I read the description of this class ability for the Warpriest and it doesn't make much sense to me: at first level this ability allows the WP to designate a weapon he has weapon focus for to change its damage and base it on his level. Seems neat, right? Unfortunately for medium creatures that fixed damage "based on his level" is a grand total of 1d6. So this improves the damage of a very limited selection of weapons (basically your fists... but then why are you not playing a brawler or a monk?).
So why would someone designate a weapon with low damage as his sacred weapon? Why not go with the 2 handed sword (2d6 damage) or the dwarven waraxe (1d10) from the start?
Of course damage grows at 5th level it becomes 1d8, at 10th 1d10, at 15th 2d6 and at 20th 2d8, besides from lvl 4th the ability starts giving the WP some neat tricks. But this does not change the fact sacred weapon seems to do nothing for the first 4 levels(unless you want to try some very odd kind of weapons).
So here's my question: am I missing something or misinterpreting how the ability works? And if not do you think that allowing the sacred weapon damage to be added to the normal weapon damage would have been too much (perhaps starting lower, from 1d2 or 1d4)?
As it is sacred weapon could just have been added at level 4 and no one would have noticed the difference imo.
Sacred Weapon can be used on any weapon that you have weapon focus for, as well as your deities favored weapon. Since there are no limits to how often you can do this, you can use different weapons as sacred weapons. Mostly a war priest will have a better weapon, but there may be circumstances were he may not have access to them. If you deity has a poor weapon like a dagger for a favored weapon you can use this were taking other weapons may not be possible. You will probably be able to take a dagger just about anywhere, but carrying a great sword to the kings court will probably not be allowed. It also can be used to increase your unarmed damage if your deity has unarmed as a favored weapon.
I also find that it allows a Warpriest later down the road to ignore the concept of needing to rely on a weapon's damage dice to determine what weapon he should use.
It's not exactly a strong effect in the early levels, since as you said, it only becomes a 1D6. However, so too does the Monk's Unarmed Strike, and that only goes up as they level (this actually scales exactly the same as far as I know). But by the endgame, you can have two 15-20/X2 weapons dealing 2D8 damage a crack, making the Crit Fishing option much more attractive, since most Crit Fishers usually have garbage damage dice.
It also makes going shields a more attractive option, since you can snatch Bashing and the like to make your shields be doing up to 4D8 per swing.
So is sacred weapon as an ability, meant for players who want to be the WAR priest of a deity with a bad sacred weapon?
If that's the case I must say I find the ability too narrow in scope.
And why would I waste weapon focus on a bad weapon type? You don't get weapon focus on your deity favored weapon. You can choose to do that or you can choose a good weapon. Yes, you get sacred weapon effect on your deity favored weapon AND on the weapon you designated for focus BUT if you happen to follow a deity with a bad weapon type you get the sacred weapon effect improving your weapon damage to 1d6 at the expense of losing weapon focus (designated on an actually good weapon) or to put it on a bad weapon you will slightly improve.
This doesn't sound like a well designed ability imo.
The war priest class keeps to the cleric BAB progression and only allows the war priest to cast spells up to 6th level. So it's not going to be as good as either of the parent classes at what they are best at, and that's PERFECT (we don't want a new class to edge out the old). My problem is the war priest doesn't seem to be that good at doing HIS thing. I don't think that allowing the class to cause more damage using sacred weapon would have broken it, on the contrary it would have given the class a cool niche (yes I don't hit as well or as much as the fighter but I can hit as hard! Yes, I can't cast as well as the cleric but I do far better in close combat).
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Sacred weapon exists to be the excuse to nerf Warpriests into not having full BAB.
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Some people really want to use their deity's favored weapon. I'm sure there are plenty of Desnans who would love to play with Starknives but still have bigger damage dice, for example.
The fact remains that you don't need to use the Sacred Weapon damage if you don't want to, so there's nothing stopping you from using a Greatsword and continuing to do 2d6 every swing.
Some people really want to use their deity's favored weapon. I'm sure there are plenty of Desnans who would love to play with Starknives but still have bigger damage dice, for example.
The fact remains that you don't need to use the Sacred Weapon damage if you don't want to, so there's nothing stopping you from using a Greatsword and continuing to do 2d6 every swing.
More power to them of course, yet it feels really narrow in scope if that is what the designers were aiming for. As for your second point, yes you can focus on a 2 handed sword but then sacred weapon does exactly nothing for you up to level 4 when the other powers kick in. Feels like a waste of an ability. I understand it was nerfed from playtest, maybe it was nerfed too much?
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More power to them of course, yet it feels really narrow in scope if that is what the designers were aiming for. As for your second point, yes you can focus on a 2 handed sword but then sacred weapon does exactly nothing for you up to level 4 when the other powers kick in. Feels like a waste of an ability. I understand it was nerfed from playtest, maybe it was nerfed too much?Some people really want to use their deity's favored weapon. I'm sure there are plenty of Desnans who would love to play with Starknives but still have bigger damage dice, for example.
The fact remains that you don't need to use the Sacred Weapon damage if you don't want to, so there's nothing stopping you from using a Greatsword and continuing to do 2d6 every swing.
Meh. It doesn't bother me too much, because the only Warpriest that I've had any real interest in is the Sacred Fist, which is just straight up good.
I've never had problems playing Paladins (LG + code isn't so bad as long as you try to play a nice guy) or Inquisitors (which are awesome~) so the Warpriest was pretty much just trying for a slightly different version of the same niche. Only in the Sacred Fist does it actually move in to fill a gap that hadn't ever been really well-done before. And that archetype doesn't even HAVE Sacred Weapon.
Didn't you get full BAB with it in the play test?
Yes, you did; you treated your Warpriest level as your base attack bonus for attacks made with the enhanced weapon.
Devs said it was too powerful for Warpriest to have because it outshone the classic Fighter.
Then again, a lot of things do. So Paizo is citing something that 90% of classes can do just as effectively, which they unwittingly approved of them doing, and encouraged moreso with each splatbook they printed out; but when it came to the Warpriest, it wasn't okay?
A bit ass-backwards for my liking; especially considering that as a 10th level Fighter who gets Divine Favor as an SLA 3/day, I am only starting to equal the party's Barbarian, who isn't even hardly optimized right now. But what can you do, it's Paizo, balance is not one of the things they're meant to do with these publishings.
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I'm not sure Warpriest is strong enough any more...but I've gotta go with Paizo on 6 level casting + Full BAB probably being too strong, especially with other buffs available as well. That's pretty nasty.
Now, I think they probably should've seriously jacked up the 'adding Enhancement' factor of Sacred Weapon and done some other adjustments when they droped it, but dropping it does make some sense.
I really didn't mind the BAB change when I mulled it over, but I feel like they could have put the design space medium BAB freed up to better use - full progression LoH/Channel Energy, 1 minute Sacred Weapon duration, more interesting Sacred Armor options etc.
I also really, really think it's a shame it didn't get a tweaked spell list. Raiding the paladin or inquisitor list for some martial buffs that "clerics don't get two levels earlier" would have really helped it set itself apart the way the hunter did.
You actually missed a pretty important line. From page 61 of the ACG.
The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made. (If the weapon’s base damage exceeds the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn’t apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that only deal energy damage.
Edit: so while your question is still valid it is important to see that thus ability adds versatility like many others are saying. Carry around a Kukri that has the big crit range and 1d6, eventually more.
Hence why it's a useless class feature till high levels for a lot of warpriests.
I'm not sure Warpriest is strong enough any more...but I've gotta go with Paizo on 6 level casting + Full BAB probably being too strong, especially with other buffs available as well. That's pretty nasty.
Now, I think they probably should've seriously jacked up the 'adding Enhancement' factor of Sacred Weapon and done some other adjustments when they droped it, but dropping it does make some sense.
Unless the Warpriest was specializing in Firearms, it wouldn't have been overkill. With 3/4 BAB and full buffs, he's comparable to a Fighter in DPR, which, as we've shown, is actually the 2nd worst in the game by the numbers. (But for Paizo, it's perfect, given their viewpoint on Fighters and Rogues.)
Even with full BAB optimization, they'd compare to an average Barbarian or Paladin in terms of overall power. My level 10 Fighter who gets 3/day Divine Favor with +3 to Hit and Damage per attack is only equal to a hardly-optimized Barbarian of the same level.
I suppose I wouldn't be upset with it if they were given stuff to accommodate for that BAB loss. (They get it by 20th level, but it's game over at that point...) Most classes generally got super self-buffs, or abilities that make it easier to hit, for example targeting Touch AC, or came with effects that don't require hitting AC, such as Save-or-Suck effects on their abilities they can utilize.
But they weren't. The best thing they got was a removal of Charisma being a required stat for the class, and a slight re-arrangement of Blessing effects. For many, that's not exactly a fair trade off for losing full BAB, and an extra attack per round by the endgame.
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You actually missed a pretty important line. From page 61 of the ACG.
The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made. (If the weapon’s base damage exceeds the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn’t apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that only deal energy damage.
Edit: so while your question is still valid it is important to see that thus ability adds versatility like many others are saying. Carry around a Kukri that has the big crit range and 1d6, eventually more.
Nobody missed that. It's just that in that case, it's a wasted ability. If you're using something that's not a dagger, you're sitting on a dead ability until 4th level.
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Just because all characters do not get equal benefit from sacred weapon does not mean it is useless. I can see a couple of instances where it will be very useful. A DEX based war priest wielding two daggers would get a lot of benefit from sacred weapon. Also a deity with an exotic ranged weapon like hand crossbow, or shuriken would also do well. Another weapon that will benefit from it is any kind of whip. A war priest of Calistria wielding a scorpion whip could be very effective. The point is not all characters will get the same benefit from sacred weapon.
Just because all characters do not get equal benefit from sacred weapon does not mean it is useless. I can see a couple of instances where it will be very useful. A DEX based war priest wielding two daggers would get a lot of benefit from sacred weapon. Also a deity with an exotic ranged weapon like hand crossbow, or shuriken would also do well. Another weapon that will benefit from it is any kind of whip. A war priest of Calistria wielding a scorpion whip could be very effective. The point is not all characters will get the same benefit from sacred weapon.
The only key benefit Sacred Weapon grants in regards to the damage dice is that the PC doesn't have to pick a weapon that has both good damage dice and the critical multipliers and misc. statistics.
Problem is, at 1st level, unless you're using a Dagger, Cestus, or some other similarly-weak weapon, it won't do you any good until later in the game, and that's high leveling right there.
I feel it's a pretty decent class feature still and you can build some good characters and, stepping away from optimization it can be a great rp catalyst.
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While there are several design decisions in the Warpriest that I disagree with, the Sacred Weapon die mechanics isn't one of them. It's not intended to be a DPS boost across the board, but rather an option that lets players who want to use thematically appropriate but mechanically inferior favored weapons do so without shooting themselves in the foot.
It opens up a lot of really cool character concepts that would otherwise struggle to make it out of the gate.
I'm not sure I'd describe it as the signature ability of the warpriest though - I'd say the signature abilities of the Warpriest are Fervor and Blessings.
[/quote=Kudaku]While there are several design decisions in the Warpriest that I disagree with, the Sacred Weapon die mechanics isn't one of them. It's not intended to be a DPS boost across the board, but rather an option that lets players who want to use thematically appropriate but mechanically inferior favored weapons do so without shooting themselves in the foot.
More elegant way of putting what I was trying to say.
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Unless the Warpriest was specializing in Firearms, it wouldn't have been overkill. With 3/4 BAB and full buffs, he's comparable to a Fighter in DPR, which, as we've shown, is actually the 2nd worst in the game by the numbers. (But for Paizo, it's perfect, given their viewpoint on Fighters and Rogues.)
Even with full BAB optimization, they'd compare to an average Barbarian or Paladin in terms of overall power. My level 10 Fighter who gets 3/day Divine Favor with +3 to Hit and Damage per attack is only equal to a hardly-optimized Barbarian of the same level.
Uh...check a DPR thread or three. Fighters are solid at DPR. Their issue as a class is their utter lack of anything else to do. Barbarians probably do have better DPR, and Paladins definitely do when Smiting, but that still puts Fighter right up there as one of the better DPR classes in the game. DPR is pretty much the one thing fighters don't suck at.
And a full BAB class with 6 level Cleric casting has more raw offense than basically anyone, not just more than Fighters. They'd be about on par with Barbarians at 1st (Divine Favor + Weapon Focus + Fate's Favored if they want it) and just get better from there. Plus 6 level prepared casting from an entire spell list.
I suppose I wouldn't be upset with it if they were given stuff to accommodate for that BAB loss. (They get it by 20th level, but it's game over at that point...) Most classes generally got super self-buffs, or abilities that make it easier to hit, for example targeting Touch AC, or came with effects that don't require hitting AC, such as Save-or-Suck effects on their abilities they can utilize.
But they weren't. The best thing they got was a removal of Charisma being a required stat for the class, and a slight re-arrangement of Blessing effects. For many, that's not exactly a fair trade off for losing full BAB, and an extra attack per round by the endgame.
This I agree with. The Warpriest suffers a lot from Inquisitor envy as it stands. It needed to be unambiguously better than that at combat if it was to be really competitive, given how vastly better the Inquisitor is at out-of-combat stuff.
Didn't you get full BAB with it in the play test?Yes, you did; you treated your Warpriest level as your base attack bonus for attacks made with the enhanced weapon.
Devs said it was too powerful for Warpriest to have because it outshone the classic Fighter.
Then again, a lot of things do. So Paizo is citing something that 90% of classes can do just as effectively, which they unwittingly approved of them doing, and encouraged moreso with each splatbook they printed out; but when it came to the Warpriest, it wasn't okay?
A bit ass-backwards for my liking; especially considering that as a 10th level Fighter who gets Divine Favor as an SLA 3/day, I am only starting to equal the party's Barbarian, who isn't even hardly optimized right now. But what can you do, it's Paizo, balance is not one of the things they're meant to do with these publishings.
House rule. That's what you can do. You can house rule it.
It really sounds more like an ability for an archetype than the base class.
Sacred Weapon became the Warpriest signature ability when the blog post said they dropped Full BAB because of it.
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Sacred Weapon became the Warpriest signature ability when the blog post said they dropped Full BAB because of it.
This blog? That's not what was said at all. What was said was:
The second round of playtest showed us some really interesting data. Everyone seemed in love with the class, which is certainly good, but our surveys also showed us that the class was now at the top of the power curve. After a number of internal playtests, it became clear that attacking with the full attack bonus of a fighter, combined with swift-casting a number of "buff" spells made the class a juggernaut. Since we really liked how the fervor mechanic worked, the sacred weapon rules had to change.
Bolding mine. So it was Fervor that killed the full BAB thing (whichwas a part of the Sacred Weapon rules) and is the Warpriest signature ability by this metric.
The purpose of the mechanic is so that you can have a WarPriest of Pharasma who can stay in theme and not suck. Yes I know it does nothing for you who picked an optimized approach and used a great sword. Other folks need to be served as well.More power to them of course, yet it feels really narrow in scope if that is what the designers were aiming for. As for your second point, yes you can focus on a 2 handed sword but then sacred weapon does exactly nothing for you up to level 4 when the other powers kick in. Feels like a waste of an ability. I understand it was nerfed from playtest, maybe it was nerfed too much?Some people really want to use their deity's favored weapon. I'm sure there are plenty of Desnans who would love to play with Starknives but still have bigger damage dice, for example.
The fact remains that you don't need to use the Sacred Weapon damage if you don't want to, so there's nothing stopping you from using a Greatsword and continuing to do 2d6 every swing.
On the contrary, I do not take an optimized approach. But when I think WAR priest I think at a follower of Gorum, Iomedae, Torag and the like FIRST (Phrasma to hunt undead? A niche, nice but meant to be more important for the class than the war priest of an actual war god?). So if, for mechanical AND thematic reasons I want to play a priest war priest of Gorum what does sacred weapon do for me? I already have a 2 handed sword as favored deity's weapon, I can choose a one handed weapon as focus for better defence and still being in theme (I'd say Gorum would approve of a huge war axe for example). Of course is nice that some deity's worshippers get a better favored weapon out of sacred weapon BUT was this so important as to dedicate the first 4 levels of the class to them and do nothing for anyone else?
I rolled up a lvl 1 Warpriest yesterday. I get what Sacred Damage does, but it's just very situational. I could see maybe making a new Divine spell that mirrors the ability, and not making it a class feature, but oh well. Just feels weird to have a codified class feature that only a tiny portion of characters will ever make use of.
Well sacred weapon also allows you to improve the weapon quite a bit for a number of rounds per day.
Starting from level 4
Well sacred weapon also allows you to improve the weapon quite a bit for a number of rounds per day.
Yeah, but even that feels like Sacred Damage was tacked on. You could have the same weapon enhancing ability just use "whichever weapon you chose Weapon Focus for" or something. Sacred Damage itself plays no other part in that, other than it also happens to be on the weapon you chose Weapon Focus for.
So if, for mechanical AND thematic reasons I want to play a priest war priest of Gorum what does sacred weapon do for me?
You can have a ranged weapon that really deals damage, for example. Just grab a free sling with some metal (Gorum likes metal) sling bullets and enjoy your level dependant damage die.
Or you choose armor spikes as sacred weapon so you can hurt your opponent when he grapples you. And besides Gorum likes armor spikes enough to have the spell Gorum's armor (renamed spiked armor on d20pfsrd) which turns a suit of armor into spiked armor for some time.
Every one and especially a warpriest of Gorum should know that it is important to have a backup weapon.
So if, for mechanical AND thematic reasons I want to play a priest war priest of Gorum what does sacred weapon do for me?You can have a ranged weapon that really deals damage, for example. Just grab a free sling with some metal (Gorum likes metal) sling bullets and enjoy your level dependant damage die.
Or you choose armor spikes as sacred weapon so you can hurt your opponent when he grapples you. And besides Gorum likes armor spikes enough to have the spell Gorum's armor (renamed spiked armor on d20pfsrd) which turns a suit of armor into spiked armor for some time.
Every one and especially a warpriest of Gorum should know that it is important to have a backup weapon.
But Warpriests are proficient with martial weapons... Why not just grab a bow?
But Warpriests are proficient with martial weapons... Why not just grab a bow?
Exactly... AND a warpriest of Gorum (or a cleric too imo) should want to deal with his opponents up close and personal...
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But Warpriests are proficient with martial weapons... Why not just grab a bow?
You might be a warpriest of Khepri, Lalaci, Pulura, or Wylgart - all have the sling as their favored weapon. Or you might be a player who thinks slings are neat but find it hard to justify using them when he could, as you say, take the mechanically far superior longbow. The longbow is still a better option, but Sacred Weapon really closes the gap between the two.
Again folks, it's meant to be an enabler for those deities that use favored weapons that work badly with a class who is expected to use weapons a lot of the time, not as a straight up "you do more damage with all weapons"-ability. If you're already worshiping a deity who offers an excellent favored weapon that's great! Enjoy your extra damage and revel in the fact that your base die is always going to be as good or better than the guy who's using a greatclub instead of your greatsword, and that you can use your Weapon Focus to pick up another weapon and do great damage with that too.
However it's when your deity has a favored weapon that's mechanically underwhelming (light hammer, whip, starknife, dire flail) or when you want to use a weapon for thematic reasons rather than mechanical reasons that Sacred Weapon really shines - it opens up a ton of character weapon options that are otherwise really hard to get off the ground.
I love Sacred Weapon. I'm using a short sword with weapon finesse, so I'm not that dependent on high strength.
But Warpriests are proficient with martial weapons... Why not just grab a bow?Exactly... AND a warpriest of Gorum (or a cleric too imo) should want to deal with his opponents up close and personal...
Sure you would want to, but to be unable to fight back should that be impossible would indeed be a bad thing for a gorumite. And a sling could be the weapon of choice BECAUSE the gorumite might not want to be seen carrying around a bow. Plus the sling always applies strength to damage without further investments.
But, as always, YMMV.
Unless the Warpriest was specializing in Firearms, it wouldn't have been overkill. With 3/4 BAB and full buffs, he's comparable to a Fighter in DPR, which, as we've shown, is actually the 2nd worst in the game by the numbers. (But for Paizo, it's perfect, given their viewpoint on Fighters and Rogues.)
Even with full BAB optimization, they'd compare to an average Barbarian or Paladin in terms of overall power. My level 10 Fighter who gets 3/day Divine Favor with +3 to Hit and Damage per attack is only equal to a hardly-optimized Barbarian of the same level.
Uh...check a DPR thread or three. Fighters are solid at DPR. Their issue as a class is their utter lack of anything else to do. Barbarians probably do have better DPR, and Paladins definitely do when Smiting, but that still puts Fighter right up there as one of the better DPR classes in the game. DPR is pretty much the one thing fighters don't suck at.
And a full BAB class with 6 level Cleric casting has more raw offense than basically anyone, not just more than Fighters. They'd be about on par with Barbarians at 1st (Divine Favor + Weapon Focus + Fate's Favored if they want it) and just get better from there. Plus 6 level prepared casting from an entire spell list.
I highly doubt that a Fighter can pull as much damage as a Barbarian, Inquisitor, Magus, or Paladin can without crippling the others in some fashion. Hell, it's even arguable that they can pull as much DPR as a Monk, and those guys have so much more utility and features in comparison.
The Warpriest, even with Full BAB, would not scale equivalent to a Barbarian in buffs and features alone when it comes to combat, and when it comes to anything Evil, the Paladin makes laps around the Warpriest since he gets a lot of the similar buffs. He actually gets buffs that the Warpriest could only dream of having. Tack on that they get an additional attack, and overall more hits/round, and you're looking at a fairly large DPR disparity.
A Magus or Inquisitor might be a fair comparison, though to be quite honest I don't think a Warpriest has the Nova power that the Magus can unleash, and an Inquisitor can use Bane and Judgements to his advantage on a level that a Warpriest's Blessings could only dream to accomplish, unless they're built super-niche enough to ignore some of the useless crap.
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Well sacred weapon also allows you to improve the weapon quite a bit for a number of rounds per day.Starting from level 4
Ok at level 1 it might be useless for many builds, but since it allows other to be viable (warpriest of iori ?), it is not really a big deal. At least from my point of view.
Unless the Warpriest was specializing in Firearms, it wouldn't have been overkill. With 3/4 BAB and full buffs, he's comparable to a Fighter in DPR, which, as we've shown, is actually the 2nd worst in the game by the numbers. (But for Paizo, it's perfect, given their viewpoint on Fighters and Rogues.)
Even with full BAB optimization, they'd compare to an average Barbarian or Paladin in terms of overall power. My level 10 Fighter who gets 3/day Divine Favor with +3 to Hit and Damage per attack is only equal to a hardly-optimized Barbarian of the same level.
Uh...check a DPR thread or three. Fighters are solid at DPR. Their issue as a class is their utter lack of anything else to do. Barbarians probably do have better DPR, and Paladins definitely do when Smiting, but that still puts Fighter right up there as one of the better DPR classes in the game. DPR is pretty much the one thing fighters don't suck at.
And a full BAB class with 6 level Cleric casting has more raw offense than basically anyone, not just more than Fighters. They'd be about on par with Barbarians at 1st (Divine Favor + Weapon Focus + Fate's Favored if they want it) and just get better from there. Plus 6 level prepared casting from an entire spell list.
I highly doubt that a Fighter can pull as much damage as a Barbarian, Inquisitor, Magus, or Paladin can without crippling the others in some fashion. Hell, it's even arguable that they can pull as much DPR as a Monk, and those guys have so much more utility and features in comparison.
The Warpriest, even with Full BAB, would not scale equivalent to a Barbarian in buffs and features alone when it comes to combat, and when it comes to anything Evil, the Paladin makes laps around the Warpriest since he gets a lot of the similar buffs. He actually gets buffs that the Warpriest could only dream of having. Tack on that they get an additional attack, and overall more hits/round, and you're looking at a...
I think the ability to buff as a swift action is very very good. This was one of the major complaints from my clerics players (all abandoned the class and changed characters at some point).
Well DPR is not really THE problem when you think fighter. And fighter DPR is more consistent than Barbarian rage or paladin smiting. It always works against any kind of opponent. Besides fighters do have better defences overall (if you choose the right feats of course) and that helps a lot.
That said I would change the way the fighter works because as it is he feels a bit too generic and giving him some damage and to hit perks ONLY HIM can get seems the way to go.
Unless the Warpriest was specializing in Firearms, it wouldn't have been overkill. With 3/4 BAB and full buffs, he's comparable to a Fighter in DPR, which, as we've shown, is actually the 2nd worst in the game by the numbers. (But for Paizo, it's perfect, given their viewpoint on Fighters and Rogues.)
Even with full BAB optimization, they'd compare to an average Barbarian or Paladin in terms of overall power. My level 10 Fighter who gets 3/day Divine Favor with +3 to Hit and Damage per attack is only equal to a hardly-optimized Barbarian of the same level.
Uh...check a DPR thread or three. Fighters are solid at DPR. Their issue as a class is their utter lack of anything else to do. Barbarians probably do have better DPR, and Paladins definitely do when Smiting, but that still puts Fighter right up there as one of the better DPR classes in the game. DPR is pretty much the one thing fighters don't suck at.
And a full BAB class with 6 level Cleric casting has more raw offense than basically anyone, not just more than Fighters. They'd be about on par with Barbarians at 1st (Divine Favor + Weapon Focus + Fate's Favored if they want it) and just get better from there. Plus 6 level prepared casting from an entire spell list.
I highly doubt that a Fighter can pull as much damage as a Barbarian, Inquisitor, Magus, or Paladin can without crippling the others in some fashion. Hell, it's even arguable that they can pull as much DPR as a Monk, and those guys have so much more utility and features in comparison.
The Warpriest, even with Full BAB, would not scale equivalent to a Barbarian in buffs and features alone when it comes to combat, and when it comes to anything Evil, the Paladin makes laps around the Warpriest since he gets a lot of the similar buffs. He actually gets buffs that the Warpriest could only dream of having. Tack on that they get an additional attack, and overall more hits/round, and you're looking at a...
You have never seen an optimized fighter in action have you?
An Optimized fighter can easily top DPR charts... Heck, Archer fighters can 1-2 round a balor easy.
The problem with fighters is... pretty much EVERYTHING ELSE. If the answer is not, hit it with a stick, then they really don't know what to do...
You have never seen an optimized fighter in action have you?
An Optimized fighter can easily top DPR charts... Heck, Archer fighters can 1-2 round a balor easy.
The problem with fighters is... pretty much EVERYTHING ELSE. If the answer is not, hit it with a stick, then they really don't know what to do...
Actually, I find that "Hit it with a stick" is not a good solution to the Archer's problem. After all, +5 Adaptive Seeking Longbows aren't exactly cheap. Try "Throw some smaller sticks at it through a bow" instead.
Actually, I find that "Hit it with a stick" is not a good solution to the Archer's problem. After all, +5 Adaptive Seeking Longbows aren't exactly cheap. Try "Throw some smaller sticks at it through a bow" instead.You have never seen an optimized fighter in action have you?
An Optimized fighter can easily top DPR charts... Heck, Archer fighters can 1-2 round a balor easy.
The problem with fighters is... pretty much EVERYTHING ELSE. If the answer is not, hit it with a stick, then they really don't know what to do...
Now I am tempted to do that... build a Improvised fighter who uses bows... as melee weapons... I wonder if that +5 still counts if you hit them WITH THE BOW...
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I highly doubt that a Fighter can pull as much damage as a Barbarian, Inquisitor, Magus, or Paladin can without crippling the others in some fashion. Hell, it's even arguable that they can pull as much DPR as a Monk, and those guys have so much more utility and features in comparison.
They do more than an Inquisitor or Magus most of the time (both can pull ahead by burning several resources, but only for a few rounds at a time, and only by a little), and better than Paladins vs. non-Evil foes (who aren't exactly uncommon). I'm not arguing Fighter is the best thing ever (they aren't), but they're pretty close to top tier in damage specifically (with only Barbarian unambiguously better).
Again,if you don't believe me, take a look at some of the DPR threads.
The Warpriest, even with Full BAB, would not scale equivalent to a Barbarian in buffs and features alone when it comes to combat, and when it comes to anything Evil, the Paladin makes laps around the Warpriest since he gets a lot of the similar buffs. He actually gets buffs that the Warpriest could only dream of having. Tack on that they get an additional attack, and overall more hits/round, and you're looking at a fairly large DPR disparity.
Uh...if the Warpriest counts as full BAB, nobody gets an extra attack. And sure, Paladin will pull ahead vs. Evil targets (like they do every other class) but not by much, and 6 levels of buff spells leave Barbarians choking on dust in many ways.
A Magus or Inquisitor might be a fair comparison, though to be quite honest I don't think a Warpriest has the Nova power that the Magus can unleash, and an Inquisitor can use Bane and Judgements to his advantage on a level that a Warpriest's Blessings could only dream to accomplish, unless they're built super-niche enough to ignore some of the useless crap.
Oh, agreed. I'm not arguing the Warpriest isn't too weak. It is. I'm arguing that I don't think keeping full BAB was the right way to fix that problem.