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Honestly, I find it funny when people go all " ROGUES ARE PERFECTLY FINE! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THE SUPER SECRET FORMULA!!!!"
I'm sorry... the rogue has been out FOREVER. They have been investigated from every angle and every possible build. When it is just about universally aknowledged that the rogue is sub-par in combat, there is a reason for that...
Honestly, I find it funny when people go all " ROGUES ARE PERFECTLY FINE! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THE SUPER SECRET FORMULA!!!!"
I'm sorry... the rogue has been out FOREVER. They have been investigated from every angle and every possible build. When it is just about universally aknowledged that the rogue is sub-par in combat, there is a reason for that...
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
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Attempting to optimized the rogue has consumed endless man hours of my life and has caused me to re-learn everything I understand about optimizing, the rules, the game, and life itself. At the end of the day though the only lasting lesson I learned was how to come to terms with failure.
Attempting to optimized the rogue has consumed endless man hours of my life and has caused me to re-learn everything I understand about optimizing, the rules, the game, and life itself. At the end of the day though the only lasting lesson I learned was how to come to terms with failure.
I had that feel many times, early in my career. I thought, "Monks are OP" in 3.5, and my illusions were scattered. I thought, "Fighter seems cool," and my innocence was broken. I dragged myself, limp but hopeful, to Barbarian, only to see my dreams burnt to ashes. It would be many years of bitter hate before the late run of 3.5 brought hope back to the ruined tatters of my dying soul.
Plus, a single sneak attack (from, say, a charging scout-archetype rogue) does 10d6 damage at level 20, for an average of weapon+35, about the same as the fighter.
A Fighter at 20th is getting +18 from Power Attack, at least +10 from STR, +4-6 from Weapon Training, +4 from GWS, and probably a few other bonuses, with the big kicker being that even though on the surface those numbers look kind of similar, the Fighter is multiplying that damage on every crit, unlike the Rogue, with a class ability that is auto-confirming his crits for him. This annihilates the Rogue's damage.
The fighter you describe is getting +38 to damage, which yeah, on a critical, does more. (Although the fighter is still only critting a moderate percentage of the time, and the fact that he's getting half as many attacks on a full-attack dampens the effects of those crits quite significantly).
ITW Feint requires you to give up your best attack (still not as good as the Fighter's, even with PA penalties) in exchange for a chance to get your sneak in and target a potentially lower defense (it won't be any lower at all for iconic enemies like golems and dragons). If you're thinking those feints have a chance to succeed though, that means you have at least a 13 Int and probably invested in CHA as well putting the lie to-
No, it doesn't. It requires you to give up one of your two identical best attacks. The thing about feinting is that it's based on a skill rather than a stat; so without investing much at all in charisma, you can get items that boost it sky high for much cheaper—for instance, a +skill ring stacked with a circlet of Persuasion. And that's only if you don't have a way to get invisibility against your target, which is quite easy with about half the monsters you'll fight.
It doesn't make you less MAD when your lowered reliance on one physical stat means you are more reliant on two mental stats.
Yes, but a rogue isn't. 13 Int is easy to hit at start. If you really want to, you can buff Cha; otherwise, you only need dex, and a bit of constitution. Your massive reflex saves and Evasion means the fighter will be taking a lot more damage, needs more con (and needs dex more than you need str), as well as needing int if he wants to not be a pile of rocks outside of combat.
Attempting to optimized the rogue has consumed endless man hours of my life and has caused me to re-learn everything I understand about optimizing, the rules, the game, and life itself. At the end of the day though the only lasting lesson I learned was how to come to terms with failure.I had that feel many times, early in my career. I thought, "Monks are OP" in 3.5, and my illusions were scattered. I thought, "Fighter seems cool," and my innocence was broken. I dragged myself, limp but hopeful, to Barbarian, only to see my dreams burnt to ashes. It would be many years of bitter hate before the late run of 3.5 brought hope back to the ruined tatters of my dying soul.
Lol, it is funny seeing people who think the Warlock or Vow of Poverty was OP...
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Slayer has an archetype that can assassinate undead. Yeah rogue got outclassed pretty hard but at least, the two new archetypes and the new feats in the ACG actually open the possibility for a lot of fun on the rogue, yeah minor magic and the likes is not as useless anymore when you can swap spells.
Plus, a single sneak attack (from, say, a charging scout-archetype rogue) does 10d6 damage at level 20, for an average of weapon+35, about the same as the fighter.
A Fighter at 20th is getting +18 from Power Attack, at least +10 from STR, +4-6 from Weapon Training, +4 from GWS, and probably a few other bonuses, with the big kicker being that even though on the surface those numbers look kind of similar, the Fighter is multiplying that damage on every crit, unlike the Rogue, with a class ability that is auto-confirming his crits for him. This annihilates the Rogue's damage.
The fighter you describe is getting +38 to damage, which yeah, on a critical, does more. (Although the fighter is still only critting a moderate percentage of the time, and the fact that he's getting half as many attacks on a full-attack dampens the effects of those crits quite significantly).
ITW Feint requires you to give up your best attack (still not as good as the Fighter's, even with PA penalties) in exchange for a chance to get your sneak in and target a potentially lower defense (it won't be any lower at all for iconic enemies like golems and dragons). If you're thinking those feints have a chance to succeed though, that means you have at least a 13 Int and probably invested in CHA as well putting the lie to-
No, it doesn't. It requires you to give up one of your two identical best attacks. The thing about feinting is that it's based on a skill rather than a stat; so without investing much at all in charisma, you can get items that boost it sky high for much cheaper—for instance, a +skill ring stacked with a circlet of Persuasion. And that's only if you don't have a way to get invisibility against your target, which is quite easy with about half the monsters you'll fight.
...
It doesn't make you less MAD when your lowered reliance on one physical stat means you are more reliant on two mental
Um... what?
Last i checked, I tend to roll will saves and fort saves than reflex saves...
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.Honestly, I find it funny when people go all " ROGUES ARE PERFECTLY FINE! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THE SUPER SECRET FORMULA!!!!"
I'm sorry... the rogue has been out FOREVER. They have been investigated from every angle and every possible build. When it is just about universally aknowledged that the rogue is sub-par in combat, there is a reason for that...
How would it roll over against undead? They aren't immune to sneak attacks so I don't understand how it'd rollover against them.
The saves you're rolling depend on your GM, I suppose. My rogue's in a party that tends to fight a lot of wizards and Destrachans, and they hit the Fighter hard.
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
I thought undead were susceptible to sneak attacks in PF?
Ssalarn, builds or bust.
How would it roll over against undead? They aren't immune to sneak attacks so I don't understand how it'd rollover against them.Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.Honestly, I find it funny when people go all " ROGUES ARE PERFECTLY FINE! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THE SUPER SECRET FORMULA!!!!"
I'm sorry... the rogue has been out FOREVER. They have been investigated from every angle and every possible build. When it is just about universally aknowledged that the rogue is sub-par in combat, there is a reason for that...
Probably the Half-Orc/Orc Rogue who focuses on Non-lethal sneak attacks to some pretty good effect...
The saves you're rolling depend on your GM, I suppose. My rogue's in a party that tends to fight a lot of wizards and Destrachans, and they hit the Fighter hard.
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
I thought undead were susceptible to sneak attacks in PF?
Um... i tend to fight a lot fo wizards... and again, fort and will saves. Unless the enemy is a PC built Blaster caster, move every spell that targets reflex is kinda poor... things like Dominate Person are MUCH better...
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The saves you're rolling depend on your GM, I suppose. My rogue's in a party that tends to fight a lot of wizards and Destrachans, and they hit the Fighter hard.
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
I thought undead were susceptible to sneak attacks in PF?
He must be facing all the Wizard Liches, Vampire Sorcerers and those annoying Incorporeal undeads...well this part is mostly up to the dm, if he doesn't give you a chance to have a spotlight...yeah you are going to suck pretty hard.
He must be facing all the Wizard Liches, Vampire Sorcerers and those annoying Incorporeal undeads...well this part is mostly up to the dm, if he doesn't give you a chance to have a spotlight...yeah you are going to suck pretty hard.The saves you're rolling depend on your GM, I suppose. My rogue's in a party that tends to fight a lot of wizards and Destrachans, and they hit the Fighter hard.
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
I thought undead were susceptible to sneak attacks in PF?
Yep. Of course, that's true of pretty much any character.
Yep. Of course, that's true of pretty much any character.He must be facing all the Wizard Liches, Vampire Sorcerers and those annoying Incorporeal undeads...well this part is mostly up to the dm, if he doesn't give you a chance to have a spotlight...yeah you are going to suck pretty hard.The saves you're rolling depend on your GM, I suppose. My rogue's in a party that tends to fight a lot of wizards and Destrachans, and they hit the Fighter hard.
Well, I have a good build for my Rogue, it just rolls over and dies against Undead.
I thought undead were susceptible to sneak attacks in PF?
Oh made an evoker wizard who can do more damage with 2 spells than a fighter can with a whole full attack and crits? Thats cute... Adamatine Golem...
Oh, mostly because my build is dependent on Demoralize.
I could go Scout to cover my bases, I guess. Would need to try it out next time I roll it.
Oh, mostly because my build is dependent on Demoralize.
I could go Scout to cover my bases, I guess. Would need to try it out next time I roll it.
Oh! ok, I was thinkin it was the Non-Lethal guy who is pretty much one of the few rogues that are pretty good.
I could ignore half of the investigator's class features and it is still everything I want from a rogue and more.
Why is the non-lethal guy better than a lethal rogue?
Although I've seen some pretty excellent whip builds, which can deal non-lethal damage at will and flank from just about anywhere.
Meanwhile, an investigator gets fewer skills than a rogue, deals significantly less combat damage (unless you're fighting a single tough enemy that can't be flanked), and doesn't get any of the gameplay-changing Advanced Talents like Crippling Strike or Familiar.
Meanwhile, an investigator gets fewer skills than a rogue, deals significantly less combat damage (unless you're fighting a single tough enemy that can't be flanked), and doesn't get any of the gameplay-changing Advanced Talents like Crippling Strike or Familiar.
Studied combat is +10/+10. You can use it with deadly aim or power attack and get it to be +6/+18 which is hands down better than the rogues sneak attack in every conceivable way (it's also free until the second time and can be done as a swift action with one talent).
He's going to pump int, his skill points will outclass the rogues by leaps and bounds PLUS his skill list is actually better than the rogues.
Rogues have advance talents. Investigators have investigator talents (which are better) AND extracts (which further pump all combat abilities).
Why is the non-lethal guy better than a lethal rogue?
Although I've seen some pretty excellent whip builds, which can deal non-lethal damage at will and flank from just about anywhere.
Meanwhile, an investigator gets fewer skills than a rogue, deals significantly less combat damage (unless you're fighting a single tough enemy that can't be flanked), and doesn't get any of the gameplay-changing Advanced Talents like Crippling Strike or Familiar.
Pretty much this. You can do some rediculous damage with those two feats...
Combine with high Str and Power Attack and you can do some mad damage in a single attack. Especially when you combine with with Skirmashir to Do Sneak attack on a charge...
+15 BAB
+5 Weapon (times two if TWF but probably only +4 with agile or one +4 courageous/agile becomes pricey)
+10 dex
+1 competence Ioun stone
+1 morale Ioun stone (+3 with the courageous weapon)
+2 headband of Ninjitsu
+1 Weapon Focus (from rogue talent)
+1 luck stone (+2 with fate's favored) or
+3 divine favor (Ioun stone; +4 with fate's favored)
-2 Two Weapon Fighting= fate's favored / courageous / +5 weapons: +37/+32/+32/+27/+27
= greater invisibility wand: +39/+34/+34/+29/+29
= haste (boots of speed): +38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28
= haste(boots of speed) w/ Invisibility: +40/+40/+35/+35/+30/+30
= haste / invisibility / divine favor: +42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32
Average AC on a CR 20 is 36 meaning most of those attacks will hit.
All of those items are fairly standard except the Ioun stone to cast divine favor, but it's still worth the money.
This is a team game and with a little help from your team those numbers should easily get to a range that you hit more than you miss considering with all listed items you only fail on a 3 or less on the last iterative attacks or a 1 on the others. Could easily drop the invisibility wand if deemed too pricy for viability with only a small effect to the last attacks still.
Not that I'm boasting that rogues are amazing, but they can be built to work well enough. I'm sure there's other feats like desperate battler or items you can gain to boost this further.
Ok. Except all of that works for the Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist... Except the alchemist will have more feats since it's combat style doesn't have tons of feat taxes. And more gold because it doesn't need to buy two weapons. And a 24/7 Greater Invisibility. And free stat buffs. And free immunities. And...
Ok. Except all of that works for the Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist... Except the alchemist will have more feats since it's combat style doesn't have tons of feat taxes. And more gold because it doesn't need to buy two weapons. And a 24/7 Greater Invisibility. And free stat buffs. And free immunities. And...
If the alchemist is taking a combat style other than 2WF, he's dealing half as much damage with his sneak attacks, and that negates all the bonuses there. The Invisibility thing is nice, if you're planning on using rapid shot with a bow, but plenty of things see invisible at high level.
Sap MasterPretty much this. You can do some rediculous damage with those two feats...
Was not aware of Sap Master. Doubling your SA damage is pretty ridiculous, sure.
Studied combat is +10/+10. You can use it with deadly aim or power attack and get it to be +6/+18 which is hands down better than the rogues sneak attack in every conceivable way (it's also free until the second time and can be done as a swift action with one talent).
Studied Combat: This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) or until he deals damage with a studied strike, whichever comes first. The bonus on damage rolls is precision damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit.
An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an investigator's studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator's studied combat again for 24 hours
I'm sorry, but an effect only usable ONCE PER ROUND (at most) is in no-way comparable to the Rogue's sneak attack, which has the potential to hit up to 6 times per round for similar damage.
He's going to pump int, his skill points will outclass the rogues by leaps and bounds PLUS his skill list is actually better than the rogues.
Why shouldn't a rogue have the same int as an investigator, in the same point buy? Because if you want to do skills, the rogue gets more of them than the investigator, from a very similar list. Period.
Rogues have advance talents. Investigators have investigator talents (which are better) AND extracts (which further pump all combat abilities).
Give me one example of an Investigator talent better than Crippling Strike, because I can't think of any.
Everybody can get a familiar...easily. Eldritch heritage (Arcane) but well most people seems to forget that. Surprised that I didn't see many fighters/barbarian with their Boo (Go for the Eyes Boo!).
Sure, but that's a two-feat chain.
I'm sorry, but an effect only usable ONCE PER ROUND (at most) is in no-way comparable to the Rogue's sneak attack, which has the potential to hit up to 6 times per round for similar damage.
That's incorrect. Studied Combat lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Int Mod or sooner if you activate your Studied Strike(Which you don't have to since it's just extra damage).
A 20th Investigator using Studied Combat has a full +10 more To Hit than a Rogue does.
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Yeah but a Wizard has strong methods of preventing that from ever happening.
Why do I bring up mid levels? Well lets see. Personally I think it's an error to look at a class at only one portion of the game. Yes, A rogue does fine at level 1-4 and 16-20(because of Wealth). What about that middle section? Why do I care about it? Probably because classes should be solid at all stages of the game.
I'm checking my monster spreadsheets and it continues to show that the vast majority of high CR targets either have See Invisibility, True Seeing, or can cast spells to accomplish the same effect. Or Dispel Magic. Side note on saves, Fort and Will are easily the most important saves and a Rogue is weak on both. Wanna know how many high CR creatures have Fort or Will Save effects? Almost all of them.
It comes from being a high level character. You have a ton of wealth. So much so that with extreme levels of system mastery, you can avoid the pitfalls of the class you're playing as.
Exaggerations don't make good arguments. They make poor opinions and false statements. Thankfully, everything I've said is supported by the system itself.
Basically to say that most high level monsters don't have some method of seeing invisible targets, you'd have to avoid all dragons, outsiders, and the majority of spellcasting creatures.
The fighter you describe is getting +38 to damage, which yeah, on a critical, does more. (Although the fighter is still only critting a moderate percentage of the time, and the fact that he's getting half as many attacks on a full-attack dampens the effects of those crits quite significantly).No offense, but only a really crappy fighter at level 20 hits for +38 damage. Far as I can tell its relatively easy for a fighter to hit upper 50's or lower 60's for damage.
Base 17 STR +2 Racial
5 leveling
6 inherent (orc bloodline)
6 size (usable up to 17 minutes per day [170 rounds])
6 enhancementThats a strength of 42 for 170 rounds per day, usable in 10 round intervals. So basically 17 fights.
Strength of 42 is a +16 mod
16*1.5=24
24 (strength) + 4 (weapon specializations) + 6 (weapon training + gloves of dueling) + 5 (Weapon) + 18 (Power attack) + (since we're counting buffs) 4 (divine favor + fates favored) + 2 (base weapon damage)
That's a 63 base damage off the top of my head, all of it affected by crits (not to mention all crit mods are pushed upwards by 1)
If we really wanted to push this higher we could go into archetypes, which, depending on our choice, would give power attack a +6 more damage, and all attacks after the first +8 from strength, or we could just give him another attack at full BAB.
I'm about to put a fighter in the barrel that makes this even laughable.
I'm sorry, but an effect only usable ONCE PER ROUND (at most) is in no-way comparable to the Rogue's sneak attack, which has the potential to hit up to 6 times per round for similar damage.That's incorrect. Studied Combat lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Int Mod or sooner if you activate your Studied Strike(Which you don't have to since it's just extra damage).
A 20th Investigator using Studied Combat has a full +10 more To Hit than a Rogue does.
This is exactly what I said. Studied Strike, which is what y'all are comparing to Sneak Attack, only lasts one hit. Without Studied Strike, an Investigator's damage output is laughable compared to a rogue's.
Side note on saves, Fort and Will are easily the most important saves and a Rogue is weak on both. Wanna know how many high CR creatures have Fort or Will Save effects? Almost all of them.
What sort of Fort or Will Save effects, though? Yeah, the Will bit will mess up anyone, but fighters don't get out on that count. Aside from Petrification, I haven't seen any Fort-based attacks that don't depend on an attack hitting, and those (poison, etc.) are usually easier to recover from or less immediately deadly than breath weapons. A lot of this probably comes down to GM styles, though.
Basically to say that most high level monsters don't have some method of seeing invisible targets, you'd have to avoid all dragons, outsiders, and the majority of spellcasting creatures.
Which is why I generally consider it worth dropping three feats to get Improved Two-Weapon Feint (which is easy to do by level 8-9), in case you don't get to flank.
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Meanwhile, a fighter optimized just for damage, as you describe it, might well win DPR, if he's good at crits. But he's doing pretty much nothing else—which doesn't matter much at 20th level when you're constantly fighting gods and demons, but makes the rogue a lot more handy around level 5-10 when stealth and traps and social interactions and a dozen other things matter more.
I think a big part of the imbalance people see might be that, coming from 3.5, fighters got a ton of new tricks. Rogues got a few extra feats (and rogue tricks, which don't do much), and two-weapon feinting (worse than some of 3.5's splatbooks provided) and that was it.
I'm going to take this piece by piece here.
If the alchemist is taking a combat style other than 2WF, he's dealing half as much damage with his sneak attacks, and that negates all the bonuses there.
If the alchemist is a beastmorph than TWF is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, but an effect only usable ONCE PER ROUND (at most) is in no-way comparable to the Rogue's sneak attack, which has the potential to hit up to 6 times per round for similar damage.
What on earth are you going on about?
Studied combat lasts for rounds so however many full attacks you need.
Studied combat can be brought up as a move action, or a swift action at 5th because you're not a silly investigator and took Quick Study at 5th.
If you do use studied strike (and some consider it a trap anyway) and don't manage to kill that target you can bring it back up with a point of inspiration.
Now studied combat/strike has no positional nor status modifiers to it. Your opponent does not have to be flat footed, your opponent does not need to be flanked. You get half a smite/challenge by spending a swift action, pointing at a guy and giving them the best Undertaker at Wrestlemania glare you can give them.
EDIT: Ah I see now. You're only thinking of the strike. You're not thinking of the ability that goes with it. No, you can't separate combat/strike. They both go together.
Why shouldn't a rogue have the same int as an investigator, in the same point buy? Because if you want to do skills, the rogue gets more of them than the investigator, from a very similar list. Period.
2 more to be exact. And why doesn't the rogue get more INT? The better question is why is he getting more int?
When an investigator gets more INT he gets more extracts, higher DC's on his abilities, longer loitering time on his studied combat, more inspiration to use on a variety of things (including for free on a number of skills).
His very similar list is literally missing only three skills: Climb and Swim (which the rogue gets) and Fly. These three, incidentally, can often just be bypassed/handled by a number of extracts at the investigators disposal.
Incidentally this all allows him to make up for deficiencies in other scores. More inspiration allows him to pass more saves, hit more attacks, deal just that extra point of damage you need to finish the enemy.
In short: INT is the investigators main stat. HE can make a very respectable brawny fellow but I'm tinkering with builds that only start with maybe 13-14 strength purely for power attack qualifications.
Rogues...really don't have an incentive to have more INT. If anything they have incentive to dump it since even at a 7 int they have a respectable 6 skill points per level which they can get more by being human or taking favored class bonuses. Their skills, outside of knowledges, lean more towards DEX and CHA than INT.
And let's not get started on Bards.
Give me one example of an Investigator talent better than Crippling Strike, because I can't think of any.
Combine Extracts, Eternal Potion, Elixir of Life, Empathy, Sapping Offensive.
Sapping offensive is a subtle one I'll admit. But I appreciate any ability which simply "turns off" a creatures reach advantage.
Sure, but that's a two-feat chain.
That gives back the equivalent of two feats and adds more on top of that mind. People tend to forget the familiar provides Alertness and often the equivalent of Improved Initiative (that stacks with it). Worth it if you want it.