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So with the Technology Guide out, it's really got me wanting to see other genres done in Pathfinder. So what are your wants in a possible (but totally speculative) Ultimate Technology,?
I'd like to see the book separated into these chapters :
Primitive Era: Stone Age and Bronze Age adventuring, with rules for low magic, sword and sorcery, Hellenistic, and sword and sandal gaming. Themes would include low magic, tribalism and animism, survival, and humans transcending from nomadic tribes to sedentary civilizations. Or on the opposite side, high magic with demigods roaming the world doing wild things. Ancient astronauts, cities of wonder that are destined to sink from their hubris, living gods.
Post-Medieval Era: Renaissance through Victorian and Edwardian and ending just during the Interwar period. Classics such as Steam Punk, Gaslight Romances, Pulp Stories, Early Soft Science Fiction, and Sword and Planet. Themes such as the difference engine, the march of industry, eugenics, imperialism, nationalism, exploration, and weird science.
Modern Era: Postwar Modernism to the Information Age. Noir, Dieselpunk, Atompunk, and Contemporary Era genres. Would deal with themes of paranoia, nuclear technology, war, and such.
Future Ara: Beyond the modern era. Science Fiction of all types, from Hard to Soft, Cyberpunk to Post Apocalyptic. Human transcendentalism, exploration, rights of non-humans (robots), oppression... sky's the limit on this one.
So, what ideas do you have for an expanded Pathfinder?
I'd like to see both eras and advice on how to manage technology in a campaign. Probably including alternate proficiencies based on era.
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Of course, the future era chapter needs to have a statement to the effect that there is no final limit to where technology can go -- otherwise, its first negative comment is going to be "What? So X will never be developed?"
I actually think there is enough material there in the OP ideas for multiple hardcover books. Certainly you could do a full book called "Steampunk Adventures" or "Science Fantasy Adventures" or "Post Apocalyptic Adventures"
Personally, I would like to see special archetypes to allow existing classes to "fit" into different settings better. Maybe new classes that fit into the themes *cough*artificer*cough*
I'd like to see both eras and advice on how to manage technology in a campaign. Probably including alternate proficiencies based on era.
I agree. Something akin to the Technologist feat but for different eras. To the point where cavemen will have issues crafting steel weapons from the Medieval Era.
Of course, the future era chapter needs to have a statement to the effect that there is no final limit to where technology can go -- otherwise, its first negative comment is going to be "What? So X will never be developed?"
Good point.Future Era would probably be the largest section, given how wide a range it covers. Could have advice on expanding the future tech while covering a great deal of things.
I actually think there is enough material there in the OP ideas for multiple hardcover books. Certainly you could do a full book called "Steampunk Adventures" or "Science Fantasy Adventures" or "Post Apocalyptic Adventures"
Personally, I would like to see special archetypes to allow existing classes to "fit" into different settings better. Maybe new classes that fit into the themes *cough*artificer*cough*
Perhaps. I think the book would be enough to cover the broad strokes of each genre and allow supplements and 3PPs to fill in the gaps. A weakness in broad strokes would be, in my opinion, no being able to discuss the classes and their changes depending on the genre.
yeah I guess my concern is that by throwing everything into one book, potentially you are diluting the content by not having room for everything else. Since different themes are going to require more work than others.
For instance, I think you legitimately need an entire book to really do a space fantasy setting, since there are tons of system you need to flesh out and build (space travel, starship combat, retooling classes so that they fit in a high tech, gun everywhere setting, maybe races, etc). We just got a 64 page setting book with nothing but technology, and even that was just scratching the surface
Whereas, I think a stone age setting really already has all the systems, items, and even most of the appropriate archetypes, etc built for it. It really in this case requires gm advice and maybe a few revised tables for things like settlements, crafting, etc.
So I guess...if I had my way:
Some sort of Advanced GM Guide/World Building Guide, that extensively covered how GMs could run a pathfinder game in a atypical setting, including new rules systems, etc. This would cover everything, from Stone age to galactic empire
And a series of books that would concentrate on focusing on the more popular and complicated types of setting, and which would be more player option focused.
So, for instance with high tech, The World Building guide would include the ship combat and piloting rules, and some basic ships of different capabilities. But a Space Fantasy Adventures would elaborate on those rules with a wider sampling of ships, and maybe more options to customize them.
Of course I admit that spreading this stuff out over multiple rule books might be a hard sell, but this is a wishlist after all.
Planes, trains, and automobiles;)
Steampunk
Modern Tech
Bio Tech
Future Tech
Primitive era
yeah I guess my concern is that by throwing everything into one book, potentially you are diluting the content by not having room for everything else. Since different themes are going to require more work than others.
For instance, I think you legitimately need an entire book to really do a space fantasy setting, since there are tons of system you need to flesh out and build (space travel, starship combat, retooling classes so that they fit in a high tech, gun everywhere setting, maybe races, etc). We just got a 64 page setting book with nothing but technology, and even that was just scratching the surface
Whereas, I think a stone age setting really already has all the systems, items, and even most of the appropriate archetypes, etc built for it. It really in this case requires gm advice and maybe a few revised tables for things like settlements, crafting, etc.
So I guess...if I had my way:
Some sort of Advanced GM Guide/World Building Guide, that extensively covered how GMs could run a pathfinder game in a atypical setting, including new rules systems, etc. This would cover everything, from Stone age to galactic empire
And a series of books that would concentrate on focusing on the more popular and complicated types of setting, and which would be more player option focused.
So, for instance with high tech, The World Building guide would include the ship combat and piloting rules, and some basic ships of different capabilities. But a Space Fantasy Adventures would elaborate on those rules with a wider sampling of ships, and maybe more options to customize them.
Of course I admit that spreading this stuff out over multiple rule books might be a hard sell, but this is a wishlist after all.
Those are all good points. Aside from advice on lower magic for some Stone Age settings, we do have what we need for such a setting. I think there is still enough stuff where it would warrant a chapter so perhaps the first chapter would include everything up till the Industrial Age. Then chapter two could focus on the Victorian Age through the Interwar Period, allowing for an expansion of the 'punks (steam, diesel, deck) as well as pulp fiction, sword and planet, and science fantasy.
I do agree that having multiple books could be a hard sale. On the other hand, it would be beneficial because it could allow GMs to pick which genres they want to buy, instead of getting a general book that only has broad strokes. On the third hand, doing this could result in cannibalized sales and splitting th player base.
It's certainly a tough one, but a general book with specific 3Pp books that expand on aspects may be the best bet alas.
Dieselpunk
i just want this, so much this.
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Dieselpunki just want this, so much this.
Mmhmm. Ever since I saw the Batman animated series from the 90's and the anime Metropolis, I've been in love with diesel/decopunk
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Feels like we want the same thing but with a different name :p
You know, as much as a massive fan I am for mixing sci-fi with fantasy, I'm not sure I'd use Pathfinder for games that have no fantasy elements in it at all. At that point, if I wanted to do pure, unadulterated hard sci-fi, I'd just use another system like Traveller or Eclipse Phase or a more generic ruleset like Savage Worlds.
Now something like Rifts, on the other hand, would be cool. I despised the Rifts ruleset but I think its setting is pretty cool, if only to get inspiration for my homebrew setting (which is essentially the Shadowrun universe, several centuries after a gigantic apocalypse reverted the world to a medieval civilization but still have all these high-tech stuff lying around).
Advanced Genre Guide does sound better but then again I can't stand the use of ultimate in product titles.
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You know, as much as a massive fan I am for mixing sci-fi with fantasy, I'm not sure I'd use Pathfinder for games that have no fantasy elements in it at all. At that point, if I wanted to do pure, unadulterated hard sci-fi, I'd just use another system like Traveller or Eclipse Phase or a more generic ruleset like Savage Worlds.
Now something like Rifts, on the other hand, would be cool. I despised the Rifts ruleset but I think its setting is pretty cool, if only to get inspiration for my homebrew setting (which is essentially the Shadowrun universe, several centuries after a gigantic apocalypse reverted the world to a medieval civilization but still have all these high-tech stuff lying around).
I'm of the opposite opinion, especially after the Technology Guide and multitude of 3PP companies that have made alternate genres out of the d20 system. I feel Pathfinder is robust enough to handle these rules additions with some work.
I think you could use the chassis of Pathfinder to build a system for more science fiction settings. There are just a lot of holes right now in the rules that make it difficult. So presumably Advanced Genre/World Building/Ultimate Tech would need to fill those holes.
It would be also nice to have some sort of rules or just advice on how to dial back/up certain elements. I feel a low/no magic space setting and a high magic/high tech setting are going to have very different problems and needs, mechanics wise.
I think you could use the chassis of Pathfinder to build a system for more science fiction settings. There are just a lot of holes right now in the rules that make it difficult. So presumably Advanced Genre/World Building/Ultimate Tech would need to fill those holes.
It would be also nice to have some sort of rules or just advice on how to dial back/up certain elements. I feel a low/no magic space setting and a high magic/high tech setting are going to have very different problems and needs, mechanics wise.
Definitely agree with this. 100 pages per era may barely be enough for detailed work, but would be good for laying the groundwork.
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As an aside, what is a good example of third party companies that do some of these genres? Like steampunk or future or my favorite dieselpunk.
All I want for Life Day is Thundarr's sunsword.
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As an aside, what is a good example of third party companies that do some of these genres? Like steampunk or future or my favorite dieselpunk.
For Steampunk the Pure Steam Setting is a most.
If you like magitech, go with Thunderscape.
Little Red Goblin Games produced the wonderful sci-fi setting Necropunk (though note it's more in the line of Dune than say Star Wars).
There is also a setting called Conquests of the Universe being made by Tripod that will be a space-opera setting with psionics (which I know you don't like greatly but the space rules should be worth it).
Broken Earth is a great setting to get a Fallout feel.
Also, Rouge Genius Games has a series of classes (with pulp rules) called the Anarchistic Adventures series. They also have a apocalyptic setting (someday) known as Warlords of the Apocalypse in development.
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Tech item ideas I'd like to see:
* Biotech! Both in the form of grafts and all sorts of other futuristic biotech items.
* Magitech! Blend magic and technology for items that share aspects of both
* Beam Swords!
* Steampunk tech
* Gonzo technological melee weapons: Drill Spear, Shotgun Knuckles, Gunblades (though ones that'd actually be useful as ranged weapons as opposed to the FF ones)
* Chainguns, Needle Guns, Antimatter Emitters, Acid-Sprayers
* Hardlight objects
* Mind-control/mind-reading machines, Memory-erasers
* White phosphorus, other chemical weapons
* Pharmaceutical poisons and drugs
* Nukes/Hydrogen Bombs (probably a tech artifact?)
* Sentry Turrets, Land Mines
On the classes/archetypes/class-abilities side:
* Artificer (either as a base class or, more likely/preferably an Alchemist archetype)
* Some manner of Robot/Clockwork/Golem building/summoning Summoner Archetype(s). Have a custom robot(or clockwork/golem) and build/summon other constructs!
* A Barbarian archetype that can be any alignment that uses drugs of some manner to chemically induce rage. I'd like to have an option for highly-lawful military types or lawful corporate goons to have rage-capable experimental soldier types that still behaved in-line with the organizational ethos when not actively in rage-mode.
On the 'I'd kind of like to see this, but am concerned how it would work out' front:
* Space Ships. I sort of fear for the mechanical result, though, since they'd be complex and I've never really liked the 3.5/PF vehicle rules.
I think that some of the other-eras stuff sounds cool, but I worry that it'd eat way too much into the pagecount here. I'd rather just have a book offering lots of new types of tech / options relating to them and let the various era-genres have their own support books.
As an aside, what is a good example of third party companies that do some of these genres? Like steampunk or future or my favorite dieselpunk.For Steampunk the Pure Steam Setting is a most.
If you like magitech, go with Thunderscape.
Little Red Goblin Games produced the wonderful sci-fi setting Necropunk (though note it's more in the line of Dune than say Star Wars).
There is also a setting called Conquests of the Universe being made by Tripod that will be a space-opera setting with psionics (which I know you don't like greatly but the space rules should be worth it).
Broken Earth is a great setting to get a Fallout feel.
Also, Rouge Genius Games has a series of classes (with pulp rules) called the Anarchistic Adventures series. They also have a apocalyptic setting (someday) known as Warlords of the Apocalypse in development.
I'll have to check those out. For the record, I do like psionics, just not spellpoints.
Shame there isn't more dieslpunk stuff out there.
Not listed among the power generators in the back of the Technology Guide as they are hardly advanced enough to be considered technological artifacts, I wonder what statistics and energy yield of a hydroelectric dam would be (along with possible construction cost)?
A full on Ultimate Technology guide would definitely need stuff going all the way from Stone Age all the way through super advanced tech. But that is the easy past.
What I really want is variant technologies. Biotech, grow your own living power armor. Arcane tech, what does a highly advanced magical society look like? Nanotech, because really it's damn near its own genre by itself. How about we go a little Eclipse Phase and download our minds, into a computer, a robot, a clone, a totally different body?
Personally I think technology probably should be rated on a 0-9 scale. We kinda have it now with the color scale, but that only applies to advanced tech and measure how powerful it is not how advanced it is. I think you should be able to define how advanced a civilization is on a 0-9 scale with 0 being caveman and 9 being the limits of our wildest imaginations.
A full on Ultimate Technology guide would definitely need stuff going all the way from Stone Age all the way through super advanced tech. But that is the easy past.
What I really want is variant technologies. Biotech, grow your own living power armor. Arcane tech, what does a highly advanced magical society look like? Nanotech, because really it's damn near its own genre by itself. How about we go a little Eclipse Phase and download our minds, into a computer, a robot, a clone, a totally different body?
Personally I think technology probably should be rated on a 0-9 scale. We kinda have it now with the color scale, but that only applies to advanced tech and measure how powerful it is not how advanced it is. I think you should be able to define how advanced a civilization is on a 0-9 scale with 0 being caveman and 9 being the limits of our wildest imaginations.
I like these ideas, especially the uploading of minds. The Technology Guild has devices that do that. I could see it so that there are no longer "base races" but robotic archetypes that can be reprogrammed to be faster or smarter.
The number system is a good idea. 5 could be standard medieval technology and from there, we can really expand the tech levels. 1 is Stone Age, 2 is Bronze Age or Rise of Civilizations , 3 is Classic Age, and 4 can be Iron Age. 6 would be Renaissance/Industrial Age, 7 would be Modern Age (from Interwar to Information Age), 8 would be Near Future Age (+200-300 years) and 9 is Far Future. With that, we can do sub genres that fit, from caveman to sword and sorcery to the different 'punks and futurism and pulp action. Would be awesome.
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The number system is a good idea. 5 could be standard medieval technology and from there, we can really expand the tech levels. 1 is Stone Age, 2 is Bronze Age or Rise of Civilizations , 3 is Classic Age, and 4 can be Iron Age. 6 would be Renaissance/Industrial Age, 7 would be Modern Age (from Interwar to Information Age), 8 would be Near Future Age (+200-300 years) and 9 is Far Future. With that, we can do sub genres that fit, from caveman to sword and sorcery to the different 'punks and futurism and pulp action. Would be awesome.
I think I would condense some of those and expand others. For simplicity I'd try to keep each period distinct in game mechanics terms.
0 Stone Age, obviously inferior equipment.
1 Bronze/Classical, there is a lot of gradiation, but especially in terms of personal weapons and armor not distinct enough to actually serve as different periods.
2 Iron Age/Medival, Iron and Steel are a big step up from bronze, but much like Bronze/Classical not really distinct enough to split up.
3 Renaissance, Firearms start to become a big deal here, which starts to really chance the tone of a setting.
4 Industrial, all sorts of big advances, but much more advanced firearms are the big thing that make this period so distinct.
5 20th Century, where we get modern style firearms, advanced machine guns, planes, automobiles, etc.
6 Digital Era, Where we are now. Computers become a huge deal and take over many facets of our lives. You have room to sci-fi it up a lot too with digital targeting systems on personal firearms, personal HUDs, etc, but much of this is quickly becoming reality.
7 Space Age/Near future sci-fi, Start really setting out into space an colonizing more of the Solar system. Probably see the introduction of personal laser weapons, or conventional firearms replaced by mass drivers like Rail Guns.
8 Far Future, all sorts of Sci-fi stuff, much of the Technology Guide stuff probably falls into this period, Interstellar Travel becomes practical, etc.
9 God-like tech, really the outer limit of our imagination. Interstellar teleportation, Controlled Singularities, Inter-Dimensional travel, time travel, Dyson Spheres. This is where you go crazy, but when looking at a comparable scale, this tech level is sitting right up there with the Wish spell.
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Those are good. Though one thing that we should remember is how to fit more esoteric tech that would be found only in fictional genres. So things from ancient magitech of Atlantis, or Steampunk airships, or Dieselpunk airships, or much of the technology seen in Wells and Verne books. I definitely want to see real-world technology as well as fictional technology to run really different and fantastical games.
Also my reason for combining Renaissance with Industrial is that we really have enough to run a medieval and renaissance inspired game honestly.
Primitive Era: Stone Age and Bronze Age adventuring, with rules for low magic, sword and sorcery, Hellenistic, and sword and sandal gaming. Themes would include low magic, tribalism and animism, survival, and humans transcending from nomadic tribes to sedentary civilizations. Or on the opposite side, high magic with demigods roaming the world doing wild things. Ancient astronauts, cities of wonder that are destined to sink from their hubris, living gods.
The rules in Ultimate Combat (Gladiator Weapons, Primitive Armor and Weapons, Performance Combat for gladiatorial games, Vehicles for chariots), Ultimate Equipment (Special Materials includes a section on primitive materials), Ultimate Magic (Words of Power), and Mythic Adventures can be used for pretty much all of this. You just have to make your own setting and apply restrictions on available material; Paizo isn't about to split its customer base by marketing any setting other than Golarion (and the associated solar system in Distant Worlds).
Post-Medieval Era: Renaissance through Victorian and Edwardian and ending just during the Interwar period. Classics such as Steam Punk, Gaslight Romances, Pulp Stories, Early Soft Science Fiction, and Sword and Planet. Themes such as the difference engine, the march of industry, eugenics, imperialism, nationalism, exploration, and weird science.
Again, existing rules can be used to cover this. Especially the firearm rules in Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Equipment (including any of the gun-using classes/archetypes from Ultimate Combat or other books) and some of the new classes in the Advanced Class Guide (investigator and swashbuckler work very well). Again, the setting and campaign restrictions are up to you, although a lot of the themes are readily included (another plug for Distant Worlds).
Modern Era: Postwar Modernism to the Information Age. Noir, Dieselpunk, Atompunk, and Contemporary Era genres. Would deal with themes of paranoia, nuclear technology, war, and such.
This could use some expansion, beyond the limited coverage of WWI Russia in Rasputin Must Die! and the Advanced Firearms in Ultimate Combat/Ultimate Equipment (which work for an "Old West" setting). You're pretty much forced to stop at a 19th-century (or very early 20th-century) type of setting.
Future Ara: Beyond the modern era. Science Fiction of all types, from Hard to Soft, Cyberpunk to Post Apocalyptic. Human transcendentalism, exploration, rights of non-humans (robots), oppression... sky's the limit on this one.
The Technology Guide can be used for a lot of this, along with the Numeria setting book (easily tweaked for a post-apocalyptic campaign), Distant Worlds, and the expected material in the Iron Gods AP.
Granted, in most cases the existing material just covers the basics and requires a lot of work from the GM. However, I'll repeat myself: "Paizo isn't about to split its customer base by marketing any setting other than Golarion," which a more detailed coverage of each of these could require.
stuff
While I agree that Pathfinder won't create new settings, a lot of the stuff mentioned already has a "place" For instance, Alkenstar is "steampunk land", Land of the Mammoth Lords is stone-age land, etc. You also have the various places in the Distant Worlds setting book, which run the gambit of technology, from high tech Verces, to 1800's esq Akiton tech
In other words, I don't really think you need to start from scratch with a new setting to design rules for different technology levels
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To further what Jawa said, no one is asking for alternate settings. Simply, we are looking for some basic groundwork and advice on running other genres and ages. In that way, they don't lose sales on Golarion products and 3PP can swoop in to provide more specific support. And I'm sure with how varied Golarion is, there could be a setting book that uses examples of each genre.
Primitive Era: Stone Age and Bronze Age adventuring, with rules for low magic, sword and sorcery, Hellenistic, and sword and sandal gaming. Themes would include low magic, tribalism and animism, survival, and humans transcending from nomadic tribes to sedentary civilizations. Or on the opposite side, high magic with demigods roaming the world doing wild things. Ancient astronauts, cities of wonder that are destined to sink from their hubris, living gods.The rules in Ultimate Combat (Gladiator Weapons, Primitive Armor and Weapons, Performance Combat for gladiatorial games, Vehicles for chariots), Ultimate Equipment (Special Materials includes a section on primitive materials), Ultimate Magic (Words of Power), and Mythic Adventures can be used for pretty much all of this. You just have to make your own setting and apply restrictions on available material; Paizo isn't about to split its customer base by marketing any setting other than Golarion (and the associated solar system in Distant Worlds).
Post-Medieval Era: Renaissance through Victorian and Edwardian and ending just during the Interwar period. Classics such as Steam Punk, Gaslight Romances, Pulp Stories, Early Soft Science Fiction, and Sword and Planet. Themes such as the difference engine, the march of industry, eugenics, imperialism, nationalism, exploration, and weird science.Again, existing rules can be used to cover this....
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Futuristic technology... cannot be denied from Golarion... if Numeria didn't make it clear for you all.
Modern tech... doesn't seem quite common, only appearing in "Rasputin must die", so to me, futur tech should just be the "next step" to follow.
For such a booklet, I'm with some of the other suggestions:
- Biological technology
- Magical technology
- Steampunk technology
Also:
- More vehicles... because the lack of them was weird
- Siege weapons
- Technological monsters; not just robots, but something else, similar to the Iron Gods' monsters