortunately, it is still making an assumption from the flavor description of the item.

The quote is from Special Materials section. First paragraph.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials

Celestial (imbued gold/silver) is a different material than mithral. Full stop. Done.

Mitrhral is only lighter and more nimble in comparison to steel, not different materials, different materials have different attributes and you can only get one property.

Funny, I don't see "Celestial (imbued gold/silver)" on the special materials page...

Also, I have to agree that there are definitely RAW to support this working... Think of it like this:
You have 2 blocks of metal, 1 ft along each side. One weighs 40 lbs, the other weighs 20 lbs. You have a spell that makes a block of metal super shiny, and cuts its weight in half. If you cast the spell on both blocks of metal, one is now 20 lbs and the other is 10 lbs. That logic could be applied to the armor in question, and would be allowed under the rules.

There are obviously differing opinions on how the rules were intended. I don't see how saying that the rules allows this is a logical fallacy, as someone mentioned above, at all. Do you need GM approval? Yes, just like with any other custom magic item. That doesn't mean you can just tell someone that is asking if this is supported in the rules that they are RAW "up to GM". What if the person asking IS the GM? Honestly, the best reason I have seen for why it shouldn't work is simply that it is too powerful / cheap. Just because its a broken rule, doesn't mean it isn't there, and unless they come out and specifically say SOMETHING, you can't say that it breaks the RAW. It may not be RAI, but until they tell us, we can't know that.

Both sides of the argument are making some sort of assumption to come to their conclusion. At the moment, the only thing close to an authority on the subject has stated that Celestial gets its properties from magic and NOT the material. That means the material could be changed to get more benefit. This is the assumption marshmallow (i think, i don't want to put words in their mouth) is using to say that RAW supports light celestial full plate.

...

With the information given, it is possible to make Celestial Armor that is made from Mithral Fullplate by RAW. No one is contesting that. What it's statistics are is the topic at hand here.

I agree, and was trying to point out that there just isn't enough information to say definitively what would happen.

I was also giving my interpretations of it (although I didn't know about the shield...)

It would be approximately a CR 1. Look at the XP totals. 3 CR 1/3 creatures is 405 xp. A CR 1 encounter is 400 xp. If you want to throw a CR 3 encounter at the party, it should add up to 800 xp worth of monsters. a CR 1/3 is 135 xp, so you would need about 6 of them (its technically 810 xp, but that is close enough).

That is the best way to look at it. The table for multiple monsters = CR + # gets screwy when dealing with CR < 1 in my experience.

The reference to enlarge person eludes to the fact that the target of the magic can't be harmed by it, but it also clearly states the thing confining its growth could be harmed. (if the target of the spell makes its strength check, it would break out of whatever is limiting its growth, I would say that definitely would cause harm)

That being said, the argument that the spell isn't designed to be able to inflict damage is a pretty good argument. I have had DMs that are very anal about that, and I have had DMs that let players be creative with things and let that stuff work if players find a way.

What spell are we talking about using here? Is it Shrink Item? It has a duration, so saying "you don't have line of effect" doesn't really end the discussion, since it will expand to normal size after a certain amount of time. Although, it says they turn back if tossed onto any solid surface, so I am not sure if that means if you drop the item on accident, does it turn back to normal size? That makes it difficult to prepare into a meal, but does open the door for hilarity when you try and sneak an item out by making it big and it falls out of your pouch right in front of the person you are stealing from...

In my opinion, there isn't enough information to come to a rock solid conclusion. It seems like there are RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate being light armor; there are also RAW to support Mithral Celestial Plate to exist, but the Mithral is wasted money and its medium armor.

For me, there isn't enough information about what Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate is. JJ says its a magic effect. That makes it sound like an enchantment you could apply to any armor, and therefore be treated 2 levels lower with Mithral. In that case, there isn't enough information to determine what that enchantment does, we only have 2 examples of final products from the enchantment. Then he also mentioned that Celestial Armor is a specific item. Then, its unknown how much of it actually does come from magic and how much comes from a special material, so changing the material would be difficult to determine what benefits that would confer. Hell, it could be argued that the base material doesn't matter, and the process of making Celestial Armor or Plate actually physically changes the base material into a new material unique to Celestial Armor.

For your campaign, there are definitely rules to support either side. I think that is why people keep saying "ask your DM". Sure, that doesn't answer the question, but without more information, nothing really does.

I know this is an old thread, but some things still bother me...

As far as I know, both lead blades and impact cause the weapon to be treated as one size larger than it actually is for the purpose of damage. Neither effect changes the actual size of the weapon.

As a result, casting lead blades on an impact weapon would have no effect, since it simply duplicates an ability the item already has.

This seems to be the best explanation of why they don't stack.

First of all, the people comparing this situation to bull's strength spell and a belt of giant's strength seem to be completely ignoring the fact that both the spell and item in that scenario give enhancement bonuses. Impact and leaf blade don't give named bonuses.

The official answer in the FAQ bothers me because if you can't stack a weapon magic effect with any spell used (or could be used) to create it, then why does the haste effect have a disclaimer in the wording for it? I agree that impact and leaf blade don't stack, for the reason quoted above, but that FAQ answer, for me, just brings up many more questions...