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i go to work and come back to almost 2.5 times as many posts... keep up the good work.
Being able to cut through a mountain isn't magical. It is however awesome. And I would like my martials to be awesome.
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So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
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So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
Any class can craft magic items, as long as they take the relevant feat.
So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
You can do all of these things without class abilities, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.
Being able to cut through a mountain isn't magical. It is however awesome. And I would like my martials to be awesome.
I'd beg to differ on that. Cutting through a mountain is pretty darn magical, or supernatural, or godly. Awesome sure, but it is beyond what even a really good guy with a sword should be doing IMO.
I think you might want to define what magic means to you then. Because unless the martial decided to chant a mantra to the nine gods, or speak syllables in an alien tongue prior to cleaving through a mountain, there is 0 magic involved. And none of the fantasty people who have done that (oh yes, there are fantasy people who have done that) needed to do either of those things.
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You can do all of these things without class abilities, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
No you can't. Not without fiat. Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front.
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No you can't. Not without fiat. Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front.You can do all of these things without class abilities, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
Incorrect. Everybody works by fiat. If you're going to treat the game as "how can I do something that the GM can't say no to", you're gonna have a bad time. If you play the game as a cooperative effort with your GM and fellow players, you'll find that a lot of these problems just melt away.
I think you might want to define what magic means to you then. Because unless the martial decided to chant a mantra to the nine gods, or speak syllables in an alien tongue prior to cleaving through a mountain, there is 0 magic involved. And none of the fantasty people who have done that (oh yes, there are fantasy people who have done that) needed to do either of those things.
Which means that they perhaps used a different form of magic or supernatural help. Just because the author didn't spell out that they used magic doesn't mean that they didn't, or didn't have some other form of assistance.
Regardless, we circle back around to what defines what a martial character is and just how far they should be able to go, which I believe was talked about extensively in another thread. Some want mile jumping mountain cutters and others a little less than that.
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Actually, casters go "this is what I want to happen" . Good gm's look,at it in context of the campaign, apply what's necessary and say, "cool, this is how that plays out".
A reminder to players and gm's alike here. The core rules as written are setting neutral. When you plonk them into settings, the setting itself influences the core rules.
Many reasons why people believe casters are win comes down to DM empowering them.
A classic example is the hurricane effect above. You just dropped an unnatural weather effect over a large area. Innocent people, animals and plant life have now been destroyed. But you did take care of your own problem. Hope you're neutral evil. Now you have a group of Druids and rangers tracking you to mete out justice for the damage you did. Paladins heard of the tragic deaths of a group of pilgrims and their families through the unthoughtful use of a powerful spell, said Paladins are tracking you down to face judgement for your crimes. They're being assisted by high level clerics and a small band of mercenaries to maximise their chances.
Yes, your caster has changed the narrative. Now you're the BBEG. Great job.
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Incorrect. Everybody works by fiat. If you're going to treat the game as "how can I do something that the GM can't say no to", you're gonna have a bad time. If you play the game as a cooperative effort with your GM and fellow players, you'll find that a lot of these problems just melt away.No you can't. Not without fiat. Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front.You can do all of these things without class abilities, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
If everything in your game works via fiat, you aren't really playing a game. You are having a magical tea party (or playing cops and robbers if you prefer), which if you enjoy is fine, but a magical tea party is not a game. I prefer to play games where I can successfully determine that yes I *did* manage to shoot that robber, or that I successfully pored Fluttercups tea. No "Mother May I?" required. Which is another different game that people might enjoy.
if 'Plane Shift' doesn't work. i want it explained in the house rules pack that 'Plane Shift' doesn't work, however, the reason why, if it is integral to the plot, can be kept secret, as long as the house rule packet at the beginning of the campaign informs me that 'plane shift' doesn't work
the same could be said if every time i used power attack i took a point of constitution damage, i wouldn't have chosen it if i knew it would have damaged my constitution score on usage
generally, i need an explanation of any newly created or altered mechanics, a general description of the plot and setting, the character creation rules and a list of restrictions before i can make a character in the game. i don't require the plot reason why, i just require the house rules packet to list that the particular ability doesn't work the same as normal. if plane shift didn't work, people would know long before the plot point, because other high level wizards would have found out.
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I think you might want to define what magic means to you then. Because unless the martial decided to chant a mantra to the nine gods, or speak syllables in an alien tongue prior to cleaving through a mountain, there is 0 magic involved. And none of the fantasty people who have done that (oh yes, there are fantasy people who have done that) needed to do either of those things.Which means that they perhaps used a different form of magic or supernatural help. Just because the author didn't spell out that they used magic doesn't mean that they didn't, or didn't have some other form of assistance.
Regardless, we circle back around to what defines what a martial character is and just how far they should be able to go, which I believe was talked about extensively in another thread. Some want mile jumping mountain cutters and others a little less than that.
or you know, they're skilled or strong enough to cut a mountain in half.
I just want everyone to be the same weight class as everyone else. If a caster can make his own demiplane a martial should be able to cut a mountain in half. (martials tend to be 2, while full casters get to 4)
Wouldn't anybody just say, "Oh crud, my Plane Shift spell isn't doing what it usually does. Maybe that's a clue that something strange is going on. I should investigate?"
I'd make a Knowledge (Planes) check and expect to know with a decent investment in it. And I'd expect there to be an actual reason behind it. That can be identified. Say by a Knowledge (Planes) check.
Wouldn't anybody just say, "Oh crud, my Plane Shift spell isn't doing what it usually does. Maybe that's a clue that something strange is going on. I should investigate?"
not if you learned that spell expecting it to do X, why all of a sudden did it break? I mean how did I learn and use it if it doesn't actually do anything?
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I think this one has been answered in spades, and it seems to have touched a nerve or two.
My two cents -
At the first four to five levels martials stand out. They have a lot of hit points, strong BAB, and can do a respectable amount of damage. Mages tend to have limited resources, the spells are useful without being too worrisome if the player lacks high system mastery or creative in a devious way all the time. Those first levels don't touch the blatant shenanigans that is magic.
Past tenth level, mages can do things that can alter the whole face of the campaign. Plot hook not interesting enough? Any PC can leave, yet teleport means mage PCs can instantly leave any local consequences. Without a mage, PCs still have to walk or ride away from the plot (which might not be easy to do).
Wish, miracle, anti-magic field, simulacrum - all of those have a great deal of potential abuse without much creativity. At tenth level, most casters that have worked up to earn their XP at that point finds they have more than enough spell slots and creativity to handle a wide variety of situations.
Having a martial in the party is still useful, yet the GM doesn't have to radically change their plans because the martial PC has taken the "improved precise shot" feat or gained another iterative attack. When a caster can walk through walls, fly, mind control people, or make exact duplicates of themselves (or even simulacrum of a recurring opponent), the plot can be derailed severely - with almost no thought or effort. This isn't about a player trying to break a game on purpose either, just a side effect of such powerful abilities. Shudder to think what a player that likes to break campaigns would do with such powerful in game abilities!
I expect Knowledge (Planes) to let me know about Planar Magic. Because that's what Knowledge (Planes) says it does. Knowing about Planar Magic includes knowing *why* planar magic isn't working.
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I think you might want to define what magic means to you then. Because unless the martial decided to chant a mantra to the nine gods, or speak syllables in an alien tongue prior to cleaving through a mountain, there is 0 magic involved. And none of the fantasty people who have done that (oh yes, there are fantasy people who have done that) needed to do either of those things.Which means that they perhaps used a different form of magic or supernatural help. Just because the author didn't spell out that they used magic doesn't mean that they didn't, or didn't have some other form of assistance.
Regardless, we circle back around to what defines what a martial character is and just how far they should be able to go, which I believe was talked about extensively in another thread. Some want mile jumping mountain cutters and others a little less than that.
If doing anything extraordinary is considered magic, no matter if there is any actual magic involved or not, then Fighters, Rogues and all other non-caster classes should stop progressing at 5th level.
Fortunately, it's perfectly possible to create a story where characters can be extraordinary without any use of magic.
If everything in your game works via fiat, you aren't really playing a game. You are having a magical tea party (or playing cops and robbers if you prefer), which if you enjoy is fine, but a magical tea party is not a game. I...Incorrect. Everybody works by fiat. If you're going to treat the game as "how can I do something that the GM can't say no to", you're gonna have a bad time. If you play the game as a cooperative effort with your GM and fellow players, you'll find that a lot of these problems just melt away.No you can't. Not without fiat. Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front.You can do all of these things without class abilities, so I'm not sure what you're looking for.So what do you want? The Fighters to have magic abilities as part of their class? if you want a martial with magic powers, you've got Paladins and Rangers, if you want a bit more magic, you've got the Magi and Bloodragers. The Fighter exists for those people who want a class that is based solely on weapon skills and martial tactics.
They dont have to have 'magical' powers. They should however have comparable influence over the situation. For instance, one recommendation is the fighter having 'army buddies' or just plain an army. Or the rogue has a thieves guild. Both that grant the person access to power, resources and control over the story beyond what they can exact on their own.
Perhaps the fighter's tactical knowledge shows him a weak spot in the cavern ceiling allowing him to shoot it, and bring a rock down knocking the flying creature out of the sky.
But this would require dms being willing to let go of the control even when its not 'magic'.
D&D is, and always has been, magical tea party dressed up in a game costume.
If doing anything extraordinary is considered magic, no matter if there is any actual magic involved or not, then Fighters, Rogues and all other non-caster classes should stop progressing at 5th level.
Fortunately, it's perfectly possible to create a story where characters can be extraordinary without any use of magic.
I think the difference is where we begin and end the definition of extraordinary and magical, and where slicing through a mountain falls.
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D&D is, and always has been, magical tea party dressed up in a game costume.
Have you ever tried playing Pathfinder as a game? Because if you haven't there really isn't any room for further discussion on this subject, as some of us are playing a game and some of us aren't, which doesn't leave much to discuss. Unless you want to make another thread for one of those topics and we stick to the other one here.
I expect Knowledge (Planes) to let me know about Planar Magic. Because that's what Knowledge (Planes) says it does. Knowing about Planar Magic includes knowing *why* planar magic isn't working.I can see you don't have a lot of mysteries to solve in your games, because that's not how the skill works. Being "educated in a field of study" does not make you somehow magically aware of whatever it was that just happened.
I believe that "knowing about something" like say, why Plane Shift isn't working and "magically aware" are very different things. You have to put points into one and the other requires you to just ask the universe a series of questions...
Edit @ knightnday - Well normally it is on the "average day for a level 17 martial with a weapon scale". Right next to "ended a war by walking through it".
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Plane Shift is a spell. Knowing how spells work is either a knowledge Arcane check or a Spellcraft check. With a simple skill check, any caster should know if x spell works or not.
Those ARE the rules.
Now, WHY it's not working...that can be as complete a mystery as you like.
==Aelryinth
any 1st level commoner can say, "Screw this I'm going back to the tavern."
I concede that anyone can walk away from a plot hook. My point was about a group that had to travel into hostile terrain, or anger locals, or face some other situation that has consequences. Unless teleport is taken away by dimensional anchor effects or something similar (something that tends to happen in high level APs on occasion), teleport means that the mage can travel the next country over altogether.
In trouble with the law or thieves guild in the city? Going to the tavern won't get you out of trouble for long. Teleporting to the country next door gives you a massive head start.
That little trouble in the caves deep in the mountain looks less like a small tribe of orcs, and more like a hidden army? Anyone can leave, though you can be tracked and chased unless the mage just teleports the party hundreds of miles away.
My point wasn't that PCs could never leave, yet a GM might suddenly be left without any campaign with teleport, and the players don't even have to pack up their dice and go home! Their PCs just did that for them, in game! There's always consequences, yet teleport mitigates so many of them. And that's just one spell. One example.
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D&D is, and always has been, magical tea party dressed up in a game costume.Have you ever tried playing Pathfinder as a game? Because if you haven't there really isn't any room for further discussion on this subject, as some of us are playing a game and some of us aren't, which doesn't leave much to discuss. Unless you want to make another thread for one of those topics and we stick to the other one here.
Or I could roleplay and have fun pretending to go on epic adventures and you could be unnecessarily rude and alienate your fellow gamers. : /
i would say that knowledge(planes) can:
A. probably let you articulate what's wrong or at least should give bonuses to any investigation, as you can use it to figure out "what plane your on".
B. tell you some possible reasons it stopped working
C. probably at least give you some gist of what exactly is happening.
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I think the difference is where we begin and end the definition of extraordinary and magical, and where slicing through a mountain falls.If doing anything extraordinary is considered magic, no matter if there is any actual magic involved or not, then Fighters, Rogues and all other non-caster classes should stop progressing at 5th level.
Fortunately, it's perfectly possible to create a story where characters can be extraordinary without any use of magic.
I just don't think "stuff a normal human can't do in the real world" is a good definition of magic.
And here is the thing...
Every creature of CR X should have CR-appropriate abilities. If a Fighter and a Wizard of same level have the same CR (and the rules say they do), then their abilities should be similarly powerful.
If that's not the case, then they should not have the same CR.
So if a martial characters are always limited to doing what a a CR 5 creature can do, then their classes shouldn't go beyond 5th level.
Plane Shift is a spell. Knowing how spells work is either a knowledge Arcane check or a Spellcraft check. With a simple skill check, any caster should know if x spell works or not.
Those ARE the rules.
Now, WHY it's not working...that can be as complete a mystery as you like.
==Aelryinth
Wouldn't anybody just say, "Oh crud, my Plane Shift spell isn't doing what it usually does. Maybe that's a clue that something strange is going on. I should investigate?"
Nice to see some people get it.
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I'd make a Knowledge (Planes) check and expect to know with a decent investment in it. And I'd expect there to be an actual reason behind it. That can be identified. Say by a Knowledge (Planes) check.Wouldn't anybody just say, "Oh crud, my Plane Shift spell isn't doing what it usually does. Maybe that's a clue that something strange is going on. I should investigate?"
That doesn't sound like a reasonable expectation. Knowledge (Planes) would tell you that it should be working, but not what's happening this time. That require actual investigation, not just a die roll.
Outright getting the answer right away would be a bit much, but I would think that Knowledge (Planes) could provide some useful information. A few starting points for the investigation, at least.
"I don't know what caused the spell to fail, but X, Y, or Z could explain it..."
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if 'Plane Shift' doesn't work. i want it explained in the house rules pack that 'Plane Shift' doesn't work, however, the reason why, if it is integral to the plot, can be kept secret, as long as the house rule packet at the beginning of the campaign informs me that 'plane shift' doesn't work
the same could be said if every time i used power attack i took a point of constitution damage, i wouldn't have chosen it if i knew it would have damaged my constitution score on usage
generally, i need an explanation of any newly created or altered mechanics, a general description of the plot and setting, the character creation rules and a list of restrictions before i can make a character in the game. i don't require the plot reason why, i just require the house rules packet to list that the particular ability doesn't work the same as normal. if plane shift didn't work, people would know long before the plot point, because other high level wizards would have found out.
I agree with the general premise here, but not necessarily with the finding out about it. Your caster may not find out about Plane shift not working until they get to a high enough level to normally use it. If no one in the campaign world had ever shifted planes, no one would be aware it even existed to talk about it not being an option.
However, it is more than reasonable to expect a heads up on campaign influence before it mitigates your choice or build. Sometimes though, changes happen in the game that are unusual, and these prevent certain things working. In this case, no warning is coming your way, you may actually have to work it out.
cheers
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Or you could be unnecessarily rude. : /D&D is, and always has been, magical tea party dressed up in a game costume.Have you ever tried playing Pathfinder as a game? Because if you haven't there really isn't any room for further discussion on this subject, as some of us are playing a game and some of us aren't, which doesn't leave much to discuss. Unless you want to make another thread for one of those topics and we stick to the other one here.
Rude? I can't see how. You expressed that D&D is not a game and was magical tea party dressed up as a game. I play Pathfinder as a game and that is making discussion difficult. Therefore, I proposed a split in topics. That way those of who do not play it as a game and those of who do can discuss it in separate threads. Why do you find this rude?
Edit to match edit: Why does playing Pathfinder as a game alienate your fellow gamers?
any 1st level commoner can say, "Screw this I'm going back to the tavern."I concede that anyone can walk away from a plot hook. My point was about a group that had to travel into hostile terrain, or anger locals, or face some other situation that has consequences. Unless teleport is taken away by dimensional anchor effects or something similar (something that tends to happen in high level APs on occasion), teleport means that the mage can travel the next country over altogether.
In trouble with the law or thieves guild in the city? Going to the tavern won't get you out of trouble for long. Teleporting to the country next door gives you a massive head start.
That little trouble in the caves deep in the mountain looks less like a small tribe of orcs, and more like a hidden army? Anyone can leave, though you can be tracked and chased unless the mage just teleports the party hundreds of miles away.
My point wasn't that PCs could never leave, yet a GM might suddenly be left without any campaign with teleport, and the players don't even have to pack up their dice and go home! Their PCs just did that for them, in game! There's always consequences, yet teleport mitigates so many of them. And that's just one spell. One example.
That sure sounds like a boatload of fun right there.
Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front..Maybe that's the case, in the games that you play in or run, but casters in my games don't get to dictate answers to me when questions come up. Anyone who puts up RAW arguments for Sno-Cone wish machines or other such caster nonsense only gets those to fly with the fiat of a ridiculously accommodating GM.
So how do spells work in your campaigns if they don't follow the rules? Since by the rules spells do things. Things that tend to dramatically alter the narrative. One might (and I do) call these alterations "answers" when they resolve a problem.
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Martials play "Mother may I?" with the GM while casters get to say "This is what happens". to the GM. Notice that one of those is a question and the other is a statement. Which is the whole reason there's an imbalance. Especially on the narrative power front..Maybe that's the case, in the games that you play in or run, but casters in my games don't get to dictate answers to me when questions come up. Anyone who puts up RAW arguments for Sno-Cone wish machines or other such caster nonsense only gets those to fly with the fiat of a ridiculously accommodating GM.
That's like saying paintball guns are just as effective as real guns because the referee doesn't allow real guns to be used in the paintball tournament.
Real guns are still far more dangerous, you may not allowed to use them, but this doesn't make them any less effective.
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yeah, I think people here need to notice the difference between the game they play and the actual pathfinder rules. Just because a GM can make something not a problem doesn't mean it still shouldn't be fixed as part of the normal rules.
also, really want someone to reference my weight class question, which is basically why can't martials be the same weight class as casters?
Martial characters don't have to be limited to real-world ability. They can, however, be limited by the concepts their classes embody. A fighter can become an extraordinary combatant, but the class concept wasn't meant to encompass mountain-slicing or flash-stepping, so that's not on their class ability list. The wizard concept as envisioned by Paizo includes the potential to reshape reality within the bounds of their spell list and ability to cast, so that's what they can do. Ephemeral, non-quantifiable notions such as "narrative power" really only matter if you as a player feel that they do. The design team is not obligated to adhere to such standards, and, since not everybody thinks of narrative power as being an important standard at all, why should they?
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any 1st level commoner can say, "Screw this I'm going back to the tavern."I concede that anyone can walk away from a plot hook. My point was about a group that had to travel into hostile terrain, or anger locals, or face some other situation that has consequences. Unless teleport is taken away by dimensional anchor effects or something similar (something that tends to happen in high level APs on occasion), teleport means that the mage can travel the next country over altogether.
In trouble with the law or thieves guild in the city? Going to the tavern won't get you out of trouble for long. Teleporting to the country next door gives you a massive head start.
That little trouble in the caves deep in the mountain looks less like a small tribe of orcs, and more like a hidden army? Anyone can leave, though you can be tracked and chased unless the mage just teleports the party hundreds of miles away.
My point wasn't that PCs could never leave, yet a GM might suddenly be left without any campaign with teleport, and the players don't even have to pack up their dice and go home! Their PCs just did that for them, in game! There's always consequences, yet teleport mitigates so many of them. And that's just one spell. One example.
Teleport goes through the astral plane. Something in the astral plane could stop it, or maybe sense it and track them, or maybe between your current position and your target position is a wall of force and it just stops the spell working at all. The spell doesn't say how you get from point a to point b, and teleport effects in the general description under magic sections says through Astral plane. So it could very well be you travel the entire distance through Astral space quantum speed. Running into a wall of force at quantum speed tends to get messy, so the spell just fails as a built in protection.
Teleport is also messed up by high levels of natural and arane energy.
Turns out those caves with the army in it have massive levels of heat energy and free flowing lava, which the army is utelising for smelting weapons. Mage tried to teleport but the natural energies around them messed it up. DM can make this as simple as teleport failed or maybe adds it to the plot somehow.
The point is, Teleport can make games redundant if you let it. The best option is to let it work for the game and plan around it. Just cancelling it is really dispointing, as its a cool ability. But having it work out not exactly as the caster predicted can be cool and drive the plot into far more interesting ways.
Cheers
yeah, I think people here need to notice the difference between the game they play and the actual pathfinder rules. Just because a GM can make something not a problem doesn't mean it still shouldn't be fixed as part of the normal rules.
Yes, actually, it can mean exactly that.
also, really want someone to reference my weight class question, which is basically why can't martials be the same weight class as casters?
What makes this scale any better a system for evaluating classes than any other system? For that matter, what's the point of "tiering" classes at all?
I think the difference is where we begin and end the definition of extraordinary and magical, and where slicing through a mountain falls.If doing anything extraordinary is considered magic, no matter if there is any actual magic involved or not, then Fighters, Rogues and all other non-caster classes should stop progressing at 5th level.
Fortunately, it's perfectly possible to create a story where characters can be extraordinary without any use of magic.
I just don't think "stuff a normal human can't do in the real world" is a good definition of magic.
And here is the thing...
Every creature of CR X should have CR-appropriate abilities. If a Fighter and a Wizard of same level have the same CR (and the rules say they do), then their abilities should be similarly powerful.
If that's not the case, then they should not have the same CR.
So if a martial characters are always limited to doing what a a CR 5 creature can do, then their classes shouldn't go beyond 5th level.
Perhaps so, and I can certainly agree about the CR discrepancy. That said, I'm still not sold on giving even high level fighters abilities that seem more at home with mythics/demi gods and the like, not even if a story or movie or book showed a guy doing something like that and he must be Y level (in an opinion.)
I'm all for martials getting interesting and new abilities that allow them greater power at higher level; that said, you are getting what it says on the tin: wizards are guys who can manipulate reality and fighers are guys who fight. They aren't equivalent and I've never quite gotten the arguments behind them from the very beginning days of D&D or in other games (Shadowrun comes strongly to mind.) It isn't a real surprise that there will be places where the wizard excels, just like Superman is going to shine in far more instances than Green Arrow. We know that going in, and yet people still watch Arrow and so forth.
Sorry, losing track of what I was going to say next and not going to let the baby type just yet, so I'll trail off there. We're still arguing the same argument from the last twenty threads on this: people want changes to the fighter/martials, they want it NOW, and want Paizo to do it. Just house rule it and move on and have fun, I say.