Not really. Even as a rogue, if you go 2H and go str you'll be better off than going TWF and Dex, even when you do get full attacks.
That... doesn't seem true, at all. The damage a rogue gets per strike with sneak attack far outpaces anything a melee attacker can dump on with less than a dozen or so feats, and based on what I've played I can't imagine how a Strength-based 2H rogue could even approach the numerical damage output of the 2WF rogue (although sneak attacking with a reach weapon could be fun).
As for Deadly Aim: Read up on the battle of Agincourt. Historically, a well-aimed longbow shot could do more against a heavily-armored knight than most forceful sword swings. The feat that makes no sense to me is Manyshot, because you're firing two arrows and they're just as likely to hit (and get the same precision bonuses)
That is very conditional though. It requires to things:
1.) The opponent needs to either be flat footed or flanked. While feinting is an option, it is a bit hard with just 3/4 BAB.
2.) You need to actually get in a full attack while #1 is happening.
It all depends on how the GM plays it, really. I mean, if the rogue really IS that OP, then why should he have the enemy move out of the way, even if it requires an AoO. It would be less threatening than a sneak attack. This is a problem for all TWF builds, including rangers, fighters, etc.
Anyway, I just want to say- going DEX based is a poor choice for the rogue anyway, even if they are TWF. On a 20 pt buy, You can got with a strength build and still have room to get enough DEX for Improved TWF (greater is not worth it more just about anybody at BAB-12, so why go above 17 DEX?). If you have a strength build, you do not need finesse, you can just grab strength enhancements and have those apply to damage, and you have options like double weapons that would be poor on a finesse build.
Double weapons helps out with the problem of 'what to do when you can't get a full attack'. Since it can be used either as 2 weapons or 1 two handed one, you can just 2 hand it when you are doing standard action attacks or charges.
Craft Wondrous Item? That's only good for party boosting. For a casters the money is just money not going to undead hordes, sno-cones, and bribing outsiders.
Aside from making you get your primary stat enhancer much faster than you normally would, it also helps you build custom items which would be hard to get the normal way... like a Cloak of Resistance of the Mountebank +5. Ideal to get out of that one grapple that got through your normal defenses. Grantedly, Wizards and Arcanists can get out of that, but Sorcerers have it way more difficult.
divine protection is no way shape or form a must have feat, it does not make your character more powerful or able to do anything different. it can replicated for a few thousands in gold, even less if you craft wonderous item.
the feats on my list either make your character more powerful, are must haves or allow your character to break basic assumptions in the game.
divine protection does not do any of these things. all the hoopla about divine protection is that people are offended that a paladin ablity can be gain by another class. that is not reason for a feat to be labeled powerful.
P.S i did mean extra revelations, thanks for the correction.
You can't replicate Divine Protection through magic items. Making yourself basically immune to three of the most fundamental attack methods in the game is a huge advantage, because only characters which are not locked down contribute to party success. I am impressed how you still can miss such obvious a point although multiple people have tried to point it out to you.
Aside from self-nerf issues due to pride, I see no reason why any character with a positive charisma modifier and the other prerequisites would not take this feat as soon as he can.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
damage was always the one thing that archers have had consistent trouble with, since their damage per shot was usually fairly low and had trouble getting through DR. Deadly Aim helped with that.Really? Consistent damage is one thing they are good at. They're usually good at avoiding enemy ranged attacks, have high hit bonuses, and Damage Reduction is not nearly as much of a problem, because you can carry all different types of arrowheads with you. Where the melee guy curses loudly when he realizes the foe has Cold Iron DR, the archer just chuckles and switches ammo on the fly, even in the middle of a Full Attack. Which, odds are, he's going to get off before the melee guy has a chance to, since he doesn't have to close distance.Yes, they had consistent damage, but it was consistent low damage. As for your melee friend cursing at using the wrong weapon, not if it has a high enhancement modifier. A magic melee weapon bypasses Cold Iron/Silver DR at +3, Adamantine at +4, and all alignment based DR at +5. Unless the arrows you are firing are specifically +3 or higher arrows, the most your arrows will ever qualify to bypass the DR of is magic.
On top of that, melee characters are throwing around 2d6 base compared to your 1d8, assuming only Pathfinder material(3.5 brings this up to 1d10). Melee characters are also using a two hander in these instances, which means they are getting 1.5 times their strength to damage where you are only getting your regular strength, assuming your bow is Adaptive(which it better be). And then you add in Power Attack which gives a higher bonus to two handed damage than Deadly Aim gives to a bow.
...Just not sure how something like this can rank anywhere near the feats aimed at casters.I dunno, I see 3 caster-related feats up there and only 1 martial-related feat. You tell me if that counts as 'anywhere near' in your estimations.
Secondarily, you seem to be missing the point.
Um... what?...
On top of the fact that archers can drop more attacks a round than most melee, they have Clustered shot to laugh at DR... and you don't need enchanted arrows, you use an enchanted BOW....
Oh and come back to me in your DPR counts when you can attack after something moves away from you... or when a dragon plays SMARTLY and just kites you with fly by attacks and breath weapons...
And to top it off, ranged characters get MORE damange in because all of those flat bonuses? Yeah they apply to each shot... and they are shooting more arrows in a turn than your fighter is swinging his sword around in a turn...
Archery is THE BEST martial style there is.. bar none...
Yes, they had consistent damage, but it was consistent low damage. As for your melee friend cursing at using the wrong weapon, not if it has a high enhancement modifier. A magic melee weapon bypasses Cold Iron/Silver DR at +3, Adamantine at +4, and all alignment based DR at +5. Unless the arrows you are firing are specifically +3 or higher arrows, the most your arrows will ever qualify to bypass the DR of is magic.
First off, where are you getting this weird DR mechanic from?
Second off, what happens when the Archer uses a +5 bow and all his arrows get it?Third off, if that didn't work, what's stopping the Archer from buying a bunch of cheap alternate metal arrows and shooting them out his Bow of Awesome at almost no cost?
On top of that, melee characters are throwing around 2d6 base compared to your 1d8, assuming only Pathfinder material(3.5 brings this up to 1d10).
Ah yes, all melee guys wield Greatswords. That's good to know. There's only 1 melee weapon in the game, eh?
3.5 has a 2D6 ranged weapon. 3.5 doesn't care though, as it has much cooler enchantments for the weapons. It also has a Manyshot that doesn't suck, allowing you to basically Full Attack and still get your move.Melee characters are also using a two hander in these instances, which means they are getting 1.5 times their strength to damage where you are only getting your regular strength, assuming your bow is Adaptive(which it better be). And then you add in Power Attack which gives a higher bonus to two handed damage than Deadly Aim gives to a bow.
1k gold for adjustable Str rating. No big.
And then you add Power Attack, which reduces accuracy.That's all assuming your conditions. Now it's my turn...
High level ranged? I can get a +19 weapon to your piddly +10 melee weapon. That's +5 on the bow, with +5 more worth of mods (which might include an Alignment mod that is given to the ammo shot), then +1 on the arrows (minimum pre-req) with +9 worth of mods.
Where's your full attack on a move? Gotta pull out tricks to get Pounce. Archer shoots 2 at level 1 if he picked the feats. (By all means, bring up TWF for melee, please...)
Yes, lets add Deadly Aim on to that bad boy.
And then K177Y K47 just walks in and unloads a heap of salient points too. Thanks Kitty! I especially like the flying creature example. ;)
I'm fully aware archery is the best in Pathfinder,
But despite this, look at all those pro-melee examples as to why Deadly Aim is not a problem and is just as necessary as Power Attack! Thanks buddy! Why did you argue all that earlier just to say this now?
Thomas Long
I mean seriously, why would you spend 32k on 50 +4 arrows when you could spend literally the exact same amount for a +4 bow and have it apply to all your arrows. Not to mention the effects don't stack. Buying magic arrows literally seems like the joker tossing cans of gasoline onto the pile of money muttering its about sending a message.
You don't. Think like Green Arrow or Hawkeye. Your ammo is your 'tricks'. You get ammo for different situations and enemy types. Your base stuff all goes onto the bow. +5 is the obvious core of the weapon, and generally should be acquired ASAP. Speed is also a nice, reliable enhancement, and so is Holy.
Also, the effects do stack. The enhancement bonus doesn't. That's a minor, yet important quibble. This results in the Hawkeye/Arrow effect mentioned above... you have Seeking arrows for hitting those pesky invisible foes, Merciful ones for bringing foes back alive, various alignment shots, arrows that are basically a pile of Elemental D6's (aka "resistance finders"), and the like. Needless to say, though it can be expensive, you can easily have the must customizable, adaptable weapon in the game. And you don't even have to be standing right up in someone's face to full attack with it, either.
Yes, they had consistent damage, but it was consistent low damage. As for your melee friend cursing at using the wrong weapon, not if it has a high enhancement modifier. A magic melee weapon bypasses Cold Iron/Silver DR at +3, Adamantine at +4, and all alignment based DR at +5. Unless the arrows you are firing are specifically +3 or higher arrows, the most your arrows will ever qualify to bypass the DR of is magic.First off, where are you getting this weird DR mechanic from?
Second off, what happens when the Archer uses a +5 bow and all his arrows get it?
Third off, if that didn't work, what's stopping the Archer from buying a bunch of cheap alternate metal arrows and shooting them out his Bow of Awesome at almost no cost?On top of that, melee characters are throwing around 2d6 base compared to your 1d8, assuming only Pathfinder material(3.5 brings this up to 1d10).Ah yes, all melee guys wield Greatswords. That's good to know. There's only 1 melee weapon in the game, eh?
3.5 has a 2D6 ranged weapon. 3.5 doesn't care though, as it has much cooler enchantments for the weapons. It also has a Manyshot that doesn't suck, allowing you to basically Full Attack and still get your move.Melee characters are also using a two hander in these instances, which means they are getting 1.5 times their strength to damage where you are only getting your regular strength, assuming your bow is Adaptive(which it better be). And then you add in Power Attack which gives a higher bonus to two handed damage than Deadly Aim gives to a bow.1k gold for adjustable Str rating. No big.
And then you add Power Attack, which reduces accuracy.
That's all assuming your conditions. Now it's my turn...
High level ranged? I can get a +19 weapon to your piddly +10 melee weapon. That's +5 on the bow, with +5 more worth of mods (which might include an Alignment mod that is given to the ammo shot), then +1 on the arrows (minimum...
If you really want to go Hawkeye still of "arrow for every occassion" yoru best bet would be to go Wizard 1/Fighter 1/EK 5/AA X.
Arcane Archer gives your arrows a free Distance, X burst, and alignment. You then stack on all the other stuff on the bow. On top of that, they can drop spells on their Arrows (Anti-Magic Field on an Arrow is priceless), and they can create a arrow shoots through damn near anything and one that will hunt you down... regardless of where you are...
and then there is teh Fort Save or Die arrow which is fun to use when you know there is a caster above him xD(Phase arrow+Slaying Arrow or Seeking Arrow+Arrow of slaying as long as he has windows to his tower.
I've never understood the point of magic ammunition in pathfinder. Short of special abilities as a just in case measure, it seems to be flat out better to simply upgrade your bow.
Because some magic effects can stack. Buy 10 +1 Bane (Dragons), 10 +1 Bane (Evil Outsiders), and 10 +1 Bane (Undead) Arrows. Fire them from your +5 bow, and suddenly you're shooting +5 Bane Arrows, which act as +7 and deal +2d6 extra damage for a whole lot less than an epic +7 flaming frost bow would cost
|
Leadership is certainly powerful, but dependent on what the GM lets your cohort do.
Craft feats are even more reliant on a certain style of game. The level 7 wizard I am playing right now once had time to scribe a scroll. Yeah, one time I got to put a second level spell on a scroll, not bad for a feat you get at first level for free, but I would never take a crafting feat in that game.
Sacred Geometry is ridiculous in so many ways. I would never allow anything that broken (and potentially time consuming) in any game I run.
Divine Protection might not be the most powerful feat in the game, but it's far more powerful than any feat is meant to be. I have a couple characters that would dip into a divine spellcaster class just to qualify for it.
CRB, page 562, Overcoming DR. You'll find everything I quoted there.
A +5 bow doesn't allow regular arrows to bypass anything other than Magic DR.
That is not what it says there. A +5 weapon will overcome any damage reduction aside from damage type ones and of course epic and amount/- . There is no text which exempts bows from conferring that bonus upon their ammunition.
Wait, is Divine protection just spells? Because most of the nastiest things I've fought use Ex and Su abilities with saves.
Wait, is Divine protection just spells? Because most of the nastiest things I've fought use Ex and Su abilities with saves.
Nope, it's all saves.
If you really want to go Hawkeye still of "arrow for every occassion" yoru best bet would be to go Wizard 1/Fighter 1/EK 5/AA X.
I know, right? I was just talking about the weapon, didn't even get to class levels. There's just so much variety already there and we were just talking the gear!
I remember just having AA back in 3.5 for the free arrow enhancement buffs, using a bow and ammo with different specials. Bout the same now except it gives you the set specials instead.CRB, page 562, Overcoming DR. You'll find everything I quoted there.
A +5 bow doesn't allow regular arrows to bypass anything other than Magic DR.
Nothing, although I'd hate wasting that money.
Thanks for the reference! I'm so used to using the SRD to find things it's weird to break open the actual book.
Where does it say that about the Damage Reduction ignoring bit not applying to ranged weapons? It says "weapons", not "melee weapons" or "thrown weapons" or the like. Looks to me that, since it doesn't call out the ammo as being different, that it applies there too.The part you mention about ranged weapon ammunition exists only to show that even non-magic arrows fired from a magic bow count as magic for Damage Reduction purposes. This is a change from back in 3.5 where the ammo had to be at least a +1 magic arrow or it didn't count. It also mentions the alignment so that you know the ammo gets it too. It specifically doesn't mention material, so using a Cold Iron Bow doesn't make your shots count as Cold Iron.
Now, in my campaigns, this is houseruled back to the 3.5 way. You want to bypass metal or alignment DR? Need that on your weapon. Want to bypass metal or magic DR with arrows? Arrow better have that metal arrowhead and/or be a least a small bit magical. But according to Pathfinder, there's no reason at all not to immediately get up to the +5 enhancement bonus ASAP on any weapon, ranged or melee.
It's an example, don't pretend that it was anything other than such. It's not like it still isn't one of the best, if not the best, two hander available. Where I said "greatsword" insert "melee weapon of choice".
It was an example. Don't pretend it was a good one. Again, an extra single die of difference wont be that big at high levels. At low? Obviously it's nice. But at such low levels the melee guy will be one-shotting most foes anyway. By the time he gets his iterative attacks is where it matters (the archer was long since shooting multiple shots anyway).
Besides, I'd pick the Falchion for better Crit Fishing. ;)What ranged weapon had 2d6 in 3.5? The highest I can think of is 1d12, the Bone Bow. If you're thinking of the Greatbow, it is only 1d10. Trust me, I'd actually like to know as my Paladin's Lesser Bracers of Archery give him proficiency with any bow.
Here I have a facepalm moment, it was the Bone Bow. The closest thing to the 2D6 was one of the heavier exotic Crossbows (and it did 2D8!). So, yeah, dumb one on my part, as nobody would use that anyway. 1D12 isn't bad though, and if I remember right, the Bone Bow counted as a Composite Longbow for feat purposes like Weapon Focus, so it's not too shabby.
As said to Thomas Long, that was referring to 3.5, where two handers were king and archery was a very, very niche option. Also, TWF is crap.
Agreed there. Although 3.5 Archery was niche, it became incredibly strong later in the game.
Because the entire thing that I'm arguing is that Deadly Aim is absolutely not a problem.
You just admitted ranged was better than melee, and don't see a problem here with this feat attempting to bring it back closer? That's the part that doesn't make sense. I see no reason for ranged characters to get this when they already have so many other advantages.
|
|
Or take a level in Trickery Domain (or Fate Inquisition) Cleric or Inquisitor. Or Oracle with the Wod Mystery. All those make it one level, too.A 3 level dip is a big dip.It wouldn't need to be 3 levels if you have a 2nd level racial SLA.
Exactly, the point is that you don't need a big dip to benefit from this the way it is RAW.